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Deific prototypical powers, are able to be performed via utilizing Greater Demons, as per the book.

My question is as follows, why would you EVER use your own forces, for such things, and can Demon lords, kidnap greater Deevils and use them in the same manner ? (Rather then using / depleting their own forces of the very valuable greater demons ?)

Lenwen wrote:Deific prototypical powers, are able to be performed via utilizing Greater Demons, as per the book.

My question is as follows, why would you EVER use your own forces, for such things, and can Demon lords, kidnap greater Deevils and use them in the same manner ? (Rather then using / depleting their own forces of the very valuable greater demons ?)

because demons disposing of their own minions for power is kind of a trope? That's sort of it, really.
And no, nothing suggests it works on deevils. they are metaphysically different.

There is in fact a line saying that it involves asking the demons to 'lend their power to the invocation' ... suggesting that it has to be done with the demons consent (tricked or otherwise).....something I find unlikely to be possible for a Deevil lord to accomplish.

Lenwen wrote:why would you EVER use your own forces, for such things

It may be tactically advantageous. If you can sacrifice a couple Greater Demons to kill dozens of Greater Dyvalians for example.

Lenwen wrote:can Demon lords, kidnap greater Deevils and use them in the same manner ? (Rather then using / depleting their own forces of the very valuable greater demons ?)

I figure no. Possibly they might figure out how to do that given more time and research but at present, considering they haven't figured out how to do the sacrifice with some kinds of Greater Demons (the Gallu or the Night Owl) it's not reasonable to expect they would've figured out how to do it with any Greater Dyvalians yet.

eliakon wrote:it involves asking the demons to 'lend their power to the invocation' ... suggesting that it has to be done with the demons consent (tricked or otherwise).....something I find unlikely to be possible for a Deevil lord to accomplish.

This tactic was used to sacrifice Raksasha who are more intelligent than many kinds of Greater Deevil, so I don't think that's it.

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:it involves asking the demons to 'lend their power to the invocation' ... suggesting that it has to be done with the demons consent (tricked or otherwise).....something I find unlikely to be possible for a Deevil lord to accomplish.

This tactic was used to sacrifice Raksasha who are more intelligent than many kinds of Greater Deevil, so I don't think that's it.

I don't see anything that suggests that Rakshasa are immune to flatery, bribery, or trickery......
And to be honest it reeks of the demon way....you sign on the dotted line and agree to something.....you just find out you were agreeing to something different than what you thought you were agreeing to.

My point is that while Raksasha are not immune, they are very intelligent creatures I think the match of any Deevil so if they can fall prey to trickery, a Deevil is game. They are not immune to being bullied while captured.

The whole 'lend your power' thing is also I think just cited as being observed in the initial experiments when Death Demons were born, do we know if co-operation is mandatory with the final version achieved in D+G?

Tor wrote:My point is that while Raksasha are not immune, they are very intelligent creatures I think the match of any Deevil so if they can fall prey to trickery, a Deevil is game. They are not immune to being bullied while captured.

The whole 'lend your power' thing is also I think just cited as being observed in the initial experiments when Death Demons were born, do we know if co-operation is mandatory with the final version achieved in D+G?

I think the POINT is you can use a tactical advantage to harm an enemy AND remove several threats to the security of your power. If I was a demon I would certainly do this. The Raksasha are some of the most powerful, intelligent and devious of the greater demons. Yup…cannon fodder so I don’t feel threatened.

They also seem to be the first to catch on, Abdul-Ra isn't going to let that happen anymore.

It seems like the Jinn are the next closest to catching on but are idiots because unlike the Raksasha leader (who genuinely wants to protect them) they run to Charun who stills burns them.

I'm surprised the Locusts haven't caught on... although using them is probably rare, since they are so useful. Nobody else is going to want to mess with Modeus' boys and Modeus doesn't want to alienate his main base.

I'd probably stick to burning Magots since they seem the dumbest, although they're strong and easier to control so eliminating rivals is good.

"You have disappointed me, lend your energies to this ritual to show me you are still dedicated"

A lot of the trickery is, "Hey, lend some... PPE.... to this spell I'm doing, which kills a whole ton of Dyvals." Leaving out the "and you die" part ^^

Not that killing subordinates is the dealbreaker for them that it'd be for us. Most just wouldn't want it to happen to them.


It also strikes me as an example how, long-run, the powers of hell are likely to decline. They'll burn up their own forces, permanently, to beat their enemies, and if it's possible to get new greater demons at all, it can't be easy. Sure, there's a lot now, but...

I think we should say the 'Powers of Hades' since Dyval is also caleld Hell Not to mention Hel being a Dyval Lord and another Hel being a Norse Death-Goddess...

Almost want to say "Powers of the Hades Nether Realm" to avoid confusion with the god

Tor wrote:I think we should say the 'Powers of Hades' since Dyval is also caleld Hell Not to mention Hel being a Dyval Lord and another Hel being a Norse Death-Goddess...

Almost want to say "Powers of the Hades Nether Realm" to avoid confusion with the god

I think *both* powers of Hell are willing to do this kind of short-to-medium term thinking against each other, and ultimately end up in decline.

More than likely, the result of the Minion War is the powers of both are reduced. A worst case where one conquers the other cleanly means that one is strengthened (what with many of the other side that'll be made into servants, and a second dimension under them), but the total number of hell types, of course, is down. Unless the minion war really drags out, in which case even if there's a clear winner they could end up fairly rough.

And temporarily at least, a ton of the hellish populations are going to be reduced-strength abominations.

Except for the many lesser demons/devils who will become Greater Demons when they are infected by the plaque and become Death Demons... the next big threat.

Tor wrote:They also seem to be the first to catch on, Abdul-Ra isn't going to let that happen anymore.

It seems like the Jinn are the next closest to catching on but are idiots because unlike the Raksasha leader (who genuinely wants to protect them) they run to Charun who stills burns them.

I'm surprised the Locusts haven't caught on... although using them is probably rare, since they are so useful. Nobody else is going to want to mess with Modeus' boys and Modeus doesn't want to alienate his main base.

I'd probably stick to burning Magots since they seem the dumbest, although they're strong and easier to control so eliminating rivals is good.

"You have disappointed me, lend your energies to this ritual to show me you are still dedicated"

Remeber the vast majority of demon locusts are in hibernation until Modeus calls for them to awaken, and he only awakens them if he has to and no more than he has to (Modeus is saving armies of millions of them as an ace card for major wars of the gods, which means they will probablly make a showing before the minion war is out). I figure demon locuts are the most common simply because it would be trivial for a demon lord to grab a hibernating one and sacrafise it before it wakes up.

That bit about participating in a ritual makes me wonder whether you could do it to one who's sleeping though. What if they need to consent to participate (albeit not informed consent since you can trick them) ?

Plus I doubt the other demon lords would want to trifle with Modeus by sacrificing his boys, that could get you in trouble.

Tor wrote:That bit about participating in a ritual makes me wonder whether you could do it to one who's sleeping though. What if they need to consent to participate (albeit not informed consent since you can trick them) ?

Plus I doubt the other demon lords would want to trifle with Modeus by sacrificing his boys, that could get you in trouble.

I just re-read the section in dragons and gods, there is nothing about particpation. In fact it dosn't even mention a ritual. it simply says that the greater demon must be sacrafised. that's it. willing or not isn't a factor.

Tor wrote:Except for the many lesser demons/devils who will become Greater Demons when they are infected by the plaque and become Death Demons... the next big threat.

Maybe, but while that ups power in many cases, and has the danger of spread, they're also of middling intelligence and driven mad by pain, making them a lot less organized threat.

Right about D+G, am basing the ritual thing on DB10/Hades page 187. It mentions the sacrifice being 'in some kind of ritual'. Course that was 'several millenia' ago so in the centuries between they could've streamlined the sacrifice so it could be instant and not require a prep ritual.

I'd think it's a significant enough ritual that it'd never be too quick, though it probably has been streamlined a little.

Tor wrote:Right about D+G, am basing the ritual thing on DB10/Hades page 187. It mentions the sacrifice being 'in some kind of ritual'. Course that was 'several millenia' ago so in the centuries between they could've streamlined the sacrifice so it could be instant and not require a prep ritual.

*checks*

Reading again, it dosn't say they are rituals. they heard rumors of a ritual, but reading it out it seems those rumors were in error by what was actually found. Succcor Bemoth was doing experiments abdul-ra heard rumors of some kind of ritual, but in fact, they were "Automatic processes" that could not be interupted, even when he tried, it failed and proceeded without further attention or any way to stop it. Rituals by definition require constant attention and can be interupted. So actually the thing you cite on page 187 indicates it's NOT a ritual; It's an automatic process that is unstoppable once it begins--and it was still in the experimental phase at this time, not even done yet. The question is really just how much they were able to speed up the process. Once it begins, it can't be interupted, but prehaps it still takes time. does it take all night? an hour? a melee round? Of course, sinse you can't interupt it no matter how much time it takes, you're only options are either to run out of range so you can't be targeted or try to kill the demon lord before it goes off (which wouldn't save the doomed demons, apparently, but would stop the now-dead demon lord from doing anything with it)

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tor wrote:Right about D+G, am basing the ritual thing on DB10/Hades page 187. It mentions the sacrifice being 'in some kind of ritual'. Course that was 'several millenia' ago so in the centuries between they could've streamlined the sacrifice so it could be instant and not require a prep ritual.

*checks*

Reading again, it dosn't say they are rituals. they heard rumors of a ritual, but reading it out it seems those rumors were in error by what was actually found. Succcor Bemoth was doing experiments abdul-ra heard rumors of some kind of ritual, but in fact, they were "Automatic processes" that could not be interupted, even when he tried, it failed and proceeded without further attention or any way to stop it. Rituals by definition require constant attention and can be interupted. So actually the thing you cite on page 187 indicates it's NOT a ritual; It's an automatic process that is unstoppable once it begins--and it was still in the experimental phase at this time, not even done yet. The question is really just how much they were able to speed up the process. Once it begins, it can't be interupted, but prehaps it still takes time. does it take all night? an hour? a melee round? Of course, sinse you can't interupt it no matter how much time it takes, you're only options are either to run out of range so you can't be targeted or try to kill the demon lord before it goes off (which wouldn't save the doomed demons, apparently, but would stop the now-dead demon lord from doing anything with it)

Not to mention the whole thing can affect other demons that werent supposed to be used but were close enough at the wrong place and wrong time, being twisted in completely different beings, like the Rakshasa who became the first of Death Demons and their patron, Prince Ba'Zal.