Attacks per Melee Revision Idea

[Alrik Vas]

Hit on this idea a bit ago, want to throw it by you guys.

Limit everyone to 5 turns. Any attacks per melee beyond that let you immediately do things like aim, make a called shot, power punch or even dodge without losing your next action, so long as you have spare actions left. Limit of 1 spare action a turn.

What particulars do you think need to be worked out before I move on to testing?

[Lori]

Rolling a Natural 20 (instead of damage etc) awards the player an additional action to distribute within the round.
Rolling a Natural 1 removes an action, within the round.

[eliakon]

Well for starters.....
Your going to see a LOT more called shots, aimed shots, power blows (and if you allow multiple stacking then aimed, called, power blows......). If I suddenly can make them in one action (and thus not worry about being interrupted, or getting counter attacked or any of the other bother of extended actions)
8eowulf in his 'Hunt' game uses a similar system. He has 5 'phases' in which your actions are evenly divided. If you have more than one action in a phase then you can do an extended action then. The result has been an uptick in the number of called shots, dodges, and high level spells. This works fairly well for higher powered games, and especially helps make 'speedsters' and 'super heroes' stand out from normal and scrubs. (when you have someone making every shot be a called shot to the head, or hand, or eye.......). But if you don't want the larger power discrepancy between speedsters/high level characters and more normal ones.......

[Alrik Vas]

It's limited to 1 spare action. The idea is that while a character with 10 by normal rules still only "attacks" 5 times a round, they may not lose actions to dodging, etc.

It isn't like I'd let people make 3 actual attacks per turn, even if they had 15 APM.

The N20 thing is interesting, ideas like those are cool.

[eliakon]

Ouch. That is going to make a lot of pilots a LOT weaker......Since they suddenly lose one of the biggest power boosts of Power Armor and Robot Vehicles over normal people.....that of the extra attacks that you get from the armor. It also raises a question of what you are going to do with auto-dodgers? A typical juicer for instance is going to have 7 or 8 apm or so....if they can only use 5 of them to attack, and 1 of them to modify one of the attacks.....what do they do with the others?

[Killer Cyborg]

I generally would just let double-action stuff come off the tail end.

[Alrik Vas]

KC, it works kind of like that, but I'm just trying to reorganize the round, in a way. Really what I'd like to do is get rounds over with faster and I think this is a decent step in the right direction.

Eliakon, the extra actions can still be used for a lot of non-attack actions. Standing up, opening doors, swapping weapons and the like. I might set exception for certain things like automatic dodge. It's something to consider when pushing into play testing.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why do you want to get the rounds over faster?

[Alrik Vas]

Mostly do that actions which extend over the course of several melees resolve in a timely fashion. Things like skills, movement, powering up gear like vehicles and the like.

[say652]

???
I find the number of attacks within FIFTEEN WHOLE SECONDS to be ridiculously low.

Fifteen seconds is like four thousand heartbeats in combat. Way way way more time than you think.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, I just don't look at a single attack as the same thing most others do. A "power punch" could be a round of swift blows over the course of 1 or 2 seconds. /shrug

Though I'm pondering doing some crazy stuff with the combat system of this game, just not sure how crazy yet.

I tried giving characters multiple attacks when they had waaaaay higher APM, and instead of killing everything at the end of the round, they were just killing it all at the beginning. Trying to come up with a reasonable balance.

[say652]

The combos and combination moves you apply in real life are wonky or not allowed in the game.

Example wrist lock, foot sweep, elbow lock and knee to the ribs.
Game wise thats 15 seconds.
Irl its less than 2. Lol.
Lesson being when a cop asks if your drinking never ever ever say "You buying?"

[Alrik Vas]

You can combo. I think I'll allow certain things, but have a continuously growing penalty, along with taking away auto success on a N20 when you try it.

I'll see how it works.

[Dog_O_War]

Hit on this idea a bit ago, want to throw it by you guys.

Limit everyone to 5 turns. Any attacks per melee beyond that let you immediately do things like aim, make a called shot, power punch or even dodge without losing your next action, so long as you have spare actions left. Limit of 1 spare action a turn.

What particulars do you think need to be worked out before I move on to testing?

There is one thing in particular you should address;

Why?

I mean, what is your end-game here? All you're doing is penalizing fast people for being fast, because there comes a point in time when all they're doing is losing out on the advantages they once had.

If you're doing this for the sake of speed, give people less actions, not the same amount (a proportionately shorter round is usually coupled with this). If you're doing this on the objective of fairness, how is this method fair for people with lots of attacks? How is it fair for people with low numbers of attacks?

So I'm just wondering; why?

Also; no called, aimed shots?

[Fell]

The only thing I've changed is I have 3 rounds in a melee. Melee is still 15 seconds. I also let Casters do 3 total lower level spells in a melee. Only roll for initiative at start of each melee. So if you are a juicer and have 6 attacks per melee thats (2,2,2) actions each round. Speeds things up a lot. Casters are doing spells as (1,1,1). I have a card holder which I put Initiative cards in so everyone can see who's up next. Use one card labeled:Bad Guys (all bad guys go on same init roll.

Reason I did this is I have 10, yes 10, players in my group. Gives people a shorter wait time for their character to do something.

[Dog_O_War]

Reason I did this is I have 10, yes 10, players in my group. Gives people a shorter wait time for their character to do something.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense under the normal rules.

When I first started role-playing, my group played a ton of Deadlands: Hell on Earth, and we had 10 players.

In that system, the round was only 5 seconds, and players under normal circumstances had a maximum of 5 actions. And it still felt like an eternity because of how the action system plays out.

I mention this because unlike Deadlands, Palladium games follow a round-robin style of play, so regardless of how many players there are, people still queue up for their actions, and the only real disparity is at the bottom of the round when the guy with 8 attacks is doing 3 of them at the end, so he takes a proportionately larger chunk of the combat round.

How are you running it where this is not simply the exact same situation, just in smaller bites?

[Damian Magecraft]

Reason I did this is I have 10, yes 10, players in my group. Gives people a shorter wait time for their character to do something.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense under the normal rules.

When I first started role-playing, my group played a ton of Deadlands: Hell on Earth, and we had 10 players.

In that system, the round was only 5 seconds, and players under normal circumstances had a maximum of 5 actions. And it still felt like an eternity because of how the action system plays out.

I mention this because unlike Deadlands, Palladium games follow a round-robin style of play, so regardless of how many players there are, people still queue up for their actions, and the only real disparity is at the bottom of the round when the guy with 8 attacks is doing 3 of them at the end, so he takes a proportionately larger chunk of the combat round.

How are you running it where this is not simply the exact same situation, just in smaller bites?

It is called perception.

The reality: it takes no more or less time with the phase method.
The perception: because the "extra" actions are interspersed through out the 15 second melee no one feels left out.

[Dog_O_War]

It is called perception.

The reality: it takes no more or less time with the phase method.
The perception: because the "extra" actions are interspersed through out the 15 second melee no one feels left out.

That doesn't really follow.

In the typical round-robin, you only have one instance of having to wait for players with extra attacks.

In a 5 second round, a guy with 4 attacks, using Fell's mentioned divide (2/1/1) is now experiencing two instances of having to wait for someone with just 6 attacks (2/2/2).

Under the standard round-robin, he'd only have to wait once. And if you made a defence that ate up an action during those rounds, it can feel like you're waiting forever.

That's why I asked him what he's doing differently within the round, that he did not describe.

[Fell]

Combat rules for Our Games.

Have been working sorry you had to wait for a response ......

Here's (below) the basic rules I send out for my players.

The link is to the Playing Card Holder and Init Cards I use.
http://dan-frederick.deviantart.com/art/Example-549989683

The short answer is NO system is perfect. NO system can be REAL. IRL I can unload a full mag of 11 rounds out of my .40 pistol in under 4 seconds (And yes hit the center of the target with each round heh). How does that translate to an RPG?

If you read the whole post keep in mind I have changed rules to fit our style of playing.

In essence combat flows faster in general. Say you are shooting a gun, it's your turn to act, you say I'm shooting twice with my 2 actions. Ok roll a D20 to strike twice. Roll damage twice. Next character.

Maybe your method works fine. It was too slow for us.

The only time things get wonky is if you have 2 actions and you decide you are running then shooting. Sometimes I have to fudge stuff around. Just cutting out extra Init rolls makes it faster. I Love the Story involved but I also Like our combat to be fast and wild, crazy and dangerous.

As it turns out, it works well for us. That's what I care about.... Works smoothly for us. You don't agree, cool and have fun mate. The post topic was talking about revisions to attacks per melee, just tossing out my version, you don't have to use it. Also not saying your way is wrong.


Rifts & Chaos Earth Combat System & Rules

Combat:
• Declare Action*
• Roll Initiative (roll a d20)
• Take Action: Strike - Parry - Dodge - Cast - Psi Power - Move (roll a d20)


A Melee/Round:

A melee is 15 seconds.

Rounds are 5 seconds.

(So there are 3 rounds in a Melee)

Most characters have 4 to 7 attacks per melee.
Duration is most often measured in melees. Such as a spell might last X amount of melees per level of caster. More on attacks per melee and rounds below.


Dodging & Parrying:

Characters can give up an action to dodge or quite a spell to dodge.

Auto Dodge doesn't require giving up an action. There is a maximum to Auto Dodge. A character with Auto Dodge can dodge three times, beyond that requires giving up actions. * Juicer can Auto Dodge the number of attacks per melee they have with minimum of 3, round up, if your Juicer has 7 or 8 attacks then Auto Dodge is eight per melee.

Parry (most often this is only hand to hand or weapons such as swords) is a free action. Again max parry in a round is three. One does not parry bullets or energy blasts.


Called Shot to Small or Far Away Targets:

Aiming for a small target or far away target such as shooting a button long distance etc. requires a called shot. Called Shot uses whole round (if you attack 2 times per round, both attacks are used to do a Called Shot). If Sniper Skill is known by character it can be used when using a rifle (provides a plus 1 to strike, only with rifles). Extremely difficult shots fail on a roll of 10 or less. Called Shot using a pistol fails on a roll of a natural 12 or less. Rolls between 4 and 10 MAY still strike main body of your victim, GM discretion. Note that successful strike could still be dodged if target is alive and succeeds at dodge roll. Head Shots are considered Called Shots at any distance.


Natural 20 Rules:

Natural 20 to Strike does double damage.
Natural 20 to Dodge is a Auto Dodge and does not use up an action.


Natural 1-4 Rules:

Natural 1-4 always misses or fails.
Natural 1 when Striking MAY cause an adverse action to occur such as hitting own party or causing friendly fire. GM discretion, could just be you just miss, could be you drop your weapon, could be you sneeze and shoot your friend.


Spells:

Level 1-7 use whole 5 second round, level 8-10 use two rounds or 10 seconds and 11-15 uses three rounds or 15 seconds unless spell states otherwise and obviously ritual spells take much longer. GM discretion.

Say you Know the spell: Fire Ball, it's a level 5 spell, it takes 10 PPE to cast it, you as a Mage can fire off the spell three times in a Melee (15 seconds, once per round) using up 30 PPE from your personal reserve, each Fire Ball does 3d6 MD, if all three strike that's 3d6x3 MD (that's a possible 54 MD in 15 seconds!)

Players should track their own PPE uses please.

Most moderate level Mages have around 100 + PPE per level. Increases with leveling.

Regeneration of PPE was, 5 per hour of sleep or rest and 10 per hour of meditation. NOW, regeneration is 10 per hour of rest, 20 per hour of meditation, or full recharge of all PPE after 8 hours of sleep.


Psionic Powers:

Psionic powers can be used faster than magic in many cases. So if you have 5 attacks per melee you can "cast" 5 psi powers a Melee, equal to the amount of attacks per round you have. Some psi powers will vary in time depending on the power. (In regard to psi sword, you can cast it and use it in same action, Cyber Knight OCC has some additional information on their psi sword, no one is currently playing a Cyber Knight so it can wait).

Players should track their own ISP uses please.

Regeneration of ISP was 2-12 per hour depending on OCC. NOW, Minor Psionic regenerates 6 per hour. Major Psionic regenerates 12 per hour. Master Psionic regenerates 20 per hour. If Psionic character sleeps 8+ hours full regeneration of ISP.


Our game:

As combat is about to occur I will go around the table asking each of you, "What are you going to do?" Afterwards I'll have everyone roll a d20 for initiative. Based on highest to lowest roll you'll take your action(s). If needed the next melee will repeat - Declare - Roll - Take. *On occasion it won't be necessary to declare action, say if in a long combat sequence and it's obvious.

Also; I will use a playing card holder to place Initiative Cards into, you will be able to see who's turn it is this way.


Attacks per Melee:

A Round is 5 seconds.

A Melee is 15 seconds.

At the beginning of melee, before first round, initiative is rolled. Initiative is rolled at start of each melee, or again after the three rounds.

Conversion chart from attacks per melee to attacks to round is as follows:

4 attacks per melee is: 2-1-1.

5 attacks per melee is: 2-2-1.

6 attacks per melee is: 2-2-2.

7 attacks per melee is: 3-2-2.

8 attacks per melee is: 3-3-2.

No matter how many attacks per round you have see above spell info for casting times. So you may have 5 attacks per melee but you're only going to be able to cast 3 lower level spells per melee. One spell per round.

Non Mage characters might be able to do more actions than a Mage casting spells in a Melee, but spells should be able to level the playing field by being more powerful or useful than only being able to shoot a gun or swing a sword.

These rules are mine, similar to the book, but adapted for our game.

Dan

[Damian Magecraft]

It is called perception.

The reality: it takes no more or less time with the phase method.
The perception: because the "extra" actions are interspersed through out the 15 second melee no one feels left out.

That doesn't really follow.

In the typical round-robin, you only have one instance of having to wait for players with extra attacks.

In a 5 second round, a guy with 4 attacks, using Fell's mentioned divide (2/1/1) is now experiencing two instances of having to wait for someone with just 6 attacks (2/2/2).

Under the standard round-robin, he'd only have to wait once. And if you made a defence that ate up an action during those rounds, it can feel like you're waiting forever.

That's why I asked him what he's doing differently within the round, that he did not describe.

It has to do with how we as people perceive time.

For this example let us assume a group of 6 combatants.
Each has -
A: 4apm, B: 5apm, C: 6apm, D: 7apm, E: 8apm, F: 9apm
We shall also assume an average of 30 seconds per turn (yes, the reality is probably longer... just go with it).
now in the course of a single melee A will spend 7.5 minutes waiting for the others to finish while being unable to interact.
In the standard method that is spent in one solid chunk of 7.5
In a phased method that would be broken up into 3 segments of 1.5/3.5/2.5
In A's perception The standard method will appear to take longer.

[Alrik Vas]

Dog, the question of Why? is easily answered.

Because if i turn the round into 5, 3 second segments, it will go faster and more orderly and there will be less time at the end of the 15 second melee where people sit about waiting for others with more attacks to do their thing.

It works.

[Dog_O_War]

Dog, the question of Why? is easily answered.

Because if i turn the round into 5, 3 second segments, it will go faster and more orderly and there will be less time at the end of the 15 second melee where people sit about waiting for others with more attacks to do their thing.

It works.

Yeah, but why are you penalizing fast characters?

And also, no aimed, called shots under your method?

[FluidicAztec]

Combat rules for Our Games.

The link is to the Playing Card Holder and Init Cards I use.
http://dan-frederick.deviantart.com/art/Example-549989683

Dan

Your cards are pretty cool. Care to share the printing secret? It looks like you keep cards on each character for quick reference.

[Fell]

Combat rules for Our Games.

The link is to the Playing Card Holder and Init Cards I use.
http://dan-frederick.deviantart.com/art/Example-549989683

Dan

Your cards are pretty cool. Care to share the printing secret? It looks like you keep cards on each character for quick reference.

Thanks

I do keep stats on them, the side facing me, so I can keep track of # of attacks each person has and their Armor damage; like to know when they are close to death.

The Initiative Card Holder's I got on eBay for around ten dollars total. (Search: Playing Card Holder/Rack).

The Cards are blank Playing Cards I got at Amazon for ten dollars. (Search: 200 Blank Cards).

The Printed portion was Sticker Paper I got at Walmart. Ten dollars at most I think. It's made by Avery. I think it was shipping labels.

The Avery Label Paper has a template number to go online and design the print, then printed in my low bid old home printer.

((((( EDIT: LABELS are at Amazon too for $5.... 100 Avery White Mailing Labels 2 x 4" 18163 size )))))

I like using the Card Holders. I made AD&D1E cards too for my D&D GM, he just lays them out on the table with no holder.

[ShadowLogan]

Hit on this idea a bit ago, want to throw it by you guys.

Limit everyone to 5 turns. Any attacks per melee beyond that let you immediately do things like aim, make a called shot, power punch or even dodge without losing your next action, so long as you have spare actions left. Limit of 1 spare action a turn.

What particulars do you think need to be worked out before I move on to testing?

I am unclear here. How would you determine the extra attacks per melee round? And what do you mean by limit 1 spare action a turn?

The first question I have I'm guesing that would be calculated by the normal means, but you subtract 5 (or what ever the Everyone to # turns you decide) to account for that or not is where I am unclear on? So a Juicer with 7APM in RAW would have 5 attacks PLUS 2 or 7 to spend on actions like dodging or aim/call shots as an example.

The second question I am unclear on as well since some actions can use up 3 "APM" RAW, so you would have to revise them (at least by RUE-era rules, older rules not so much an issue). Or do you mean you can only spend APMs in one method per turn? ie I can spend the eAPMs to make a called aimed shot Or dodge during my action, but I can't do both.

[Alrik Vas]

You have 7 APM by RAW we'll say.

So you get to act 1 time per turn inside the 5 part melee.

Since you have 2 extra actions, you can choose to either A: save them for dodges as needed, B: choose an action during the melee to turn into called shot, aim or cast a 6-10 spell now, etc. You could also choose to use it for parry if you did a paired weapons attack...or to perform a power punch immediately.

That's the general idea behind it.

[Alrik Vas]

I'd let actions that take 3 APM happen immediately if the character has 11 or more APM. Otherwise the action carries over as normal.