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Does anyone know where there is a discussion about how the economy of Rifts Earth works that I might read? Specifically, I am looking for anything that indicates how it was set up and how credits actually work between Coalition States, megacorps, and the average person wandering the world.

Thanks!

Read the Collected MOPS. There's a bit in one of the letters pages.

Also, read this.

i'm pretty sure the rifts earth economy *doesn't* work when any close scrutiny is applied.

this is an RPG, not an economics manual.

In short- there's powers, who guarantee they'll accept their sorts of credits. This makes it so that anyone near them, has use of those credits. With said powers having populations in the millions, even double-digit millions, this works. The exception being the black market, but being a merchant concern, their guaranteeing to take them also works.

However, the further you go from a power, the more effort it takes to get to someone who'll definitely-accept them. First you should need more, then they should stop working. And isolated groups- like say Fort Apache- should have little interest in them, so really the further you go from the CS/NG (or whatever local power- the same applies to distance from the NGR. The Sovietski should maybe take Triax products, the Warlords less so, and the less value they have the further one gets from the NGR), the more you should have barter goods to work with.

If it had a realistic economy the CS Quartermasters would absolutely hate the expansion of PA, Bots, Vehicles, and personal gear introduced in War Campaign. The parts stream of all the new equipment is a logistics nightmare. On the same note NG would be hard pressed to create so many new products in such a short time and keep them remotely cheap enough for anyone to afford.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Read the Collected MOPS. There's a bit in one of the letters pages.

Also, read this.

The Link provided has material that is taken from WB14: New West.

The simple fact that you can exchange Rifts Earth credits for Phase World credits on Phase World indicates that no connection to Rifts Earth "Banks" is required.

If you ponder this for a moment, you'll probably come to the conclusion that a purely electronic currency that exists without a central authority is probably unworkable unless there's some way to make the hardware 100% unhackable.

For this reason, I replaced credits with physical currency in my version of the setting.

--flatline

flatline wrote:The simple fact that you can exchange Rifts Earth credits for Phase World credits on Phase World indicates that no connection to Rifts Earth "Banks" is required.

If you ponder this for a moment, you'll probably come to the conclusion that a purely electronic currency that exists without a central authority is probably unworkable unless there's some way to make the hardware 100% unhackable.

For this reason, I replaced credits with physical currency in my version of the setting.

--flatline

I just make it 100% unhackable.

Pretty much "Credits" in Rifts and Phase World are game simplified fiat currencies. They work because its super convenient for them to work. There is no actual rational reason that every nation on Rifts Earth, and the Three Galaxies, and Wormwood, and all sorts of other dimensions all take the same crypto currency.....it defies logic. But it does make the GMs job a whole lot easier to not have to mess around with currencies and stuff. Just like universal e-clips make things easier.

See, Phase World makes sense. It's not The Three Galaxies that can take them, it's a place that specifically caters to dimensional travelers. Ie you sell your credits there and sell it to someone headed to Earth, but it is useless to anyone outside a dimensional trading post.

The credit prices being so standardized is definitely just game logic, and I do feel that as one travels one should semi regularly have to exchange to the local stuff or make do with barter.

flatline wrote:If you ponder this for a moment, you'll probably come to the conclusion that a purely electronic currency that exists without a central authority is probably unworkable unless there's some way to make the hardware 100% unhackable.

For this reason, I replaced credits with physical currency in my version of the setting.

--flatline

Nah, something like that is useless unhackable or not. You refer to something like bitcoins, right?

Unless there is some way to turn something into real value on it's own, which a cryptocurrency absolutely does not have, it's just numbers. A backer, a guaranteer, is needed to have someone that says 'ok, I *will* take these in exchange for these useful item,' which is what gives value.

There is zero inherent value in a cryptography string, it doesn't work without a nation or large powerful organization.

To make things worse, you need a computer to check it, which many lack here.

Q99 wrote:

flatline wrote:If you ponder this for a moment, you'll probably come to the conclusion that a purely electronic currency that exists without a central authority is probably unworkable unless there's some way to make the hardware 100% unhackable.

For this reason, I replaced credits with physical currency in my version of the setting.

--flatline

Nah, something like that is useless unhackable or not. You refer to something like bitcoins, right?

Unless there is some way to turn something into real value on it's own, which a cryptocurrency absolutely does not have, it's just numbers. A backer, a guaranteer, is needed to have someone that says 'ok, I *will* take these in exchange for these useful item,' which is what gives value.

There is zero inherent value in a cryptography string, it doesn't work without a nation or large powerful organization.

To make things worse, you need a computer to check it, which many lack here.

to an interdimensional merchant, rifts earth credits are potentially worth quite a bit. credits are exchanged unfavourably, but things like gems, gold, and advanced tech weaponry exchange at rather favourable rates compared to the credit rate.

there actually is a lot of money to be made in trading PW credits for CS credits, buying up various goods on RE, going back to PW, selling those goods for PW credits, and then doing it all again.

There are Coalition Digital Reapers (canon material in the rifter) to deal with hacking issues.

One of the China books also has a pretty good discussion on credits.

Tor wrote:There are Coalition Digital Reapers (canon material in the rifter) to deal with hacking issues.

Could you give a brief description?

--flatline

Rifter 2 page 27 begins the "Hacking, Cyberjacking and Supernatural Data Theft Across the Megaverse" by Wayne Breaux, described as "Official Rules for Rifts, Heroes, and the Megaverse"

Page 29 mentions that a Reality Enforcement System can look like Chi-Town.

Page 30 mentions it's hard to hack Triax from North America, that you can get hacking gear similar to Aliens Unlimited but that you'd have to visit a lot of specialty shops in the Coalition states to find it.

Page 31 introduces skill penalties for hacking (similar to HU)

Page 32 talks about hand to hand combat in the digital world

Page 33-4 talks about the bonuses that certain powers give to the combat.

Page 35 introduces some new spells related to hacking, which would be available to mages in Rifts. Something the CS would have to contend with.

Pages 36-37 give stats for some gear you can use to help hacking.

Page 38-40 is some Aliens Unlimited Stuff.

Page 41 introduces the Rifts class of D-Bee Computer Empath, presented like an "OCC" but seems RCCish since it's limited to D-Bees, kinda like an enemy class.

Page 42-44 is where the Coalition Digital Reaper OCC is. They are compared to the Atorian (AU) equivalent DSS.

Digital Dead Boys protect Coalition computer networks. They are actually a psionic OCC (this is pre-RUE so it mentions being "technically an RCC"), with ISP and powers detailed at the end. They have a pack of "dog boy" AIs (kinda Psi-Stalkerish) and digital weapon apps they can use against hackers. They also use a headjack to cyberjack for an advantage. They are paid well, get pampered like a Military Specialist.

In spite of being presented as a psionic class, it also mentions under the requirements that there are 'many more' non-psionic ones, and that those ones get a bunch more 'other' (OCC related) skills. All of the Reapers are literate and able to program.

"In a Rifts setting" is also noted under the OCC related skills for (p38) the Atorian Digital Security Specialist (p40) the Struthio Computer Master (p45) the Bionic Hacker (p47) the Cyber Detective (p47) the Traditional Hacker (p51) the Digital God (p52) the Cybermancer. This implies they are all optional playable classes in Rifts too, even though Rifts does not appear primarily in parenthesis next to their names (Cybermancer is Nightbane, Digital God is HU, Traditional Hacker is Beyond the Supernatural, Cyber Detective and Bionic Hacker are HU, Struthio and Atorian are AU)

Shark_Force wrote:i'm pretty sure the rifts earth economy *doesn't* work when any close scrutiny is applied.

this is an RPG, not an economics manual.

And this issue is pretty common across RPG's one of the funniest ones was iron kingdoms where the cost for coal for one of their standard labor units would have cost so much for a days work you could hire 200 workers to do the job of that one unit.

When talking about something like rifts where we know they have some access to advanced nano tech the economy is pretty handwavium as we have no great measuring sticks to match it against.

Maybe it made sense in areas where the coal-mining was prone to deadly cave-ins (quakes) or if these workers were prone to stealing the coal and not reporting it honestly?

kaid wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:i'm pretty sure the rifts earth economy *doesn't* work when any close scrutiny is applied.

this is an RPG, not an economics manual.

And this issue is pretty common across RPG's one of the funniest ones was iron kingdoms where the cost for coal for one of their standard labor units would have cost so much for a days work you could hire 200 workers to do the job of that one unit.

When talking about something like rifts where we know they have some access to advanced nano tech the economy is pretty handwavium as we have no great measuring sticks to match it against.

Unless they have updated things they specify that Rifts Earth doesn't have nanotech available yet as of DB2. Which is silly of course because it is the only acceptable excuse for implausible production figures that are in canon.

Nox Equites wrote:

kaid wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:i'm pretty sure the rifts earth economy *doesn't* work when any close scrutiny is applied.

this is an RPG, not an economics manual.

And this issue is pretty common across RPG's one of the funniest ones was iron kingdoms where the cost for coal for one of their standard labor units would have cost so much for a days work you could hire 200 workers to do the job of that one unit.

When talking about something like rifts where we know they have some access to advanced nano tech the economy is pretty handwavium as we have no great measuring sticks to match it against.

Unless they have updated things they specify that Rifts Earth doesn't have nanotech available yet as of DB2. Which is silly of course because it is the only acceptable excuse for implausible production figures that are in canon.

IRMSS kits uses nanites, or something so close to nanites as to make little difference.
They're introduced in the RMB.
Similar things have been introduced in later books.

Nanotech may still be fairly limited. Nanos don't equal 'can make whatever you want in whatever quality,' it can be 'spend awhile to make some nanos, that get used up in the task at hand and you need to spend awhile making more.'

Q99 wrote:Nanotech may still be fairly limited. Nanos don't equal 'can make whatever you want in whatever quality,' it can be 'spend awhile to make some nanos, that get used up in the task at hand and you need to spend awhile making more.'

Of course.
But IF nanotech of some kind is behind the Universal Credit technology, it may well be something that the CS swiped (like much of their other technology) from Golden Age leftovers.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Of course.
But IF nanotech of some kind is behind the Universal Credit technology, it may well be something that the CS swiped (like much of their other technology) from Golden Age leftovers.

A nanotech moneymaker to make uncounterfitable currency...?

Possible, but I don't think something of that level would be needed. And probably more valuable still to study than to use.

Q99 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Of course.
But IF nanotech of some kind is behind the Universal Credit technology, it may well be something that the CS swiped (like much of their other technology) from Golden Age leftovers.

A nanotech moneymaker to make uncounterfitable currency...?

Sure. Could have originally been how credit cards worked in the Golden Age, with minor adjustment. Or maybe they raided the remnants of The US Mint and that's what the Golden Age was using for currency.

Possible, but I don't think something of that level would be needed. And probably more valuable still to study than to use.

I'd think that for a budding nation, having an uncounterfeitable currency would be quite important, although I'd assume that they study all the GA tech they can get.

I don't think it requires nanotech to make one uncounterfitable, especially given how few high-tech groups are out there,

Q99 wrote:I don't think it requires nanotech to make one uncounterfitable, especially given how few high-tech groups are out there,

It's not something that I really worry about.
If anybody ever tried to counterfeit it, I'd just say "No." And that's that.

Shark_Force wrote:i'm pretty sure the rifts earth economy *doesn't* work when any close scrutiny is applied.

this is an RPG, not an economics manual.

I'm pretty sure the Rifts Earth economy doesn't work even when you avoid close scrutiny like the plague and try to only glance sidelong at it while you're squinting with dark glasses on.

It's not just that Rifts is an RPG setting, it's that Rifts is an over the top setting that puts style (for certain very loose definitions of "style" that allow robotic dragons and ninja cyborgs and mecha shaped like giant skulls to be considered stylish) ahead of substance, and where the only way to make it work is to relentlessly have cool things happen so that everything's too awesome for anyone to slow down and ask how the hell any of it actually works.

There are RPGs where "how does the economy work?" is a question that makes sense. There are even RPGs where "how does the economy work?" is a question that'll help you understand some pretty essential aspects of the setting, even if you can't necessarily come up with an answer that works (Eclipse Phase springs to mind). But Rifts isn't one of those games. Rifts is a game where "how does the economy work?" is a sign that your players are spending too much time thinking and not enough time punching out dragons with their giant robots.

I treat them as labelled, pre-paid credit cards. Value is never actually taken off the cards until they are brought to an appropriate bank, at which point the cards are also disposed of. So someone with 1,000 credits might have one card worth that amount, or 5 200 credit cards, or any combination as makes sense. When you trade these credits for services your just turning over the card as if it were itself money. If you get change it's just smaller cards.

Envisioning it this way has allowed the system to make sense to me.

I think what cost numbers are given are mostly meant to apply loosely to the "domain of man," especially the 'Burbs and northern Michigan. In most other places, the numbers have to be weird, assuming anything is even available to be sold. Or more often, the numbers don't even exist, cause credits are worthless.

The CS and other kingdoms try to create something of a "modern economy," but most places rely on barter. A small wilderness village isn't gonna care about the credits you give it to recharge your eclips. They need that power for their own eclips, or to operate their farm or mine or whatever. They have to self sustain, or have very limited trade with neighbors. Credits are worthless (unless there's a black market outpost or something). Maybe the local inn deals in credits just cause travelers go through a lot. Maybe the village can give some services away for free cause it's not a big deal and it's better to help well equipped travelers than give them trouble.

If the players have nothing of value/needed to trade, they should have to wash dishes, or chop wood, or the some more exciting activity in order to be able to "purchase" what they want.

Or, in the alternative, "credits" can be a way to avoid playing out what could be the tedious chore of finding a way to pay for things.

I always looked at the "credit" as electronic currency and debit cards as mentioned in the "link" however I considered that there were several versions floating around.
what I am going to call cred sticks these are equivalent to modern debit and or prepaid cash cards. depending on who you are working with, they typically have an advanced system that does one of 2 things, it either adjusts the "claimed balance" on the card along with periodic sync updates to the banking system (uses advanced anti-tamper algorithms) to reduce fraud. or it uses the less secure, but still pretty secure encryption code to determine the "customers" account number and submits a transaction request to the servicing bank/institution. (like modern credit/debit cards)

the other items would be as mentioned electronic "credit coins" they use very difficult to crack security codes to prevent changing them but the "coin" would have a predetermined number of credits encoded on it such as 1, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 5000, 10,000, 50,000, 100k, 500k, 1 million, etc. and then these things are exchanged like cash or IOU's because they are essentially payable to the bearer upon request...

obviously the governments prefer the first kind as it gives them more control, whereas more suspicious and or paranoid people (or criminals) prefer the second as they are more or less untraceable.

Rallan wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:i'm pretty sure the rifts earth economy *doesn't* work when any close scrutiny is applied.

this is an RPG, not an economics manual.

I'm pretty sure the Rifts Earth economy doesn't work even when you avoid close scrutiny like the plague and try to only glance sidelong at it while you're squinting with dark glasses on.

It's not just that Rifts is an RPG setting, it's that Rifts is an over the top setting that puts style (for certain very loose definitions of "style" that allow robotic dragons and ninja cyborgs and mecha shaped like giant skulls to be considered stylish) ahead of substance, and where the only way to make it work is to relentlessly have cool things happen so that everything's too awesome for anyone to slow down and ask how the hell any of it actually works.

There are RPGs where "how does the economy work?" is a question that makes sense. There are even RPGs where "how does the economy work?" is a question that'll help you understand some pretty essential aspects of the setting, even if you can't necessarily come up with an answer that works (Eclipse Phase springs to mind). But Rifts isn't one of those games. Rifts is a game where "how does the economy work?" is a sign that your players are spending too much time thinking and not enough time punching out dragons with their giant robots.

^this^
I have usually basically said "We will just go along with the credit system as written because its convenient to do so and allows us to concentrate on other stuff. But if you guys try and game the system then I will replace it with a full currency system"

Glistam wrote:I treat them as labelled, pre-paid credit cards. Value is never actually taken off the cards until they are brought to an appropriate bank, at which point the cards are also disposed of. So someone with 1,000 credits might have one card worth that amount, or 5 200 credit cards, or any combination as makes sense. When you trade these credits for services your just turning over the card as if it were itself money. If you get change it's just smaller cards.

Envisioning it this way has allowed the system to make sense to me.

This pretty much how I do it as well. (I use memory sticks of differing sizes to represent differing denominations).