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How many SAMAS/Shadowboys etc do you think Bandito arms found in there when they opened the place up? Was it just a few and they manufactured the rest or a large depot?

The book says they found four hangers of pre-rifts vehicles, of which the SAMAS were discribed only as "A few". it did however have the SAMAS prototype manufacturing facilities that could produce more as soon as they started it up.

Hm. I wonder how big the hangars were. If they were the size of the blimp hangars in the Tustin area, that's pretty frickin' big, and you could fit a thousand or more SAMAS sized vehicles in each one.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:Hm. I wonder how big the hangars were. If they were the size of the blimp hangars in the Tustin area, that's pretty frickin' big, and you could fit a thousand or more SAMAS sized vehicles in each one.

/Sub

I was wrong. it's 11 hangers, not 4, and they had 48 glitter boys as well. and they are sized for an army base of 22,000. Most of them were conventional NEMA vehicles, however. Area 51 was the secret proving grounds/testing facilities for new SAMAS types and other experimental weaponry, but of those 11 hangers, most were for typical uses/defense. these SAMAS were only prototypes, so they would not have full production runs yet.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Subjugator wrote:Hm. I wonder how big the hangars were. If they were the size of the blimp hangars in the Tustin area, that's pretty frickin' big, and you could fit a thousand or more SAMAS sized vehicles in each one.

/Sub

I was wrong. it's 11 hangers, not 4, and they had 48 glitter boys as well. and they are sized for an army base of 22,000. Most of them were conventional NEMA vehicles, however. Area 51 was the secret proving grounds/testing facilities for new SAMAS types and other experimental weaponry, but of those 11 hangers, most were for typical uses/defense. these SAMAS were only prototypes, so they would not have full production runs yet.

you mind backing those numbers up with a book, page, and paragraph citation?

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Subjugator wrote:Hm. I wonder how big the hangars were. If they were the size of the blimp hangars in the Tustin area, that's pretty frickin' big, and you could fit a thousand or more SAMAS sized vehicles in each one.

/Sub

I was wrong. it's 11 hangers, not 4, and they had 48 glitter boys as well. and they are sized for an army base of 22,000. Most of them were conventional NEMA vehicles, however. Area 51 was the secret proving grounds/testing facilities for new SAMAS types and other experimental weaponry, but of those 11 hangers, most were for typical uses/defense. these SAMAS were only prototypes, so they would not have full production runs yet.

you mind backing those numbers up with a book, page, and paragraph citation?

New West, bottom of page 22-23. just read the section marked "Bandito Arms: The Legacy of Area 51"

I think rifts black market may have more info on area 51 for more detail.

ok, i just didn't remember the area 51 part being that specific.. guess my memory slipped a touch.


as far as the size of the hangers.. i'd imagine they wouldn't be all that big. probably the same size as the above ground ones at groom lake and Edwards Air Force Base that exists today. those are big enough to park a single C-5 in, or a number of smaller craft.

note however that edwards is a major airbase, and groom lake is where the air force tests their classified stuff. it was originally built with help from lockheed and the CIA to test the U-2 Dragonlady, and later the A-12/SR-71 Blackbird, the F-117 nighthawk, the B-2 Spirit and more recently the YF-22 Raptor, YF-23 blackwidow, the YF-35 Lightning II JSF.. and who knows what other unreported test vehicles. it was also where the airforce evaluated captured enemy aircraft, liek the MiG-15, the MiG-17, the Mig-21, the MiG-23. (later these test programs were moved to Tonopah in nevada.. mostly because they were being reorganized into the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron used for air combat training.)

note that groomlake has never actually been classified.. (despite claims to the contrary by conspiracy theorists). the base has never been denied to exist, it was built with outside contracting, and no one has ever made an attempt to hide what it is for. the only thing that is classified is what it is working on at any given time, and the stuff related to that. which is not all that surprising, given they're the place that tests all the new aircraft designs. (connections to UFo's probably came from all the odd 'black project' planes they once had.. the SR-71 was smaller on radar than it looks, and streaked across the sky at mach3+. the F-117 was invisible to radar, but not the naked eye.. you had high manuverbility prototypes of the F-15 and f-16 tested using things liek canards and thrust vectoring.. they could practically turn on a dime in mid air. and all looked very odd as aircraft. so not surprising there are rumors of strange 'alien' aircraft that are invisible to radar, hyper fast, or inhumanly agile, no?)

WTH I'm glad I didn't read too into that. The US Gov isn't going to hand over Groomlake to a multinational agency. The USAF and Lockheed/Boeing would have something to say about it too. Hanger sizes vary based on purpose. Most of the armies are small on comparison to the USAFs. Granted the AFs hardened Alert fighter shelters are pretty small. That being said, hangers on a secret test facility are going to be oversized to provide disinformation for recon photos. Likely also needs to be large enough for at least a C5 to park and unload but may also be even bigger so something like a B377PG Super Guppy can fit in and unload or something like an SCA with test aircraft can be loaded or unloaded.

Zer0 Kay wrote:WTH I'm glad I didn't read too into that. The US Gov isn't going to hand over Groomlake to a multinational agency. The USAF and Lockheed/Boeing would have something to say about it too. Hanger sizes vary based on purpose. Most of the armies are small on comparison to the USAFs. Granted the AFs hardened Alert fighter shelters are pretty small. That being said, hangers on a secret test facility are going to be oversized to provide disinformation for recon photos. Likely also needs to be large enough for at least a C5 to park and unload but may also be even bigger so something like a B377PG Super Guppy can fit in and unload or something like an SCA with test aircraft can be loaded or unloaded.

Considering that in this universe the US handed over most of our sovereignty to this NEMA already.....yah....
Just chant the mantra 'divergent parallel' while reading it and you will be fine

Zer0 Kay wrote:WTH I'm glad I didn't read too into that. The US Gov isn't going to hand over Groomlake to a multinational agency. The USAF and Lockheed/Boeing would have something to say about it too. Hanger sizes vary based on purpose. Most of the armies are small on comparison to the USAFs. Granted the AFs hardened Alert fighter shelters are pretty small. That being said, hangers on a secret test facility are going to be oversized to provide disinformation for recon photos. Likely also needs to be large enough for at least a C5 to park and unload but may also be even bigger so something like a B377PG Super Guppy can fit in and unload or something like an SCA with test aircraft can be loaded or unloaded.

They did though in cannon There were no more boarders, a single economy and central bank and currency, and a single legal system, laws and regulatory agencies. and NEMA was a single military and law enforcement agency with jurisdiction in all three and an agent in one country had full authority in all three and could come and go as they pleased. the USA no longer HAD an independant military, period. NEMA absorbed it as one organ of itself.

Basically, the USA, Canada and Mexico merged into a single nation in all but name and NEMA essentially was the combinied military, intelligence and federal law enforcement agencies of all three combined into one. You can say that's unrealistic, but it's littearlly the key point of the golden age--that north america became a single, unified, big happy family.

actually keep in mind.. the USA, canada, and mexico were the "northe American alliance" in CE, basically a European union type deal. three nations, united under a common banner.
and NEMA was just an intel/peacekeeping organization.

NEMA was also divided up into national commands.. you had canadian NEMA, US NEMA, and Mexican NEMA. they each had their own subvariants of the gear, their own command structure, etc. odds are they would only report within their own country, and the consolidation of the various national agencies and renaming them to NEMA was done to make it easier to coordinate each nation's different set ups when they have to.

i doubt very much that a US base would have mexican or canadian NEMA troops.

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually keep in mind.. the USA, canada, and mexico were the "northern Eagle alliance" in CE, basically a European union type deal. threee nations, united under a common banner.
and NEMA was just an intel/peacekeeping organization.

NEMA was also divided up into national commands.. you had canadian NEMA, US NEMA, and Mexican NEMA. they each had their own subvariants of the gear, their own command structure, etc. odds are they would only report within their own country, and the consolidation of the various national agencies and renaming them to NEMA was done to make it easier to coordinate each nation's different set ups when they have to.

i doubt very much that a US base would have mexican or canadian NEMA troops.

Chaos Earth page 9. the NEMA pact had six points, specifically eliminating borders in all but name, universal regulations, laws and mesures, a single currency and the creation of NEMA. it also says that agents while assigned to one could move freely between national borders "with impunity" just under it.

Yes, "offically" they remained seperate nations. but with only one currency, one set of laws and one military, well, that's the very definition of "united in all but name".

eliakon wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:WTH I'm glad I didn't read too into that. The US Gov isn't going to hand over Groomlake to a multinational agency. The USAF and Lockheed/Boeing would have something to say about it too. Hanger sizes vary based on purpose. Most of the armies are small on comparison to the USAFs. Granted the AFs hardened Alert fighter shelters are pretty small. That being said, hangers on a secret test facility are going to be oversized to provide disinformation for recon photos. Likely also needs to be large enough for at least a C5 to park and unload but may also be even bigger so something like a B377PG Super Guppy can fit in and unload or something like an SCA with test aircraft can be loaded or unloaded.

Considering that in this universe the US handed over most of our sovereignty to this NEMA already.....yah....
Just chant the mantra 'divergent parallel' while reading it and you will be fine

Then why isn't the USS Ticonderoga the NS Ticonderoga?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:WTH I'm glad I didn't read too into that. The US Gov isn't going to hand over Groomlake to a multinational agency. The USAF and Lockheed/Boeing would have something to say about it too. Hanger sizes vary based on purpose. Most of the armies are small on comparison to the USAFs. Granted the AFs hardened Alert fighter shelters are pretty small. That being said, hangers on a secret test facility are going to be oversized to provide disinformation for recon photos. Likely also needs to be large enough for at least a C5 to park and unload but may also be even bigger so something like a B377PG Super Guppy can fit in and unload or something like an SCA with test aircraft can be loaded or unloaded.

They did though in cannon There were no more boarders, a single economy and central bank and currency, and a single legal system, laws and regulatory agencies. and NEMA was a single military and law enforcement agency with jurisdiction in all three and an agent in one country had full authority in all three and could come and go as they pleased. the USA no longer HAD an independant military, period. NEMA absorbed it as one organ of itself.

Basically, the USA, Canada and Mexico merged into a single nation in all but name and NEMA essentially was the combinied military, intelligence and federal law enforcement agencies of all three combined into one. You can say that's unrealistic, but it's littearlly the key point of the golden age--that north america became a single, unified, big happy family.

And again I offer the US Navy's Ticonderoga. Not the NEMA Navy. As well as US Army and Airforce Variants of the SAMAS.

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually keep in mind.. the USA, canada, and mexico were the "northern Eagle alliance" in CE, basically a European union type deal. threee nations, united under a common banner.
and NEMA was just an intel/peacekeeping organization.

NEMA was also divided up into national commands.. you had canadian NEMA, US NEMA, and Mexican NEMA. they each had their own subvariants of the gear, their own command structure, etc. odds are they would only report within their own country, and the consolidation of the various national agencies and renaming them to NEMA was done to make it easier to coordinate each nation's different set ups when they have to.

i doubt very much that a US base would have mexican or canadian NEMA troops.

So you'd then be surprised that all NORAD designated facilities are occupied by U.S. And Canada troops?

Zer0 Kay wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:WTH I'm glad I didn't read too into that. The US Gov isn't going to hand over Groomlake to a multinational agency. The USAF and Lockheed/Boeing would have something to say about it too. Hanger sizes vary based on purpose. Most of the armies are small on comparison to the USAFs. Granted the AFs hardened Alert fighter shelters are pretty small. That being said, hangers on a secret test facility are going to be oversized to provide disinformation for recon photos. Likely also needs to be large enough for at least a C5 to park and unload but may also be even bigger so something like a B377PG Super Guppy can fit in and unload or something like an SCA with test aircraft can be loaded or unloaded.

Considering that in this universe the US handed over most of our sovereignty to this NEMA already.....yah....
Just chant the mantra 'divergent parallel' while reading it and you will be fine

Then why isn't the USS Ticonderoga the NS Ticonderoga?

Because Underseas was written in 1993/1994 and Chaos Earth/NEMA wasn't invneted until 2002-2003? it's called a retcon.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually keep in mind.. the USA, canada, and mexico were the "northern Eagle alliance" in CE, basically a European union type deal. threee nations, united under a common banner.
and NEMA was just an intel/peacekeeping organization.

NEMA was also divided up into national commands.. you had canadian NEMA, US NEMA, and Mexican NEMA. they each had their own subvariants of the gear, their own command structure, etc. odds are they would only report within their own country, and the consolidation of the various national agencies and renaming them to NEMA was done to make it easier to coordinate each nation's different set ups when they have to.

i doubt very much that a US base would have mexican or canadian NEMA troops.

So you'd then be surprised that all NORAD designated facilities are occupied by U.S. And Canada troops?

No? Why would I be. they can move with impunity. most are still assigned to their origional facilities anyway. Equal on paper dosn't mean equal in practice.

Damn double post

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually keep in mind.. the USA, canada, and mexico were the "northern Eagle alliance" in CE, basically a European union type deal. threee nations, united under a common banner.
and NEMA was just an intel/peacekeeping organization.

NEMA was also divided up into national commands.. you had canadian NEMA, US NEMA, and Mexican NEMA. they each had their own subvariants of the gear, their own command structure, etc. odds are they would only report within their own country, and the consolidation of the various national agencies and renaming them to NEMA was done to make it easier to coordinate each nation's different set ups when they have to.

i doubt very much that a US base would have mexican or canadian NEMA troops.

So you'd then be surprised that all NORAD designated facilities are occupied by U.S. And Canada troops?

No? Why would I be. they can move with impunity. most are still assigned to their origional facilities anyway. Equal on paper dosn't mean equal in practice.

UH... I was talking Ta GB. You were saying the same thing as me as far as the alliance

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually keep in mind.. the USA, canada, and mexico were the "northern Eagle alliance" in CE, basically a European union type deal. threee nations, united under a common banner.
and NEMA was just an intel/peacekeeping organization.

NEMA was also divided up into national commands.. you had canadian NEMA, US NEMA, and Mexican NEMA. they each had their own subvariants of the gear, their own command structure, etc. odds are they would only report within their own country, and the consolidation of the various national agencies and renaming them to NEMA was done to make it easier to coordinate each nation's different set ups when they have to.

i doubt very much that a US base would have mexican or canadian NEMA troops.

So you'd then be surprised that all NORAD designated facilities are occupied by U.S. And Canada troops?

No? Why would I be. they can move with impunity. most are still assigned to their origional facilities anyway. Equal on paper dosn't mean equal in practice.

UH... I was talking Ta GB. You were saying the same thing as me as far as the alliance

Doh! sorry!

Chaos Earth, pg9: the North American Alliance is the political entirty that formed and opened up the border and so on.
but lets look at what it is?
open nation borders
economic parity efforts
sharing of ideas
open trade and standardized laws
common currency

right there, that sounds a lot like the European union. albeit a bit more extensive in the laws area. (which given the governments are still soverign, means that it's going to be more a case of allowing precedents from one nation to apply in the others.)

notice that it doesn't say the invidual government are gone. so the USa is still the USA, mexico is still mexico. just like how Germany still exists as a soverign nation under the EU.

nor does it say they merged militaries. as allies they'd certainly work a bit closer, but canadian military forces are still canadian, and a canadian officer could not command a US force, or vice versa. at best they'd do like the EU/NATO is doing and work out a "this group should train with this other group often" set up, like the Battlegroup's

what else did it create? the Northern Eagle military alliance. (also pg9, 2nd column)
"an elite police paramilitary agency with jurisdiction in all three allied nations" "NEMA had its own army and agents" "NEMA incorporated an equal number of agents from each of the allied nations and functioned like a sort of trinational FBI, CIA, and NSA rolled into one"

so no, there was no retcon. the USA and the US military (army, Airforce, navy, and Marines) still existed. NEMA was it's own thing, a sort of super intelligence agency with it's own military force. the armed forces of NEMA are equivilent to the FBi's Hostage rescue team, and the CIA's Special Activities Division rolled into one. with a mandate for Homeland Defense. (anti-terror, protecting infrastrucutre, identifying threats, etc.)

it's all right there in the book, and later books back this up. they didn't absorb the army, navy, or the rest. the national militaries didn't even merge. all that happened was when the three nations agreed to become close allies, they created a new intelligence agency, albeit one that had more (legal) teeth to it than any before.

edit: the closest well known example to what NEMA is described as is SHIELD from the marvel films.. an american intelligence agency, an ational defense and security mandate, with international reach, it's own private high tech army, and a lot of secrecy in its operations.

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually keep in mind.. the USA, canada, and mexico were the "northern Eagle alliance" in CE, basically a European union type deal. threee nations, united under a common banner.
and NEMA was just an intel/peacekeeping organization.

The USA was originally supposed to be a European Union type deal. Each state was to be a separate country, and we were to be bound by a single military, some basic guarantees of rights, and some other stuff. Now look where we are.

/Sub

thank the rpeblicans and other tyrants like Lincoln for it...

glitterboy2098 wrote:Chaos Earth, pg9: the North American Alliance is the political entirty that formed and opened up the border and so on.
but lets look at what it is?
open nation borders
economic parity efforts
sharing of ideas
open trade and standardized laws
common currency

right there, that sounds a lot like the European union. albeit a bit more extensive in the laws area. (which given the governments are still soverign, means that it's going to be more a case of allowing precedents from one nation to apply in the others.)

notice that it doesn't say the invidual government are gone. so the USa is still the USA, mexico is still mexico. just like how Germany still exists as a soverign nation under the EU.

nor does it say they merged militaries. as allies they'd certainly work a bit closer, but canadian military forces are still canadian, and a canadian officer could not command a US force, or vice versa. at best they'd do like the EU/NATO is doing and work out a "this group should train with this other group often" set up, like the Battlegroup's

what else did it create? the Northern Eagle military alliance. (also pg9, 2nd column)
"an elite police paramilitary agency with jurisdiction in all three allied nations" "NEMA had its own army and agents" "NEMA incorporated an equal number of agents from each of the allied nations and functioned like a sort of trinational FBI, CIA, and NSA rolled into one"

so no, there was no retcon. the USA and the US military (army, Airforce, navy, and Marines) still existed. NEMA was it's own thing, a sort of super intelligence agency with it's own military force. the armed forces of NEMA are equivilent to the FBi's Hostage rescue team, and the CIA's Special Activities Division rolled into one. with a mandate for Homeland Defense. (anti-terror, protecting infrastrucutre, identifying threats, etc.)

it's all right there in the book, and later books back this up. they didn't absorb the army, navy, or the rest. the national militaries didn't even merge. all that happened was when the three nations agreed to become close allies, they created a new intelligence agency, albeit one that had more (legal) teeth to it than any before.

edit: the closest well known example to what NEMA is described as is SHIELD from the marvel films.. an american intelligence agency, an ational defense and security mandate, with international reach, it's own private high tech army, and a lot of secrecy in its operations.

I agree. If there was no NEA then NEMA would be like NORAD extended into Mexico but closer in capability and jurisdiction to G.I. Joe.