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So I have a few players with Supernatural Strength. They came up with an idea. What would happen if they punched into the chest cavity of a vampire, pulled the heart out and crushed it.

Very little, since vampires are animated corpses whose hearts are of no real importance.

akito wrote:So I have a few players with Supernatural Strength. They came up with an idea. What would happen if they punched into the chest cavity of a vampire, pulled the heart out and crushed it.

depends on how you interpret other aspects.

for example stakeing, a vampire immediately incapitates it. now personally I interpet it as the heart is a VITAL organ for a Vampire, but stopping it from functioning doesn't actually kill them if the Heart can be restored. So one of 2 things would happen IMO.

option 1 they are treated as if they were Staked, with the complication that the heart needs to be reconnected before they can recover.

option 2 they are really truly dead. (I tend to discount this option actually as its a bit too cheesy. )

obviously others have different opinions such as Nightmask's
(basically nothing happens)

Technically by the rules, they would do punching damage (there are no rules to allow you to just rip through a person and remove an internal organ). Then when the HP was reduced to 0 you could, presumably remove the heart. But since you didn't stake the heart, or destroy the vampire by water or sunlight or any of the other approved ways....it will simply regenerate the damage like it would from any other damage.

akito wrote:So I have a few players with Supernatural Strength. They came up with an idea. What would happen if they punched into the chest cavity of a vampire, pulled the heart out and crushed it.

Won't matter, they will regenerate a new one.

Only staking the heart prevents regeneration.

eliakon wrote:Technically by the rules, they would do punching damage (there are no rules to allow you to just rip through a person and remove an internal organ). Then when the HP was reduced to 0 you could, presumably remove the heart. But since you didn't stake the heart, or destroy the vampire by water or sunlight or any of the other approved ways....it will simply regenerate the damage like it would from any other damage.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

akito wrote:So I have a few players with Supernatural Strength. They came up with an idea. What would happen if they punched into the chest cavity of a vampire, pulled the heart out and crushed it.

Won't matter, they will regenerate a new one.

Only staking the heart prevents regeneration.

Yup.

Vampires are mostly vulnerable to the symbolic when it comes to stuff like that, the wooden stake being linked to nature and blah blah. you could maybe beat one into a bloody pulp and buy some time while it regenerates but just remember your training and you will get out of this alive.

personally i'd have the heart crumble to dust once it was removed, and a new one regenerate in the chest.. at best you just ticked it off while it's at a convenient biting distance.

you gotta stake it (after which, IIRC, all but the skeleton will crumble to dust anyway, at least until the stake is removed)

Hearts are only involved with stasis, to kill them requires complete bodily destruction by sun/water/fire

Tor wrote:Hearts are only involved with stasis, to kill them requires complete bodily destruction by sun/water/fire

my point was that you could actually make a semi reasonable argument that ripping out the heart is as disruptive to their functioning as staking them, and thus leaves them immediately vulnerable to the "easy" methods of destruction such as tossing the incapacitated vampire into a lake/river, or leaving them out in direct sunlight (such as tied to a post, or a stump or similar) or burning and there is nothing the vampire themselves can do to save themselves.

Well besides the obvious difficulty in doing so ... ie the vampire would need to be out of hit points or somehow incapacitated ...

I would simply say that destroying the heart to do a significant amount of damage pushing the monster even further into the negatives, but at no point would it be considered close to a final death.

I think if you tore out the heart they would just grow a new one. The idea is that there is a heart which is impaled by interference.

You can blast the heart to dust entirely with a giant magical plasma beam and it would just regrow.

guardiandashi wrote:

Tor wrote:Hearts are only involved with stasis, to kill them requires complete bodily destruction by sun/water/fire

my point was that you could actually make a semi reasonable argument that ripping out the heart is as disruptive to their functioning as staking them, and thus leaves them immediately vulnerable to the "easy" methods of destruction such as tossing the incapacitated vampire into a lake/river, or leaving them out in direct sunlight (such as tied to a post, or a stump or similar) or burning and there is nothing the vampire themselves can do to save themselves.

Yes, if you wish to make a house rule to change how vampires work for your game go right ahead. The canon rule is that only staking has any affect, even massive damage (like rail gun blasts to the heart) are regenerated unless the shard (which must be wood or silver) stays in the heart staking it. A change to the vampire making their heart now a 'weak point' for simple damage would be a possible change.
Although it opens up a can of worms like "how do you get at the heart through the body" "can I target the heart with other things" "can a vampire regenerate a lost heart?" If they can not, then you have made a new way for them to be destroyed (if they can not regenerate from heart loss, then every time someone takes out a heart that vampire is out of the fight until it is regenerated by an external source)
Personally, I would probably just award xp for "clever but futile idea" say "sorry, that's a nice plan....but it will just regenerate it." and move on. But its your game, you can always do what you feel improves the story in your game. If that makes your game better than by all means go for it and have fun.

akito wrote:So I have a few players with Supernatural Strength. They came up with an idea. What would happen if they punched into the chest cavity of a vampire, pulled the heart out and crushed it.

I have to agree with everyone else.

However, this does bring up an interesting question. If a creature stabbed a vampire through the heart (on a called strike) with a sword that was not silver but some sort of Holy Weapon that did increased damage to evil creatures (A sword from the Palladium Universe, enchanted to do holy MD, or the Seraph's sword), would it still go into stasis, or would this be a very painful way to experience heartbreak and nothing more?

Also, if a vamp is completely obliterated, can it regenerate? Methinks not, because there would be nothing left to regenerate from.

holy weapons are generally magical, so that would fall under the "magic and psionics" aspect of their limited vulnerbility

glitterboy2098 wrote:holy weapons are generally magical, so that would fall under the "magic and psionics" aspect of their limited vulnerbility

And even if it wasn't I would think that a specific 'this is good against undead' would trump a blanket 'immune to stuff'
This is especially important because things have been added to the game later that explicitly harm vampires that are not in the general listing (U-rounds, the spells Undo Undead and Destroy Undead Flesh both come to mind)

Under staking a vampire, it pretty much spells out that only wood and silver will force stasis on a vampire.

So, while it would be possible to use a weapon that can harm a vampire (magical in some way) to stake them through the heart, unless it is made of wood or silver it won't force them into stasis. The vampire however will be both hurt and pissed by this (then again most people would), and you are now likely in range for a rather vicious counter attack.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some vampires might willingly do this to get into striking range to deal with an enemy. Yes it would hurt like hell, but it also traps the enemy's weapon that could otherwise reduce a vampire's HPs to zero. The idea of a vampire pulling itself along a magical metal spear to get at the one holding it is a powerful and frightening image... and one I could see vampires doing.

Remember, vampires don't really see pain the same way humans do... their regenerative powers makes nearly any pain they feel more of an inconvenience than an actual indication of a threat/danger. The idea of suffering some minor and temporary pain to achieve an objective is very likely an acceptable choice to many... especially since so few things can actually harm them.

Now imagining a vampire pulling itself along a dragon's arm, pulling the claw deeper through its back, the dragon struggling to morph to get free, or try to teleport, as the vampire bites into the dragon's abdomen.

Tor wrote:Now imagining a vampire pulling itself along a dragon's arm, pulling the claw deeper through its back, the dragon struggling to morph to get free, or try to teleport, as the vampire bites into the dragon's abdomen.

Humm... Lets see...

A Dragon being a 'Magical' being does real hit point damage to the Vampire either grabs it by the neck and squeezes until the head pops off or just bites its head off and spits it out.

Being with Supernatural Strength do real hit point damage to Vampires so they too can just beat it into incapacity and stake it out for sunrise.

And most vampires don't have a lot of Hit Points to play around with either....so once you start damaging them they go down pretty quickly.

SpiritInterface wrote:

Tor wrote:Now imagining a vampire pulling itself along a dragon's arm, pulling the claw deeper through its back, the dragon struggling to morph to get free, or try to teleport, as the vampire bites into the dragon's abdomen.

Humm... Lets see...

A Dragon being a 'Magical' being does real hit point damage to the Vampire either grabs it by the neck and squeezes until the head pops off or just bites its head off and spits it out.

Being with Supernatural Strength do real hit point damage to Vampires so they too can just beat it into incapacity and stake it out for sunrise.

Yes a dragon could keep beating a vampire down the only problem is baring a dragon that can shoot water it would have problems actually killing the vampire and given the regeneration rates of vampires when not staked it won't stay down for any length of time. Its going to pop back up almost instantly after getting dropped to zero.

Dragons vs vampires winds up being like a giant kitten fight. Lots of howling and scratching and clawing but actual lasting damage is minimal. The dragon can't really kill a vampire baring using a wood stake or water magic and the vampires are unlikely to be able to do enough damage to the dragon fast enough to overcome its bio regen.

Worst case scenario if vampires get unlucky it can simply turn to mist and evade the fight and if the dragon starts losing they can teleport away and heal up.

eliakon wrote:And most vampires don't have a lot of Hit Points to play around with either....so once you start damaging them they go down pretty quickly.

Yes they do go down fast but baring using one of the ways of killing them permanently or staking them "killing" them one round winds up with them back up to almost full health a few moments later. Its not their HP that makes them tough its the fact that baring a few specific methods they simply don't stay down that is the issue.

Vampire Oh no this guy is beating me up oh wait Mist form. Then return with 7 of his bodies, kind of how vampires work.

Blue_Lion wrote:Vampire Oh no this guy is beating me up oh wait Mist form. Then return with 7 of his bodies, kind of how vampires work.

Yes the mistform makes them really really hard to actually kill off. If they are losing they can break out of nearly any fight unless you manage to stake them or kill them outright with water or sunlight. The last vampire book did add some rules that if you were inflicting enough pain on them with silver or sunlight you could keep them from mistforming or make it harder for them to do so but even with that its a pain.


Vampires are basically nasty undead roaches you can keep stepping on them but its hard to take them out without them just breaking off the fight and coming back with more reinforcements. It is why its really dangerously easy for vampire hunters to wind up in over their heads and getting swarmed.

kaid wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:

Tor wrote:Now imagining a vampire pulling itself along a dragon's arm, pulling the claw deeper through its back, the dragon struggling to morph to get free, or try to teleport, as the vampire bites into the dragon's abdomen.

Humm... Lets see...

A Dragon being a 'Magical' being does real hit point damage to the Vampire either grabs it by the neck and squeezes until the head pops off or just bites its head off and spits it out.

Being with Supernatural Strength do real hit point damage to Vampires so they too can just beat it into incapacity and stake it out for sunrise.

Yes a dragon could keep beating a vampire down the only problem is baring a dragon that can shoot water it would have problems actually killing the vampire and given the regeneration rates of vampires when not staked it won't stay down for any length of time. Its going to pop back up almost instantly after getting dropped to zero.

Dragons vs vampires winds up being like a giant kitten fight. Lots of howling and scratching and clawing but actual lasting damage is minimal. The dragon can't really kill a vampire baring using a wood stake or water magic and the vampires are unlikely to be able to do enough damage to the dragon fast enough to overcome its bio regen.

Worst case scenario if vampires get unlucky it can simply turn to mist and evade the fight and if the dragon starts losing they can teleport away and heal up.

All the Dragon needs to do is enough damage to incapacitate the vampire which he can do fairly quickly, then wait for dawn. 2D6 hit points every 15 seconds isn't that fast of regeneration. If the vampire runs then it runs, in a straight up fight the vampire loses.

SpiritInterface wrote:A Dragon being a 'Magical' being does real hit point damage to the Vampire either grabs it by the neck and squeezes until the head pops off or just bites its head off and spits it out.

This would be nice if we actually had decent rules for stuff like neck-grabbing, squeeze-til-ya-pop or decapitation.

Even when it comes to Dead Reign where the Undead have far more specialty rules for cool stuff involving that region I wouldn't actually know how to do the first. The 2nd we at least have bite damage but... even then, hard rolls to make (no bonuses and all)

SpiritInterface wrote:

kaid wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:

Tor wrote:Now imagining a vampire pulling itself along a dragon's arm, pulling the claw deeper through its back, the dragon struggling to morph to get free, or try to teleport, as the vampire bites into the dragon's abdomen.

Humm... Lets see...

A Dragon being a 'Magical' being does real hit point damage to the Vampire either grabs it by the neck and squeezes until the head pops off or just bites its head off and spits it out.

Being with Supernatural Strength do real hit point damage to Vampires so they too can just beat it into incapacity and stake it out for sunrise.

Yes a dragon could keep beating a vampire down the only problem is baring a dragon that can shoot water it would have problems actually killing the vampire and given the regeneration rates of vampires when not staked it won't stay down for any length of time. Its going to pop back up almost instantly after getting dropped to zero.

Dragons vs vampires winds up being like a giant kitten fight. Lots of howling and scratching and clawing but actual lasting damage is minimal. The dragon can't really kill a vampire baring using a wood stake or water magic and the vampires are unlikely to be able to do enough damage to the dragon fast enough to overcome its bio regen.

Worst case scenario if vampires get unlucky it can simply turn to mist and evade the fight and if the dragon starts losing they can teleport away and heal up.

All the Dragon needs to do is enough damage to incapacitate the vampire which he can do fairly quickly, then wait for dawn. 2D6 hit points every 15 seconds isn't that fast of regeneration. If the vampire runs then it runs, in a straight up fight the vampire loses.

A fight with one vampire and one dragon tends to end in stalemate where eventually the vampire gets bored and leaves. The dragon for the most part would have a hard time killing a vampire where the vampire can simply go mist form and wait a minute or two and be full health and the dragon is capable of similar levels of healing. So a dragon can stomp and smash and crush and rip them limb from limb as much as he wants but without a stake/water/daylight he won't kill the vamp and has almost no way to prevent it from breaking off at will.

On the flip side given dragons stupidly high regen rates a single vampire probably cannot muster enough damage fast enough to really seriously endanger the dragon.

IIRC, the vampire's Killing Bite does like 1d6x10 to dragons.

Killer Cyborg wrote:IIRC, the vampire's Killing Bite does like 1d6x10 to dragons.

It did in the old book. I'm not sure what it is now.

But given how fast dragons regen and I believe the killing bite is a two attack power move prone to being disrupted a single vampire is unlikely to do enough damage to seriously endanger a dragon. The dragon would have plenty of time to teleport away if things were going bad for them and like vamps a couple minutes of healing negates most or all of the damage of the fight.

I've seen a lot of dragons die from bad rolls when trying to teleport.

The problem with discussion like this is it tends to turn into circular 'what if' fests....kind of a"'well I do A" "oh yah, well I do B' "well then I do C"....
If your not prepared vampires are very hard to kill, that's pretty much a given.
If you are prepared the ease with which they can be killed becomes "It depends" There are a huge number of variables (like what edition of the rules your using to start with!) Some of those variables are not even quantifiable in canon currently (Power bites for example...when do they go off? Can they be interrupted? If they can be, what will do so? Canon is unclear on this).

Could a winged dragon try to teleport mid-flight ? Might be one way to get some distance from a vamp, although I think vamps can use killing bite while in bat form, so not a permanent escape.

Come to think of it, you could mist or bat, fly above an enemy, then morph into human or wolf and drop on them

The way I see it is as unlikely for a single vampire to kill a dragon as it is for a dragon to kill a vampire both have the powers to disengage the other at will. (Hard to ride something that can change shape to throw you off and the dragon could stun the vampire hitch hiker with direct attacks. while the vampire can mist away.)

If we're talking hatchling, the sheer speed a dragon regens at is simply much better.

We're talking 40d6 per 5 minutes versus 10d4. Even going by minimums (advantage dragon) the vampire heals 4x faster.

Tor wrote:If we're talking hatchling, the sheer speed a dragon regens at is simply much better.

We're talking 40d6 per 5 minutes versus 10d4. Even going by minimums (advantage dragon) the vampire heals 4x faster.

I was going off the fact that by themselves the both lack the power to kill the other one on one.

A vampire's very much able to kill a dragon, and it shouldn't be that hard for a dragon to find a branch to stake a vamp with. Horneds/Fires could then use theri fire breath to burn the separated head/torso. Ice/Thunder/RUE hatchlings would have to sit on the staked corpse til sunrise or else find a stream tho.

Tor wrote:A vampire's very much able to kill a dragon, and it shouldn't be that hard for a dragon to find a branch to stake a vamp with. Horneds/Fires could then use theri fire breath to burn the separated head/torso. Ice/Thunder/RUE hatchlings would have to sit on the staked corpse til sunrise or else find a stream tho.

If I recall right they can only use fire a few times per round takes a sustained fire to properly finish the vampire. If there are even branches around to use to stake it and sitting on something that can turn to mist does not work. (Note that typically requires the dragon knows that it is a vampire and knows proper way to kill it. Something many hatchlings may not.) You also missed the whole by itself part of it using a branch to stake it would require something else besides the dragon and the dragon having knowledge of where a humanoids heart is. Many people do not the exact spot where the heart is. So for a hatchling that has never encountered a vampire and is not human you are meta-gaming to win.

The dragon can get away from a lone vampire if it gets in trouble typically with flight, or teleporting. The vampire can damage the dragon but odds are will not kill it before the dragon stuns it. Been a while since I read it but I believe there are conditions that trigger the KO'd vampire going to mist. And knocking it out over and over would get old not really worth the dragons time.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Tor wrote:A vampire's very much able to kill a dragon, and it shouldn't be that hard for a dragon to find a branch to stake a vamp with. Horneds/Fires could then use theri fire breath to burn the separated head/torso. Ice/Thunder/RUE hatchlings would have to sit on the staked corpse til sunrise or else find a stream tho.

If I recall right they can only use fire a few times per round takes a sustained fire to properly finish the vampire. If there are even branches around to use to stake it and sitting on something that can turn to mist does not work. (Note that typically requires the dragon knows that it is a vampire and knows proper way to kill it. Something many hatchlings may not.) You also missed the whole by itself part of it using a branch to stake it would require something else besides the dragon and the dragon having knowledge of where a humanoids heart is. Many people do not the exact spot where the heart is. So for a hatchling that has never encountered a vampire and is not human you are meta-gaming to win.

The dragon can get away from a lone vampire if it gets in trouble typically with flight, or teleporting. The vampire can damage the dragon but odds are will not kill it before the dragon stuns it. Been a while since I read it but I believe there are conditions that trigger the KO'd vampire going to mist. And knocking it out over and over would get old not really worth the dragons time.

As much as I don't really want to try and referee this game of cops and robbers.....

-Unless we are talking a 'only out of the egg minutes' hatchling then making any assumptions either way about how much it knows about humanoid physiology and vampire weaknesses is just that. An assumption.
-if the dragon can do enough damage to the vampire it will be unconscious until it heals that damage. If the dragon keeps on damaging it it would be possible to simply keep it there in a coma until sunrise. You cant turn into mist if your unconscious. (And if your taking damage you can be interrupted as per the most recent rules on vampires).
-I would say that based on the books dragons are vindictive enough to want to make sure that an enemy is fully dead and doesn't come back (thus it could be worth the dragons time to make sure the vampire is dead)
-If the dragon is level two or higher it may have any of a number of spells that could be useful for killing/subduing the vampire
-The vampire could use its rather vast mind control powers to try and subvert the dragons will.

In bat form a vampire can fly 35mph so yeah even a Fire/Ice could outpace them at 50 and the Horned is even faster, but I do wonder how long they can keep it up. Can both fly indefinitely with supernatural endurance, neither needing food or sleep? Though I guess with a vamp you only have to outlast it til dawn.

Tor wrote:In bat form a vampire can fly 35mph so yeah even a Fire/Ice could outpace them at 50 and the Horned is even faster, but I do wonder how long they can keep it up. Can both fly indefinitely with supernatural endurance, neither needing food or sleep? Though I guess with a vamp you only have to outlast it til dawn.

Conversion book One says dragons can go on full physical activity for up to six months without stopping for rest, food, or sleep. They'll definatly get a good lead during the day.*

Any being that can deal hitpoint damage to a vampire SHOULD be allowed the most awesome 1970's dude heart rip out kill.
It looks cookies sounds cool and is cool

Cool factor alone is enough.
A morphed dragon wearing a leather jacket and smoking a cigar, tears out a vampires heart and the vampire dies.