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I'm struggling with an interpretation of the damage a master psionic cyber-knight'spsi-sword will due based on the RUE with rules as written.

Looking for inspiration from the Coalition Wars 4, the master psionic's psi-sword only did a one time additional 1D6 MD.

In RUE which is what we're using the psi-sword for a mater psionic does

RUE pg. 64 wrote:and does an additional +1aD6 M.D. with his Psi-Sword at levels 2, 5, 9 and 13

My question, is does this damage scale add to the regular cyber-knight's psi-sword damage scale or does it replace it?

If it is in addition to a regular cyber knights psi-sword then the damage scale is as follows.

Lvl 1: 1d6, Lvl 2: 2d6, Lvl 3: 3D6, Lvl 5: 4d6, Lvl 6: 6D6, Lvl 9: 8D6, Lvl 12: 9D6, Lvl 13: 10D6 or 1d6x10, [b]Lvl 15:[/b] 11D6
multiply all of these numbers by 2 if the cyber knight is using paired psi-swords so upwards or 22D6 or 2D6x10+2D6 = > 2/3rds the damage of a boom-gun, but at no cost in ISP, unlimited duration, and can never be separated from their weapon.

I'm inclined to believe it supplants it especially when you start to consider that they get paired psi-swords later on. If they stack and it applies to both psi-sword the master psionic cyber-knight can do ridiculous amounts of damage with two uber psi-swords.

The material in coalition wars 4 do NOT stack with the RUE. RUE was a revision and update and replaces the material in SoT 4. In short, look only at the RUE, what was in Coalition Wars 4 has been revised and obsoleted.

In short, a level 15 cyber knight does 10d6 with one psi-sword, and yes, they can have two of them. They do not get the extra 1d6 from SoT 4.

Yes, 2 psi-swords doing 10d6 damage each is very nice. This is not a mistake.

Never even noticed this. Guess we should amend Coake. *wonders if this happened because Kev ran a campaign and someone killed Coake in that continuity for being a wuss*

Let's also, folks, remember them Amaki TW amplifiers and Psyscape's Third Eye and Astral Avenger and Nexus-Proximity multipliers.

Agree with Nekira Sudacne.

For a Master Psychic Cyber-Knight, the progression is:
1 - 1D6; 2 - 2D6; 3 - 3D6; 4 - 3D6; 5 - 4D6; 6 - 5D6; 7 - 5D6; 8 - 5D6; 9 - 7D6; 10 - 7D6; 11 - 7D6; 12 - 8D6; 13 - 9D6; 14 - 9D6; 15 - 10D6

And while 10D6 is pretty powerful for a no-ISP, can't lose it, instant on weapon, the character has to make to level 15 to get that. Given the occupational hazards of Cyber-Knight, the ones who make it that high are going to be the ones able to avoid combat in the first place... which nullifies the weapon.

Avoid or just be really good at, like some PP 30 beast who just auto-parries a bunch of energy blasts (but not bursts)

Tor wrote:Never even noticed this. Guess we should amend Coake. *wonders if this happened because Kev ran a campaign and someone killed Coake in that continuity for being a wuss*

Let's also, folks, remember them Amaki TW amplifiers and Psyscape's Third Eye and Astral Avenger and Nexus-Proximity multipliers.

I'm not familiar with the astral avenger; where is this located?

Tor wrote:Never even noticed this. Guess we should amend Coake. *wonders if this happened because Kev ran a campaign and someone killed Coake in that continuity for being a wuss*

Let's also, folks, remember them Amaki TW amplifiers and Psyscape's Third Eye and Astral Avenger and Nexus-Proximity multipliers.

Remember, Coake has a magic belt of strength that lets him add his PS damage bonus to all melee MDC attacks, including his psi-sword. so anything that buffs his strength will make his psi-swords even more badass

Considering that a Mind Melter (or anyone else capable and with) the regular Psi-Sword will be doing 10d6 by level 9, at level 15 they will be doing 14d6. If they've been to Psycape and opened their Third Eye, damage from the power can be even greater (x20. So I don't see what the fus is about the Cyber-Knight in terms of damage, cost/duration/dual I can see, but not based on damage.

masslegion wrote:I'm not familiar with the astral avenger; where is this located?

Psycape pg150, it is a side effect of the Psychic granting implants in the book (may be elsewhere to)

ShadowLogan wrote:Considering that a Mind Melter (or anyone else capable and with) the regular Psi-Sword will be doing 10d6 by level 9, at level 15 they will be doing 14d6. If they've been to Psycape and opened their Third Eye, damage from the power can be even greater (x20. So I don't see what the fus is about the Cyber-Knight in terms of damage, cost/duration/dual I can see, but not based on damage.

masslegion wrote:I'm not familiar with the astral avenger; where is this located?

Psycape pg150, it is a side effect of the Psychic granting implants in the book (may be elsewhere to)

Remember that by level 15, or level 9 for that matter, they can get Two psi-swords, whereas mind melters (and all other psychcis) can only get 1. sinse they also get free paired weapons by that level, that's a total of 20d6 vs 14d6 in two seperate attacks, plus they can do the "Parry with one hand and simultaniously attack the mind melter with the other" trick.

I used the Cybernight ability, one sword AND the major Psionic Psi Sword, 2 so in effect you Dual Wield Psi Swords.
To my understanding the abilities are seperate.

Yeah Cyber-Knight psi-sword get pretty stout, but you probably would have acquired a TW sword before level 15 that would do 1d6x10. The real bonus to the psi-sword is it being free and instant. So you can always parry MD attacks and you are always able to inflict MD.

I actually had a player take the "speed of thought" thing literally and said he wanted his swords to flash on just before impact. So he would swing his empty hand at someone and have the sword come out just before the hit and disappear when it came free.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Remember, Coake has a magic belt of strength that lets him add his PS damage bonus to all melee MDC attacks, including his psi-sword. so anything that buffs his strength will make his psi-swords even more badass

Now picturing that giantification spell from FoM making a giant Cyber-Knight.

Makes you wonder... normally armor does not grow with the giant and they break it if wearing it...

Wonder if that applies to cyber-armor...

Although I'm inclined to think once it became a living part of you, it wouldn't cause problems and would grow too, even if normal non-biological cyber-armor might cut you up if you grew.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't see what the fus is about the Cyber-Knight in terms of damage, cost/duration/dual I can see, but not based on damage.

It's just that it was easier to overlook the cost/duration/dual (also activation time) before since they didn't do very good damage and you would be better off for a long time using a Laser Sword or a TW Flaming Blade.

Now, a Master Cyber-Knight is effectively going to be rivaling rune weapons quite quickly, they've become a lot more competetive.

Crow Splat wrote:you probably would have acquired a TW sword before level 15 that would do 1d6x10.

Dat GM generosity, since Deathbringer swords cost more than most power-armor and the standard salary of soldiers or mercs couldn't get enough in a loooong time.

Also used to be the damage of a powered-up Battlefury Blade for a while (originally in FoM) but SoT boosted that up to 2D4x10 because... I guess it just wasn't enough of a gamebreaker? *shrug* Makes it harder and harder to justify the Deathbringer having a higher cost, but not having to pay PPE and always having the high damage is an advantage, even if it doesn't come up so much for a lot of PCs.

But you got 15 levels to make enough scratch or find one.. just about any of the sword in FoM will do, and there are some pretty nasty TW swords in RUE too. Doesn't a lightblade do 1d4x10?

Tor wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Remember, Coake has a magic belt of strength that lets him add his PS damage bonus to all melee MDC attacks, including his psi-sword. so anything that buffs his strength will make his psi-swords even more badass

Now picturing that giantification spell from FoM making a giant Cyber-Knight.

Makes you wonder... normally armor does not grow with the giant and they break it if wearing it...

Wonder if that applies to cyber-armor...

Although I'm inclined to think once it became a living part of you, it wouldn't cause problems and would grow too, even if normal non-biological cyber-armor might cut you up if you grew.

Technically regular, non-living cyber-armor is a cybernetic implant, so what happens to them is the same as what happens to anyone with cybernetics you cast giant on--I.E. it grows with them. It's called armor in the name, but offically it's just a cybernetic implant, and not armor.

Giant in FoMp150 doesn't mention if cybernetics grow with you. Nor does RUEp219.

It does mention 'any armor worn will be shredded'. Course cyber-armor could be more attached than worn...

Makes me wonder what would happen if you cast this on a full conversion borg. Their bonus to save vs magic isn't much help against a spell with no save.

Of course, 'touch' might mean you have to touch an organic component of the borg, which could be hard in the case of a full conversion unless they keep an intact tongue or face-flesh or something.

Tor wrote:Giant in FoMp150 doesn't mention if cybernetics grow with you. Nor does RUEp219.

It does mention 'any armor worn will be shredded'. Course cyber-armor could be more attached than worn...

Makes me wonder what would happen if you cast this on a full conversion borg. Their bonus to save vs magic isn't much help against a spell with no save.

Of course, 'touch' might mean you have to touch an organic component of the borg, which could be hard in the case of a full conversion unless they keep an intact tongue or face-flesh or something.

*rechecks*

It dosn't work on inorganic constructs, so I had misread it origionally. Cybernetics and bionics wouldn't grow. of course, it dosn't say they would fall out either. prehaps if you have a bionic arm, you just get a little stub-bionic arm coming out of your now-giant sholder.

borgs would probablly be uneffected.

Living cyber armor is no longer inorganic, so it'd work fine for cyber knights level 4+

Strength of the whale would be Ideal for Coke. Doubles his PS and makes it supernatural to boot. that'd be 12d6+36 damage on each psi-sword. (Coake is not a natural psychic, so he only gets the base psi-sword.

The tiny bionic arm thing doesn't seem like much of a problem, but I wonder with how cyber-armor is, if it'd squish you.

Perhaps if it were a solid piece but I guess being overlocking plates, they'd just grow apart.

I'd probably lower the AR they covered while you were grown for that reason.

which is actually advantageous since you're MDC anyway and having it damage your temporary MDC is better than having your valuable cybernetics damaged, which you will want to be at 100% when the spell ends and you're SDC again and unarmored.

Neikira Sudacne wrote:Remember that by level 15, or level 9 for that matter, they can get Two psi-swords, whereas mind melters (and all other psychcis) can only get 1. sinse they also get free paired weapons by that level, that's a total of 20d6 vs 14d6 in two seperate attacks, plus they can do the "Parry with one hand and simultaniously attack the mind melter with the other" trick.

I haven't forgotten, but the Parry/Strike combo a Mind Melter/Psi-Sword user could duplicate if they had a second weapon or shield and selected/acquired WP Paired.

But each individual Psi-Sword the CyberKnight creates is still inferior to the normal Psi-Sword in terms of damage. Dual Wielding is certainly an option for the CK to get better results, but at the same time comes with its own set of penalties given that a strike/strike option removes the ability to auto-parry leaving the CK more vulnerable than if he/she stuck to just one sword or a strike/parry use (effectively negating the damage the 2nd Psi-Sword brings).

The only true advantage is in terms of duration the powers can be activated, casting time, and the I.S.P. cost favour the CK over others.

Then again a Burster who super charges a pair of TW Flaming Sword (RMB, IIRC there is a more powerful flaming sword somewhere to), with the necessary skills (WP Paired) could exceed the CK in terms of damage even at level 1. They obviously can't compete in ISP/Time factors, but in terms of raw damage they can certainly compete with a Level 15 Psi-Sword.

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Yes, 2 psi-swords doing 10d6 damage each is very nice. This is not a mistake.

Yes, but using both swords to attack in melee combat is tantamount to committing suicide. The knight gives up all defensive actions when they dual wield in this fashion. In the world of rifts giving up defense is crazy. Even with the ridiculous GI Joe rules you could end up dead quickly. I was never a killer GM, but if a character did something like this, I sure wasn't going to fudge any rolls in their defense.

Riftdevil wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Yes, 2 psi-swords doing 10d6 damage each is very nice. This is not a mistake.

Yes, but using both swords to attack in melee combat is tantamount to committing suicide. The knight gives up all defensive actions when they dual wield in this fashion. In the world of rifts giving up defense is crazy. Even with the ridiculous GI Joe rules you could end up dead quickly. I was never a killer GM, but if a character did something like this, I sure wasn't going to fudge any rolls in their defense.

Depends, if the opponent is using a technological weapon, they can still auto dodge thanks to Zen combat.

Or just be against someone with really bad aim or low damage.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Riftdevil wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Yes, 2 psi-swords doing 10d6 damage each is very nice. This is not a mistake.

Yes, but using both swords to attack in melee combat is tantamount to committing suicide. The knight gives up all defensive actions when they dual wield in this fashion. In the world of rifts giving up defense is crazy. Even with the ridiculous GI Joe rules you could end up dead quickly. I was never a killer GM, but if a character did something like this, I sure wasn't going to fudge any rolls in their defense.

Depends, if the opponent is using a technological weapon, they can still auto dodge thanks to Zen combat.

I have always played and my GMs have always held, if you lose auto-parry you also lose auto-dodge. So you are still screwed.

Riftdevil wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Riftdevil wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Yes, 2 psi-swords doing 10d6 damage each is very nice. This is not a mistake.

Yes, but using both swords to attack in melee combat is tantamount to committing suicide. The knight gives up all defensive actions when they dual wield in this fashion. In the world of rifts giving up defense is crazy. Even with the ridiculous GI Joe rules you could end up dead quickly. I was never a killer GM, but if a character did something like this, I sure wasn't going to fudge any rolls in their defense.

Depends, if the opponent is using a technological weapon, they can still auto dodge thanks to Zen combat.

I have always played and my GMs have always held, if you lose auto-parry you also lose auto-dodge. So you are still screwed.

A fine house rule! but a house rule is all it is

Could also still do Entangle techniques as defenses (albeit against melee) after doing a Twin Strike against someone.

Strangely bereft of describing penalties of what entangle does on RUEp340/345. Presumably you can't use the limb that's entangled but besides that...

I would think that the entangler should have some penalties too, like if I was holding a guy's wrist in my armpit I'd have trouble throwing punches with that hand. If I were using a sai or trident to entangle someone's sword I'd probably have trouble stabbing them with it.

A really long weapon line a chain, on the other hand, might have lots of room to hold someone entangled while still leaving free ends to hit them with.

HU2p68 mentions the entangler can't attack the entangled at all (though it doesn't mention a vice versa restriction) so it might be good to use that as inspirations for RUE rulings, even though I don't think RUE restrictions entanglers in that way (nor does N&SSp130)

About growth and cyber armor, specifically with a cyberknight. At level 4 or so the armor is a living bond with them, it even regenerates in it's own and magically increases MDC as well. If you made a knight grow or shrink, their implant would adapt with them.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Riftdevil wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Riftdevil wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Yes, 2 psi-swords doing 10d6 damage each is very nice. This is not a mistake.

Yes, but using both swords to attack in melee combat is tantamount to committing suicide. The knight gives up all defensive actions when they dual wield in this fashion. In the world of rifts giving up defense is crazy. Even with the ridiculous GI Joe rules you could end up dead quickly. I was never a killer GM, but if a character did something like this, I sure wasn't going to fudge any rolls in their defense.

Depends, if the opponent is using a technological weapon, they can still auto dodge thanks to Zen combat.

I have always played and my GMs have always held, if you lose auto-parry you also lose auto-dodge. So you are still screwed.

A fine house rule! but a house rule is all it is

Lol, true! That early GM felt he had to do it, and everyone agreed, because a juicer character with a couple of TW light blades was wrecking havoc on everyone. Paired weapons is one of Palladium's uglier combat rules.

I had thought there was something preventing the Giant spell being used on MDC beings but can't seem to find it. Maybe thinking if the Titanizer symbiote in SDM.

Tor wrote:I had thought there was something preventing the Giant spell being used on MDC beings but can't seem to find it. Maybe thinking if the Titanizer symbiote in SDM.

According to the book of magic, the Giant spell explictly works on MDC beings and doubles their MDC, it's that it cannot be used on greater supernatural beings or adult dragons, godlings or gods. but it does work on lesser supernatural beings and dragon hatchlings.

Page 133... ah interesting, note to double the MDC as opposed to tripling the HP/SDC total, this note wasn't in FoM originally. Nor the restriction on (greater) supernaturals, (adult) dragons, godligns or gods. I guess Hatchlings and Demigods are fair play.

Still an epic broken spell for guys like the Amaki.

Riftdevil wrote:Lol, true! That early GM felt he had to do it, and everyone agreed, because a juicer character with a couple of TW light blades was wrecking havoc on everyone. Paired weapons is one of Palladium's uglier combat rules.

i'm not seeing a huge problem. first off, it's melee. before you can do anything, you need to get close. huge advantage to anyone not using melee weapons.

secondly, how much damage was he doing, 2d4x10 MD between the two of them? he could just use the juicer rifle that does 1d6x10+10 out to 4,000 feet and only be 5 points of damage lower on average.

doesn't seem necessary or fair to take away the primary source of defence (and frankly the main feature of the OCC) from a character to compensate for a puny 5 points of damage extra on average. i think you all kinda over-reacted on that one. (and while his strike rolls were likely higher with the swords, since the other guy gets to parry, he shouldn't be hitting that much more often).

unless you mean losing the automatic dodge on a simultaneous strike (ie one where you explicitly give up your defence to deny the enemy their defence). but that's got nothing to do with twin swords; you can simultaneous strike with all kinds of weapons. it isn't even strictly limited to a certain range, so RAW you could fire a missile from thousands of miles away to do a simultaneous strike (though i would expect the GM to deny that one no matter what the rules say, as it is both clearly quite silly and horribly broken).

Since paired weapons can apply to ancients weapons, you aren't limited to melee if you do throwing weapons, and those can be enchanted to return. Someone with flaming winged javelin tattoos for example, would be pretty dangerous with paired weapons.

5 points is the average if you're using a 2D4 weapon, which is like a Vibro-Saber, Juicers are strong enough I think they'd be using bigger more damaging weapons, and Lightblades definitely do more, though I like to think the Juicer has to be psychic to use them unless otherwise indicated

Tor wrote:Since paired weapons can apply to ancients weapons, you aren't limited to melee if you do throwing weapons, and those can be enchanted to return. Someone with flaming winged javelin tattoos for example, would be pretty dangerous with paired weapons.

5 points is the average if you're using a 2D4 weapon, which is like a Vibro-Saber, Juicers are strong enough I think they'd be using bigger more damaging weapons, and Lightblades definitely do more, though I like to think the Juicer has to be psychic to use them unless otherwise indicated

sure, but it still wouldn't be broken, because you could still do very similar damage from vastly greater range.

there are guns that let you pulse for 1d6x10+10 damage out there. 2d4x10 is more damage, but not by a lot, and you can't use automatic parry against the pulse. i think the game balance is unlikely to fall apart just from a juicer getting an extra 5 damage on average without sacrificing defence.

i mean, heck, if we really want to go nuts, there are weapons that can deal quite a bit more damage at vastly longer range, to an area. it's expensive to maintain that damage, but then, it's also expensive to fight large groups of enemies no matter how you do it.

Using guns costs money for recharging e-clips and stuff. Also makes you a target for sub-particle acceleration. TW weapons don't have that kind of upkeep although there is that higher purchase cost. We could compare economy of TW-converted guns but we know how that nerfs the damage by RMB.

Most guns can't bypass Impervious to Energy Not to mention no PP bonus unless you're a sharpshooter. Plus bursting with a pulse reduces accuracy.

*tries to figure out if Juicers could dual-wield Battlefury blades as they are 2handers but Juicers are strong*

Pulses by lasers don't have reduced accuracy in Rifts.

I think he was referring to the half bonuses with a pulse on Aimed shots.

I'm aware of what he's referring to, but RUE states lasers in particular don't suffer the penalty. Ion, particle beams, rail guns and ramjets do, however. Lasers have no recoil in rifts, so they're more accurate.

Alrik Vas wrote:I'm aware of what he's referring to, but RUE states lasers in particular don't suffer the penalty. Ion, particle beams, rail guns and ramjets do, however. Lasers have no recoil in rifts, so they're more accurate.

Yes...but the rules still say that pulses only get half their bonus. And since only lasers can pulse that would seem to apply to lasers.....

There are ion weapons that pulse I'm pretty sure. Think the NGR makes them. Regardless, if there's no recoil, and a pulse is so fast that it does triple single shot damage, instead of reduced like a burst, is there really a reason they would take a penalty other than "Palladium logic?"

Alrik Vas wrote:There are ion weapons that pulse I'm pretty sure. Think the NGR makes them. Regardless, if there's no recoil, and a pulse is so fast that it does triple single shot damage, instead of reduced like a burst, is there really a reason they would take a penalty other than "Palladium logic?"

Because the rules say so?
I would be interested in any other pulse weapons though. AFAIK only lasers have ever been give pulse settings and I would love to see a canon weapon that is not a laser with a pulse setting. (the precedent would be appreciated by all my games gadgeteers)

Alrik Vas wrote:I'm aware of what he's referring to, but RUE states lasers in particular don't suffer the penalty.

Was RUE the first place this was introduced? Wondering which page to see if reading it rings any bells for any preceding books.

eliakon wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:There are ion weapons that pulse I'm pretty sure. Think the NGR makes them. Regardless, if there's no recoil, and a pulse is so fast that it does triple single shot damage, instead of reduced like a burst, is there really a reason they would take a penalty other than "Palladium logic?"

Because the rules say so?
I would be interested in any other pulse weapons though. AFAIK only lasers have ever been give pulse settings and I would love to see a canon weapon that is not a laser with a pulse setting. (the precedent would be appreciated by all my games gadgeteers)

Triax TX-24 ion pulse pistol.
Triax TX-30 ion pulse rifle.
Northern Gun NG-IP7 ion pulse rifle.

You're welcome.

--flatline

Thank you.

if you get cybernetics up to the point that you are considered a partial borg. and lose half your ISP. when you reach level 4 and the armor bonds with your body is it still considered an implant? or can you get back your full ISP. since its now a part of you and not a normal cyber implant.
also can the Dwarves that make the armor make other types of implants that have that same merging ability?

rem1093 wrote:if you get cybernetics up to the point that you are considered a partial borg. and lose half your ISP. when you reach level 4 and the armor bonds with your body is it still considered an implant? or can you get back your full ISP. since its now a part of you and not a normal cyber implant.
also can the Dwarves that make the armor make other types of implants that have that same merging ability?

The armor is not made by dwarves, its just that cyberknights now have a special class ability to bond with their cyber armor. Thus its a feature of the class not the implant.

I recall the Conversion Book saying that pulses still count as a burst and get the +1 not the +3, so what changed this for lasers?

eliakon wrote:

rem1093 wrote:if you get cybernetics up to the point that you are considered a partial borg. and lose half your ISP. when you reach level 4 and the armor bonds with your body is it still considered an implant? or can you get back your full ISP. since its now a part of you and not a normal cyber implant.
also can the Dwarves that make the armor make other types of implants that have that same merging ability?

The armor is not made by dwarves, its just that cyberknights now have a special class ability to bond with their cyber armor. Thus its a feature of the class not the implant.

You're are right, it wasn't dwarves that made the armor, it was a Techno-wizard (page 21 of the Cyber knight book). But still can they make other cyborg tech, with the same ability as the armor? Or can the knight get its full ISP back, at level 4?

rem1093 wrote:

eliakon wrote:

rem1093 wrote:if you get cybernetics up to the point that you are considered a partial borg. and lose half your ISP. when you reach level 4 and the armor bonds with your body is it still considered an implant? or can you get back your full ISP. since its now a part of you and not a normal cyber implant.
also can the Dwarves that make the armor make other types of implants that have that same merging ability?

The armor is not made by dwarves, its just that cyberknights now have a special class ability to bond with their cyber armor. Thus its a feature of the class not the implant.

You're are right, it wasn't dwarves that made the armor, it was a Techno-wizard (page 21 of the Cyber knight book). But still can they make other cyborg tech, with the same ability as the armor? Or can the knight get its full ISP back, at level 4?

Question #1 would appear to be "No" there is no other examples of special living cybernetics among the knights, it is not a property of any of the canon TW cybernetics, and as the bonding to the armor is an OCC ability and not a property of the armor it seems moot. If I took the same armor and installed it on anyone else it would not ever bond to them....because they are not cyber-knights. Added in that the OCC does not say that you have to have the armor provided from a special source and it becomes apparent that it is not a property of the armor but of the knight.
Question #2 is "As your GM how he chooses to run this" unfortunately. There are arguments on both sides of the issue and they both have rule support. In the absence of a clear statement one way or the other its another of those Palladium grey areas.

eliakon wrote:

rem1093 wrote:

eliakon wrote:

rem1093 wrote:if you get cybernetics up to the point that you are considered a partial borg. and lose half your ISP. when you reach level 4 and the armor bonds with your body is it still considered an implant? or can you get back your full ISP. since its now a part of you and not a normal cyber implant.
also can the Dwarves that make the armor make other types of implants that have that same merging ability?

The armor is not made by dwarves, its just that cyberknights now have a special class ability to bond with their cyber armor. Thus its a feature of the class not the implant.

You're are right, it wasn't dwarves that made the armor, it was a Techno-wizard (page 21 of the Cyber knight book). But still can they make other cyborg tech, with the same ability as the armor? Or can the knight get its full ISP back, at level 4?

Question #1 would appear to be "No" there is no other examples of special living cybernetics among the knights, it is not a property of any of the canon TW cybernetics, and as the bonding to the armor is an OCC ability and not a property of the armor it seems moot. If I took the same armor and installed it on anyone else it would not ever bond to them....because they are not cyber-knights. Added in that the OCC does not say that you have to have the armor provided from a special source and it becomes apparent that it is not a property of the armor but of the knight.

Just because we haven't seen any examples yet doesn't mean they don't exist. (The knights are keeping the fact that the armor can even do what it does a secret. As for that type of cybernetic there is the Anti monster that has TW cybernetics that have the same propertys. As for the armor itself, they nights can't just go to any place and get an armor that can do the same. As i said the CK book says that the process of fusing the armor to the knight was created by a TW, and its the process (fusing of the armor to the body) that gives the armor abilities that it has, not just because it is a CK.

rem1093 wrote:

eliakon wrote:

rem1093 wrote:

eliakon wrote:

rem1093 wrote:if you get cybernetics up to the point that you are considered a partial borg. and lose half your ISP. when you reach level 4 and the armor bonds with your body is it still considered an implant? or can you get back your full ISP. since its now a part of you and not a normal cyber implant.
also can the Dwarves that make the armor make other types of implants that have that same merging ability?

The armor is not made by dwarves, its just that cyberknights now have a special class ability to bond with their cyber armor. Thus its a feature of the class not the implant.

You're are right, it wasn't dwarves that made the armor, it was a Techno-wizard (page 21 of the Cyber knight book). But still can they make other cyborg tech, with the same ability as the armor? Or can the knight get its full ISP back, at level 4?

Question #1 would appear to be "No" there is no other examples of special living cybernetics among the knights, it is not a property of any of the canon TW cybernetics, and as the bonding to the armor is an OCC ability and not a property of the armor it seems moot. If I took the same armor and installed it on anyone else it would not ever bond to them....because they are not cyber-knights. Added in that the OCC does not say that you have to have the armor provided from a special source and it becomes apparent that it is not a property of the armor but of the knight.

Just because we haven't seen any examples yet doesn't mean they don't exist. (The knights are keeping the fact that the armor can even do what it does a secret. As for that type of cybernetic there is the Anti monster that has TW cybernetics that have the same propertys. As for the armor itself, they nights can't just go to any place and get an armor that can do the same. As i said the CK book says that the process of fusing the armor to the knight was created by a TW, and its the process (fusing of the armor to the body) that gives the armor abilities that it has, not just because it is a CK.

The Anti-Monster requires a magical ritual to transform the person into a supernatural being.....this is a wee bit different than a suit of cyber-armor bonding to a mortal....
But yes you could, as a house rule, say that the CKs have all sorts of stuff that no one knows about and add anything you want.
But the fact that there isn't any information on it what so ever is not proof of secret process exists.
And the exact statement is "When a Cyber-Knight has completed his years of .........The warrior is also give special "Cyber-Armor" that is fused to his body."
then "Level Four: Living Armor: Unknown to even most friend and allies of the Knights, at 4th level the armor becomes a living part of the Cyber-Knight and can repair itself...."
There is nothing in that that suggests the armor is a magic item, that its properties are magical. This is very important to note because the armor is NOT penalized by additional implants (like magic items are) and even cyberknights who are partial borgs can have living armor (but can not use magic items) thus the armor can not be, in any way shape or form, a magic item.
Since it can not be a magic item, and there is no explicit statement that I can find that the armor is made by TWs, AND the ability to use it as a living item is a class feature of the Cyber-Knight......I must infer that the bonding and living armor is a feature of the CK training and not the armor itself.
Which is why I do not think that there are any other implants or devices that also become living....if there were then those would have been mentioned.