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In the RUE, on the inside of the front cover is a building labeled Wilk's in what I can assume is the Chi-Town 'Burbs; I have a couple of problems with that. First, Wilk's is outlawed by the CS, to the point that Wilk's makes most of the electronics in everything but they have to keep it secret. The other is, the CS periodically razes the 'Burbs, so are skyscrapers really plausible?
Also, ley lines are straight, yet in the first two pictures in the first colored pictures section, they curve. One is the world with ley lines spanning around the world. They are not that long on any of the localized maps in the books. Then the next picture has a ley line curving through a mountain pass.

So what gives?

The artists genearlly get outlines of what something should look like, and then fill it in with their own vision.

these do not always match game text.

Remember: the way book publishing works is, generally by necessity, artists have to start drawing art for the book before the sections of the book are completed, or sometimes even started more than an outline format. which means the artist may be writing based on the outline during the pre-production stage, only to have written canon be changed--but there's no time to go back and commission new art, resulting in artifacts. for the wilks example, Wilks being outlawed in the CS was probablly thrown in at the last minute--well after the burb picture was already drawn. even if there is time to commission new art, there is not always budget to do so.

If my memory serves, Wilks isn't outlawed in the CS. Their weapons are now. They did other things, optics, laser scaples, etc as well.

The "old town burbs' are more built up with buildings and the like. Not all of the burbs are razed, parts are.

Personally, I think illustrations are canon. They build the setting the same as words do, only with a different technique. Most people on the boards do not agree with me though, they choose to take text over illustrations to avoid any contradiction. To me, the contraction already exists within text on many issues, so you are dealing with that anyway.

But as far as Wilks being in the burbs, Pepsi's explanation seems logical.

Kagashi wrote:Personally, I think illustrations are canon. They build the setting the same as words do, only with a different technique.

The problem with that attitude is that it ignores the Doylist problem with RPG art. That is, artists for roleplaying books are typically given short descriptions of things and narrow windows of time in which to get them done. Pair that up with being contract employees rather than company employees most of the time, and you wind up with situations where you're often very lucky to get something that looks similar to what the writer was imagining, let alone identical to it.

Chuck actually went over the artist/writer interaction in one of his posts explaining how he does his art for Palladium. While 100% translation from mind to paper visual is impossible, it's not like they get 'Draw robot with pew pew bang stick" and then turn in something random. It's a bit more than that and there are concept sketches and back and forth.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The "old town burbs' are more built up with buildings and the like. Not all of the burbs are razed, parts are.

Confirmed. The description from Forbidden Knowledge indicates that the oldest of the established 'Burbs is something like 86 years old.

The Coalition flattens large portions of the 'Burbs, mostly the outer periphery of shanty towns, when things get weird or the brass want to flex their muscles. They're smart enough to recognize a resource when they see one though, and the stable, mostly loyal, oldtowns provide a huge workforce as well as a recruiting base for the military. Wilk's may even have a small manufacturing complex in one of the older 'Burbs to churn out cheap radios and other consumer electronics.

Also, check out this bit from RUE.

RUE, p.239 wrote:Though the <laser weapons> are on par with (and in many cases, superior to) the Coalition States, the nation does not feel threatened by Wilk's and has let it survive largely unmolested - or at least that's the Coalition's official position.

It doesn't really sound like they're seizing Wilk's products as contraband.

Kagashi wrote:Personally, I think illustrations are canon. They build the setting the same as words do, only with a different technique. Most people on the boards do not agree with me though, they choose to take text over illustrations to avoid any contradiction. To me, the contraction already exists within text on many issues, so you are dealing with that anyway.

But as far as Wilks being in the burbs, Pepsi's explanation seems logical.

Contradiction exists within art as well.

Regardless, if art is canon, then man... Humans are a VERY funky looking bunch in Rifts Earth.
They look like freakin' cartoons, and most of them are made of black-and-white lines.

So a building that may be old enough to pre-date the current Coalition (Certainly probably older than the ban-on Wilks weapons) and probably is just an office/plant that produces one of the myriad of legal Wilks products using the large pool of cheap labor in the burbs is seen as a problem?
Remember not all buildings have to be pre-rifts, they do have the ability to build new buildings. Wilks is certainly capable of building a plant. And if it built that plant say.....60 years ago, then the building is going to be pretty tattered by now......

Okay, getting past the Wilk's issue...
What about the ley lines? They're not that big and not curved, can we agree on that?

I agree it is not an accurate depiction. Per the rulebook, a ley line may be as much as a mile wide and 10 miles long. A more accurate picture would probably look like the planet is covered in jagged cracks, like a shattered pane of glass, with lines converging and diffusing from nexus points rather than sweeping across the planet. It's pretty dramatic though, isn't it?

HarleeKnight wrote:Okay, getting past the Wilk's issue...
What about the ley lines? They're not that big and not curved, can we agree on that?

I actually asked Kevin about this one, and no, they're not big enough to circle the globe like that. He just thought it was cool artwork, not that it was accurate artwork.

I didn't ask about curving, but since the Earth's surface curves, and they seem to conform to the surface, I'd saw there was some degree of curve to them.

Bill wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Also, check out this bit from RUE.

RUE, p.239 wrote:Though the <laser weapons> are on par with (and in many cases, superior to) the Coalition States, the nation does not feel threatened by Wilk's and has let it survive largely unmolested - or at least that's the Coalition's official position.

It doesn't really sound like they're seizing Wilk's products as contraband.

Policy has changed, Bill. In a book released after RUE, Wilks weapons are no longer allowed with in the CS. If caught with them they are seized, and again it's been a few months since I read the passage, a beating might be handed out?

Bill wrote:I agree it is not an accurate depiction. Per the rulebook, a ley line may be as much as a mile wide and 10 miles long. A more accurate picture would probably look like the planet is covered in jagged cracks, like a shattered pane of glass, with lines converging and diffusing from nexus points rather than sweeping across the planet. It's pretty dramatic though, isn't it?

"As much as" doesn't invalidate smaller ones. It's an upper limit. Not a lower one.

Bill wrote:I agree it is not an accurate depiction. Per the rulebook, a ley line may be as much as a mile wide and 10 miles long. A more accurate picture would probably look like the planet is covered in jagged cracks, like a shattered pane of glass, with lines converging and diffusing from nexus points rather than sweeping across the planet. It's pretty dramatic though, isn't it?

Which of course is then contrasted by the fact that we have canon ley lines that are more than ten miles long....which means that we can assume that there are ley lines of significant length.
As for 'curving' I don't see why they couldn't be 'effectively' curved since they follow the surface of the earth.

blackwingedheaven wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Personally, I think illustrations are canon. They build the setting the same as words do, only with a different technique.

The problem with that attitude is that it ignores the Doylist problem with RPG art. That is, artists for roleplaying books are typically given short descriptions of things and narrow windows of time in which to get them done. Pair that up with being contract employees rather than company employees most of the time, and you wind up with situations where you're often very lucky to get something that looks similar to what the writer was imagining, let alone identical to it.

The same as when the author writes words that contradict the editor's (KS) vision and its changed. It comes with the territory.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Contradiction exists within art as well.

Regardless, if art is canon, then man... Humans are a VERY funky looking bunch in Rifts Earth.
They look like freakin' cartoons, and most of them are made of black-and-white lines.

.

Why not? The game is about magic, dragons, and demons too. Canon doesnt have to mimic reality.

Robotech is done in Anime style, and it still has a canon. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is made up of both live action TV/movies and comic books...both of which are still a canon within that universe. Why does canon have to represent reality?

Kagashi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Contradiction exists within art as well.

Regardless, if art is canon, then man... Humans are a VERY funky looking bunch in Rifts Earth.
They look like freakin' cartoons, and most of them are made of black-and-white lines.

.

Why not? The game is about magic, dragons, and demons too. Canon doesnt have to mimic reality.

Robotech is done in Anime style, and it still has a canon. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is made up of both live action TV/movies and comic books...both of which are still a canon within that universe. Why does canon have to represent reality?

Not really sure what you're saying.

You seem to think that illustrations are not canon because they do not depict actual people, actual mutant dogs, actual dragons...etc. But text is canon...even though it talks about mutant dogs and dragons, etc.

Where does it say that canon has to represent reality? Canon is whatever the creator says it is. So what if humans are represented with ink and paper?

Kagashi wrote:You seem to think that illustrations are not canon because they do not depict actual people, actual mutant dogs, actual dragons...etc. But text is canon...even though it talks about mutant dogs and dragons, etc.

Where does it say that canon has to represent reality? Canon is whatever the creator says it is. So what if humans are represented with ink and paper?

Canon doesn't have to represent reality.
It just represents reality in the game.
That's what makes it canon.

If art is canon, then there's a woman running around who's composed of black and white lines, with a little scroll floating near her that says "Breaux," according to RUE 118.
She's got literally paper-white skin, and some weird lines coming out of her hand sometimes.
There are ruins of a city somewhere (SB1 32) that are likewise black-and-white, where the sky is not only white instead of blue, but is also completely devoid of clouds or any kind of shading.

Sometimes, when two robots fight (SB1 46), there are speed lines in the air when they punch each other, and when pieces of the robots fly off in different directions.

Also, the SDF-1 is in Atlantis, parked in amongst the buildings.

What book describes the CS banning Wilk's weapons?

--flatline

Source Book 1 Revised has this new CS policy. It is under the Wilk's equipment section pg 67

"All Wilk's weapons are outlawed in the Coalition States. If CS authorities find a Wilk's weapon on a human, the weapon will be confiscated by authorities, and the owner may be fined 1,000-10,000 credits depending on the circumstances upon which it was discovered and the type of weapon (concealed and heavy weapons get the greater fines). The person might also be "detained" and questioned. Depending on the specific Coalition law enforcement officers or soldiers involved, D-Bees can have all their possessions seized, and the D-Bee may be beaten and shot on the spot as an enemy of the States! Or he may be released with a fine or a warning.
Outlawing Wilk's weaponry in the CS has as much to do with the Coalition's alliance with Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium as anything else. The alliance was made in the Summer of 105 P.A. as a measure to curtail, if not completely stamp out, the operations of D-Bee friendly arms manufacturers like Wilk's and Naruni Enterprises. The CS doesn't appreciate that Wilk's sells weapons to D-Bees and other enemies of the States and so their products have been made illegal."

(Italics for the 'outlawed' from the book. not my addition.)

So that happened in 105 P.A.? Then a Wilk's building in the 'Burbs makes sense, especially since they make and sell more than just weapons. And since it's the 'Burbs, who wants to bet they're still managing to sell their arms, just more discreetly?

Ah, the only revised book I've got is RUE.

--flatline

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Source Book 1 Revised has this new CS policy. It is under the Wilk's equipment section pg 67

"All Wilk's weapons are outlawed in the Coalition States. If CS authorities find a Wilk's weapon on a human, the weapon will be confiscated by authorities, and the owner may be fined 1,000-10,000 credits depending on the circumstances upon which it was discovered and the type of weapon (concealed and heavy weapons get the greater fines). The person might also be "detained" and questioned. Depending on the specific Coalition law enforcement officers or soldiers involved, D-Bees can have all their possessions seized, and the D-Bee may be beaten and shot on the spot as an enemy of the States! Or he may be released with a fine or a warning.
Outlawing Wilk's weaponry in the CS has as much to do with the Coalition's alliance with Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium as anything else. The alliance was made in the Summer of 105 P.A. as a measure to curtail, if not completely stamp out, the operations of D-Bee friendly arms manufacturers like Wilk's and Naruni Enterprises. The CS doesn't appreciate that Wilk's sells weapons to D-Bees and other enemies of the States and so their products have been made illegal."

(Italics for the 'outlawed' from the book. not my addition.)

So all the other Wilk's products are still legal as of current printings. (tools, medical devices, optics, sub-components, computers, communications, etc..) They just cant manufacture/distribute their weapons (which supposedly are a small portion of their business anyway) in CS territory....
So this is just the Wilks-Weapons building

Kagashi wrote:Personally, I think illustrations are canon.

I like this point of view. The illustrations in a book are just as likely to influence what I bring into my setting as the text. Whether it counts as official canon or not is of little concern to me.

--flatline

Doesn't northern gun and maniisque sell to deebees too?

Warmaster40k wrote:Doesn't northern gun and maniisque sell to deebees too?

Less so now and on the sly. They "Do" but since they've partnered up with the CS they don't do it quite as openly.

If a DBee comes into one of the stores in NG, the owner might wait till humans leave the store, then sell to the DB and ask he leave out the side door or 'back'

That or NG sells to Dbees and stuff but through intermediaries. Instead of selling to them via the NG store. The Dbees buy their stuff from... *waves hand* Guns R Us! a store that 'stocks and sells NG weapons/gear" but isn't 'NG itself' (Even though it really IS)

That's covered in NG 1

And the CS is fooled by this shallow misdirection?

--flatline

flatline wrote:And the CS is fooled by this shallow misdirection?

--flatline

To the same extent the US is fooled that china dosn't have human rights violations. AKA: They probablly know it's going on, but don't care enough to take official action, yet

More or less exactly that.

The CS gets to puff up it's chest and declair NG as an Ally.

NG Gets to sell loads to the CS (Remember they sell alot more than jsut bots and guns. All sorts of mundane consumer products)

NG gives a head fake to towing the line with the CS. This makes the CS Happy.

The CS Doesn't look TOO close, so NG doesn't lose too many sales (To DBees or other parties) So NG's happy.

If the CS tried to FORCE the issue it'd cause nastyness and NG would likely STILL Sell to those parties. At least this way they can all 'save face' and be happy even if it needs a little 'looking the other way'.

Where does Triax fit into all this?

--flatline

Across the sea, mostly out of sight, mostly out of mind when it comes to Weapons. Traix does sell but the NA market isn't really their biggest. It's so 'hard' for stuff to get here from there that it's some what of a non entity. They're allies though, so I'd guess much like NG.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

flatline wrote:And the CS is fooled by this shallow misdirection?

--flatline

To the same extent the US is fooled that china dosn't have human rights violations. AKA: They probablly know it's going on, but don't care enough to take official action, yet

Perfect comparison.

flatline wrote:Where does Triax fit into all this?

--flatline

Given that they are on the other side of an ocean with only one sub-orbital airship able to reliably make calls, I always figured (my own interpretation) that Triax basically just touches down in big mercenary cities and unloads their cargo to individual resellers--basically I don't think Triax maintains "Triax stores", except maybe one or two flagships in the biggest merc centers. more likely they are the equivlent of Wholesalers in NA, they only directly sell to human gun sellers, but the resellers can have all kinds of sale policies.

The above is neither supported nor contradictied by canon to my knowlege, the triax books are more concerned with their european issues than NA trade, the above is just what makes sense to me.

I thought Triax had multiple transatlantic supersonic transports.

I want to know when MercTown is going to get crushed by the CS for all it's 'illegal' operations, and harboring.

Read the Merc Town book. It's 100% --Directly-- addressed.

And Merc town isn't 'In' The CS.

Alrik Vas wrote:I thought Triax had multiple transatlantic supersonic transports.

It has one model, of course it has more than one actual vehicle

The way it's written, transatlantic crossings are incredibly dangerous. So much so that the CS had to have guides to the proper 'routes' and even then arrived way way way off course when they shipped an army over to help the NGR put boot to Demonic tail.

The monsters in the air/water make a crossing very difficult and dangerous at the very very best, and just plain old deadly for the norm.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The way it's written, transatlantic crossings are incredibly dangerous. So much so that the CS had to have guides to the proper 'routes' and even then arrived way way way off course when they shipped an army over to help the NGR put boot to Demonic tail.

The monsters in the air/water make a crossing very difficult and dangerous at the very very best, and just plain old deadly for the norm.

The Traix transport is sub-orbital so it gets around most the water and air monsters as well as magical storms and supersonic. The CS transported their troops in their death heads transports they are not as fast and do not have the sub-orbital ability to dodge monsters. Giving the size and slow speed for fling craft death heads transports are one of the easer air transports to stop.

DHT's can crank along at Mach 1. Which for rifts earth is pretty darn fast. That they can do so for 20 hours gets them to where they're going pretty fast and pretty well.
NY to Paris is about 3,625 miles

Speed of sound is about 750mph (Give or take, temp, altitude etc, but it's a nice number to use)

So a DHT can cross in a bit under 5 hours. That's not 'slow speed for flying craft' nor are they easy to stop. (Most things on rifts earth can't hope to keep up.)

most monsters only get up to about 200mph max. the majority are a lot slower.

so a DHT can cruise at half it's max speed (where it basically has no endurance limit) and still be safe from flying critters. not that there are many critters that would endanger a DHT.

it's not monsters that make a transatlantic flight tough.. it's the fact there is no GPS, no LORAN, not even a simple Direction finding beacon to use a guide. your literally back to the days of the first airflights, when you guessed your location over the ocean by the position of the sun and how long you'd been flying.

they needed the guides to show them the way because the CS pilots had never done that kind of flying.. they'd always been operating over the north american mainland or within sight of the shore/land, going by all the descriptions of CS operations we have. flying over a featureless ocean with no landmarks to gauge your location? out of their experience. plus once they got to France.. they'd need those guides to get them to the right area, because again, the CS pilots wouldn't know the landmarks and conditions used to find your way around Europe from the air.

Just being a bit silly, but maybe Wilk's is a nightclub. Look at the size of the windows in the illustration. Run by Billy Bob Wilk.

Going to have to say it since people are avoiding the elephant in the room. We all know the earth is flat, it only appears curved due to magnetic fields affecting optics.

I view most art as basically canon, but with some wiggle room. Like, those soldiers would probably be wearing helmets, some artists are more stylized than others ('lumpy humans' and such), but if there's a species in it, that species likely exists. If someone's shown flying, then they can fly. Etc..

HarleeKnight wrote:In the RUE, on the inside of the front cover is a building labeled Wilk's in what I can assume is the Chi-Town 'Burbs; I have a couple of problems with that.

First, Wilk's is outlawed by the CS, to the point that Wilk's makes most of the electronics in everything but they have to keep it secret.

Some possible explanations that came to mind:
1) this is an old picture of the Burbs, prior to the CS outlawing Wilk's (when did that happen again?)
2) this is City Rat graffiti, kinda like "melt my mind", and the building owner hasn't gotten around to cleaning it
3) this is a CS-approved honeypot, people who come to the building looking for Wilk's items are prompty arrested and investigated for contraband

HarleeKnight wrote:The other is, the CS periodically razes the 'Burbs, so are skyscrapers really plausible?

Is it a COMPLETE razing? Do they necessarily take out all the buildings?

HarleeKnight wrote:ley lines are straight, yet in the first two pictures in the first colored pictures section, they curve. One is the world with ley lines spanning around the world. They are not that long on any of the localized maps in the books. Then the next picture has a ley line curving through a mountain pass. So what gives?

Pics on pages 33-35?

RUEp191 describes ley lines. The first mention I can find is under the 'Random Ley Line Table' where it says:

"Ley lines represent a natural resource rooted to a narrow strip of land and run in a straight line"

however it also says:

"Radiate up from it and flow over it"

Land is not perfectly level, the earth has a curve to it, so if ley lines were truly locked into a straight path, they would actually have to stop hugging the land (going straight into the air, and into the earth).

What I take this to mean is that rather than the line being perfectly straight, it "runs in a straight line" as in, there is a larger area of straightness that the line is contained within. For example, how people sometimes explain weather/climate: https://patricktbrown.files.wordpress.c ... 7/fig2.png

You can always draw a wider thicker line which can contain a zig-zag within it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I actually asked Kevin about this one, and no, they're not big enough to circle the globe like that. He just thought it was cool artwork, not that it was accurate artwork.

I figure that these massive planet-spanning ley lines existed during the coming of the Rifts when all the energy bursting was at its max, but then as the energies died down that they fractured into smaller lines, or sunk into the planet, or launched into outer space, or some other weirdness.

I figure if lines can just be created or extended (Nazca) then they could also be lost or shortened or split, even if we don't know how yet.