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I saw there was a pretty big posting from 5 years ago, and as I am getting back in Rifts, this is a topic I am going to be visiting in my new campaign.

So when I was younger and played Rifts, the Coalition States were pretty much always a bad guy in our storyline. Our band of mix magic/technology and human/D-bees were warriors of the light, and we fought evil and oppression where ever we found it. The CS was the embodiment of this evil. Not only did we never work for them, we actively worked to overthrow them and institute a newer, friendlier government. However this was from the perspectives of 14-18 year olds.

As I am much older now and a former Army solider, I have to say I look at the CS much differently. I don’t see them as the bad guys, for the world is not black and white. There are sure some very evil people running the CS, and their policies on magic and D-bees is very harsh if not overly aggressive. But as a whole the world seems a much better place because of the CS from a human perspective. The CS is the only reason why humans actively have a fighting chance on North America. No other city/nation has the sheer resources to actively protect large groups of humans from multiple threats.

The books note that at the lowest, only 10% of the human population survived the coming of the Rifts…not just on North America but all over the world. Think about that from our world. What would you do if all you knew was destroyed and human life was on the verge of total extinction. Then combine that with a group of people who don’t care about your race, religion, etc. and just want to make sure you as a human have a fighting chance. How really bad is that? In 109 PA the human populations are not sitting comfortably and all the old threats exist with many many many new ones.

I would love to see the storyline progress with the CS becoming a little more tolerant, accepting magic and some inhuman allies. However if I was living as a human in the world of Rifts, I would be very glad the CS existed. They are bullies at time, but in dark times for humans that is what you need. I know from other posts they play the CS as utterly devoid of any remorse as they kill any and all who oppose them, and that is a shame. If humans are ever going to solidify their place back on Earth, they need the CS to do it.

Uh no, the CS is very much the bad guys, while there are some exceptions a an individual level the CS as a rule is as evil as it gets. They aren't the only reason why humans have a chance in North America, indeed they actively engaged in genocide against another nation/state (Tolkeen) where humans were thriving because the CS will brook no rivals to their goals of conquest. They actively end up creating threats to all humans with their genocidal policies and actions and have massive slums that they keep humans in living in poverty where they on a whim will go through and exterminate everyone.

The CS is the worst example of humanity, they aren't 'bullies at times', they're actively guilty of mass murder, and they are in fact devoid of any remorse as they slaughter those that oppose them. That's not people 'playing them as the bad guys' that's how they're written and humanity has NO need whatsoever for the CS. The NGR alone would be far far better if any one human nation ever came to dominate the Earth than the CS ever would be, because the NGR unlike the CS wouldn't build a death world murdering billions to conquer it.

Nightmask wrote:Uh no, the CS is very much the bad guys, while there are some exceptions a an individual level the CS as a rule is as evil as it gets. They aren't the only reason why humans have a chance in North America, indeed they actively engaged in genocide against another nation/state (Tolkeen) where humans were thriving because the CS will brook no rivals to their goals of conquest. They actively end up creating threats to all humans with their genocidal policies and actions and have massive slums that they keep humans in living in poverty where they on a whim will go through and exterminate everyone.

The CS is the worst example of humanity, they aren't 'bullies at times', they're actively guilty of mass murder, and they are in fact devoid of any remorse as they slaughter those that oppose them. That's not people 'playing them as the bad guys' that's how they're written and humanity has NO need whatsoever for the CS. The NGR alone would be far far better if any one human nation ever came to dominate the Earth than the CS ever would be, because the NGR unlike the CS wouldn't build a death world murdering billions to conquer it.

If you have read the past history of the CS and the Federation of Magic, you will see a very clear reason why the CS enforces a policy of genocide again magic users. The CS weren't the ones to throw the first punch. It is heavy handed and there are numerous indications that people with power within the CS are taking a second look at this. The Vanguard is an excellent example of people with the CS mindset expanding their horizons.

Korcheski wrote:I saw there was a pretty big posting from 5 years ago, and as I am getting back in Rifts, this is a topic I am going to be visiting in my new campaign.

So when I was younger and played Rifts, the Coalition States were pretty much always a bad guy in our storyline. Our band of mix magic/technology and human/D-bees were warriors of the light, and we fought evil and oppression where ever we found it. The CS was the embodiment of this evil. Not only did we never work for them, we actively worked to overthrow them and institute a newer, friendlier government. However this was from the perspectives of 14-18 year olds.

As I am much older now and a former Army solider, I have to say I look at the CS much differently. I don’t see them as the bad guys, for the world is not black and white. There are sure some very evil people running the CS, and their policies on magic and D-bees is very harsh if not overly aggressive. But as a whole the world seems a much better place because of the CS from a human perspective. The CS is the only reason why humans actively have a fighting chance on North America. No other city/nation has the sheer resources to actively protect large groups of humans from multiple threats.

I mostly agree, except there's an important part missing from the bolded portion.
The CS has made the world better for "normal" humans primarily. Not so much for mages, mutants, psychics and such. That's where the main problem lies, in their rather restricted view of what constitutes "humans." Kind of like the Nazis wanted to improve things for "The German People"... but they didn't see all German citizens as people.
The CS has not only abandoned a significant portion of humanity--they've also turned on them and are seeking to destroy or enslave them.
That makes them Bad Guys... depending on who you are within the context of the game setting. If you're a mage/psychic/whatever, and/or you're sympathetic to non-standard humans, then the CS can be your worst enemy. If you're a normal human adrift in the hostile world of Rifts Earth, they can be your only real salvation.

I would love to see the storyline progress with the CS becoming a little more tolerant, accepting magic and some inhuman allies. However if I was living as a human in the world of Rifts, I would be very glad the CS existed.

Agreed.

Nightmask wrote:Uh no, the CS is very much the bad guys, while there are some exceptions a an individual level the CS as a rule is as evil as it gets. They aren't the only reason why humans have a chance in North America, indeed they actively engaged in genocide against another nation/state (Tolkeen) where humans were thriving because the CS will brook no rivals to their goals of conquest. They actively end up creating threats to all humans with their genocidal policies and actions and have massive slums that they keep humans in living in poverty where they on a whim will go through and exterminate everyone.

Count the CS human population.
Count the human population of every magic-friendly city combined.
The CS has done a lot more to help a heck of a lot more humans than any other community on the planet.

I'm sorry, but Genocide is never, under any circumstances justifiable. The fact that some people in the CS are taking a second look at all makes my point and undermines yours. If the CS was as justified in their actions as you suggest, then no one would be second guessing those actions. They would simply state that such actions are necessary for the good of Humanity, and then question the loyalty of those who would question the actions committed by Humanity's stalwart defenders, the CS.

His Dudeness wrote:I'm sorry, but Genocide is never, under any circumstances justifiable. The fact that some people in the CS are taking a second look at all makes my point and undermines yours. If the CS was as justified in their actions as you suggest, then no one would be second guessing those actions. They would simply state that such actions are necessary for the good of Humanity, and then question the loyalty of those who would question the actions committed by Humanity's stalwart defenders, the CS.

The fact you damn an entire society because of the person in power is also never justifiable. Was every person in WWII Germany or Cold War Russia evil?

Considering that a majority of the people in Nazi Germany seemed to have no problem going along with the Nazi program, and only turned their backs on it when they were confronted with it by the Allies. And Cold War Russia was eventually broken up, with many countries breaking away from Russia. Considering how many of those leaders in the Soviet Bloc were guilty of the same types of crimes as the Nazis only makes my argument.

The majority of the populace of the CS seems to have no problem with the idea of Genocide being committed by their government, this is what makes them evil.

Conservative dinosaurs fighting against those who have adapted to the changed circumstances.
The CS has been depicted as the Evil Empire from 1st Edition, and the current Emperor Prosek ham-handedly continues that theme with his liking of Adolf Hitler...The fact that the 'ethnic Germans' in this case(Humanity) really ARE threatened by monstrous conspiracies, only helps cloak the depredations of the ugly reptilian underbelly of the CS's high command and the thugs they encourage in righteousness, and makes the case against the CS that much harder to promote from street-level. The CS makes the trains run on time and promotes human business, but that doesn't change the fact that their rule appeals to fear AND prejudice...only the new Jews and gypsies and Slavs are d-bees and free-thinkers.
And plasma projectors are SO much easier to tote around and use than crematoria.
Does that mean the CS is wrong in all its actions? No, and the case can be made that they've helped stem a number of big-ticket threats by their sheer numbers and willingness to do the job, regardless of cost? Yes. Are there good people among them? Yes, just as there were honorable and gallant German soldiers who fought for their homeland but could still extend compassion on the battlefield. Is the CS a necessary evil? A PREFERABLE evil? Perhaps, compared to some of the other forces out there, but the CS will one day be unnecessary, and some of the actions they've engaged in during that period will prove to be Unnecessary, blatantly cruel, and just plain evil, and that will prove their undoing.

His Dudeness wrote:I'm sorry, but Genocide is never, under any circumstances justifiable.

I disagree.
I think that any of the inhabitants of Rifts Earth would be fully justified in wiping out the Xiticix, the Vampires, the Mechanoids, or any other hostile colony established on Earth.

When your party of adventurers is hired to take out a nest of demons that have been eating local kids, do you really stop to take a survey about whether the demons are the last of their family/tribe/whatever?
If so, you're in the minority when it comes to role-players.

The fact that some people in the CS are taking a second look at all makes my point and undermines yours. If the CS was as justified in their actions as you suggest, then no one would be second guessing those actions. They would simply state that such actions are necessary for the good of Humanity, and then question the loyalty of those who would question the actions committed by Humanity's stalwart defenders, the CS.

Alas, this is the internet, and there's always somebody out there who will second-guess [i]anything/i].

taalismn wrote:Conservative dinosaurs fighting against those who have adapted to the changed circumstances.

NOT a bad description!

His Dudeness wrote:Considering that a majority of the people in Nazi Germany seemed to have no problem going along with the Nazi program, and only turned their backs on it when they were confronted with it by the Allies. And Cold War Russia was eventually broken up, with many countries breaking away from Russia. Considering how many of those leaders in the Soviet Bloc were guilty of the same types of crimes as the Nazis only makes my argument.

The majority of the populace of the CS seems to have no problem with the idea of Genocide being committed by their government, this is what makes them evil.

Did you poll the majority of the CS population on this subject...?

His Dudeness wrote:Considering that a majority of the people in Nazi Germany seemed to have no problem going along with the Nazi program, and only turned their backs on it when they were confronted with it by the Allies. And Cold War Russia was eventually broken up, with many countries breaking away from Russia. Considering how many of those leaders in the Soviet Bloc were guilty of the same types of crimes as the Nazis only makes my argument.

The majority of the populace of the CS seems to have no problem with the idea of Genocide being committed by their government, this is what makes them evil.

Damned straight. I'm the child of a Latvian refugee, and my mother got to see post-War Germany, good and bad(and the incoming Soviets).

But there was also the White Rose dissidents, and a number of German officers(many of the old Prussian upper class) who differed on policy...sadly, most of them were purged(especially after the failed bomb plot).
We don't see much evidence of similar movements in the CS general populace, mainly because they are constantly bludgeoned with the threat of the monsters just outside the city walls. THAT's a real incentive to toe the CS line and don't create disturbances.

So we know for a fact demons and creatures very much like them will are invading Rifts Earth in the latest Minion Wars book. From the description we also know that the CS will be banding together with other human cities to help fight back against said demons. So is this a battle of evil vs evil, where the most evil gets to win? I don't think so.

This is another example of the CS fighting for humanity against a very powerful force that wants to destroy them. If the CS does manage to kill each and every demon and invader, is that an act of genocide? There will be no mercy, no quarter given. The implication from some posts is this is genocide. Really it is a matter of perspective.

Will this invasion change or strengthen the views of the humans in the CS...most likely it will make them more "fanatical" depending on how/if victory is achieved. If humans become more fearful of what can be thrown at them, does that make them more evil because of this very real fear?

My point is this - the CS is a dangerous weapon that the wielder gets to determine how it is used. That doesn't make the CS evil itself, it makes the wielder evil.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

His Dudeness wrote:I'm sorry, but Genocide is never, under any circumstances justifiable.

I disagree.
I think that any of the inhabitants of Rifts Earth would be fully justified in wiping out the Xiticix, the Vampires, the Mechanoids, or any other hostile colony established on Earth.)

I think nothing of hitting xenomorph-infested planets with Neutron-S missiles, no matter how rich their hive society might be on a biochemical level.

my perspective is YES the coalition IS evil as a whole and in some ways the "good and honorable" men and women who serve it are guilty because in some ways they "legitimize" some of its actions.

with that said the coalition COULD be a major source for good, but under their current leadership and policies they will never be that.

really all it would take is for a few small but significant changes to completely flip them around, but as written, they embody the worst of most/all of the fanatical/dictatorship/fascist governments from history. Because of things like their "shoot first" policies, their "the only good debee is a dead debee" policy "the only good mage is a dead mage" dogboys (and all other mutants human or otherwise) are not "people" even if its a pretty artificial distinction etc.

if they practiced "mercy, until or unless proved otherwise" as a general policy, with noted exceptions then they could be "good guys" but that's not how they are written up.

Heck even if they had tier and "class" systems that while still problematic (from our modern sensibilities) wouldn't be horrible if they didn't resort to purges/enforcement at the barrel of a plasma ejector.

what I am getting at is I could understand why the coalition would do things like: "true humans" get x, humanoid debees have access to y, another group gets z, and xitic and deamons get the barrel of a plasma weapon because (reason) and "unknowns" are treated with suspicion and watched closely while they demonstrate their "true colors"

taalismn wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

His Dudeness wrote:I'm sorry, but Genocide is never, under any circumstances justifiable.

I disagree.
I think that any of the inhabitants of Rifts Earth would be fully justified in wiping out the Xiticix, the Vampires, the Mechanoids, or any other hostile colony established on Earth.)

I think nothing of hitting xenomorph-infested planets with Neutron-S missiles, no matter how rich their hive society might be on a biochemical level.

Agreed!


It's the only way to be sure.

The argument that the CS is the Good Guys requires that
1) There are no other people who take that role (So no Lazlo, no NGR, no Japan, no Arnzo, no Colorado Baranies, no.......)
2) Their policies are not harmful (So the active genocide against all mages, the active genocide against non-humans ect)

I would say that they fail on both counts
They have made things better....for the non-magical, non-mutant, non-psychic humans in the territories they control.
They have made things worse for all the magical, mutant, psychic, or literate humans in their territories
Thus they fail right there at improving humanities lot. (What percentage of the human race falls in those categories I wonder?)

The CS is just a bunch of guys.

Unfortunately for them, they're a bunch of guys who categorically treat certain kinds of people badly, and my characters usually happen to fall into those categories. Most of my characters take the position that anyone who is trying to kill them is a bad guy, so from their perspectives, the CS as a whole is usually a bad guy.

--flatline

flatline wrote:The CS is just a bunch of guys.

Unfortunately for them, they're a bunch of guys who categorically treat certain kinds of people badly, and my characters usually happen to fall into those categories. Most of my characters take the position that anyone who is trying to kill them is a bad guy, so from their perspectives, the CS as a whole is usually a bad guy.

--flatline

Good way of putting it.

Thought this was explained in the first sourcebook.

Worse, they create a self-perpetuating cycle of distrust and hatred...Their public cause is safety and security for humanity, which is just swell, but their methods continue to insure that there's lots of people who really DO want to bring them down hard, and/or kill every Deadboy they encounter.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Thought this was explained in the first sourcebook.

There are always exceptions, people who didn't get the memo(or assume the portrayal of the CS is the result of self-serving and one-sided commentary from the likes of Erin Tarn, people who like playing bad guys, or people who like to provoke firefights by poking at the self-righteous folks who claim 'our side is good, THAT side is evil.", no matter how much evidence there is to prove such an assertion RIGHT.

The coalition government is a wicked thing painted over with a righteous veneer.

The population of the coalition are just people, who will do what they feel is necessary. Their perspective is generally skewed by the government, but they don't act incorrectly, not really. When the world calms down a bit, humans might be able to trust their neighbors again. Right now, their is much more than mere human evil in the world. The CS will have a lot to answer for if it still exists when the dust settles, but they as a nation aren't the evil that others believe they are.

Alrik Vas wrote: The CS will have a lot to answer for if it still exists when the dust settles, but they as a nation aren't the evil that others believe they are.

"We're an entirely different evil! GET IT RIGHT!"

eliakon wrote:The argument that the CS is the Good Guys requires that
1) There are no other people who take that role (So no Lazlo, no NGR, no Japan, no Arnzo, no Colorado Baranies, no.......)

Like he said ... What if Lazo had found the lone star complex, the liberary at chi town, ect.
If someone else, with less extreme policies have placed the CS's recources to better uses.

Now in real life, we when we play those "what if's" there is no way for us to really know.

However this is fiction. The writer could easily come up with an alternate universe where Lazlo got the recourses of the CS. They created a nation that didn't persecute DBees or Mages, but was just effective (if not more so) of containing or eliminating the evil monsters.

The next writer could come up with an alternate universe where Tolkeen had the recourses and created a nation that embraced DBees and Mages, and consequently awokes evil powers from beyond, and North American is a hellish domain that makes the CS look like heroes.

Its the problem. In real life sometimes the ends can justify the means. However in Fiction both the Ends and the Means are completely under the control of the writer. The CS can be played either way, a force for evil (if the GM decides a more lenient CS would have preserved life and freedom of sentients better) or a force of lesser evil (if the GM decides a more lenient CS would have fallen and demonic creatures would have filled the power vacuum)

I think the CS as evil is overstated in some ways and correct in others.

They may be brutal on the battlefield, but it wasn't until the war on Tolkeen that SOME of the generals began a campaign of Genocide.

They kill a lot of innocents, I'm sure, on forays into the wilderness, but they don't systematically do so. They don't even systematically do it in the Burbs, well within their borders, just outside their megacities. Indeed, to DBs, the Burbs are preferable to life outside the CS.

That's really the ultimate difference between human "evil" and "ultimate evil" in the Megaverse. The CS is horrible for keeping its people in ignorance, and its propaganda machine, and its lack of empathy and violent nature. Really bad. But, unlike people in our world and in our history, they aren't imagining the evil they are fighting.

Not all DBs are baddies, by a long shot. But necromancers and demon-loving shifters sure are. Tolkeen was overkill, but The Federation is as much a nightmare (I mean, Murder Wraiths?) as the CS make them out to be. Not even close to a lie or exaggeration. And most of the world is too.

I'm pretty sure most of the denizens in the Burbs, DBs included, have seen family raped and eaten alive by (intelligent) horrors...maybe even by other members of their own family, turned undead or possessed or something evil.

It doesn't take much to bring such people around to the CS' way of thinking. It might take more effort to get such people to band together for "good," to try to get them to trust the world around them long enough to let it in the door and see if it should be killed or not. If you're fighting for survival, maybe the best way is to make everyone galvanize together through hatred and fear. It's not really surprising that such hardship has brought out some of the worst in humanity, when in our history the perception of far less threat has done as much or more.

The accomplishments of other lands, like Lazlo, are all the more heroic because of the risks they take. But I doubt a True Atlantean or a Cosmo Knight would risk death fighting the CS, other than perhaps to help some refugees escape. The real threat is the Vampires, the Alien Intelligence, the Demons, the Gods of Evil and Chaos. Such beings don't make human errors in judgement (tragic and horrible though their results may be). They do nothing but destroy life in the most heinous ways they can imagine, across as much space and time as they can manage (which is considerable).

The CS fights such things too.

It would be better for all if they could avoid fear and cold blooded killing. But they haven't even reached Nazi level atrocity yet. They're just run of the mill totalitarians, killing what they fear and filling their people's heads with enough fear to keep the fight up until it ends.

Korcheski wrote:If you have read the past history of the CS and the Federation of Magic, you will see a very clear reason why the CS enforces a policy of genocide again magic users. The CS weren't the ones to throw the first punch. It is heavy handed and there are numerous indications that people with power within the CS are taking a second look at this. The Vanguard is an excellent example of people with the CS mindset expanding their horizons.

Having a reason and being reasonable are two very different things. The Coalition, ironically, did worse than the original Federation, against a foe they were near enough long enough to know weren't going to start something.

Tolkeen, Lazlo, a number of smaller places, even a few of the cities in the new FoM would prefer to live and let live.


Heck, take Free Quebec. Sure, they're human supremacist as well, and can be pretty evil at times, but they also are much less likely to go out and start wars with non-hostile powers. They'll stare at Lazlo waiting a century for Lazlo to throw the first punch and preparing for it, but it won't come.


Then of course, there's Triax. Triax is attacked more, in a tougher position, and more reasonable. Triax are the hope of humanity on Rifts Earth, the CS just happens to be the biggest one not already locked in conflict with a counterforce.

Grant you that, Jorick. They aren't into wholesale slaughter, enslave, and mutilate for fun and profit like the Splugorth, and they don't EAT d-bees, though there are exceptions: the 'burbs certainly get by on cheap d-bee sweatshop labor, and there's almost certainly medical experimentation on d0bees(and ask the Psi-X aliens about what Desmond Bradford's hobbies).

The CS actually does engage in institutionalized slavery. The dog boys are engineered to live and die in the service of the state and they are hunted if they attempt to escape. The life of a dog boy may not be too painful, but they are not free. The CS also engages in tacitly approved private slavery. The 'Burbs adventures mention several times that D-Bee slaves are used for labor there.

The government of the Coalition is not good and neither are the citizens that choose to willfully ignore the destructive and evil acts that it perpetrates. At best, it could be claimed that they are ignorant or in fear for their own lives.

If they have accepted the propaganda as being true the average trooper or civilian can be principled in alignment.

His Dudeness wrote:Considering that a majority of the people in Nazi Germany seemed to have no problem going along with the Nazi program, and only turned their backs on it when they were confronted with it by the Allies. And Cold War Russia was eventually broken up, with many countries breaking away from Russia. Considering how many of those leaders in the Soviet Bloc were guilty of the same types of crimes as the Nazis only makes my argument.

The majority of the populace of the CS seems to have no problem with the idea of Genocide being committed by their government, this is what makes them evil.

And many of those countries picked right up with the "ethnic cleansing" that they were doing before the "Iron Fist" of the Soviet Union stopped them. So, in this regard, the Soviet Union could be viewed as "good guys". Overall, I have to say that any government that stifles education (especially for their own gain) should be considered "evil". However, I would be right there with the CS in trying to take back our planet. Look at it from the perspective of the NEMA Troops of Chaos Earth: We're dying in droves by all these "Demons" coming out of those darn blue holes. Even if they are not an immediate threat, what about when they out breed us and either take all of our resources or decide that they want to rule and wipe us out. Find a way to leave my planet or die. That would be my personal stance as a human in a Rifts or Chaos Earth type setting. Playing a GAME is a different matter, as I can be anything and thus will have different perspectives on everything.

the CS are not *the* bad guy, and they are not completely without redeeming qualities, but they definitely are *a* bad guy.

there are elements of good, but i cannot condone torture, murder, slavery, and hatred on the scale that the CS perpetrates just because they also happen to do some good things along the road. plus, they've got skulls on their uniforms. that's a dead giveaway.

Well, sometimes the best ally is the villain who works for a brighter future.

Alrik Vas wrote:Well, sometimes the best ally is the villain who works for a brighter future.

Lesser of two evils? Or just the devil you know?
It's like the good citizens teaming up with the local thugs to deal with the big bad biker gang that comes roaring into town. There's a common enemy that they both have to work against, but without the outside threat, the good folk minding their own business are going to be victimized arguably just as bad by the thugs...and getting knifed by the local gang is going to get you just as dead as being axed by the raiders. It's just that occasionally, the good folks can buy off the local thugs, and sometimes the thugs pay a nickel or dime for a shoeshine or some work.

eliakon wrote:The argument that the CS is the Good Guys requires that
1) There are no other people who take that role (So no Lazlo, no NGR, no Japan, no Arnzo, no Colorado Baranies, no.......)
2) Their policies are not harmful (So the active genocide against all mages, the active genocide against non-humans ect)

They don't actually have active genocide against all mages, last I checked.
Unless their laws and policies were bumped up since CWC.

I would say that they fail on both counts
They have made things better....for the non-magical, non-mutant, non-psychic humans in the territories they control.
They have made things worse for all the magical, mutant, psychic, or literate humans in their territories
Thus they fail right there at improving humanities lot. (What percentage of the human race falls in those categories I wonder?)

Actually, the have made things peripherally better for almost everybody.
They make enough food to feed their people, their presence creates a kind of stability (oppressive or not), they created/control THE main currency of North America (which creates a lot of economic stability), and their medicine is unsurpassed on Rifts Earth iirc.
Even the CS' enemies benefit to some degree from the existence of the CS.

Incriptus wrote:

eliakon wrote:The argument that the CS is the Good Guys requires that
1) There are no other people who take that role (So no Lazlo, no NGR, no Japan, no Arnzo, no Colorado Baranies, no.......)

Like he said ... What if Lazo had found the lone star complex, the liberary at chi town, ect.
If someone else, with less extreme policies have placed the CS's recources to better uses.

Now in real life, we when we play those "what if's" there is no way for us to really know.

However this is fiction. The writer could easily come up with an alternate universe where Lazlo got the recourses of the CS. They created a nation that didn't persecute DBees or Mages, but was just effective (if not more so) of containing or eliminating the evil monsters.

The writer could easily come up with a scenario where the Rifts never came, and everybody sang songs around a campfire.
That's not necessarily "what would happen," though.

Personally, I think that if Lazlo gets big enough, then it will faction off. They're too diverse, accepting people with any philosophy.
You can't have a working society where necromancers, cyber-knights, and Dragonwright cultists all work together peacefully on a massive scale.

Shark_Force wrote:the CS are not *the* bad guy, and they are not completely without redeeming qualities, but they definitely are *a* bad guy.

there are elements of good, but i cannot condone torture, murder, slavery, and hatred on the scale that the CS perpetrates just because they also happen to do some good things along the road. plus, they've got skulls on their uniforms. that's a dead giveaway.

Yes.

The CS isn't a bad guy. But they aren't exactly peace loving freedom nuts either. If anything, I would liken them to Saddam Hussein's regime.

They kill anybody that disagrees with them and are all around not nice dudes, but they give stability to the region. Seriously, the power vacuum that would be created if the Coalition fell would cause more death than all the CS genocide campaigns combined.

More often than not, the CS will be the bad guy in most player interactions. But they still provide protection, food and shelter for the majority of humans in North America. If you take that away, you can very easily be condemning the human population of North America to being a tasty treat for demons or dying a slow death via starvation and dehydration.

I agree with Kevin when he is asked if they are good or bad. Yes.

While they have an incredibly totalitarian society, and it is the worst form of government on Rifts Earth... Besides just about every other one. Coalition Beef feeds over 10,000,000 humans, then they export some to allies or it just gets sold. The Life Expectancy in the Burbs for a D-Bee is higher then a human outside CS lands. They deal in the primary form of currency, have one of the few chances versus the Bugs in Canada and tend to make things think twice about starting something.

Yes they can be evil as Hell, but have yet resorted to NUKING THEIR OWN LAND unlike the noble NGR and Zurich, or any other aviary. And the Germans, woo-boy there is some Genocide right there. Killing eggs, come on folks.

And so what if the people don't revolt in the streets over the atrocities by their government, neither does most of our Earth. There is no nation on Rifts Earth with out blood on their hands, the CS just does dressed up like skeletons and with panache.

There's even worse ones out there, but that doesn't make the Coalition not very-bad.

Especially as, a lot of the time, they spend more effort fighting people better than them than they do on other things.

Sure, the NGR and others have blood on their hands, but quite often that's a much more pragmatic decision, rather than raiding D-Bees because they're not human or destroying a non-aggressive nation for using magic.

Wow, this takes me back. This is one of those quintessential discussions, been on-going since the boards first started.

For my part I think the CS are Villains, and Cartoonishly so. They are not a fully realizes society(their economy doesn't make any sense for example), but something generated for interesting stories in an RPG.

Recall that the CS regime isn't just horrible to those outside it's borders but to those within it's borders. It employs it's own inhuman domestic police force and literal thought police(or did you think those Psi-Stalkers and Registers PSI's didn't use telepathy and similar to ferret out dissidents). They violently supress humans who attempt to even learn alternative ways of being. Besides there genetically engineered Slave Force of Dog Boys they covertly abduct 'humans' and conduct genetic experiments on them. They violently 're-educate' or terminate those who dont' fall in line with their regime. They are somewhat similar to North Korea. A Stifling regime governed by a series of near insane leaders from the same family, probably doomed within a generation to self-destruct as ego's and paranoid self-interest conflict. Anyone who assumes the CS is 'efficient' in economic terms is kidding themselves. The Regime is obviously rife with corruption from the top on down.

The two most common attempts as justifying the CS in general sort of fail; The First, that they are a hope for humanity, requires you to already operate within an acceptance of the CS' terms. The countless 'non-human' creatures they slaughter indiscriminately have a right to life. The CS arguments in this regard fall apart. Cactus People or Elves are not Demons. Secondly the host of other entirely viable communities either mostly, or partially of humans make the argument that humanity is some-how intrinsically 'in danger of extinction' a bit harder to swallow. At worst, Humanity is in a reduced role on th planet earth because of it's own actions, if we want to go assigning collective responsibility left and right.

The other argument, that the CS is 'good' for the region as a stabilizing influence I also find questionable. The Largest military conflicts in the last several decades(the War with Tolkeen, the conflict with Free Quebec, etc.) are instigated by short-sighted CS policy. Countless of their own people have died because of their expansionist policies and countless more will die, or live lives worse than that of comparable states elsewhere.

Frankly I've always thought the 'CS si not really evil' argument kind of weak. Now... 'The Splugorth are morally justified' is far more interesting for my money .

There are a few things that stand out today, as they have from the start about the CS.

1) Many people, like the OP used them as bad guys when Rifts started. So they got into that mindset when they were 14 or 20, and it's stuck with them. After decades they can't see the CS as anything different because that's what they were when the game 'started' for those players and it's just accepted as a given.
2) They do have an image problem. Not that it's a problem for 'them' in the rifts universe, but for players. As someone above said 'They have skulls on their uniforms they must be bad guys'. If the CS were portrayed with gleaming armor and US flags on the chest and such, their mental image would be very much different. Instead their physical ascetic is skulls and 'Nazi like'. The black uniforms the lighting bolts. It lumps them in, visually with the Nazi's. While I'm sure this was done on purpose it's 'shallow' thinking. It's the same sort of thinking that causes a white lady to cross the street when she sees a black guy in a hoody coming her way. Guy hasn't done anything to her, but in her mind he looks like someone who's a criminal. So in her mind he becomes a criminal.
3) Not everyone READS all the material. Most don't. Not every player has access to all the books. In most game groups, there's one guy that has alot of books and everyone else have a core book, and one or two others that they like. So out of 5 guys, one might have a ton of the books with the fluff. The others only have partial access to those books. So when everyone can get their lives to sync up and go to the gaming group, the other 4 people don't have time to read all the books. So they don't have full access to the information.

Why is this important? Well if you look at #2 there, the CS have a visual that lumps them in with bad guys. So if noone knows different it's easy to just leave them there. If you have access to all the material and -read- about the rifts setting, the CS's view point isn't insane. If anything they're a bit tame in their reaction alot of the time.

Pause and think about how the US responded when 3000 people were killed in terrorist attacks. How the world shook as we retaliated against those that killed 3000 of our people. And those were (technically) Humans, that commited those crimes. The patriot act was passed with huge majority and they've shown that there was no physical way that it could have been read, before the vote. Not all of it.

Now that attack shook our country and the result shook the world.

Think about Hurricane Katrina. About the displaced people. About the deaths. About what happend to the people there. About how quickly the rule of law not just deteriorated but was shattered in hours. Think about how long the reprecussions of that one storm have lasted. Still today. I live in MI and we have displaced people from that storm here, still trying to get on their feet.

Pause and think about Rifts. About what happened with the coming of rifts.

Natural disasters on the level that the world has never seen. Even the extinction of the dinosaurs was not so violent. thousands of tornados. Thousands of earthquakes that shook cities to the ground. Tidal waves that were "A mile high" and washed all the way to the mountains on each coast. Hurricanes, fires, the works. The power grid was instantly severed. Communications were dicy at best and that's if you were military. The world wasn't brought to it's knees. The world was slammed into the ground so hard they were 6 feet under and trying to swim their way up and out of their graves.

BILLIONS died.

Then, as all that was happening, and billions (Not 3,000) Were dieing and the world went absolutely crazy... things got really bad. Tears in the very fabric of reality opened up. Monsters came out. The worst things out of any movie you've ever seen, and more came crawling through those 'rifts' and into our world. As if the destruction alone wouldn't have been bad enough. As if most people wouldn't have died from that alone. it -wasn't- alone. millions or billions of monsters, aliens, demons, devils and god knows what poured into our world. Giant bugs with magical guns that could fly and swarm by the millions. Demons that could appear and take out entire villages (as if there WERE villages at that point.) Even if some how you didn't die in a tornado. or an earth quake. or an honest to god storm of fire raining down from the sky, there was no power. little food, it's not like people were growing crops just then. So if you're human and alive you might have.. a camp, with scrounged materials... and during all of that... a little kitty walks up. you've lost your family. Everyone you've ever known. Your little group of survivors, maybe 5 to 10 people banded together just to try and survive. And here comes a little kitty. Something of comfort. Something that wasn't insane or deadly. You reach down to pet the kitty. Tears in your eyes as you think of your daughter that was lost. She'd loved cats.

ROAAAAAR!! The sweet little kitty drops it's metamorphisis and is now a 20 foot tall fraking dragon! It roars and opens it's mouth. Magical fire that could melt battle tanks sprays forth burning your camp in the blink of an eye. two clawed hands reach out and snatch up the people on either side of you. CHOMP CHOMP! Their heads are bitten off and their bodies are turned upside down. blood spraying from their necks all over you as the dragon chews. you're drenched in blood. For extra flavor. before the dragon laughs and bites off one of your arms. Then just walks away. Why'd it do that? you don't know. You have no idea. You only vaguely can categorize the creature. What ever it was it happened in 20 seconds. Now it's gone. everyone in your group is dead except you. You manage to use some of the fire from the breath to cauterize your arm. You some how survive. You're one of the 'lucky ones'.

Pretty horrific. But that's just one guy's story. One instance. This doesn't end. It's not one night of horror. The natural disasters last months to years. The invasion of beings from other dimensions never stop. The predation of humanity goes on and on. Not for a day, or a week. or a year. Or a decade.

This goes on and on and on. For literal GENERATIONS. ----Two hundred years---- of this. Monsters of every kind, shape, form, many with out form, prey on humanity. Why? Because they can. Because the shattered remnants of humanity can't really stop them. This happens, for two hundred years. If a generation of humanity is 20 to 30 years, this sort of unspeakable, unexplainable, horrific happenings go on for 10 generations. Your father knew this horror of constant fear from monsters not of this world. Your grand father. Your great great grand father. his grand father, and his grandfather's grandfather. It's only after 200 years that humanity, finds a way to band together. Scattered groups of survivors start to work together again. To defend one another.

Why are they scared of DBees? Because for 10 generations, 200 years, the monsters have preyed on humanity. Ate humans. Raped them. Enslaved them. Torutred them. Why? because they could. generation after generation after generation of humanity suffered under the fear and yoke of all these millions of kinds of monster. That's why they're scared of Dbees. That's why they don't 'Give a new Dbee a chance" if monsters of every stripe had done these things to your people for 200 years you wouldn't either. Remember this isn't 'baseless fear/hate' like racism or something. These things literally did all that stuff. The Kitty/dragon thing is just one example. It happened over and over for 200 years of darkness before humanity started crawling up out of the soup. This isn't human stupidy. This isn't over who's god is the right god. These monsters came after humanity was in the dirt and did this for 200 years.

Pause and think about how instantly we turned against the terrorists after 9/11. How the military had uncharted recruits then. So many that they were turning people away. They couldn't induct that many. How the country came together over 3000 deaths.

Humanity lost billions. 999 out of every 1000 were killed or slaughtered. The survivors left in that insane world for 10 generations before the crawl up even started.

the CS' view on Dbees isn't some sort of nazi 'lets go kill the Jews' thing. it's born from literal centuries of abuse, rape, predation of humanity by every monster, or supernatural being from the rifts. From --CENTURIES-- of stories like the Kitty thing above. To think that we wouldn't fear Dbees under those cirumstances is borderline insane. of course humanity would be afraid of them.

The players, sitting and looking at the rifts book might go "Oh look at these guys. They wear skulls, they look like Nazi's and they fear and kill Dbees, they must be evil" but after what happened, could there really be any other reasonable reaction? Sure looking down from 'above' we know that not all Dbees are bad. Of course they're not, but after literal Centiries of fighting the bad ones, of trying to live from day to day. Hand to mouth. Would you risk it? After your uncle, your aunt. 5 cousins, mother, daughter, and two brothers died at the hands of strange monsters from a rift, would you ever give them 'the benifit of the doubt'? No. You wouldn't. They'd be lumped together. You wouldn't pause and go 'hey mabye that 12 foot tall monster thing with horns and blades for arms, is a nice guy. Now I couldn't possibly speak it's language but... after I've lost my uncle and aunt, 5 cousins, mother, daughter and two brothers to monsters like him. Lets give THAT one a chance"

LOL gimme a break. If you did you'd be a moron and deserve it when blade guy shoved his mega damage sword through your face.

Does that make the CS angels? no. They're very heavy handed. Their reactions are built out of centuries of fear and fighting evil so they ARE extreme, but they're understandable. To act like they're not is to ignore the setting and what 'Happened'. Humanity in rifts earth by and large is living with centuries of PTSD. The monsters are still out there. The CS have banded together. they're starting to fight back. Are they nice about it? Not really. Are they merciless to the monsters that invaded our planet? Yes. Why? because that's all they've experienced for hundreds of years.

Are some of the CS leaders Evil? Yes. So are some of ours. The CS it self isn't evil. If you read the material, the average CS Citizen is pretty much like the average person today. Some good. some bad. Most are in between. The CS people don't sit around in their living rooms thinking up ways to torture people. They're not serial killers or what not. Most are just people trying to survive in a truely horrific world.

If that survival means, that monsters from some other dimension have to die.. well it's us or them, then it should be them. Does that mean that a good dbee might get lumped in with the uncounted supernatural monsters? Yeah. because after 300 years (Current time) Of monsters eating, raping, kidnappingand enslaving humanity, people don't give them chances. I wouldn't. Neither would you. Again this isn't 'he has brown skin so he's 'DIFFERENT' fro mme. This isn't 'your god isn't my god so you gotta die" this is literally "You're a demon from another plane or dimension, invading my world and killing my people for 300 years, but you expect me to pause and see if you just so happen tobe a NICE demon? That's an unreal expectation

And that's before we even get to magic.

The CS isn't 'evil'. It's a result of what happened to earth. Are some of it's leaders evil? yes. Some are. (Have any of you met real life politicians? Do they do bad things? Sometimes. Are they quick to lump all Dbees and mages together? yes. Why? Survival. Survival of humanity. To survive they have to. Other wise they'd open themselves to predation again and descent into that quagmire of death and destruction.

Korcheski wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Uh no, the CS is very much the bad guys, while there are some exceptions a an individual level the CS as a rule is as evil as it gets. They aren't the only reason why humans have a chance in North America, indeed they actively engaged in genocide against another nation/state (Tolkeen) where humans were thriving because the CS will brook no rivals to their goals of conquest. They actively end up creating threats to all humans with their genocidal policies and actions and have massive slums that they keep humans in living in poverty where they on a whim will go through and exterminate everyone.

The CS is the worst example of humanity, they aren't 'bullies at times', they're actively guilty of mass murder, and they are in fact devoid of any remorse as they slaughter those that oppose them. That's not people 'playing them as the bad guys' that's how they're written and humanity has NO need whatsoever for the CS. The NGR alone would be far far better if any one human nation ever came to dominate the Earth than the CS ever would be, because the NGR unlike the CS wouldn't build a death world murdering billions to conquer it.

If you have read the past history of the CS and the Federation of Magic, you will see a very clear reason why the CS enforces a policy of genocide again magic users. The CS weren't the ones to throw the first punch. It is heavy handed and there are numerous indications that people with power within the CS are taking a second look at this. The Vanguard is an excellent example of people with the CS mindset expanding their horizons.

Magic users are a diverse group unlike the CS which is a singular organization, there is no 'magic users attacked first so we need to murder them all' because they're basically an uncounted number of smaller groups and individuals. So no 'Magic-Users attacked first so killing them all is acceptable' isn't valid, and the Vanguard is an example of no such thing, they're still blindly racist and genocidal who still are seeing no farther than their noses as they gleefully support genocide and attempt it when they can.

Korcheski wrote:So we know for a fact demons and creatures very much like them will are invading Rifts Earth in the latest Minion Wars book. From the description we also know that the CS will be banding together with other human cities to help fight back against said demons. So is this a battle of evil vs evil, where the most evil gets to win? I don't think so.

This is another example of the CS fighting for humanity against a very powerful force that wants to destroy them. If the CS does manage to kill each and every demon and invader, is that an act of genocide? There will be no mercy, no quarter given. The implication from some posts is this is genocide. Really it is a matter of perspective.

Will this invasion change or strengthen the views of the humans in the CS...most likely it will make them more "fanatical" depending on how/if victory is achieved. If humans become more fearful of what can be thrown at them, does that make them more evil because of this very real fear?

My point is this - the CS is a dangerous weapon that the wielder gets to determine how it is used. That doesn't make the CS evil itself, it makes the wielder evil.

No, that's not an example of the CS fighting for humanity, that's an example of the CS fighting for itself. No it's not genocide if they're actively killing people actively trying to kill them human or otherwise but it IS genocide when they actively kill everyone who isn't a member of the CS that isn't human and many that are human even when they're not in any fashion threatening the CS or anyone living there or humans in general.

Nox Equites wrote:If they have accepted the propaganda as being true the average trooper or civilian can be principled in alignment.

Which is pretty ridiculous, how can you be so quantifiably good (i.e. Principled alignment) when you engage in or openly support something so quantfiably evil (i.e. genocide)?

Crow Splat wrote:The CS isn't a bad guy. But they aren't exactly peace loving freedom nuts either. If anything, I would liken them to Saddam Hussein's regime.

They kill anybody that disagrees with them and are all around not nice dudes, but they give stability to the region. Seriously, the power vacuum that would be created if the Coalition fell would cause more death than all the CS genocide campaigns combined.

More often than not, the CS will be the bad guy in most player interactions. But they still provide protection, food and shelter for the majority of humans in North America. If you take that away, you can very easily be condemning the human population of North America to being a tasty treat for demons or dying a slow death via starvation and dehydration.

Uh no, seriously, the CS is most definitely the bad guy, they don't just kill people for disagreeing with them (which in and of itself makes you a bad guy) but actively engage in genocide which can't make you any more obviously evil. they also don't provide protection, food, or shelter for the majority of humans in North America and they actively destroyed as part of their genocidal plan a city/state with a large population of humans knowing they were killing other humans. Eliminating the CS would simply remove an evil empire that's NOT been making things well for humanity as a whole and leave room for the actual good nations/groups to expand (although sadly too late for Tolkeen).

Nightmask wrote:

Nox Equites wrote:If they have accepted the propaganda as being true the average trooper or civilian can be principled in alignment.

Which is pretty ridiculous, how can you be so quantifiably good (i.e. Principled alignment) when you engage in or openly support something so quantfiably evil (i.e. genocide)?

Genocide is not quantifiably evil, just for starts.

Nightmask wrote: it IS genocide when they actively kill everyone who isn't a member of the CS that isn't human and many that are human even when they're not in any fashion threatening the CS or anyone living there or humans in general.

The CS doesn't do that.

Nightmask wrote:

Crow Splat wrote:The CS isn't a bad guy. But they aren't exactly peace loving freedom nuts either. If anything, I would liken them to Saddam Hussein's regime.

They kill anybody that disagrees with them and are all around not nice dudes, but they give stability to the region. Seriously, the power vacuum that would be created if the Coalition fell would cause more death than all the CS genocide campaigns combined.

More often than not, the CS will be the bad guy in most player interactions. But they still provide protection, food and shelter for the majority of humans in North America. If you take that away, you can very easily be condemning the human population of North America to being a tasty treat for demons or dying a slow death via starvation and dehydration.

Uh no, seriously, the CS is most definitely the bad guy, they don't just kill people for disagreeing with them (which in and of itself makes you a bad guy) but actively engage in genocide which can't make you any more obviously evil.

They don't actively engage in genocide.

they also don't provide protection, food, or shelter for the majority of humans in North America

Count the population of the CS.
Then count the population of the rest of the humans in North America.
The CS, I believe, is the majority by a very large number.

and they actively destroyed as part of their genocidal plan a city/state with a large population of humans knowing they were killing other humans.

Invading and destroying another city is not genocide, and was not necessarily part of any kind of genocidal plan.