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Seraphs are creatures of supernatural good, that get a Fire-Sword ability that deals "8D6 damage [in this case, HP or MD] to supernatural evil." Vampires are creatures of supernatural evil, who are resistant to magic fire.

Would the magic resistance of the Vampire make it only take half damage (4D6, which is the amount dealt to mortals) from the Seraph's sword, or would the Seraph have some sort of magic that circumvented this?

Also, how does a Vampire, as a supernatural creature, still have hit-points?

Raze_7 wrote:Seraphs are creatures of supernatural good, that get a Fire-Sword ability that deals "8D6 damage [in this case, HP or MD] to supernatural evil." Vampires are creatures of supernatural evil, who are resistant to magic fire.

Would the magic resistance of the Vampire make it only take half damage (4D6, which is the amount dealt to mortals) from the Seraph's sword, or would the Seraph have some sort of magic that circumvented this?

Also, how does a Vampire, as a supernatural creature, still have hit-points?

1 = Damage is reduced unless the attacker's ability specifically mentions that it overrides the defender's immunity (For example, vampires are immune to tech-based energy attacks, but are harmed by phase weapons).

2 = Any successful MD attack gets converted to straight HP when dealing damage to vampires. Why this happens is something you'll need to ask KS.

either the fire would affect them as normal (unlikely) or the seraf gets supernatural strength punch damage, which does hurt vampires, since the seraph is a supernatural critter itself.

but if anyone has more specific info, trust them instead.

Raze_7 wrote:Seraphs are creatures of supernatural good, that get a Fire-Sword ability that deals "8D6 damage [in this case, HP or MD] to supernatural evil." Vampires are creatures of supernatural evil, who are resistant to magic fire.

Would the magic resistance of the Vampire make it only take half damage (4D6, which is the amount dealt to mortals) from the Seraph's sword, or would the Seraph have some sort of magic that circumvented this?

Also, how does a Vampire, as a supernatural creature, still have hit-points?

Holy Skimming thru the info given in the Revised VK book only makes it clear that the answer is NOT clear!

However, although most types of magic and most magic weapons only inflict 1/2 damage, if the Seraph's fire sword is listed as a "Natural Ability" and not under either "Magic," or "Equipment," I'd personally rule it as an extension of themselves, and therefore it would inflict full damage (as per a supernatural being).

Also, if the Seraph's write-up says that the fire-sword does, "8D6 damage to supernatural evil," then I would go with that as vampires clearly count as supernatural evil.

As for supernatural PS (or PS bonuses to SDC), unless there is some indication the sword has a physical base surrounded by flame, I would go with it being an energy weapon and only have the 4d6 HP.

The sword is listed under 'natural abilities'.

That said: I would question whether this weapon damages vampires at all, if it is not magic.

Having the natural ability to create flaming sword doesn't make the flaming sword itself a natural attack from a creature of magic capable of harming a vampire.

The whole reason dragon breath weapons could harm vampires (though oddly it is a fixed damage for all species not based on the original amount) is because they are magical in nature.

If we consider the flaming sword a 'magic weapon' rather than a 'MD magical energy attack' then it could do full damage to HP rather than half.

But as pointed out... we are not explicitly told it is magical, so it may just be mundane flame.

Seraph have the ability to make Psi-Swords, which can harm vampires, I see no trouble in forcing them to resort to that if they want to damage them. Flaming swords are just a tad too convenient IMO.

With Seraphs being holy in nature it kind of extends the quandary of how to handle this particular conundrum.

So.....tough call, but i think i would rule in favor of the 8D6. Holy fire burns a hell of a lot.

I would, personally, say that since it says 'damage to evil supernatural creatures' that it does, in fact do 8d6 to evil supernatural creatures. Thus if the vampire in question is evil, it will take the 8d6. If the vampire is not evil.....well that's a bit of a grey area. I would, personally say it takes half damage if its not evil, but that's just me speaking House Rule there.

Doing enhanced damage to a certain target does not mean the enhanced damage bypasses an immunity to it. Vampires are immune to non-magical fire and this is not explicitly magical.

At best you could use this after staking them to burn the body in separate pyres.

Tor wrote:Doing enhanced damage to a certain target does not mean the enhanced damage bypasses an immunity to it. Vampires are immune to non-magical fire and this is not explicitly magical.

At best you could use this after staking them to burn the body in separate pyres.

I would say that it does bypass it though. Its a supernatural attack in and of itself (If it does special damage to supernatural evil then it cant be 'normal' flame) So I would say that it is just as supernatural as if the seraph had punched the vampire.

We don't know if it's a supernatural attack, it's of an undefined nature. For all we know the damage to supernaturals is the base damage and the reduced damage to mortals is the unique feature. I guess it's okay to house-rule it hurts them but RAW I don't see anything explicit about that.

Even then, some vamps might start carrying around Impervious to Fire Talismans (it protects clothes and armor, useful) which should deal with it.

Tor wrote:We don't know if it's a supernatural attack, it's of an undefined nature. For all we know the damage to supernaturals is the base damage and the reduced damage to mortals is the unique feature. I guess it's okay to house-rule it hurts them but RAW I don't see anything explicit about that.

Even then, some vamps might start carrying around Impervious to Fire Talismans (it protects clothes and armor, useful) which should deal with it.

If it reduces its damage to mortals.....then its STILL not normal fire is it. I mean I would say that by definition conjured fire that does different damage to mortals and supernatural evil is pretty much a text book case of 'supernatural'.

Vampires are especially susceptible to damage from creatures of light ( AKA Holy in other games) i would rule that it does.

Which book are the Seraph in again?

They were originally in Conversion Book 1 however the ability to create a fire sword wasn't added until their printing in Dragons and Gods.

Where does it talk about creatures of light hurting vampires? In what context does it specify that? If a Seraph fired a shotgun, would that hurt a vampire?

Tor wrote:They were originally in Conversion Book 1 however the ability to create a fire sword wasn't added until their printing in Dragons and Gods.

Where does it talk about creatures of light hurting vampires? In what context does it specify that? If a Seraph fired a shotgun, would that hurt a vampire?

There has always been a difference between a supernatural creatures personal attacks and using a weapon.
The Seraph would no more hurt the vampire with its shotgun than a dragon would. The fact that it wouldn't (just like nothing else in the game except Sea Inquisitors and Apoks would) is just a red herring.
What is relevant is the question of 'would the flame sword hurt a vampire'.
And the logic behind the sword doing full damage is pretty easy
1) Angles do full damage with their physical attacks
2) Magic demon slaying weapons (and the like) do full damage
3) the sword is described as a magic flaming sword that is basically a 4d6 sword that does double damage to creatures of supernatural evil
4) the sword is a physical attack by a magic weapon that is designed specifically to harm supernatural evil such as vampires

Therefore the vampire takes full damage from the sword.

Please tell me where in the description it is described as a "magic" flaming sword.
Magic weapons do full damage to vampires, MD magic energy attacks do half the MD as HP.

The issue here is I do not see it called 'magic' anywhere. It is a natural ability, not a spell. There are plenty of aliens out there with weird elemental abilities, that doesn't make'm magic. One of those guys in Skraypers with Super Energy Expulsion Fire would not hurt a vamp, far as I know.

H.P. Hovercraft wrote:

Raze_7 wrote:Seraphs are creatures of supernatural good, that get a Fire-Sword ability that deals "8D6 damage [in this case, HP or MD] to supernatural evil." Vampires are creatures of supernatural evil, who are resistant to magic fire.

Would the magic resistance of the Vampire make it only take half damage (4D6, which is the amount dealt to mortals) from the Seraph's sword, or would the Seraph have some sort of magic that circumvented this?

Also, how does a Vampire, as a supernatural creature, still have hit-points?

Holy Skimming thru the info given in the Revised VK book only makes it clear that the answer is NOT clear!

However, although most types of magic and most magic weapons only inflict 1/2 damage, if the Seraph's fire sword is listed as a "Natural Ability" and not under either "Magic," or "Equipment," I'd personally rule it as an extension of themselves, and therefore it would inflict full damage (as per a supernatural being).

Also, if the Seraph's write-up says that the fire-sword does, "8D6 damage to supernatural evil," then I would go with that as vampires clearly count as supernatural evil.

Actually, it is listed as a manifestation of itself (under Natural Abilities), so... I'm pretty sure it does full damage. Either that, or it's considered a "holy" weapon (because it's a manifestation of the form of an angel), which would also deal increased damage to creatures of supernatural evil.

Tor wrote:As for supernatural PS (or PS bonuses to SDC), unless there is some indication the sword has a physical base surrounded by flame, I would go with it being an energy weapon and only have the 4d6 HP.

The sword is listed under 'natural abilities'.

That said: I would question whether this weapon damages vampires at all, if it is not magic.

Having the natural ability to create flaming sword doesn't make the flaming sword itself a natural attack from a creature of magic capable of harming a vampire.

The whole reason dragon breath weapons could harm vampires (though oddly it is a fixed damage for all species not based on the original amount) is because they are magical in nature.

If we consider the flaming sword a 'magic weapon' rather than a 'MD magical energy attack' then it could do full damage to HP rather than half.

But as pointed out... we are not explicitly told it is magical, so it may just be mundane flame.

Seraph have the ability to make Psi-Swords, which can harm vampires, I see no trouble in forcing them to resort to that if they want to damage them. Flaming swords are just a tad too convenient IMO.

The Seraph is considered a Supernatural Magical Creature (as it takes increased damage from effects that say "damage is increased to creatures of magic" and "damage is increased to supernatural creatures.")

Chronicle wrote:Holy fire burns a hell of a lot.

Or, you could say that, ahem, "Holy fire burns the Hell of Lot." (Sodom and Gomorrah)

I know, I know, it's a horrible pun, but... I couldn't resist.

Tor wrote:Please tell me where in the description it is described as a "magic" flaming sword.
Magic weapons do full damage to vampires, MD magic energy attacks do half the MD as HP.

The issue here is I do not see it called 'magic' anywhere. It is a natural ability, not a spell. There are plenty of aliens out there with weird elemental abilities, that doesn't make'm magic. One of those guys in Skraypers with Super Energy Expulsion Fire would not hurt a vamp, far as I know.

Dragons and Gods pg. 78 last line of the first paragraph under Seraph"...and always wield a magical flaming sword (4d6 damage to mortals, 8d6 damage to supernatural evil and creatures of magic."
The natural ability allows them to create that sword at will.

Raze_7 wrote:it is listed as a manifestation of itself (under Natural Abilities)

I'm not seeing any 'manifestation of self' text there.

eliakon wrote:Dragons and Gods pg. 78 last line of the first paragraph under Seraph"...and always wield a magical flaming sword (4d6 damage to mortals, 8d6 damage to supernatural evil and creatures of magic." The natural ability allows them to create that sword at will.

This I find convincing, since it is specifically called magical here in the intro as opposed to merely 'magically created' under the natural ability.

That said, this is odd. They are merely 'usually' clad in armor but 'always' wield a sword?

If they ALWAYS wield it then what is the whole 'when the angel no longer needs it, it disappears' thing about?

Perhaps it never disappears because they always need it in case an enemy appears out of nowhere and it will only disappear when the universe is rid of evil, like that whole Apok mask myth?

i think the "always wield" bit is to specify it is always in the form of a sword.. and not an axe or club or spear, etc.

the sword may be summoned or dispelled as needed, but it can't be anything but a sword.

That makes sense, didn't think of it that way. Guess they're no cyber-knights.

This is bringing bad memories of reading the Siege on Tolkeen series in the Rifter about a brutal Naruni Repo Bot

Tor wrote:That makes sense, didn't think of it that way. Guess they're no cyber-knights.

This is bringing bad memories of reading the Siege on Tolkeen series in the Rifter about a brutal Naruni Repo Bot

another thing is as I read the description the Seraph are light oriented beings of the fire element. it also indicated that they can create/summon their flaming sword at a moments notice without any cost, and its explicitly stated as being both magical and doing extra damage to supernatural evil creatures which is more or less (IMO) essentially the DEFINITION of vampires, and Daemons (and others)

it also mentioned that the Seraph's have resistances to damage, and immunity to fire and heat damage including (explicitly) MDC plasma.

a point on the weapon vs armor that came to mind, is that the magical flaming sword may be their equivalent of a psi sword, and or an extension of their "essence" whereas the Armor has multiple appearances because its an actual crafted armor and not something they just summon/ (will into existence). so the armor they have they have to make provisions to transport, and it takes (normal) donning time, whereas the sword is "raise hand SWORD!!" and they are holding and ready to use the sword.

Tor wrote:

Raze_7 wrote:it is listed as a manifestation of itself (under Natural Abilities)

I'm not seeing any 'manifestation of self' text there.

Okay, this is a personal view. I view Natural Magical Abilities, whenever they take the form of a magic thing that has no PPE cost, can only be used by that entity, and doesn't count as an action to create as a manifestation of the entity. However, it may not be the case, it's just the way that I make sense of it. It would be helpful if they put in something like, "The sword automatically deals at least full damage to supernatural creatures of evil, despite any resistances." You know, just to clarify things a little.

guardiandashi wrote:

Tor wrote:That makes sense, didn't think of it that way. Guess they're no cyber-knights.

This is bringing bad memories of reading the Siege on Tolkeen series in the Rifter about a brutal Naruni Repo Bot

another thing is as I read the description the Seraph are light oriented beings of the fire element. it also indicated that they can create/summon their flaming sword at a moments notice without any cost, and its explicitly stated as being both magical and doing extra damage to supernatural evil creatures which is more or less (IMO) essentially the DEFINITION of vampires, and Daemons (and others)

it also mentioned that the Seraph's have resistances to damage, and immunity to fire and heat damage including (explicitly) MDC plasma.

a point on the weapon vs armor that came to mind, is that the magical flaming sword may be their equivalent of a psi sword, and or an extension of their "essence" whereas the Armor has multiple appearances because its an actual crafted armor and not something they just summon/ (will into existence). so the armor they have they have to make provisions to transport, and it takes (normal) donning time, whereas the sword is "raise hand SWORD!!" and they are holding and ready to use the sword.

does it say the armor is a manufactured thing? or is it just part of the appearance (the 'body') of entity, which is why not all of them are armored..

after all, their 'natural form' is basically a mass of energy.. their physical form is basically a facade they create to interact with the physical world. (at least, IIRC)
one would presume that they can choose to appear as they wish.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:

Tor wrote:That makes sense, didn't think of it that way. Guess they're no cyber-knights.

This is bringing bad memories of reading the Siege on Tolkeen series in the Rifter about a brutal Naruni Repo Bot

another thing is as I read the description the Seraph are light oriented beings of the fire element. it also indicated that they can create/summon their flaming sword at a moments notice without any cost, and its explicitly stated as being both magical and doing extra damage to supernatural evil creatures which is more or less (IMO) essentially the DEFINITION of vampires, and Daemons (and others)

it also mentioned that the Seraph's have resistances to damage, and immunity to fire and heat damage including (explicitly) MDC plasma.

a point on the weapon vs armor that came to mind, is that the magical flaming sword may be their equivalent of a psi sword, and or an extension of their "essence" whereas the Armor has multiple appearances because its an actual crafted armor and not something they just summon/ (will into existence). so the armor they have they have to make provisions to transport, and it takes (normal) donning time, whereas the sword is "raise hand SWORD!!" and they are holding and ready to use the sword.

does it say the armor is a manufactured thing? or is it just part of the appearance (the 'body') of entity, which is why not all of them are armored..

after all, their 'natural form' is basically a mass of energy.. their physical form is basically a facade they create to interact with the physical world. (at least, IIRC)
one would presume that they can choose to appear as they wish.

They are usually clad in golden or red armor (A.R. 15,
S.D.C.: 1D6x10 +100) and always wield a magical flaming
sword (4D6 damage to mortals, 8D6 damage to supernatural evil
and creatures of magic).

Create Flaming Sword (Special): The Seraph can magically
create a flaming sword out of thin air. When the angel no longer
needs it, it disappears. Damage: 4D6 to mortals, 8D6 damage to
supernatural evil and creatures of magic. Can be created as often
as needed at no P.P.E. cost. Only the Seraph can use the weapon.

Vulnerabilities: Normal weapons do half damage, while most
magic spells, magic weapons and psionics do normal damage.
Weapons made of ice and cold and water based psionics,
magic and magic weapons inflict double damage.

it doesn't really say either way, but the way it reads (to me) the sword is seriously special the armor not as much

ah. been awhile since i read that part. (and i don't think the rifts CB1 version mentioned armor, that's the one i remember better)

so yeah, the armor has to be separate.

i wonder how it's made..

well since they are fire elementals I would think they have a natural affinity for smithing (when they get their hands on the materials)

guardiandashi wrote:as I read the description the Seraph are light oriented beings of the fire element.

Not really a factor in whether they harm vamps, but I think they're supernatural and supie-punches can harm them.

guardiandashi wrote:it also indicated that they can create/summon their flaming sword at a moments notice without any cost, and its explicitly stated as being both magical and doing extra damage to supernatural evil creatures which is more or less (IMO) essentially the DEFINITION of vampires, and Daemons (and others)

That it was magical was mentioned under the intro paragraph, the natural ability only stated it was magically created, so that's why I did not immediately notice. Magically created things do not necessarily qualify as magical weapons. But in this case it does, per the intro paragraph.

Doing extra damage to supernatural evil does not mean your weapon can bypass invulnerabilities that supernatural evil beings have, so it would only apply if it had a means of bypassing an invulnerability. Luckily for Seraphs, being a magical weapon does do this.

It would not, however, necessarily harm something intangible like an entity, or invulnerable like a were-beast. Their 'vulnerable to magic' statement may only apply to non-damaging effects of spells.