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Why is it that when you hit the main body with an area effect weapon like missiles and grenades the other areas don't take half damage? Does depleting the main body MDC completely destroy the robot/PA?

Where are the battle field salvage rules in Rifts?

For ease of tracking.
Also the main body represents over all damage or loss of combat power.
Doing such would make use of AOEs highly crippling and unbalancing.

Well lets see,

Depleting MDC of Main Body will shut down the Bot/PA making it useless according to the asterisks marked notes in the individual Bot/PA description, I basically consider it to shot to pieces.

I'm not sure about salvage rules, guess it depends on the GM. I don't remember any offhand and the GM would have to control what he/she wants the party getting their hands on.

The area effect has been done in the forums and I am not going to go into it other than to say, IMHO, the splash effect is not used for simplicity, with varying size targets, varying sizes of blasts, and direction of impact it would get a little complex quickly, again IMHO

In the rules as written the blast effect only ever applies to main body locations. It is unrealistic but it helps book keeping from bogging down when people start flipping mini missiles around and keeps aoe weapons from being totally unblanaced.

Something like a plasma mini missile doing 1d6x10 hitting a person in heavy body armor would be survivable with the current rules but would be near guaranteed kills or at least armor removal if the AOE hit all locations as hands/feet armor would just evaporate.

I know I have seen some house rules where they wanted the realism and thats fine but the default rule is main body only.

In Rifts I can only think of the deep sea salvage text in Underseas.
In the 3G books the Three Galaxies book has that junk planet...it might have some salvage text.
And in the Dimension Builder there is a junk dimension that I think has some salvage text.
There is the Salvage Skill in MiO.

Otherwise salvage operations are left to the GM to decide mostly.

I say the non-main locations take damage in AoA, common sense here.

The "only called shots" crowd would have you think stepping in lava can't hurt a bot's foot because lava doesn't roll to strike.

I think it's a fair point, Tor. Though what would you say for a successful roll with impact negating splash damage?

Wouldn't be the most absurd thing in the world.

In N&SS a roll with impact completely negates receiving any damage from a body flip whereas in other games it only reduces the impact damage by half, so if you're adopting that elsewhere, could do that with explosions too.

SpiritInterface wrote:Why is it that when you hit the main body with an area effect weapon like missiles and grenades the other areas don't take half damage? Does depleting the main body MDC completely destroy the robot/PA?

Where are the battle field salvage rules in Rifts?

Salvage Rules in Rifts? i don't think I've ever seen any in Rifts.

As for AoE and Main Body. It is fast and simple.

The SAMAS has 10 identified locations in the Rifts Main Book (for ex, it's handy) and is 2.4m x 1.06-3mt wide. A UAR-1 Enforcer has 19 locations and is 6m x 3.6m wide. Body Armor has at least 6 under the individual location model Rifts adopted in WB11 and continued to RUE (prior to this it was one location for everything). You can substitute in what ever you like beyond these 3 examples.

Lets say each is attacked with an SRM or even a volley (any damaging class except AP) as they all have a blast radius between 3.1-6m. Resulting damage value is irrelevant here. However, by the rules now the Main Body gets hit only, so you only have to mark off 1 location in either case. We can even look at Mini-Missiles (Rifts default missile of choice it seems), which have blast radius range between 0.9m-6.1m depending on type.

Now if we apply the AOE to other locations:
-you would have to adjust an additional 9 locations on the SAMAS, and 17 on the Enforcer (the Pilot's Compartment is generally only depleted after the Main Body), and 5 more on the body armor.
-depending on the damage value rolled and the protective value of the location you might destroy some of those secondary locations and then have damage bleed over into the Main Body or other logical trees (like the hand transfers to the arm before the main body), so you have to retally the Main Body/locations potentially multiple times from a single hit.
-depending on the missile blast radius, you would also have to decide which secondary locations are hit since some locations can be considered outside of the blast radius depending upon where they actually hit the target. In other words you would need to work out the exact center of the blast and workout from there to see what is in the radius. Granted the bigger the blast radius and such, the less this becomes an issue, but you can still have locations that are "blocked" from direct attack by the AOE.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to spread the damage over multiple areas instead of doing the same damage to multiple areas.

Tor wrote:I say the non-main locations take damage in AoA, common sense here.

The "only called shots" crowd would have you think stepping in lava can't hurt a bot's foot because lava doesn't roll to strike.

Nah. It doesn't work like that.
Stepping in lava is neither an attack nor a strike, so Called Shots are not applicable. The lava just does damage.

Tor wrote:I say the non-main locations take damage in AoA, common sense here.

The "only called shots" crowd would have you think stepping in lava can't hurt a bot's foot because lava doesn't roll to strike.

No need to be insulting Tor, just because someone doesn't agree with what you consider "common sense".

Realistically you would need a diagram of each PA/Bot drawn to the same scale and blast templates for each size AoA so you could fairly apply damage (a 5ft blast AoA wouldn't necessarily hit every location on say an Enforcer or Spider Skull). I've used this system in an other system and it wasn't fast, although to be fair it had rolls for where the blast center wound up, but even then it had templates for front, sides, and back of each target.

In games I run (mostly live at a table games) I have random hit location tables for a lot of PA/Bots (still working on rebuilding, my old file got deleted by accident), and I will (if time permits etc) allow a blast to hit 1d4 locations (depending on blast size) to make AoA more dangerous. Obviously if you have 30 skelebots in the fight I just go to Main Body for ease of play, but if there's only say 2 Enforcers then the tables come out.

That's how I do it but those are My Own House Rules.

Plasma seems like it'd be the most dangerous to multiple locations. Frag is more or less lackluster vs actual armor.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Stepping in lava is neither an attack nor a strike, so Called Shots are not applicable. The lava just does damage.

How would a lack of called shot negate the perceived requirement of a called shot to hit a non-main location?

Blast radius doesn't need to make a strike roll either, it just hits everything in the radius.

The idea that a strike roll is still applicable seems based on a tenuous argument on what you resist in a roll with impact to reduce explosion damage.

Do we even know if that's a strike roll, or if it's a 14+ like with a fall?

What do people resist in a roll-with-impact with an explosion that isn't from a missile? Like if you explode a missile launcher and its payload detonates, or a fusion block goes off?

Whatever that is, I say missiles are the same way.

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Stepping in lava is neither an attack nor a strike, so Called Shots are not applicable. The lava just does damage.

How would a lack of called shot negate the perceived requirement of a called shot to hit a non-main location?

Blast radius doesn't need to make a strike roll either, it just hits everything in the radius.

The idea that a strike roll is still applicable seems based on a tenuous argument on what you resist in a roll with impact to reduce explosion damage.

Do we even know if that's a strike roll, or if it's a 14+ like with a fall?

What do people resist in a roll-with-impact with an explosion that isn't from a missile? Like if you explode a missile launcher and its payload detonates, or a fusion block goes off?

Whatever that is, I say missiles are the same way.

For the lava I would say "the part that was stuck in the lava takes the damage" (its just like a called shot that way....)
And the reason that we use the arbitrary abstraction that AoE only goes to the main body is that otherwise it invalidates several of the stated rules of the game. Specifically that MDC Body armor protects from MD attacks. If Only fully sealed enviormental armor provided such protection then that would mean that the rules are in error. Also it makes AoE attacks pretty much an instant kill as there is an infinite number of locations that could be separately targeted, meaning that, at the extreme, one could argue that every rivet takes the blast damage......

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Stepping in lava is neither an attack nor a strike, so Called Shots are not applicable. The lava just does damage.

How would a lack of called shot negate the perceived requirement of a called shot to hit a non-main location?

Blast radius doesn't need to make a strike roll either, it just hits everything in the radius.

The idea that a strike roll is still applicable seems based on a tenuous argument on what you resist in a roll with impact to reduce explosion damage.

Do we even know if that's a strike roll, or if it's a 14+ like with a fall?

What do people resist in a roll-with-impact with an explosion that isn't from a missile? Like if you explode a missile launcher and its payload detonates, or a fusion block goes off?

Whatever that is, I say missiles are the same way.

Every thing not every part of every thing. The parts of armor by the book are treated as part of the target not separate things. You already lost that debate.

A member of my group asked interesting questions

1) "Do all of the peripheral areas MDC contribute to and make up the main body of the Robot/PA?"
2) "Does depleting all of MDC of the main body completely destroy the Robot/PA?"

So far the arguments against AoE weapons damaging multiple areas are that the bookkeeping would be too hard. Ok, I can accept that.

1) "Do all of the peripheral areas MDC contribute to and make up the main body of the Robot/PA?"
2) "Does depleting all of MDC of the main body completely destroy the Robot/PA?"

Re: Point #1. No. If you add up all the non-main body locations they can exceed the Main Body.

Re: Point #2. Define Completely. The unit is destroyed enough to be unable to operate. It does not mean it has been reduced to nothing but bits and pieces automatically, or a pile of slag material. It can still have shape and parts to salvage.

I think their might be a salvage table in one of the robo tech books

ShadowLogan wrote:

1) "Do all of the peripheral areas MDC contribute to and make up the main body of the Robot/PA?"
2) "Does depleting all of MDC of the main body completely destroy the Robot/PA?"

Re: Point #1. No. If you add up all the non-main body locations they can exceed the Main Body.

Re: Point #2. Define Completely. The unit is destroyed enough to be unable to operate. It does not mean it has been reduced to nothing but bits and pieces automatically, or a pile of slag material. It can still have shape and parts to salvage.

Point #2 is where the SDC/MDC system falls down, the rules say that completely depleting the DC of an item completely destroys it and that it only take doing 10-20% to disable it.

SpiritInterface wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

1) "Do all of the peripheral areas MDC contribute to and make up the main body of the Robot/PA?"
2) "Does depleting all of MDC of the main body completely destroy the Robot/PA?"

Re: Point #1. No. If you add up all the non-main body locations they can exceed the Main Body.

Re: Point #2. Define Completely. The unit is destroyed enough to be unable to operate. It does not mean it has been reduced to nothing but bits and pieces automatically, or a pile of slag material. It can still have shape and parts to salvage.

Point #2 is where the SDC/MDC system falls down, the rules say that completely depleting the DC of an item completely destroys it and that it only take doing 10-20% to disable it.

As I said, Define " Completely" because with respect to general specific locations, yes that is correct (it's gone). However in terms of the Main Body, under the MDC listing it generally will have a note like this "Depleting the M.D.C. of the main body will shut the armor (or Robot) down completely, making it useless.", Text like this doesn't equate to being completely destroyed (reduced to ash/bits/etc), just that the unit will no longer function. Which is a far different thing since being unable to function leave a burnt out/swiss cheesed hull.

eliakon wrote:For the lava I would say "the part that was stuck in the lava takes the damage" (its just like a called shot that way....)
And the reason that we use the arbitrary abstraction that AoE only goes to the main body is that otherwise it invalidates several of the stated rules of the game.

Several? There's RUEp362 left "Gun Terms" under Main Body:
"To strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make a "Called Shot." or roll a Natural 20."

Huh... so actually... wouldn't that mean a natural 20 with a missile or grenade could hit everything else?

Doesn't seem like a pit of lava or a mine are able to roll called shots or natural 20s though, so it should be impossible for them to hurt the robot's foot.

Called shots are needed to aim at non-main things, but what's being ignored here is that blast radius can hit things not aimed at. The 'direct hit' is what is aimed at, stuff in the blast radius is not aimed for, it's just automatically included.

Missile Combat's "roll with impact" statement I believe is talking about the target of the direct hit making a roll vs the attacker's strike, because that's who the strike is aimed at. Rolling with the impact of a strike not aimed at you doesn't make sense to me, makes more sense to use the generic 14+ for "number not available".

If you shoot a missile at an invisible guy (or if you are blind) there is a strike penalty. Does it make any sense that it would be easier to roll with the impact when caught in the blast radius of a missile aimed at someone nearby in this context?

eliakon wrote:MDC Body armor protects from MD attacks. If Only fully sealed enviormental armor provided such protection then that would mean that the rules are in error.

Something doesn't have to be environmental armor to fully protect you, it just needs to lack an AR.

Someone in non-enviro might drown in water or suffocate in space but I don't think explosions have that tier of seepy quality. I think bathing in lava could cause a problem even if your armor was immune to heat/fire but even then, pretty slowly. Probably somewhere along the lines of the Warmonger PA.

Blue Lion wrote:Every thing not every part of every thing. The parts of armor by the book are treated as part of the target not separate things. You already lost that debate.

Not really, I concede there's a "only called shots hit non-main" rule but maintain that this is based on single-target aimed attacks, not area-effect stuff. It makes sense to ignore this for stuff like explosions/lava.

SpiritInterface wrote:Why is it that when you hit the main body with an area effect weapon like missiles and grenades the other areas don't take half damage?

Short answer: Because it's the rule. (A dumb one, but that's the Rules as Written).

I personally do not think it is realistic and apply common sense to allow anything within the blast radius to take half damage as well as a house rule. I also apply S/MDC values to body organic parts so they match technological items. That way, arms and legs can be blown off even though the body remains functional. I like more lethality in my game.

SpiritInterface wrote:Does depleting the main body MDC completely destroy the robot/PA?

No. It but the bot does shut down and is nothing more than a pile of useless smoking metal and wire, sending out showers of sparks and possible radiation leaks. Hopefully the pilot was in a reinforce pilots compartment to protect him from these dangers.

SpiritInterface wrote:Where are the battle field salvage rules in Rifts?

No idea on salvage rules. Id assume if you took out the main body, you might be able to find a few sheets of MDC armor you could salvage. Assuming you didnt blow off arms and legs, those can be salvaged, along with weapon systems. Really, its up to you. I usually simplify it and apply some random value in MDC units worth of scrap metal. ("You find 150 MDC worth of usable scrap metal for future repairs")

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:For the lava I would say "the part that was stuck in the lava takes the damage" (its just like a called shot that way....)
And the reason that we use the arbitrary abstraction that AoE only goes to the main body is that otherwise it invalidates several of the stated rules of the game.

Several? There's RUEp362 left "Gun Terms" under Main Body:
"To strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make a "Called Shot." or roll a Natural 20."

Huh... so actually... wouldn't that mean a natural 20 with a missile or grenade could hit everything else?

Doesn't seem like a pit of lava or a mine are able to roll called shots or natural 20s though, so it should be impossible for them to hurt the robot's foot.

They don't have to roll a strike. ITS NOT A STRIKE!
You cant 'parry' a pool of lava you stepped in, its not an attack. It is simply a 'this takes damage'
The two are only similar as 'things that do damage' they are not 'things that are making strikes'

Tor wrote:Called shots are needed to aim at non-main things, but what's being ignored here is that blast radius can hit things not aimed at. The 'direct hit' is what is aimed at, stuff in the blast radius is not aimed for, it's just automatically included.

Yes, but each thing is, RAW, only damaged once. You damage each soldier hit once, not each hit location on each soldier.....

Tor wrote:Missile Combat's "roll with impact" statement I believe is talking about the target of the direct hit making a roll vs the attacker's strike, because that's who the strike is aimed at. Rolling with the impact of a strike not aimed at you doesn't make sense to me, makes more sense to use the generic 14+ for "number not available".

If you want to make a house rule that is fine. But the RAW say that you roll with the strike roll.....

Tor wrote:If you shoot a missile at an invisible guy (or if you are blind) there is a strike penalty. Does it make any sense that it would be easier to roll with the impact when caught in the blast radius of a missile aimed at someone nearby in this context?

The RAW may not be perfect....but they do have the advantage of being the actual, official rules. Thus with out implementing a house rule to change the written rules they are sort of the rules in use......

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:MDC Body armor protects from MD attacks. If Only fully sealed enviormental armor provided such protection then that would mean that the rules are in error.

Something doesn't have to be environmental armor to fully protect you, it just needs to lack an AR.

Not under your rule. Under your rule a person in any of the various armors that is not totally sealed would be killed by any AOE attack.
This means that suddenly a large number of armors are not really armor since they provide no protection from AoE attacks. My stance is that if the rules intended for AoE to totally bypass non-sealed armor and be instantly fatal that there would have been an explicit statement to the effect that "MDC Armor protects completely until depleted.....unless you are hit with AOE then it does not provide any protection unless compleately sealed and all hit locations are compleately covered. In which case it will only provide one protection since all small/sub hit locations such as fingers and toes will be depleated instantly by the first hit."

Tor wrote:Someone in non-enviro might drown in water or suffocate in space but I don't think explosions have that tier of seepy quality. I think bathing in lava could cause a problem even if your armor was immune to heat/fire but even then, pretty slowly. Probably somewhere along the lines of the Warmonger PA.

If the armor does not totally cover every square millimeter of the body then by your standards it DOES have that seepy quality.

Tor wrote:

Blue Lion wrote:Every thing not every part of every thing. The parts of armor by the book are treated as part of the target not separate things. You already lost that debate.

Not really, I concede there's a "only called shots hit non-main" rule but maintain that this is based on single-target aimed attacks, not area-effect stuff. It makes sense to ignore this for stuff like explosions/lava.

Yes you can make a house rule to change the RAW if you like. That does not mean that the RAW is different, only that you choose to ignore it when it is not convenient for you to follow the RAW

SpiritInterface wrote:Does depleting the main body MDC completely destroy the robot/PA? Where are the battle field salvage rules in Rifts?

The answers to both these questions is in Sourcebook One Revised pg. 35

Short answer
Depleting the MDC of the unit shuts it down, however it can be salvaged and repaired up until -80 MDC

eliakon wrote:They don't have to roll a strike. ITS NOT A STRIKE!

You don't have to roll to strike people caught in your blast radius either.

If you hit your prime target (or if you miss them and your missile hits the ground, or a wall behind them) your blast radius is still going to affect everyone in it.

There are strike penalties to hit blind people or to hit fast-moving people. None of these matter when it's people caught in the blast radius, you're not rolling to strike them, the strike role is solely for the target you are aiming at.

Think of this: it is possible both to throw/shoot a grenade (strike rolls) or to wire one up as a trap. You could probably wire a missile as a trap too, or if you shoot a missile launcher sometimes the payload blows up (a couple vehicles in Mercs did that if I recall)

Does not being a strike mean a grenade-trap's radius can damage secondary locations, but being thrown or shot suddenly means it can't?

eliakon wrote:You cant 'parry' a pool of lava you stepped in, its not an attack. It is simply a 'this takes damage'

Same with a blast radius, you can't parry or dodge that either. You can only roll with impact, which can be done with non-attacks, like falls or explosions.

The two are only similar as 'things that do damage' they are not 'things that are making strikes'

eliakon wrote:each thing is, RAW, only damaged once. You damage each soldier hit once, not each hit location on each soldier.....

The same RAW would prohibit lava-damaging feet.

Also: isn't block-sacrifice a violation of this rule, since a called shot isn't being made to the arms?

If lava can hit non-main locations because it is not a 'strike' then I am arguing that area-effect damage is also not a strike to secondary targets. It is only a strike to the prime target.

eliakon wrote:each thing is, RAW, only damaged once. You damage each soldier hit once, not each hit location on each soldier.....

You keep saying RAW, but this relies on the interpretation that the 'must be called' text is referring to area effect damage, I'm saying it isn't.

Area effect damage isn't a strike because you don't make strike rolls against secondary targets.

eliakon wrote:

Tor wrote:Missile Combat's "roll with impact" statement I believe is talking about the target of the direct hit making a roll vs the attacker's strike, because that's who the strike is aimed at. Rolling with the impact of a strike not aimed at you doesn't make sense to me, makes more sense to use the generic 14+ for "number not available".

If you want to make a house rule that is fine. But the RAW say that you roll with the strike roll.....

This isn't a house rule. Resisting a strike roll only applies when it is appropriate: when it is a strike roll made at you.

People to whom the strike was not made against (secondary targets made in the blast radius) are not targets of a strike so it would not make sense to have them resist that roll.

Since there is not any roll against them, they fall under 'when no roll is available, use 14+' guidelines.

eliakon wrote:The RAW may not be perfect....but they do have the advantage of being the actual, official rules. Thus with out implementing a house rule to change the written rules they are sort of the rules in use......

If you think on it, this isn't a house rule at all.

RUEp362 says 14+ when a 'strike roll is not available'. I present this: even though a strike roll was made against the primary target, it is NOT available for you to resist, because that strike roll is only in the context of, and thus only available to, the person against which the strike was made.

RUEp363 talks about the 'actual target'. Strikes need targets. If you are not a target, then the strike does not apply to you.

eliakon wrote:Not under your rule. Under your rule a person in any of the various armors that is not totally sealed would be killed by any AOE attack.

I'm not inventing any rule here.

Unless something (body armor, PA, bot) talks about the person wearing it being exposed (such is the case with the Flanker PA) then they wouldn't be.

Not being environmental doesn't mean you are exposed.

Exposed could simply mean 'in a direct line of fire'. Armor can completely block direct lines of fire (the inability to snipe through an unprotected portion of MDC armor) while still not being environmental. Overlapping plates are an example. Overlapping plates could protect from an explosion but not from drowning. Explosions could happen too quickly to seep-around the water water can. Lava might be an exception to that if you stood in it more than a moment and there was an exposed portion of the armor on the lower body. If it was just the upper body you'd be okay if you didn't sink too far.

eliakon wrote:If the armor does not totally cover every square millimeter of the body then by your standards it DOES have that seepy quality.

True, but we would be told if an armor doesn't do that because it would be possible to called-shot the wearer, like with the Flanker Robot.

A lot of the artwork done (Juicer armor) suggests non-coverage but the lack of an assigned AR disagrees with what the art suggests, it might well be that the guy wearing Juicer ARmor is only wearing a portion of the suit, kind of like how some other armor pics show people with the helmet off. It doesn't mean the full suit would not protect them entirely.

eliakon wrote:

I concede there's a "only called shots hit non-main" rule but maintain that this is based on single-target aimed attacks, not area-effect stuff.
It makes sense to ignore this for stuff like explosions/lava.

Yes you can make a house rule to change the RAW if you like. That does not mean that the RAW is different, only that you choose to ignore it when it is not convenient for you to follow the RAW

Initially this was about ignoring something for lava/explosions because I didn't remember the particulars.

Now that you have helpfully pointed out that requiring a natural 20 or a called shot is only mandatory to STRIKE non-main locations, I am flip-flopping.

I am arguing that area-effect damage is not a strike against things besides the main target. So therefore, since you are not rolling strikes against those secondary locations, they are not subject to this rule.

They are simply damaged, not struck. Just like if you exist in the path of a lava flow, you exist in the path of an explosion.

For that reason, I think this would also mean that if you roll a critical, this would only apply to the target of the direct hit, and it would not multiply the damage for blast radius victims. If there anything to disagree with this?

Also: do we know for sure if we roll damage once (and apply an equal half to blast radius) or if you roll separately (div 2) for everything in the radius?

Found the answer for this last bit on RUEp363

"a grenade or mini-missiles that does 5D6 MD inflicts the full 5D6 MD to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of), and everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the MEga-Damage rolled for the explosion"

So definitely a single damage roll, divided by 2 for stuff in the blast area. I still think a critical modifier, since it is not actually 'rolled' (it's a multiplier) might just apply to the directly hit target.

Looking at this makes me more confident. "The target it strikes". It's talking about the Direct Hit. The indirect hits (things in the blast area) are not struck, no strike roll is made against them, so there is no roll to resist. Thus no necessity for called shot and roll a 14+

ShadowLogan wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

1) "Do all of the peripheral areas MDC contribute to and make up the main body of the Robot/PA?"
2) "Does depleting all of MDC of the main body completely destroy the Robot/PA?"

Re: Point #1. No. If you add up all the non-main body locations they can exceed the Main Body.

Re: Point #2. Define Completely. The unit is destroyed enough to be unable to operate. It does not mean it has been reduced to nothing but bits and pieces automatically, or a pile of slag material. It can still have shape and parts to salvage.

Point #2 is where the SDC/MDC system falls down, the rules say that completely depleting the DC of an item completely destroys it and that it only take doing 10-20% to disable it.

As I said, Define " Completely" because with respect to general specific locations, yes that is correct (it's gone). However in terms of the Main Body, under the MDC listing it generally will have a note like this "Depleting the M.D.C. of the main body will shut the armor (or Robot) down completely, making it useless.", Text like this doesn't equate to being completely destroyed (reduced to ash/bits/etc), just that the unit will no longer function. Which is a far different thing since being unable to function leave a burnt out/swiss cheesed hull.

Given the descriptions on the nature of SDC/MDC in the various books depleting an item or object's DC renders into completely useless scrap with maybe a value of raw materials. This has led to some interesting debate on the nature of the DC of Robot/PA's, is it just the Armor of the vehicle or is it their total structure the vehicle.

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:For the lava I would say "the part that was stuck in the lava takes the damage" (its just like a called shot that way....)
And the reason that we use the arbitrary abstraction that AoE only goes to the main body is that otherwise it invalidates several of the stated rules of the game.

Several? There's RUEp362 left "Gun Terms" under Main Body:
"To strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make a "Called Shot." or roll a Natural 20."

Huh... so actually... wouldn't that mean a natural 20 with a missile or grenade could hit everything else?

Doesn't seem like a pit of lava or a mine are able to roll called shots or natural 20s though, so it should be impossible for them to hurt the robot's foot.

Called shots are needed to aim at non-main things, but what's being ignored here is that blast radius can hit things not aimed at. The 'direct hit' is what is aimed at, stuff in the blast radius is not aimed for, it's just automatically included.

Missile Combat's "roll with impact" statement I believe is talking about the target of the direct hit making a roll vs the attacker's strike, because that's who the strike is aimed at. Rolling with the impact of a strike not aimed at you doesn't make sense to me, makes more sense to use the generic 14+ for "number not available".

If you shoot a missile at an invisible guy (or if you are blind) there is a strike penalty. Does it make any sense that it would be easier to roll with the impact when caught in the blast radius of a missile aimed at someone nearby in this context?

eliakon wrote:MDC Body armor protects from MD attacks. If Only fully sealed enviormental armor provided such protection then that would mean that the rules are in error.

Something doesn't have to be environmental armor to fully protect you, it just needs to lack an AR.

Someone in non-enviro might drown in water or suffocate in space but I don't think explosions have that tier of seepy quality. I think bathing in lava could cause a problem even if your armor was immune to heat/fire but even then, pretty slowly. Probably somewhere along the lines of the Warmonger PA.

Blue Lion wrote:Every thing not every part of every thing. The parts of armor by the book are treated as part of the target not separate things. You already lost that debate.

Not really, I concede there's a "only called shots hit non-main" rule but maintain that this is based on single-target aimed attacks, not area-effect stuff. It makes sense to ignore this for stuff like explosions/lava.

Loosing a debate means you failed to prove your point. The books examples and the ways the rules are written does not match your rules lawyering to hit all parts of one thing.

SpiritInterface wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

1) "Do all of the peripheral areas MDC contribute to and make up the main body of the Robot/PA?"
2) "Does depleting all of MDC of the main body completely destroy the Robot/PA?"

Re: Point #1. No. If you add up all the non-main body locations they can exceed the Main Body.

Re: Point #2. Define Completely. The unit is destroyed enough to be unable to operate. It does not mean it has been reduced to nothing but bits and pieces automatically, or a pile of slag material. It can still have shape and parts to salvage.

Point #2 is where the SDC/MDC system falls down, the rules say that completely depleting the DC of an item completely destroys it and that it only take doing 10-20% to disable it.

As I said, Define " Completely" because with respect to general specific locations, yes that is correct (it's gone). However in terms of the Main Body, under the MDC listing it generally will have a note like this "Depleting the M.D.C. of the main body will shut the armor (or Robot) down completely, making it useless.", Text like this doesn't equate to being completely destroyed (reduced to ash/bits/etc), just that the unit will no longer function. Which is a far different thing since being unable to function leave a burnt out/swiss cheesed hull.

Given the descriptions on the nature of SDC/MDC in the various books depleting an item or object's DC renders into completely useless scrap with maybe a value of raw materials. This has led to some interesting debate on the nature of the DC of Robot/PA's, is it just the Armor of the vehicle or is it their total structure the vehicle.

Except that it doesn't say that. It just says that its broken. Robots shut down at 0 MDC. As per the detailed rules on salvage and repair in Source Book One Revised & Expanded pg.35-38 A robot/Power Armor/Vehicle is not utterly destroyed until -81 MDC. From 0 to-80 though there is a lot to salvage/repair. If totally reduced to scrap the value is listed at 60-100cr per ton. Also note that the structure must have 15% of its armor remaining to be repaired.

I'd always wondered what the threshold for making a vehicle/bot/pa go boom. I really need to get my hands on the revised sourcebook.

And now we know....
>15% Can be fixed
15% > -80 Can be Salvaged
-81 metallic confetti

Blue Lion wrote:Loosing a debate means you failed to prove your point.

Lost according to you? Have you proven yours? Was a victor declared or did it just peter off because both sides got bored with it?

Blue Lion wrote:The books examples and the ways the rules are written does not match your rules lawyering to hit all parts of one thing.

Rules lawyers rely on the rules, I am interpreting the text. You seem to be opting to ignore the rules I have addressed in a broad sweep.

The book combat example doesn't matter, because combat examples are never perfect applications of the rules.

The UAR-1 v hovercraft missile shot ignores the penalty to strike for hitting a moving target (a fast-moving one, actually) this doesn't suddenly mean the penalty doesn't apply. The same with missile blast radius.

The idea of a missile hitting a vehicle and all the non-main shot locations being perfectly intact is just silly.

The rules say everything gets hit. Anything with a separate damage pool is a separate thing, a separate part. No pool is immune.

Tor wrote:

Blue Lion wrote:Loosing a debate means you failed to prove your point.

Lost according to you? Have you proven yours? Was a victor declared or did it just peter off because both sides got bored with it?

Blue Lion wrote:The books examples and the ways the rules are written does not match your rules lawyering to hit all parts of one thing.

Rules lawyers rely on the rules, I am interpreting the text. You seem to be opting to ignore the rules I have addressed in a broad sweep.

The book combat example doesn't matter, because combat examples are never perfect applications of the rules.

The UAR-1 v hovercraft missile shot ignores the penalty to strike for hitting a moving target (a fast-moving one, actually) this doesn't suddenly mean the penalty doesn't apply. The same with missile blast radius.

The idea of a missile hitting a vehicle and all the non-main shot locations being perfectly intact is just silly.

The rules say everything gets hit. Anything with a separate damage pool is a separate thing, a separate part. No pool is immune.

Yes everything gets hit, but by claiming every component of everything gets hit means everything is actually getting hit multiple times, a soldier gets hit 6 times by an AoE (main body, head, 2 legs and 2 arms) or more if there are listings for feet and hands etc. And non-EBA armor would be instant death in AoE attacks, the suit isn't sealed = the person would be exposed to the AoE.

Missiles with proper guidance and/or tracking systems wouldn't necessarily have penalties to hit fast moving targets. It's kind of what SAMs and Air to Air missiles do.

Alrik Vas wrote:Missiles with proper guidance and/or tracking systems wouldn't necessarily have penalties to hit fast moving targets. It's kind of what SAMs and Air to Air missiles do.

With proper ID programming "smart" missiles should be able to make called shots. This might require additional expense to add and update a Friend Foe recognition program to the missile but it could be worth it. Real world ARM are designed to only target active radar/radio and heat-seeker missiles go after heat of exhaust from jet engines. Granted these examples don't directly strike a pinpoint target because just getting some shrapnel into a combat jet can cripple the vehicle.

True! I was only talking about penalties for hitting fast moving targets, not making called shots, however.

Mechghost wrote:everything gets hit
by claiming every component of everything gets hit means everything is actually getting hit multiple times

I consider them to be separate things. They have separate damage pools and different repair costs in sourcebook 1.

Different things welded together to make 1 big thing. In many cases these called shot locations are distinct entities, weapons held by a power armor suit in the hand. A big sword or rifle which may not even be connected to the robot or PA.

a soldier gets hit 6 times by an AoE (main body, head, 2 legs and 2 arms) or more if there are listings for feet and hands etc.

Mechghost wrote:non-EBA armor would be instant death in AoE attacks, the suit isn't sealed = the person would be exposed to the AoE.

Wrong, being non-environmental doesn't mean something is exposed.

Unless you can hit it with a called shot (body armor with armor rating) it would not be possible to bypass the armor to harm the person under it.

Does it mean that guys with classic armor ratings would be hit? Yup. Consider the naked cyber-knight misted. Consider anyone in PF or the non-robot non-bionic non-powered armor ratings (even class 4 armor) hit, because those armor ratings are bypassable.

WB5p37, I put on a Standard Vest (ar 10). Why on earth would this let me survive a fragmentation missile? All kinds of parts of me are exposed. Shrapnel flies everywhere. It doesn't just magically hone in on my vest because it wasn't a called shot.

Needing a called shot just means that unless it's called, a missile could only hit the vest (prime target, 100% damage) and that parts not covered by it would be secondary targets (50% damage).

Non-environmental body armor lacking an armor rating, lacking any standards means of bypassing the MDC, would not have this problem. Even if concept art (like juicer armor) leads people to think it should. That's a reason to possibly house-rule giving it an AR like cyber-armor (sometimes it seems like that covers more flesh than juicer armor in pics) in which case the AR would reflect non-protection from missile, but that's house-ruling.

Alrik Vas wrote:Missiles with proper guidance and/or tracking systems wouldn't necessarily have penalties to hit fast moving targets. It's kind of what SAMs and Air to Air missiles do.

I like the idea of some tech being able to offset it. Big diff between eye-balling trying to shoot down a missile with your laser gun and using your PA's targetting system to help fire the laser built into the PA.

Tor wrote:

Mechghost wrote:everything gets hit
by claiming every component of everything gets hit means everything is actually getting hit multiple times

I consider them to be separate things. They have separate damage pools and different repair costs in sourcebook 1.

Different things welded together to make 1 big thing. In many cases these called shot locations are distinct entities, weapons held by a power armor suit in the hand. A big sword or rifle which may not even be connected to the robot or PA.

a soldier gets hit 6 times by an AoE (main body, head, 2 legs and 2 arms) or more if there are listings for feet and hands etc.

Mechghost wrote:non-EBA armor would be instant death in AoE attacks, the suit isn't sealed = the person would be exposed to the AoE.

Wrong, being non-environmental doesn't mean something is exposed.

Unless you can hit it with a called shot (body armor with armor rating) it would not be possible to bypass the armor to harm the person under it.

Does it mean that guys with classic armor ratings would be hit? Yup. Consider the naked cyber-knight misted. Consider anyone in PF or the non-robot non-bionic non-powered armor ratings (even class 4 armor) hit, because those armor ratings are bypassable.

WB5p37, I put on a Standard Vest (ar 10). Why on earth would this let me survive a fragmentation missile? All kinds of parts of me are exposed. Shrapnel flies everywhere. It doesn't just magically hone in on my vest because it wasn't a called shot.

Needing a called shot just means that unless it's called, a missile could only hit the vest (prime target, 100% damage) and that parts not covered by it would be secondary targets (50% damage).

Non-environmental body armor lacking an armor rating, lacking any standards means of bypassing the MDC, would not have this problem. Even if concept art (like juicer armor) leads people to think it should. That's a reason to possibly house-rule giving it an AR like cyber-armor (sometimes it seems like that covers more flesh than juicer armor in pics) in which case the AR would reflect non-protection from missile, but that's house-ruling.

Alrik Vas wrote:Missiles with proper guidance and/or tracking systems wouldn't necessarily have penalties to hit fast moving targets. It's kind of what SAMs and Air to Air missiles do.

I like the idea of some tech being able to offset it. Big diff between eye-balling trying to shoot down a missile with your laser gun and using your PA's targetting system to help fire the laser built into the PA.

Any armor that isn't sealed to provide complete protection is leaving the wearer open to the AoE , a plasma missile will roast someone in their armor by leaking in where the armor isn't sealed, the shockwave from explosives wouldn't be stopped either - everything is hit, it doesn't say everything that requires a called shot or has an AR is hit, by your definition.

Where I think your argument falls apart is with things taking multiple hits -everything in the AoE gets hit - not gets hit multiple times - a soldier gets hit, not a soldier gets hit 6 times, or 8 times if the boots have a damage pool, or 10 times if it also has gloves etc. The blast is not a solid sphere of perfect destruction, it's filled with flying bits of shrapnel that don't home in on every tiny piece of everything in the AoE. If the RAW meant to mean that every location of everything was hit it would have said that, not everything (because a robot is a thing and it's arm is a part of that thing, not another separate entity)

Being unsealed to gas/water/vacuum does not mean you have an exposed area to a blast. Cover should play a role here. I think of it like a straight line from the point of explosion outward. If something else impedes that line, then something behind it is not hit. As opposed to it being like you fell in a sphere of water and it leaks into every crevice.

Kinda like the left portion of this image from this thread

Course that involves some common-sense house-rule GMing (the idea that hiding behind a wall might protect you from an explosion on the other side of the wall) beyond the RAW.

This kind of principle is at play with non-environmental armor too. Just because it's not airtight doesn't mean all your skin isn't covered from direct damage. If you're not exposed enough to have an AR then you're covered enough to not be hit directly by an explosion. A smoke or gas grenade/missile on the other hand... problems, because gas sweeps, it doesn't go all insta-bang like an explosion.

Where I think your argument falls apart is with things taking multiple hits -everything in the AoE gets hit - not gets hit multiple times - a soldier gets hit, not a soldier gets hit 6 times, or 8 times if the boots have a damage pool, or 10 times if it also has gloves etc.

It's one collective hit that does damage to everywhere that gets hit.

The blast is not a solid sphere of perfect destruction, it's filled with flying bits of shrapnel that don't home in on every tiny piece of everything in the AoE.

I agree completely, but just as it won't magically hit every place, it won't magically exclude things that aren't the main body either.

GMs should use some common sense to exclude some parts, like if you shot a missile into the front chest place of a PA, the ammo drum and jets on the back of the PA shouldn't get hit because they're covered since the main body blocks them from being in the path of the expanding radius. The parts on front wouldn't be so lucky.

The issue is two fold here
1 it plays havoc with all the various armors in the game that do not have AR and are not totally enclosing (juicer plate, huntsman, millennium leaf, Altara swimsuits etc) That, by the RAW provide MDC protection......

2) It does damage to one thing multiple times.....
If I take damage 10 damage to each arm, and 10 to each leg and 10 to my head and 10 to my body then my armor has taken 60 damage......

I don't see how it plays havoc, we treat these things as unbypassable, same as always. If the GM wants to house-rule an AR for the Millenium Leaf ponchos and Altara swimsuits (akin to Cyber-Armor or NGR's MDC clothing) and make them not protect from missiles, it doesn't seem outrageous at all (Altara they can rely on their force-fields, Juicers can probably jump far enough to get out of a blast radius, Erin Tarn can burn, but if you want to keep her alive, fudge that it's basically magic protection)

"MDC by Location" describes multiple locations. Locations are things. A hand is a thing. A foot is a thing. A searchlight is a thing.

If you're in the area, you get damaged, there isn't any kind of "I'm a thing part of a larger thing so my damage capacity pool is undiminished" thing.

I admit that the RMB thing about the SAMAS getting hit with the missiles is messed. He manages to fire back with his rail gun even though the blast radius inflicted enough to destroy the rail gun. He shot one of the missiles down with a burst while this happened so it was aimed in that direction. I just think KS didn't bother to consider this the same way he didn't consider the penalty to hit fast-moving hover vehicles, because he was doing a simple example.

Tor wrote:I don't see how it plays havoc, we treat these things as unbypassable, same as always. If the GM wants to house-rule an AR for the Millenium Leaf ponchos and Altara swimsuits (akin to Cyber-Armor or NGR's MDC clothing) and make them not protect from missiles, it doesn't seem outrageous at all (Altara they can rely on their force-fields, Juicers can probably jump far enough to get out of a blast radius, Erin Tarn can burn, but if you want to keep her alive, fudge that it's basically magic protection)

Altara don't have force fields. They have talismans of Armor of Ithan. This summons a suit of invisible armor. A suit that has AR 18 in AR worlds but that AR is ignored in MD worlds......
The havoc here is making an arbitrary statement "this armor covers 99% of your body, but only has AR 18 so you die. But this one here covers about 40% but since it doesn't have an AR your fine........

Tor wrote:"MDC by Location" describes multiple locations. Locations are things. A hand is a thing. A foot is a thing. A searchlight is a thing.

If you're in the area, you get damaged, there isn't any kind of "I'm a thing part of a larger thing so my damage capacity pool is undiminished" thing.

This word your using? I do not think it means what you think it means.....

Thing is not a very precise term and it can have a lot of meanings. And since on of those meanings is 'any definable or describable object what so ever' saying that things are things doesn't say anything at all....

Tor wrote:I admit that the RMB thing about the SAMAS getting hit with the missiles is messed. He manages to fire back with his rail gun even though the blast radius inflicted enough to destroy the rail gun. He shot one of the missiles down with a burst while this happened so it was aimed in that direction. I just think KS didn't bother to consider this the same way he didn't consider the penalty to hit fast-moving hover vehicles, because he was doing a simple example.

Or maybe the rules work like the book implies and getting hit by the missile does NOT instantly take out the SAMAS by taking out all its sub-locations.......Because if we go by the RAW then the example isn't messed up in the slightest.......

Tor wrote:I don't see how it plays havoc, we treat these things as unbypassable, same as always. If the GM wants to house-rule an AR for the Millenium Leaf ponchos and Altara swimsuits (akin to Cyber-Armor or NGR's MDC clothing) and make them not protect from missiles, it doesn't seem outrageous at all (Altara they can rely on their force-fields, Juicers can probably jump far enough to get out of a blast radius, Erin Tarn can burn, but if you want to keep her alive, fudge that it's basically magic protection)

"MDC by Location" describes multiple locations. Locations are things. A hand is a thing. A foot is a thing. A searchlight is a thing.

If you're in the area, you get damaged, there isn't any kind of "I'm a thing part of a larger thing so my damage capacity pool is undiminished" thing.

But the hand and foot are part of the same thing, they are components not individual items, so a person is getting hit multiple times (magically the fragments are homing in on every single component that makes up the larger thing, equally unrealistic as just mainbody). By the standards being argued everything in the blast radius with lower DC would be destroyed - every blade of grass, every tree and every branch on each tree etc etc you would have completely razed areas because "Everything" is hit. The idea was (IMHO) that the blast/fragments would hit whats in the blast radius, not that AoE would be an uber-weapon (using a hyper-literal interpretation makes some weapons overly lethal, a burst from a grenade launcher is more deadly than a heavy railgun or plasma cannon etc etc). After one or two combats every person in the party would be needing cyber/bionic hands and feet if not whole arms and legs. More so if the armor is obviously not full coverage (like juicer plate, mystic knight standard suit, Altara swimsuit etc) and hiding behind something (by RAW) won't help.

To be fair, if your cover is MDC, there's no reason it would be penetrated unless it was destroyed. Abstract nonsense capacity.. hrm...Abstract Nonsense Capacity...ANC, that's my new term for MDC...anyway that's just how it works. It's there until zero.

If MDC cover won't protect you, neither would full body armor.

Tor wrote:The rules say everything gets hit. Anything with a separate damage pool is a separate thing, a separate part. No pool is immune.

Pretty sure that the rules never say that.
They just say "everybody and everything" in the blast radius gets hit.
What exactly "everybody and everything" entails is unclear in that passage, but the meaning is clear in other passages.

RUE 362
Getting caught in a blast radius does half damage. Your companion standing 10' away is hit by a high explosive missile with a 30' blast radius. He takes full damage from a direct hit, but your character is also caught in the blast radius. Fortunately, distance buys your character some luck and he takes half the MD since he was not caught directly in the blast.

No mention of "every damage pool that your character has" or "every part of your character's armor" or anything else like that.
Just "he takes half damage."
NO mention of the primary target's other body parts taking any damage other than his main body.

Even on p. 363, where it says "everyone and everything," it then goes on to elaborate:
Note that the concussive force of an explosive blast may not damage or seriously hurt grass, tiny items and other flexible or resilient SDC materials. However, people, animals, buildings, etc., all suffer the blast radius damage.

Again, there is ZERO mention of body parts or anything else taking damage.
What takes damage is the specific target: A person, a building, an animal.
NOT "each part of each person, each part of each building, and each part of each animal."

Edit:
BTW, the bit about the "companion standing 10' away" was taken from RMB 41, in the section on Combat Rules for High-Tech War Machines, so it's not about two unarmored MDC beings with only one damage pool. It's about robots and/or people in body armor.

Moreover, in the sample combat on RMB 43, there is this passage describing what happens when a SAMAS is struck by three short-range missiles:
The damage is 3d4x10 (three fragmentation missiles) inflicting a total of 90 mega-damage points on the SAMAS (that hurts).

IF the blast radius inflicted half damage to every hit location on a target, then that SAMAS would not only take the 90 to his main body, he would take 45 MD to each other hit location, which would destroy his:
-2 shoulder wings
-lower maneuvering jets
-ammo drum

And yet none of that stuff is mentioned, and that SAMAS is still depicted as being able to engage in combat, firing his ammo-drumless gun at the Enforcer on his next attack.

Nox Equites wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Missiles with proper guidance and/or tracking systems wouldn't necessarily have penalties to hit fast moving targets. It's kind of what SAMs and Air to Air missiles do.

With proper ID programming "smart" missiles should be able to make called shots. This might require additional expense to add and update a Friend Foe recognition program to the missile but it could be worth it. Real world ARM are designed to only target active radar/radio and heat-seeker missiles go after heat of exhaust from jet engines. Granted these examples don't directly strike a pinpoint target because just getting some shrapnel into a combat jet can cripple the vehicle.

Right. Either way, hitting the source or radar emissions, the leading edge of a wing, or the heat plume of the engine exhaust....are not the main body as RAW dictates. Laser guided munitions (and even radar guided munitions) should have some sort of called shot option as it is a person who is doing the guiding.

The IR type missiles designed to hit a specific part of the aircraft would get the static bonuses, and have no penalties against fast moving targets.

Mechghost wrote:

Tor wrote:

Mechghost wrote:everything gets hit
by claiming every component of everything gets hit means everything is actually getting hit multiple times

I consider them to be separate things. They have separate damage pools and different repair costs in sourcebook 1.

Different things welded together to make 1 big thing. In many cases these called shot locations are distinct entities, weapons held by a power armor suit in the hand. A big sword or rifle which may not even be connected to the robot or PA.

a soldier gets hit 6 times by an AoE (main body, head, 2 legs and 2 arms) or more if there are listings for feet and hands etc.

Mechghost wrote:non-EBA armor would be instant death in AoE attacks, the suit isn't sealed = the person would be exposed to the AoE.

Wrong, being non-environmental doesn't mean something is exposed.

Unless you can hit it with a called shot (body armor with armor rating) it would not be possible to bypass the armor to harm the person under it.

Does it mean that guys with classic armor ratings would be hit? Yup. Consider the naked cyber-knight misted. Consider anyone in PF or the non-robot non-bionic non-powered armor ratings (even class 4 armor) hit, because those armor ratings are bypassable.

WB5p37, I put on a Standard Vest (ar 10). Why on earth would this let me survive a fragmentation missile? All kinds of parts of me are exposed. Shrapnel flies everywhere. It doesn't just magically hone in on my vest because it wasn't a called shot.

Needing a called shot just means that unless it's called, a missile could only hit the vest (prime target, 100% damage) and that parts not covered by it would be secondary targets (50% damage).

Non-environmental body armor lacking an armor rating, lacking any standards means of bypassing the MDC, would not have this problem. Even if concept art (like juicer armor) leads people to think it should. That's a reason to possibly house-rule giving it an AR like cyber-armor (sometimes it seems like that covers more flesh than juicer armor in pics) in which case the AR would reflect non-protection from missile, but that's house-ruling.

Alrik Vas wrote:Missiles with proper guidance and/or tracking systems wouldn't necessarily have penalties to hit fast moving targets. It's kind of what SAMs and Air to Air missiles do.

I like the idea of some tech being able to offset it. Big diff between eye-balling trying to shoot down a missile with your laser gun and using your PA's targetting system to help fire the laser built into the PA.

Any armor that isn't sealed to provide complete protection is leaving the wearer open to the AoE , a plasma missile will roast someone in their armor by leaking in where the armor isn't sealed, the shockwave from explosives wouldn't be stopped either - everything is hit, it doesn't say everything that requires a called shot or has an AR is hit, by your definition.

Where I think your argument falls apart is with things taking multiple hits -everything in the AoE gets hit - not gets hit multiple times - a soldier gets hit, not a soldier gets hit 6 times, or 8 times if the boots have a damage pool, or 10 times if it also has gloves etc. The blast is not a solid sphere of perfect destruction, it's filled with flying bits of shrapnel that don't home in on every tiny piece of everything in the AoE. If the RAW meant to mean that every location of everything was hit it would have said that, not everything (because a robot is a thing and it's arm is a part of that thing, not another separate entity)

Part of my house rule, which incorporates blast radius hitting multiple locations within its blast radius, involves some GM common sense that needs to be applied. For example, if the blast goes off 5 feet (say 12 ft blast radius) on the left side of the character, only the left arm, left leg, and head would take the splash damage (perhaps even the main body)...assuming all those would be small enough to fit in the blast radius. If the target was a 25 foot bot, the leg would be the only thing in the blast radius, and that would be the only thing to take damage. Likewise, say a character sees the nade and successfully dodges, however his speed attribute is a slow 8 (160 yards per minute; 40 yards per melee round; With 6 APM that means he can move 6.6 yards per attack). The character is still within the blast radius, but is likely moving away from the explosion due to the successful dodge. In that case, Id apply the splash damage only to the legs.

This application of common sense is needed because of the reason you mention and people immediately think of this ball of death. While I enjoy the more realistic element of splash damage hitting everything in the blast radius, I still want to reward both common sense and successful defensive rolls.

eliakon wrote:The issue is two fold here
1 it plays havoc with all the various armors in the game that do not have AR and are not totally enclosing (juicer plate, huntsman, millennium leaf, Altara swimsuits etc) That, by the RAW provide MDC protection......

I know its a pseudo house rule, but I see Rifts AR as a degree of protection rather than one of the three definitions of Palladium AR. As such, it applies to MD as well. The 18 AR armor will be hit for rolls 18 and under. 19 and up, it hits flesh. I think the "AR is NA to MD" rule only applies to the definition of natural AR, like that of a Gromek, where an SDC roll less than the Gromek's AR just bounces off the skin. MD automatically damages those structures, as opposed to armor AR, which is more of a degree of protection.

eliakon wrote:2) It does damage to one thing multiple times.....
If I take damage 10 damage to each arm, and 10 to each leg and 10 to my head and 10 to my body then my armor has taken 60 damage......

I see that no different than under RAW, you take 10 and 8 of your tightly packed buddies taking 5 each. Its what area effect weapons do.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tor wrote:The rules say everything gets hit. Anything with a separate damage pool is a separate thing, a separate part. No pool is immune.

Pretty sure that the rules never say that.
They just say "everybody and everything" in the blast radius gets hit.
What exactly "everybody and everything" entails is unclear in that passage, but the meaning is clear in other passages.

RUE 362
Getting caught in a blast radius does half damage. Your companion standing 10' away is hit by a high explosive missile with a 30' blast radius. He takes full damage from a direct hit, but your character is also caught in the blast radius. Fortunately, distance buys your character some luck and he takes half the MD since he was not caught directly in the blast.

No mention of "every damage pool that your character has" or "every part of your character's armor" or anything else like that.
Just "he takes half damage."
NO mention of the primary target's other body parts taking any damage other than his main body.

Even on p. 363, where it says "everyone and everything," it then goes on to elaborate:
Note that the concussive force of an explosive blast may not damage or seriously hurt grass, tiny items and other flexible or resilient SDC materials. However, people, animals, buildings, etc., all suffer the blast radius damage.

Again, there is ZERO mention of body parts or anything else taking damage.
What takes damage is the specific target: A person, a building, an animal.
NOT "each part of each person, each part of each building, and each part of each animal."

Edit:
BTW, the bit about the "companion standing 10' away" was taken from RMB 41, in the section on Combat Rules for High-Tech War Machines, so it's not about two unarmored MDC beings with only one damage pool. It's about robots and/or people in body armor.

Moreover, in the sample combat on RMB 43, there is this passage describing what happens when a SAMAS is struck by three short-range missiles:
The damage is 3d4x10 (three fragmentation missiles) inflicting a total of 90 mega-damage points on the SAMAS (that hurts).

IF the blast radius inflicted half damage to every hit location on a target, then that SAMAS would not only take the 90 to his main body, he would take 45 MD to each other hit location, which would destroy his:
-2 shoulder wings
-lower maneuvering jets
-ammo drum

And yet none of that stuff is mentioned, and that SAMAS is still depicted as being able to engage in combat, firing his ammo-drumless gun at the Enforcer on his next attack.

Even if the other locations also take damage, the highlighted portion shows that the maximum amount of damage you would take is half the MD of the initial blast. Meaning, when combined, the total damage when added up wouldn't exceed half of the total damage.

Interesting point, Beast!