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My group and i want to start playing using the rifts universe however with all the books out there in the megaverse that are involved it all seems quite overwhelming and i wanted to know what books you would suggest we get to start with?

Before Revised, I would say this is what you need:

Rifts Main Book
Rifts Sourcebook 1
Rifts World Book 1: Vampire Kingdom

Between these three books, there is enough plot, depth, and a world to have countless adventures. It will also give you a good sense of style and where the group is going to figure out if you want to venture into more sourcebooks.

Now... it's a little less clear.

Rifts Ultimate Edition
Rifts Sourcebook 1 Revised
Rifts World Book 1: Vampire Kingdom Revised
Rifts Vampire Sourcebook

That should get the bulk of what the first 3 provide.

In either case if your heavily into Magic you want to get Rifts Book of Magic. If someone is really into Cyborgs, the Rifts Bionic Sourcebook. Past that, everything else is fluff. I don't recommend getting the Game Master Guide, unless you have a good chunk of the books. It will list stats for vehicles weapons and what not that you will want to know more about, and won't have available.

If I were to start someone new right now I would probably recommend:

Rifts Ultimate Edition
Rifts Book of Magic
Rifts Bionic Sourcebook.
World Book of choice

RIFTS Ultimate Edition has everything you need to get started; the RIFTS Game Master Guide is not a Game Master's Guide, but rather a Master Guide to the game before Ultimate Edition; it is filled with good information that will help you decide what other setting books you may want to get, and fully stated weapons and armor compendium (again, pre-Ultimate Edition), and partial stats on vehicles and robots. All of that gives you what books you can find the full stats in.

The RIFTS Book of Magic has a compendium of Spells from all of the books prior to Ultimate Edition (full stats), as well as Techno-Wizard items, Q&A, and Magic class index, so if you have players who like magic, it's an excellent resource to start with.

As mentioned above, there is a Bionics Sourcebook for the cyborg inclined players, and it has variations on the City Rat OCC.

If you love Robots/Mech & Power Armor, the biggest compendiums are the two Triax books and the two Northern Gun books.

Also, check out the RIFTS Game Master Kit at DriveThruRPG.com; It's a good starter package. The original Game Master Shields & Adventures has some useful things on it (IMHO) like Salvage Rates, Repair Rates, and quick NPC Generation Tables.

Let us know what you settle on to start!

Thank you very much everyone. We've only played in the D&D universe so far, so it looks like we have some choices to make but you have provided a lot of helpful information

Tiree wrote:snip...
Rifts Ultimate Edition
Rifts Sourcebook 1 Revised
Rifts World Book 1: Vampire Kingdom Revised
...snip

For newcomers I agree with these there as the first three rifts books.

So for my list I will focus on something else.

After getting RUE, RSBr1 and VKr, what core/resource books should you get?
Rifts Book of Magic (contains spells from most of the types of magics: Elemental, common/invocation, Temporal, Nature, necro.....)
Rifts GMG (which is a listing of all the Psionics that are not unique to a Race, and mundane weapons and vehicles.)
PFRPG 2nd ed Monsters and animals or the Rifts Conversion Book 1 revised.

For me, it's not about the monsters and critters. You can game without that. What these books provide me, are setting, tone, and power level for the game.

With those books, you have a good core, and can decide on what you want to introduce later on. Whether it's more powerful OCC, Weapons, Mecha, Monsters, etc...

My games are darker and grittier than most. People tend to survive, and salvage to break even for their fights. SDC is common, MDC is uncommon. Player Characters OCC's are considered uncommon. Thus making players true heroes. Cities are rare, towns and villages are days apart. And travel for anyone other than the mega cities unlikely unless your a PC.

BuzzardB wrote:If I were to start someone new right now I would probably recommend:

Rifts Ultimate Edition
Rifts Book of Magic
Rifts Bionic Sourcebook.
World Book of choice

This is my recommendation as well. Maybe throw in the Game masters guide as well but I reference the book of magic WAAY more than I do the GMG. Really the two most core books are the RUE and the book of magic. The bionic source book is a must if you have any borgs as it has stuff that was left out of the RUE such as most of the cybernetics.

Have a good read through Rifts Ultimate Edition, decide what interests you the most, and purchase accordingly.

My list to cover all bases before even buying a worldbook:

Rifts Ultimate Edition (core rules)
Rifts Book of Magic (all things magic)
Rifts Bionic Sourcebook (all things bionic and cybernetic)
Rifts Game Master Guide (all things to running the game)
Rifts Adventure Guide (a excellent resource for GMs)
Gamemaster kit
Rifts Dark Conversions ( the Rifts monster manual)

Well, there are books you get for the setting and books you get for the character classes.

For the setting:
Wormwood
South America 1 and 2
Atlantis
Book of Magic (spells are part of the setting)

Disclaimer: I consider North America to be a terrible setting. Too many books, poorly thought out, nothing very compelling. Although it can be fun using the CS as a punching bag if your group is up for that sort of thing.

For the classes:
England: Temporal Wizard, Temporal Warrior, Druids
Mercenaries: nice selection of non-magic, non-psychic classes
Psyscape: psi-tech, mind bleeder, handful of others


Other books I like:
Game Master Guide (lots of neat reading)
Conversion Book 1 (super powers, lots of races) Note: I have the first edition, I understand the new edition is different.
Phase World (lots of everything)
Conversion Book 2: Pantheons -- godlings and demi-gods make great characters for high-powered games

If you want more magic OCCs, Federation of Magic has a bunch (but I'm not really a fan)

--flatline

I suggest the PDF for Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy.

I enjoy RIFTS, but Mechanoids was Palladium's first RPG and it contains some seriously distilled awesomeness with light rules and great flavor. Rifts is much more rules-heavy with much more canon.

But Rifts setting is awesome. No question about that. My own Mechanoids campaign pillages ideas from Rifts.

If your group is looking for something lighter, Rifts' chargen and rules may not be the best fit which is something I've encountered when doing Palladium demos. That's why I've promoted Mechanoids to players who want a really flavorful setting, but fast chargen and fast gameplay.

Here's some reviews:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14924.phtml

Here is the PDF for the Trilogy
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/6 ... on-Trilogy

Here is the PDF for just Invasion (Revised and Expanded)
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/6 ... anoids-RPG

Rifts Ultimate
Vampire Kingdoms
New West
Rifts Arzno: Vampire Incursion

mithrauko wrote:My group and i want to start playing using the rifts universe however with all the books out there in the megaverse that are involved it all seems quite overwhelming and i wanted to know what books you would suggest we get to start with?

That kind of depends on why you want to play in the first place, and what kind of game you're interested in.

Personally, I'd suggest you get a copy of the original Rifts book, an original Sourcebook 1, and an original Vampire Kingdoms, and just play with those for a while.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Personally, I'd suggest you get a copy of the original Rifts book, an original Sourcebook 1, and an original Vampire Kingdoms, and just play with those for a while.

I think I'd pretty much second that recommendation, but add Mercenaries, and probably the original (not revised) Conversion Book One. If you can't find the original Coversion Book One, then get the revised version plus Dark Conversions.

Just that set will take you pretty darn far into having lots of fun.

original version books are hard to find and way out of date. they are also filled with a lot more screwy and unbalanced rules.

my suggestion?
a copy of Rifts Ultimate Edition. (basically the "2nd edition", the most recent, and this on its own is actually enough to start playing)
Rifts Game Master Guide (a master guide to rifts game.. has quick stats for a huge number of weapons and vehicles, and listings of where you can find most of the OCC's, RCC's, and the like.)
Rifts Dark Conversions (basically a 'monster manual' with most of the common monsters, demons, etc from across palladium's game lines.)

those are enough to get you started.

anything beyond this should be focused on whichever setting you want to use, or which sounds interesting.

Cyrano de Maniac wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Personally, I'd suggest you get a copy of the original Rifts book, an original Sourcebook 1, and an original Vampire Kingdoms, and just play with those for a while.

I think I'd pretty much second that recommendation, but add Mercenaries, and probably the original (not revised) Conversion Book One. If you can't find the original Coversion Book One, then get the revised version plus Dark Conversions.

Just that set will take you pretty darn far into having lots of fun.

I think there's too much overpowered stuff in Mercenaries, although it has a lot of good stuff in there too.

And Conversion Book 1 is where Rifts really started to go wrong, in hindsight. It changed the tone of the game.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And Conversion Book 1 is where Rifts really started to go wrong, in hindsight. It changed the tone of the game.

Really? What do you have in mind when you say that?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:And Conversion Book 1 is where Rifts really started to go wrong, in hindsight. It changed the tone of the game.

Really? What do you have in mind when you say that?

--flatline

I think it's all about the M.D.C.. The Original Rifts Main Book tried to paint a picture of the world where a guy in Plastic Man armor and a Wilk's laser pistol was a force to be reckoned with. Anyone with M.D.C. gear was ready to pick a small community of struggling and frightened survivors and either help them survive and move on, or rule over them. M.D.C. gear, despite being common to the O.C.C.'s in the book, was rare everywhere else. Repair costs were designed to reflect that (and still do). Bandits and other enemies could just as easily have S.D.C. firearms and armor and still terrorize. S.D.C. creatures (like escaped 21st century zoo animals who thrived in the wild) were just as much a threat as anything else.

Monsters with M.D.C. were supposed to have some vital weakness that made them surmountable by someone with only S.D.C. gear and either a little luck or knowledge. The random monster table in the back of the Original Rifts Main Book was designed to reflect that. Then the Conversion Book listed dozens of potential monsters who were not only M.D.C., but they could only be beaten by M.D.C.. It allowed superhumans with superpowers to have M.D.C. and be augmented at essentially no cost. From that point on Rifts was a different game.

Glistam wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:And Conversion Book 1 is where Rifts really started to go wrong, in hindsight. It changed the tone of the game.

Really? What do you have in mind when you say that?

--flatline

I think it's all about the M.D.C.. The Original Rifts Main Book tried to paint a picture of the world where a guy in Plastic Man armor and a Wilk's laser pistol was a force to be reckoned with. Anyone with M.D.C. gear was ready to pick a small community of struggling and frightened survivors and either help them survive and move on, or rule over them. M.D.C. gear, despite being common to the O.C.C.'s in the book, was rare everywhere else. Repair costs were designed to reflect that (and still do). Bandits and other enemies could just as easily have S.D.C. firearms and armor and still terrorize. S.D.C. creatures (like escaped 21st century zoo animals who thrived in the wild) were just as much a threat as anything else.

Monsters with M.D.C. were supposed to have some vital weakness that made them surmountable by someone with only S.D.C. gear and either a little luck or knowledge. The random monster table in the back of the Original Rifts Main Book was designed to reflect that. Then the Conversion Book listed dozens of potential monsters who were not only M.D.C., but they could only be beaten by M.D.C.. It allowed superhumans with superpowers to have M.D.C. and be augmented at essentially no cost. From that point on Rifts was a different game.

Yes, and well said.

When CB1 came out, people treated it like a Monster Manual, because it had so many races already statted out. It was really handy... but it moved people away from the Random Monster Generation Tables in the RMB, which moved people away from the theme that supernatural critters as a rule had some kind of vulnerability to certain SDC attacks.
This not only made SDC less interesting and viable for player characters, it changed the nature of the setting to where it didn't make as much sense for SDC (or mostly SDC) communities to survive, because while the RMB creatures set things up to where people might know the vulnerabilities of the local monsters and be able to fight against them, the only real vulnerability of most of the new monsters is specifically mega-damage weaponry.
The net effect of this was to cripple a lot of people's belief in the basic setting, as well as to make things less interesting for PCs when it came to SDC threats/equipment/combat.

Also, it created a huge number of non-human playable races that had natural mega-damage and bio-regeneration, and they weren't all as well balanced to the setting as Dragon Hatchlings were.

Worse, it introduced the Supernatural PS damage tables, allowing any creature with Supernatural PS to inflict Mega-Damage with that PS, instead of having flat mega-damage for natural attacks by race/species. This increased the power levels of the game significantly, especially since CB1 introduced a number of super powers that provided Supernatural PS to humans.

Also, it contributed VERY heavily to power creep, by making mega-damage the new normal.
You have a super power that gives you a stretchy body? You're now an MDC creature.
You learned mystic Body Hardening? You're now an MDC creature.
You practice wrist exercises....? You're now an MDC creature!! A direct hit from a LAW rocket probably won't kill you, and you can detonate a stick of TNT in your hand without flinching. Bullets? Somebody else's problem, because you've exercised those wrists a lot...

Oh, and if you've done kick practices in Martial Arts class, now you can kick for as much damage as a laser rifle blast (i.e., the canon of a modern battle tank)!
And so forth.

Huh. The impression I got was that the quick roll monsters were to serve as a stop-gap until supplements could be released, and were not intended to be the rule going forward.

"A variety of specific, supernatural monsters and demons will be presented in the upcoming supplements; till then, one can use the random monster generation tables, presented here, to create a host of fiends from the rifts." (Rifts RPG, pg. 249)

Perhaps I just viewed the Conversion Book as intended to be one such supplement? I sure got a lot of mileage out of it.

That supernatural critters had to have vulnerabilities *as a rule* looks to only apply to the quick roll predators. The quick-roll intelligent monsters have rolling on the vulnerability table as optional. In fact, the remainder of the antagonists in the book only provide M.D.C. The Xiticix, Fury Beetle, and even the "Typical Dinosaur" are impervious to all conventional weapons; there are no specific vulnerabilities listed. Even when an enemy would actually have H.P. and S.D.C. (the CS soldiers), it's not listed. It's almost as if M.D.C. warfare was considered the standard for dealing with antagonists right from the first book!

Did enough people solely use the quick-roll supernatural predator for the entire first year of release to bring about this crippling of their basic belief in the setting? Up until the release of the Conversion Book, were those additional options ignored and never used? That seems...odd.


To the OP, unless you intend to start in a particular non-North America part of the world, I suggest going with the basic Rifts RPG (either edition). Then, as you get more comfortable with the setting and rules, decide if you want more and buy as appropriate.

Dreamstreamer wrote:Huh. The impression I got was that the quick roll monsters were to serve as a stop-gap until supplements could be released, and were not intended to be the rule going forward.

"A variety of specific, supernatural monsters and demons will be presented in the upcoming supplements; till then, one can use the random monster generation tables, presented here, to create a host of fiends from the rifts." (Rifts RPG, pg. 249)

Perhaps I just viewed the Conversion Book as intended to be one such supplement? I sure got a lot of mileage out of it.

It was one such supplement.
But it changed the dynamic.

That supernatural critters had to have vulnerabilities *as a rule* looks to only apply to the quick roll predators. The quick-roll intelligent monsters have rolling on the vulnerability table as optional.

Right. But it's not even optional for the CB1 stuff.

In fact, the remainder of the antagonists in the book only provide M.D.C. The Xiticix, Fury Beetle, and even the "Typical Dinosaur" are impervious to all conventional weapons; there are no specific vulnerabilities listed. Even when an enemy would actually have H.P. and S.D.C. (the CS soldiers), it's not listed.

The CS soldier stats aren't full stats. And no, in mega-damage combat, SDC usually doesn't matter unless there is some kind of vulnerability... which was part of my point.
Fury Beetles and Xiticix are TWO races versus the hundreds of possible randomly rolled creatures and variants.
Dinosaurs didn't have specific vulnerabilities, but they also didn't have a lot of MDC, and so were pretty vulnerable to stuff like 40mm grenades, RPGs, etc. (Of course, even THAT was pretty unrealistic, and was one of my complaints about the original book- dinosaurs shouldn't be bullet-proof.)

The majority of the creature races in the main book had vulnerabilities.
The majority of the creatures in CB1 do not.
That is a change.

It's almost as if M.D.C. warfare was considered the standard for dealing with antagonists right from the first book!

Only sometimes. Notice that the Xiticix had SDC bayonets, just like most OCCs start off with SDC weapons in addition to their MD weapons.

Did enough people solely use the quick-roll supernatural predator for the entire first year of release to bring about this crippling of their basic belief in the setting? Up until the release of the Conversion Book, were those additional options ignored and never used? That seems...odd.

Not sure what you're trying to ask.

Dreamstreamer wrote:Did enough people solely use the quick-roll supernatural predator for the entire first year of release to bring about this crippling of their basic belief in the setting? Up until the release of the Conversion Book, were those additional options ignored and never used? That seems...odd.

Until the world books started coming out, we made pretty extensive use of the random monster tables in RMB. Heck, we even used them to create characters!

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Dreamstreamer wrote:Did enough people solely use the quick-roll supernatural predator for the entire first year of release to bring about this crippling of their basic belief in the setting? Up until the release of the Conversion Book, were those additional options ignored and never used? That seems...odd.

Until the world books started coming out, we made pretty extensive use of the random monster tables in RMB. Heck, we even used them to create characters!

--flatline

I don't think it gets more 'Rifts' than that!

Killer Cyborg wrote:Not sure what you're trying to ask.

There is a very narrow window where one could read Rifts and make the assumption that all supernatural creatures predators had vulnerabilities, and that the Conversion Book (by not including those vulnerabilities) came as a surprise and changed the perceived dynamic of how supernatural predators and civilization interact. But it is still a stretch.

When you say:

Killer Cyborg wrote:[It] moved people away from the Random Monster Generation Tables in the RMB, which moved people away from the theme that supernatural critters as a rule had some kind of vulnerability to certain SDC attacks.
This not only made SDC less interesting and viable for player characters, it changed the nature of the setting to where it didn't make as much sense for SDC (or mostly SDC) communities to survive, because while the RMB creatures set things up to where people might know the vulnerabilities of the local monsters and be able to fight against them, the only real vulnerability of most of the new monsters is specifically mega-damage weaponry.
The net effect of this was to cripple a lot of people's belief in the basic setting, as well as to make things less interesting for PCs when it came to SDC threats/equipment/combat.

I see a lot of assumptions about the setting that don't pan out unless supernatural predators were the only enemy used. They certainly weren't the only enemy described! It's why I listed every other enemy statted out in the core, none of which support such a setting premise. SDC communities survive because of guardians (or possibly just dumb luck), whether that's the CS military or the PCs or some NPC Glitterboy/HeadHunter/Cyberknight/Other exceptional being, not because the villagers know the secret weaknesses of the supernatural.

The Conversion Book is getting picked on, but it wasn't alone. Sourcebook One, World Book One: Vampire Kingdoms, and the Conversion Book all dropped at about the same time. It makes more sense to me that three books released so soon after the core would have the same world design philosophy used for the core than one book making a major change, especially when they were all written by the same author.

Sourcebook One had rules for creating robots, none of which were S.D.C. (to my possibly faulty memory), or particularly vulnerable to anything. Did anything in Sourcebook One have particular vulnerabilities? The Brodkil didn't. The Splugorth Slaver and Blind Altaran Warrior Women didn't. A.R.C.H.I.E.'s/Hagan's bots didn't. At least, as far as I can remember they didn't. Of those, at least the Splugorth Slaver (and possibly the Brodkil) are supernatural, yes? Why weren't they given vulnerabilities?

Admittedly, vampires do have vulnerabilities. And the play on running water with squirt guns was certainly unique, though perhaps taken a bit too far. Small children with plastic water pistols pose a threat to supernatural evil! Were any of the other supernatural critters that debuted in that book vulnerable in a similar fashion?

The Conversion Book introduced critters from Beyond the Supernatural and Palladium Fantasy. The supernatural monsters from those books largely don't have the kind of vulnerabilities mentioned in the random supernatural predator table. Should the conversions have been modified to include vulnerabilities? That would make sense if all supernatural monsters in Rifts were also expected to be vulnerable.

But they weren't modified.

I have trouble seeing how people can blame a book that came out so quickly after the core rules for a dramatic (and permanent!) paradigm shift in setting design. Instead, I see it as the setting mostly being described one way, with a single table offering a bit of variation. The design is then better established and clarified with subsequent releases.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

We were super happy when CB1 came out. We had already been house-ruling conversions from HU and N&SS and it was great to have official conversions to use as a starting point.

We didn't see CB1 as a monster manual of potential enemies to fight, we saw it as an expansion of the potential characters we could play.

--flatline

I'm with you, Dreamstreamer. I had RIFTS in my hands 3 days after it was released, and the first half dozen or so supplements just as quickly and I've ALWAYS scratched my head at this nonsense that Kevin somehow 'ruined' the flavor of the main book. That's all on the reader, not the guy who created the game and wrote the books..


What happens when you assume anything? I won't say but u aren't making me look good.

Dreamstreamer wrote:When you say:

Killer Cyborg wrote:[It] moved people away from the Random Monster Generation Tables in the RMB, which moved people away from the theme that supernatural critters as a rule had some kind of vulnerability to certain SDC attacks.
This not only made SDC less interesting and viable for player characters, it changed the nature of the setting to where it didn't make as much sense for SDC (or mostly SDC) communities to survive, because while the RMB creatures set things up to where people might know the vulnerabilities of the local monsters and be able to fight against them, the only real vulnerability of most of the new monsters is specifically mega-damage weaponry.
The net effect of this was to cripple a lot of people's belief in the basic setting, as well as to make things less interesting for PCs when it came to SDC threats/equipment/combat.

I see a lot of assumptions about the setting that don't pan out unless supernatural predators were the only enemy used. They certainly weren't the only enemy described!

Supernatural creatuers weren't the only enemy described, only the most common enemy overall.
Yes, there were xiticix. Yes, there were dinosaurs. Yes, there were fury beetles. Yes, there were bandits and the CS.
But the supernatural monster tables could generate a practically infinite number of races of supernatural creatures. I'm not going to do the math to figure out exactly how many races total could be generated just on stats alone, but the 5-6 other options are just a tiny drop in the ocean of possibilities that the RMB presented in the way of monsters/enemies. Even if you include every OCC in the RMB as a separate threat, it's still just a tiny drop in the ocean compared to supernatural creatures.

SDC communities survive because of guardians (or possibly just dumb luck), whether that's the CS military or the PCs or some NPC Glitterboy/HeadHunter/Cyberknight/Other exceptional being, not because the villagers know the secret weaknesses of the supernatural.

I see you making a lot of assumptions about the setting.

RMB 137
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector or group of protectors, much like the knights of old.
and
The concept of a champion who serves as protector and peacekeeper has been adopted by many towns and villages as well.

Note that "majority" and "many" is not the same as "all," or "as a rule."

The Conversion Book is getting picked on, but it wasn't alone.

How many books do you want us to pick on here?
Because that could take up an entire thread on its own right.
Well, really, each book could.

Sourcebook One, World Book One: Vampire Kingdoms, and the Conversion Book all dropped at about the same time. It makes more sense to me that three books released so soon after the core would have the same world design philosophy used for the core than one book making a major change, especially when they were all written by the same author.

It would... BUT that philosophy wasn't solid. Vampires were originally supposed to be mega-damage creatures (RMB 12). The game was was surprisingly successful beyond expectations, and it became much larger than originally envisioned. There was originally only supposed to be ONE world book that would cover everything (SB1 5). By the time SB1 came out, they were slowly realizing that they'd need "several" world books.
Kevin wrote and released the RMB with the expectations that it would be successful enough to warrant a followup world book, but that's about it. He didn't know or dream that the game would take off like it did, and when he sold out the initial print run of 10,000 copies in three weeks (MOPs 107), and had the fans clamoring for more, getting flooded by phone calls from fans who wanted more, he was scrambling to make more product. He churned out the first Sourcebook just to satisfy customer demand (SB1 5), including the section on robots that had to be left out of the RMB due to space.
There was a lot of stuff that was changed from the RMB to SB1 to CB1 (And, for that matter, pretty regularly ever since), and part of the reason for some of the changes was the success of the game. The supernatural creature tables in the RMB were fantastic for a limited game like Palladium had produced in the past, but in order to fill the sort of shoes that the customers were demanding, Palladium had to crank out a lot of material fast.
In this haste, one of the fastest, easiest books Palladium could possibly have created would be one that re-used stuff that already existed, that drew on previous material. For example, a book that reprinted previous monsters and powers, with some tweaks that adjusted the previous material to the Rifts setting, freshening it up a bit, as well as fleshing out the setting of the world.
But the stuff in CB1 is stuff that was designed for other games and other settings, so with the release of that book, the amount of non-rifts creatures seemingly present on Rifts Earth overwhelmed the stuff presented in the RMB in a lot of ways.

Sourcebook One had rules for creating robots, none of which were S.D.C. (to my possibly faulty memory), or particularly vulnerable to anything.

Are you assuming that robots are supposed to be a common problem for SDC communities on Rifts Earth?

Did anything in Sourcebook One have particular vulnerabilities? The Brodkil didn't. The Splugorth Slaver and Blind Altaran Warrior Women didn't. A.R.C.H.I.E.'s/Hagan's bots didn't. At least, as far as I can remember they didn't. Of those, at least the Splugorth Slaver (and possibly the Brodkil) are supernatural, yes? Why weren't they given vulnerabilities?

AFAIK, none of the monsters/creatures in SB1 had the same kind of vulnerabilities you see in the main book. So yes, that was also a departure, since some of those creatures were supernatural in nature.

Admittedly, vampires do have vulnerabilities. And the play on running water with squirt guns was certainly unique, though perhaps taken a bit too far. Small children with plastic water pistols pose a threat to supernatural evil!

Is that really weirder than a small child with a cross posing a threat? Or a little girl singing? Or any number of other stuff that's common in fairy tales, monster stories, and traditional lore?

Were any of the other supernatural critters that debuted in that book vulnerable in a similar fashion?

Were-creatures were, of course. Xibalbans are vulnerable to sliver. Ti-Xibalbans are vulnerable to fire. Cuchumaquiq was vulnerable to sunlight, silver, and some other stuff (in shadow form).
Dybbuk, Spider Demons, Mindolars, and Incubi/Succubi are NOT, but that falls in with the vulnerabilities being optional for intelligent supernatural monsters.
So VK stuck to the main book's pattern fairly well.

The Conversion Book introduced critters from Beyond the Supernatural and Palladium Fantasy. The supernatural monsters from those books largely don't have the kind of vulnerabilities mentioned in the random supernatural predator table. Should the conversions have been modified to include vulnerabilities? That would make sense if all supernatural monsters in Rifts were also expected to be vulnerable.

Not really... since those monsters had already been statted out. The problem wasn't the existence of the stuff in CB1, it's that such a large amount of them were dumped into a setting that had little else in the way of pre-made creatures.
The back of CB1 boasts "conversions for over 100 monsters and demons," although I haven't counted to verify that.
Compare "over 100" to "maybe a dozen or two" existing statted monsters that were made specifically for the game of Rifts at that time.

I have trouble seeing how people can blame a book that came out so quickly after the core rules for a dramatic (and permanent!) paradigm shift in setting design.

Because it was vastly different, and it changed a lot.

MADMANMIKE wrote:I'm with you, Dreamstreamer. I had RIFTS in my hands 3 days after it was released, and the first half dozen or so supplements just as quickly and I've ALWAYS scratched my head at this nonsense that Kevin somehow 'ruined' the flavor of the main book. That's all on the reader, not the guy who created the game and wrote the books..

IF a chef makes a meal, then changes the ingredients, are the diners to blame for saying that the flavor has changed?
I don't think so.
The RMB had different information, different monsters, different rules, different power levels, and more game balance than CB1 did.
It had different ingredients.
It had different flavor.

If you like the new flavor, good on you.
But don't pretend that it's the same.

flatline wrote:We were super happy when CB1 came out. We had already been house-ruling conversions from HU and N&SS and it was great to have official conversions to use as a starting point.

Before CB1, we just had everything translate as-is.
That worked pretty well, although with some of the odder stuff (chi powers) it was handy to have conversions, as well as for some of the stuff in HU where it made sense to change things a bit.
It was a handy book in that way... but there was also a lot of stuff that just didn't make sense (some of which I already pointed out in this thread).

We didn't see CB1 as a monster manual of potential enemies to fight, we saw it as an expansion of the potential characters we could play.
--flatline

We saw it as both!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MADMANMIKE wrote:I'm with you, Dreamstreamer. I had RIFTS in my hands 3 days after it was released, and the first half dozen or so supplements just as quickly and I've ALWAYS scratched my head at this nonsense that Kevin somehow 'ruined' the flavor of the main book. That's all on the reader, not the guy who created the game and wrote the books..

IF a chef makes a meal, then changes the ingredients, are the diners to blame for saying that the flavor has changed?
I don't think so.
The RMB had different information, different monsters, different rules, different power levels, and more game balance than CB1 did.
It had different ingredients.
It had different flavor.

If you like the new flavor, good on you.
But don't pretend that it's the same.

RMB 37:

Without a doubt, it is the most accurate and inclusive journal/atlas
of the Rifts world available on the black market. Unfortunately, that
is not saying much, as even the intrepid historian Tarn has vast gaps
in her knowledge of the world. It is this lack of complete knowledge
that made her refuse to write the volume herself, or personally endorse
the much sought after publication.

Apparently when you read the book you missed that.. it set the tone for the book and left some of us waiting impatiently for more information before deciding we knew exactly what RIFTS was supposed to be...

Mike, that has nothing to do with anything I've talked about in this thread.

I'm with KC - the tone of Rifts has changed over the years. The first three books, RMB, WB1:VK and SB1, really show a lot of flavor of Rifts. It's when you start adding in additional material, you start noticing the power creep. How can you not? If you kept the power creep at bay, you'd see about 10 times as many Laser Pistols that do 1d6 damage. They are all the same statistics, with no difference. Why?

Kevin and Co, found the right mix for selling books. Gear & Weapons, Character Classes, and Fluff Material. They have it down to a science. Setting only books don't sell to everyone. Gear Only books sells nearly to every one. With their magic combo, they can sell books to both players and GM's alike.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Supernatural creatuers weren't the only enemy described, only the most common enemy overall.
Yes, there were xiticix. Yes, there were dinosaurs. Yes, there were fury beetles. Yes, there were bandits and the CS.
But the supernatural monster tables could generate a practically infinite number of races of supernatural creatures. I'm not going to do the math to figure out exactly how many races total could be generated just on stats alone, but the 5-6 other options are just a tiny drop in the ocean of possibilities that the RMB presented in the way of monsters/enemies. Even if you include every OCC in the RMB as a separate threat, it's still just a tiny drop in the ocean compared to supernatural creatures.

See, you appear to be treating the random roll monsters as this infinite source of unique enemies, then treat each enemy and O.C.C. as a static and separate threat, but I think that makes for bad math. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The random variations in each of the O.C.C.s should be treated the same as the random variations in supernatural creatures.

I began to work out the possible permutations for the Supernatural Predator. After doing some quick calculator math, I got a number out to around 30 places. That's a big number, and it doesn't even include the Intelligent Supernatural Monster!

Then I started going through the character creation section and decided I'd save my sanity before I delved too deeply. There are too many randomly generated bits to come close to comparing. Certainly more than are provided in the Random Roll Monster tables in the back. The permutations in skill choice alone is staggering!

But, if you want the actual numbers, I suppose I can take some time this weekend to work through them all. I'll likely be grumpy at the end of it though!

Killer Cyborg wrote:I see you making a lot of assumptions about the setting.

RMB 137
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector or group of protectors, much like the knights of old.
and
The concept of a champion who serves as protector and peacekeeper has been adopted by many towns and villages as well.

Note that "majority" and "many" is not the same as "all," or "as a rule."

Assumptions that have textual reference and support instead of relying on inference and speculation alone. You are correct that many does not equate to all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:It would... BUT that philosophy wasn't solid. Vampires were originally supposed to be mega-damage creatures (RMB 12).

Funny you should mention pg. 12. In that same paragraph it has this bit:

"Some even have odd vulnerabilities, such as fire, sunlight, salt, or iron, which will hurt the supernatural fiend when bullets can't (unusual vulnerabilities will be noted in monster descriptions)."

Weren't you just saying something about some not being equivalent to all?

Killer Cyborg wrote:The game was was surprisingly successful beyond expectations, and it became much larger than originally envisioned. There was originally only supposed to be ONE world book that would cover everything (SB1 5). By the time SB1 came out, they were slowly realizing that they'd need "several" world books.
Kevin wrote and released the RMB with the expectations that it would be successful enough to warrant a followup world book, but that's about it. He didn't know or dream that the game would take off like it did, and when he sold out the initial print run of 10,000 copies in three weeks (MOPs 107), and had the fans clamoring for more, getting flooded by phone calls from fans who wanted more, he was scrambling to make more product. He churned out the first Sourcebook just to satisfy customer demand (SB1 5), including the section on robots that had to be left out of the RMB due to space.
There was a lot of stuff that was changed from the RMB to SB1 to CB1 (And, for that matter, pretty regularly ever since), and part of the reason for some of the changes was the success of the game. The supernatural creature tables in the RMB were fantastic for a limited game like Palladium had produced in the past, but in order to fill the sort of shoes that the customers were demanding, Palladium had to crank out a lot of material fast.
In this haste, one of the fastest, easiest books Palladium could possibly have created would be one that re-used stuff that already existed, that drew on previous material. For example, a book that reprinted previous monsters and powers, with some tweaks that adjusted the previous material to the Rifts setting, freshening it up a bit, as well as fleshing out the setting of the world.
But the stuff in CB1 is stuff that was designed for other games and other settings, so with the release of that book, the amount of non-rifts creatures seemingly present on Rifts Earth overwhelmed the stuff presented in the RMB in a lot of ways.

This makes for a good narrative. Not sure if I buy all of it, but it is an interesting account. Perhaps somebody can ask Kevin at the Open House about the original scope of Rifts (in particular, about the supernatural) and whether it shifted in that first year or not?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are you assuming that robots are supposed to be a common problem for SDC communities on Rifts Earth?

They appear to be, at least wherever A.R.C.H.I.E. decides to send them. Skelebots are a similar problem for d-bee communities across a larger swath of land.

Killer Cyborg wrote:AFAIK, none of the monsters/creatures in SB1 had the same kind of vulnerabilities you see in the main book. So yes, that was also a departure, since some of those creatures were supernatural in nature.

Do you think the departure with those creatures was a result of the aforementioned rushing? Or had the tone actually shifted by then?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Were-creatures were, of course. Xibalbans are vulnerable to sliver. Ti-Xibalbans are vulnerable to fire. Cuchumaquiq was vulnerable to sunlight, silver, and some other stuff (in shadow form).
Dybbuk, Spider Demons, Mindolars, and Incubi/Succubi are NOT, but that falls in with the vulnerabilities being optional for intelligent supernatural monsters.
So VK stuck to the main book's pattern fairly well.

Touche. Though I'm still not convinced that a single table makes a pattern.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Not really... since those monsters had already been statted out. The problem wasn't the existence of the stuff in CB1, it's that such a large amount of them were dumped into a setting that had little else in the way of pre-made creatures.
The back of CB1 boasts "conversions for over 100 monsters and demons," although I haven't counted to verify that.
Compare "over 100" to "maybe a dozen or two" existing statted monsters that were made specifically for the game of Rifts at that time.

Have you compared the power levels (which should probably be defined somewhere, so we're all on the same page) between the existing monsters in the core books (including the random roll monsters) and those that were introduced in the successive books?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Because it was vastly different, and it changed a lot.

Perhaps we just have different tolerances and definitions for "vastly different" and "a lot"?

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Supernatural creatuers weren't the only enemy described, only the most common enemy overall.
Yes, there were xiticix. Yes, there were dinosaurs. Yes, there were fury beetles. Yes, there were bandits and the CS.
But the supernatural monster tables could generate a practically infinite number of races of supernatural creatures. I'm not going to do the math to figure out exactly how many races total could be generated just on stats alone, but the 5-6 other options are just a tiny drop in the ocean of possibilities that the RMB presented in the way of monsters/enemies. Even if you include every OCC in the RMB as a separate threat, it's still just a tiny drop in the ocean compared to supernatural creatures.

See, you appear to be treating the random roll monsters as this infinite source of unique enemies, then treat each enemy and O.C.C. as a static and separate threat, but I think that makes for bad math. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The random variations in each of the O.C.C.s should be treated the same as the random variations in supernatural creatures.

I'm just talking about general types, and being pretty generous by counting each OCC as its own type. Really, in combat, a rogue scholar is very much like a body fixer, and a headhunter (RMB) is a lot like a bandit or a grunt, as far as the kind of quick stats the monster tables and the back of the RMB provides.
Likewise, I'm not counting the fact that you could roll identical stats on the supernatural creature tables, and still end up with two different monster races. Or a dozen.

I'll grant you that mages and psychics are more versatile, though, and that they could be counted more than once to be fair.
But nowhere near enough to make up the differences.

I began to work out the possible permutations for the Supernatural Predator. After doing some quick calculator math, I got a number out to around 30 places. That's a big number, and it doesn't even include the Intelligent Supernatural Monster!

Then I started going through the character creation section and decided I'd save my sanity before I delved too deeply. There are too many randomly generated bits to come close to comparing. Certainly more than are provided in the Random Roll Monster tables in the back. The permutations in skill choice alone is staggering!

But, if you want the actual numbers, I suppose I can take some time this weekend to work through them all. I'll likely be grumpy at the end of it though!

Only count the kind of stuff that's described for the Bandits and CS troops at the back of the book before you calculate anything.
And don't count gear, because supernatural creatures can use gear too.
(some of them, anyway)

Killer Cyborg wrote:I see you making a lot of assumptions about the setting.

RMB 137
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector or group of protectors, much like the knights of old.
and
The concept of a champion who serves as protector and peacekeeper has been adopted by many towns and villages as well.

Note that "majority" and "many" is not the same as "all," or "as a rule."

Assumptions that have textual reference and support instead of relying on inference and speculation alone.

Assumptions that are countered by textual references, actually.

You are correct that many does not equate to all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:It would... BUT that philosophy wasn't solid. Vampires were originally supposed to be mega-damage creatures (RMB 12).

Funny you should mention pg. 12. In that same paragraph it has this bit:

"Some even have odd vulnerabilities, such as fire, sunlight, salt, or iron, which will hurt the supernatural fiend when bullets can't (unusual vulnerabilities will be noted in monster descriptions)."

Weren't you just saying something about some not being equivalent to all?

Yup.
But it was never my premise that "all" supernatural creatures had vulnerabilities, only that they did as a rule.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The game was was surprisingly successful beyond expectations, and it became much larger than originally envisioned. There was originally only supposed to be ONE world book that would cover everything (SB1 5). By the time SB1 came out, they were slowly realizing that they'd need "several" world books.
Kevin wrote and released the RMB with the expectations that it would be successful enough to warrant a followup world book, but that's about it. He didn't know or dream that the game would take off like it did, and when he sold out the initial print run of 10,000 copies in three weeks (MOPs 107), and had the fans clamoring for more, getting flooded by phone calls from fans who wanted more, he was scrambling to make more product. He churned out the first Sourcebook just to satisfy customer demand (SB1 5), including the section on robots that had to be left out of the RMB due to space.
There was a lot of stuff that was changed from the RMB to SB1 to CB1 (And, for that matter, pretty regularly ever since), and part of the reason for some of the changes was the success of the game. The supernatural creature tables in the RMB were fantastic for a limited game like Palladium had produced in the past, but in order to fill the sort of shoes that the customers were demanding, Palladium had to crank out a lot of material fast.
In this haste, one of the fastest, easiest books Palladium could possibly have created would be one that re-used stuff that already existed, that drew on previous material. For example, a book that reprinted previous monsters and powers, with some tweaks that adjusted the previous material to the Rifts setting, freshening it up a bit, as well as fleshing out the setting of the world.
But the stuff in CB1 is stuff that was designed for other games and other settings, so with the release of that book, the amount of non-rifts creatures seemingly present on Rifts Earth overwhelmed the stuff presented in the RMB in a lot of ways.

This makes for a good narrative. Not sure if I buy all of it, but it is an interesting account. Perhaps somebody can ask Kevin at the Open House about the original scope of Rifts (in particular, about the supernatural) and whether it shifted in that first year or not?

I cited my sources, so you can read up on things for yourself.
If anybody asks Kevin, they should be certain to phrase their question fairly.
I'd be happy with "In the RMB, it seemed that the large majority of supernatural creatures had vulnerabilities to silver, iron, and such. The game seems to have included less and less of that sort of thing over time. Was that a conscious decision?"
Or something like that.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are you assuming that robots are supposed to be a common problem for SDC communities on Rifts Earth?

They appear to be, at least wherever A.R.C.H.I.E. decides to send them. Skelebots are a similar problem for d-bee communities across a larger swath of land.

As of SB1, that seemed to pretty much be just one town for Archie's bots, IIRC. Not as large of a problem as supernatural creatures.
Same with skelebots, though there were more of them. Not really a large problem yet. A couple hundred were being used somehow in Minnesota, but that was about it.
Not something that most places had to worry about.

Killer Cyborg wrote:AFAIK, none of the monsters/creatures in SB1 had the same kind of vulnerabilities you see in the main book. So yes, that was also a departure, since some of those creatures were supernatural in nature.

Do you think the departure with those creatures was a result of the aforementioned rushing? Or had the tone actually shifted by then?

It's hard to say.
Maybe a bit of both?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Were-creatures were, of course. Xibalbans are vulnerable to sliver. Ti-Xibalbans are vulnerable to fire. Cuchumaquiq was vulnerable to sunlight, silver, and some other stuff (in shadow form).
Dybbuk, Spider Demons, Mindolars, and Incubi/Succubi are NOT, but that falls in with the vulnerabilities being optional for intelligent supernatural monsters.
So VK stuck to the main book's pattern fairly well.

Touche. Though I'm still not convinced that a single table makes a pattern.

Technically, there are two tables: 1 for Supernatural Predators, and 1 for Intelligent Supernatural Creatures.
With the first table, vulnerabilities were mandatory. For the second, they were still optional.
All you need is two points to indicate a line.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Not really... since those monsters had already been statted out. The problem wasn't the existence of the stuff in CB1, it's that such a large amount of them were dumped into a setting that had little else in the way of pre-made creatures.
The back of CB1 boasts "conversions for over 100 monsters and demons," although I haven't counted to verify that.
Compare "over 100" to "maybe a dozen or two" existing statted monsters that were made specifically for the game of Rifts at that time.

Have you compared the power levels (which should probably be defined somewhere, so we're all on the same page) between the existing monsters in the core books (including the random roll monsters) and those that were introduced in the successive books?

Nope. Could be interesting.
Although I suspect that we'd disagree on power levels.
That could be a thread in its own right.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Because it was vastly different, and it changed a lot.

Perhaps we just have different tolerances and definitions for "vastly different" and "a lot"?

Perhaps "vastly different" tolerances?

The thing is, I'm not just using myself as a standard. I've been on the forums a long time, and there are a number of recurring conversations/arguments that happen.
One of the ones that pops up pretty regularly is somebody asking, "How could any community survive on Rifts Earth, what with all the monsters?"
Or variants like, "How are there any SDC animals left on Earth?"
Or "Why would my character ever take off his armor? Wouldn't that get him instantly killed?"
And so forth.
It's not uncommon for people to envision Rifts Earth as a place where if you're not mega-damage capable, then your chances of survival are nil... but that's not how it was originally described.
Vagabonds were depicted as the closest OCC to The Common Man, and they didn't start off with any Mega-Damage gear at all. And the xiticix didn't have SDC bayonets for nothing. And the CS presumably used the SDC setting on their laser rifle fairly regularly, just as all the SDC gear that various OCCs start off with was intended to be used.

If you are new to the game Rifts Ultimate Edition is all you need. It has all the rules, the setting, and character creation information for the core classes. While Rifts has tons of books, it is one of the lowest costs in getting started. Add books as you decide you want to explore the Megaverse.

The RUE is light on creatures, and Rifts does not really have a monster manual. The closest things may be D-Bees of North America, Conversion Book 1, and Dark Conversions, but even these do not work like the creature books of other game systems. In Rifts you most often create opponents from another faction. For example, the band of player heroes protects a town from a group of bandits or alien slavers.

The RUE does not have a premade adventure, so you need to write your own or get a premade adventure. Many Rifts books provide "Hook, Line, and Sinker" plot ideas. The Rifts Adventure Guide is a good adventure resource for Rifts and even other game systems. Rifts is a challenge for creating adventures without knowing the characters in the party, because the class powers vary dramatically. Before writing a Rifts adventure it helps to know the combat power, the power armor, and the magic power in the party. There are adventures available in some source books and editions of the Rifter. The adventures in Sourcebook 1 for ARCHIE and Sourcebook 2 for Mechanoids may help to get started.

For a new Rifts Game Master, I recommend to encourage the players to start with classes of similar power levels. From the RUE most of classes are good in a mix, but Glitterboys, Robot Pilots, and Baby Dragons can jump to a higher power level. It is more tricky when you mix different power classes of the same category. For example, a Glitterboy and CS Grunt are both man at arms types, but the Glitterboy is far more powerful in dealing and taking damage. It takes practice to manage this and maintain the fun for both players. Mixing a man at arms and practitioner of magic or a psychic at different power levels may not be a big deal. Their key abilities are in very different areas, so they naturally compliment each other.

Feel free to ask more.

Back to the original question and less about who's childhood was destroyed by what and how.
Other than the mainbook, I personal suggest mercenaries, juicer uprising, and atlantis.
Vampire kingdoms is good but not necessary unless you know you wanna fight or be vampires. Sourcebook one was good but id reather have england, one of the only books with dimisional plants in it. To me thats win ohhhh and the best magic class in the whole system for a PC.
I would get the original source book one if you can it was flat out better with the dragons and all. It also had witches and elementals and yeah it was sweet.
After that federation of magic for sure for sure.
I would get new west over spirt west.
I would get cs war machine next then ngr one.
Id skip Australia just flat out wasnt my cup of tea
Japan rocked my imagination but if your not going there its really issolated.
Id then buy africa if only for necromancers.
Then i would buy both South America books the are wonderfull and rich.
I would again skip both China books, they are extermly remote, and the demons arent in the minnon wars there for they are dead to me .....hehehe.
Then just pick stuff that sounds interesting.
Dimension books wise Wormwood griped my young mind hard, but phase world is much more flushed out and really good too.
Anyhow, thats how I see it.

Zamion138 wrote:I would get the original source book one if you can it was flat out better with the dragons and all. It also had witches and elementals and yeah it was sweet.

I believe you mean conversion book one, not source book one, right?

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:I would get the original source book one if you can it was flat out better with the dragons and all. It also had witches and elementals and yeah it was sweet.

I believe you mean conversion book one, not source book one, right?

I did......good catch.
Conversion book 1 original is goodness.

Zamion138 wrote:

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:I would get the original source book one if you can it was flat out better with the dragons and all. It also had witches and elementals and yeah it was sweet.

I believe you mean conversion book one, not source book one, right?

I did......good catch.
Conversion book 1 original is goodness.

CB1 is one of the best books. I've heard nothing good about the revised version.

--flatline

I never liked CB1 or Revised. I personally don't allow crossovers, and therefore limited it's use.

flatline wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:I would get the original source book one if you can it was flat out better with the dragons and all. It also had witches and elementals and yeah it was sweet.

I believe you mean conversion book one, not source book one, right?

I did......good catch.
Conversion book 1 original is goodness.

CB1 is one of the best books. I've heard nothing good about the revised version.

--flatline

It's not as good.

How come?


Daniel Stoker

Tiree wrote:I never liked CB1 or Revised. I personally don't allow crossovers, and therefore limited it's use.

Yeah but at least in the first ed of it you had ,elves ,dwarves, dragons of all varieties, warlocks, witches, ect.
So even if your not allowing conversions or port overs from other lines you kinda need that for alot of the other source matrials. Espicaly the elementals and elemental magic.

Just for that alone its great book, I dont allow hu powers in my rifts games so that parts never come up as usefull but when england says their are pucks and pixies in the woods its nice to have stats for them right?

Zamion138 wrote:

Tiree wrote:I never liked CB1 or Revised. I personally don't allow crossovers, and therefore limited it's use.

Yeah but at least in the first ed of it you had ,elves ,dwarves, dragons of all varieties, warlocks, witches, ect.
So even if your not allowing conversions or port overs from other lines you kinda need that for alot of the other source matrials. Espicaly the elementals and elemental magic.

Just for that alone its great book, I dont allow hu powers in my rifts games so that parts never come up as usefull but when england says their are pucks and pixies in the woods its nice to have stats for them right?

Not really needed in my games. I play with the Main Book, SB1 and WB1

Tiree wrote:I never liked CB1 or Revised. I personally don't allow crossovers, and therefore limited it's use.

To each his own. I love crossovers.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Tiree wrote:I never liked CB1 or Revised. I personally don't allow crossovers, and therefore limited it's use.

To each his own. I love crossovers.

--flatline

I just wanted to point out that - even if you have CB1 and you love yours. There are folks who did not like it, along with CB1 Revised, which I own both, and found that neither changed my opinion on the book.

I don't need a book of Monsters (Other World Books provide enough)
I don't need a book on Elemental Magic (Book of Magic covers this)
A lot of material was reprinted from CB1. It could be condensed by quite a bit.

That could be said about a lot of books within Rifts.

I'm eager to see what Pinnacle does with the license, and what they focus on. How much leeway they have, and if they are going to do a 'True Conversion' or a 'Spin' on it. I hope that some freelancers from Palladium cross over to help flesh them out quickly. And I hope that PB doesn't become a bottleneck for the game.

Tiree wrote:

flatline wrote:

Tiree wrote:I never liked CB1 or Revised. I personally don't allow crossovers, and therefore limited it's use.

To each his own. I love crossovers.

--flatline

I just wanted to point out that - even if you have CB1 and you love yours. There are folks who did not like it, along with CB1 Revised, which I own both, and found that neither changed my opinion on the book.

I don't need a book of Monsters (Other World Books provide enough)
I don't need a book on Elemental Magic (Book of Magic covers this)
A lot of material was reprinted from CB1. It could be condensed by quite a bit.

That could be said about a lot of books within Rifts.

I'm eager to see what Pinnacle does with the license, and what they focus on. How much leeway they have, and if they are going to do a 'True Conversion' or a 'Spin' on it. I hope that some freelancers from Palladium cross over to help flesh them out quickly. And I hope that PB doesn't become a bottleneck for the game.

If Pinnacle can capture the flavor of the setting without bringing along any of the baggage (like MD and attacks per melee), then I'm certainly interested.

--flatline

Daniel Stoker wrote:How come?
Daniel Stoker

It just does a lot of weird things.
Chi powers as psionics.
Robot PS bonus in MD melee.
Nerfs some powers.

To play rifts all you need is either the original book or RUE all others are optional some come highly recommended some are more sand box books.