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As we all know, the SAMAS was originally a US suit, and was partnered with the Chromium Guardsmen/Glitterboys a lot.


Chaos Earth shows up and we see these Silver Eagle SAMAS- noted to be NEMA exclusive, and definitely the 'next generation' so to speak.


Does that suggest the actual external military of the US still used the basic SAMAS? It'd be interesting politically if NEMA actually got first dibs on the new models, but it makes sense.


We know from other material that there were still basic SAMAS factories in operation- the one Fort Apache has, and Area 51. Additionally, there was a partnership with Japan, who had their own, slightly better armed variant, and Area 51 was working on new variants.


From this, I'd gather that the SAMAS was basically the F-14 'workhorse,' still in use and still getting upgrades, where the Silver Eagle was the F-22 of it's day. Brand new, very flashy, and not yet made in such quantities so kept with one branch while the army, navy, and marines still used the SAMAS.

Additionally, like the Glitterboy, the SAMAS was an export model to an extent- some of the North American Alliance's allies would get it (well, just Japan), and it was possible for others to example (the Russians were noted to have perhaps used some SAMAS design principles in some of their cyborg designs, notably the Tempest, or more likely the Tempest's predecssor), while the Silver Eagle, the top of the top, was kept close to the chest where no-one could study or learn it's secrets.


So from this, I'd gather that the basic SAMAS, like the GB, was the US's prior generation suit, very impressive for it's role, but the new generation was coming along in two types. Both the addition of new upgraded variants to keep the old model in service, and a new heavier next-gen model in the Silver Eagle.



Then way down the road, the Coalition's SAMASes get a similar evolution, getting upgrades/variants like the Striker and V-SAMAS, as well as the next gen/heavier model in the Super-SAMAS (and similarly the Republican's Golden Eagle).



This sound about right?

Q99 wrote:As we all know, the SAMAS was originally a US suit, and was partnered with the Chromium Guardsmen/Glitterboys a lot.

Actually, it was never US exclusive. It was made in conjunction with Canada--part of the NEMA alliance. I don't think it was a US-Only show.

Chaos Earth shows up and we see these Silver Eagle SAMAS- noted to be NEMA exclusive, and definitely the 'next generation' so to speak.


Does that suggest the actual external military of the US still used the basic SAMAS? It'd be interesting politically if NEMA actually got first dibs on the new models, but it makes sense.

I think so, it'd make sense. it was the NEMA alliance itself that developed the SAMAS, not the US exclusively

We know from other material that there were still basic SAMAS factories in operation- the one Fort Apache has, and Area 51. Additionally, there was a partnership with Japan, who had their own, slightly better armed variant, and Area 51 was working on new variants.


From this, I'd gather that the SAMAS was basically the F-14 'workhorse,' still in use and still getting upgrades, where the Silver Eagle was the F-22 of it's day. Brand new, very flashy, and not yet made in such quantities so kept with one branch while the army, navy, and marines still used the SAMAS.

That's pretty much it. the basic, no-frills RMB Samas suit is a Workhorse, and a darn good one. it's a cheep, effective way to give an infantry squad unparelleled battlefeild mobility combined with a great deal of toughness. if it seems obsolecent now, it's only after a full Century of R&D by the CS and neighboring technological powers like northern gun have finnally unveiled suits that are simply superior in every way. and when you consider the 200 year gap between the fall of civilization and the releasing of the Super SAMAS and Smiling Jack SAMAS, it's even more impressive. very few military innovations stay in constant battlefeild use for 300 years.

Additionally, like the Glitterboy, the SAMAS was an export model to an extent- some of the North American Alliance's allies would get it (well, just Japan), and it was possible for others to example (the Russians were noted to have perhaps used some SAMAS design principles in some of their cyborg designs, notably the Tempest, or more likely the Tempest's predecssor), while the Silver Eagle, the top of the top, was kept close to the chest where no-one could study or learn it's secrets.

They were also sold to that said South American nation who accidentally razed a city with them because they didn't grasp yet that MDC means a boom gun will not only destroy the SDC vehicle in front of it but every SDC building behind it for the full 2 mile range, yes. so if even backwards third world nations can buy them, it's safe to say it's an export model.

So from this, I'd gather that the basic SAMAS, like the GB, was the US's prior generation suit, very impressive for it's role, but the new generation was coming along in two types. Both the addition of new upgraded variants to keep the old model in service, and a new heavier next-gen model in the Silver Eagle.



Then way down the road, the Coalition's SAMASes get a similar evolution, getting upgrades/variants like the Striker and V-SAMAS, as well as the next gen/heavier model in the Super-SAMAS (and similarly the Republican's Golden Eagle).



This sound about right?

Yup!

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Actually, it was never US exclusive. It was made in conjunction with Canada--part of the NEMA alliance. I don't think it was a US-Only show.

Oops, right Though it did get a US designation, so they were likely the primary partners.

I think so, it'd make sense. it was the NEMA alliance itself that developed the SAMAS, not the US exclusively

I do wonder if the military branches may have a little tensions with NEMA, causing NEMA to be reluctant to share at first. Inter-branch rivalry is a silly yet all too real thing in a lot of militaries.

That's pretty much it. the basic, no-frills RMB Samas suit is a Workhorse, and a darn good one. it's a cheep, effective way to give an infantry squad unparelleled battlefeild mobility combined with a great deal of toughness. if it seems obsolecent now, it's only after a full Century of R&D by the CS and neighboring technological powers like northern gun have finnally unveiled suits that are simply superior in every way. and when you consider the 200 year gap between the fall of civilization and the releasing of the Super SAMAS and Smiling Jack SAMAS, it's even more impressive. very few military innovations stay in constant battlefeild use for 300 years.

Right, it's exceedingly well designed and flexible, allowing for rapid deployment of forces that makes it more strategically useful than a number of heavier suits.

On Northern Gun suits, I'll note their fliers are lighter armored, and the Blue Hawk and Ironwing slight slower. Though they have their own advantages- Blue Hawk aquatic, Ironwing better in close, Red Hawk has the turbo boost, they're basically more specialized and approximately peers. And there's indication NG got some of the SAMAS's technical info

Only the Coalition itself, and Free Quebec, have managed the expertise and long experience to flat-out improve it.

They were also sold to that said South American nation who accidentally razed a city with them because they didn't grasp yet that MDC means a boom gun will not only destroy the SDC vehicle in front of it but every SDC building behind it for the full 2 mile range, yes. so if even backwards third world nations can buy them, it's safe to say it's an export model.

Interestingly, the GB was exchanged enough with some South American allies for some GB production factories to exist down there (presumably in larger countries rather than the ones who clashed... hm, considering it's mostly the Silver River Republics who have them, that'd be Argentina, and maybe Chile, who bought the tech), while the SAMAS remained on something of a shorter leash and if any SAMAS were sold in that continent at one point, they're long gone now.

Yup!

Japan didn't 'get' them, it was just a Japanese company that won a R&D contract to upgrade them. After the city was rifted back to earth they started mass producing them.
I'd say the SAMAS was the f-18 Hornet and the Silver Eagle SAMAS is the F-18 Super Hornet (same 'airframe', upgraded guts).
And I do believe it was Glitterboys that said SA country got from the US and caused that whole incident with. I don't think the SAMAS (or variants) were going to be traded/sold to anyone else yet, what I got was that the SAMAS was a NEMA-only piece of tech.
I may be mistaken with that last one (soooo many books, soooo much made-up info to remember lol) so I'll go do some reading and see what I can find.

1stTimeGM wrote:Japan didn't 'get' them, it was just a Japanese company that won a R&D contract to upgrade them. After the city was rifted back to earth they started mass producing them.

Sure, but that kind of contract is only done with a trusted ally who you don't mind having access to the design and tech. Armatech was close with the Japanese government, and Armatech now had the know-how to make high quality flying power armor.

I'd say the SAMAS was the f-18 Hornet and the Silver Eagle SAMAS is the F-18 Super Hornet (same 'airframe', upgraded guts).

I'd say the Silver Eagle's changes are quite significant, being made of an entirely different armor, normally coming with secondary weapons the SAMAS doesn't (place to hook neural mace and grenades) in exchange for losing the integrated mini-missile launcher, and slightly slower. While pretty similar, there's some notable changes, the armor most of all, since that extends to it's shape and form.

And I do believe it was Glitterboys that said SA country got from the US and caused that whole incident with. I don't think the SAMAS (or variants) were going to be traded/sold to anyone else yet, what I got was that the SAMAS was a NEMA-only piece of tech.

That's what I mean when I say SAMAS was on a shorter leash. They did work with foreign contractors on it, but whereas there's at least two, possibly a handful of non-NEMA countries that can make Glitterboys (depending on how many South American countries had it), there's only one known foreign company that does SAMAS, Japan, and they were almost certainly the only one.

And even they didn't get the Silver Eagle.

That makes sense. Especially since the Republic is able to mass produce them.

I don't think a retooling of armaments and a different armor alloy necessitates a different air frame. Although, I guess it may depend if it's a power armor vs a plane or helicopter... We may have to agree to disagree on this relatively minor point.
I wonder if it was the chromium armor that was restricted to NEMA only? Maybe after that SA incident Canada and Mexico pressured the US to restrict that material to NA only?

Otherwise I do think we're on the same page with this, especially after I went searching through my books.

It's kinda long, so I put it in a spoiler tag. What I could find I've listed here. If you know where other little bits are lurking please let me know. I only have the first 20 Rifters and I don't have either NG books yet, so if there is anything printed in newer ones pardon my ignorance.

1stTimeGM wrote:I don't think a retooling of armaments and a different armor alloy necessitates a different air frame. Although, I guess it may depend if it's a power armor vs a plane or helicopter... We may have to agree to disagree on this relatively minor point.

I'm thinking, different materials have different tolerances. They can shave off some here, some there, change the shape to make best use of the protection. Externally, the suits do have some molding difference too, but generally, material changes are the ones most likely to involve physical changes.

I wonder if it was the chromium armor that was restricted to NEMA only? Maybe after that SA incident Canada and Mexico pressured the US to restrict that material to NA only?

The SA incident was only slightly before the cataclysm, I doubt there was enough lead time.

According to Triax 2, the KLS Corporation, US based but also responsible for some of the space colonies, were the ones who invented the process, in the 2060s. And it's not completely restricted- modern South America, and ArmaTech in Japan, make GBs themselves, after all. But that was likely some years after the GB first appeared.

The countries in NEMA just seemed to be the best at it, due to longest experience. The next time someone would successfully make a flying chromium suit is modern Triax (Hell Angel, Triax 2), with aid of all of Free Quebec's later work on the GB as well, and there a much heavier unit.

This is something like a timeline. No real dates are given for everything, so they will probably not be in order, if an order could ever be figured out. I also included the Triax SAMAS classed suits. Not sure if they're considered SAMs though.

I would say.... they have similarity in role, but have some notable design difference, 'hanging' off the wings rather than having them at shoulder level for example, to no particular difference in effect, says to me convergent evolution rather than lifted design since there's not much point in altering something basic like that.

Notably, you start to see shoulder-wing Triax suits, the War Eagle, Predator-II Hell Angel and Butterfly, after CS/FQ contact.

Similarly the Chinese Red Falcon, another flying one, was almost certainly made in response to, but independently from, SAMAS (and had a laser-based main weapon- which suggests a motivation for all the glitterness!).

'Strategic Armor Military Assault Suit' seems to be a designation used by both Germany and the US, but as the inclusion of the designation on the Ulti-max shows that it can reflect some very different designs (Ulti-Max, obviously, being a sit-down cockpit grounded armor- about as far from the flying SAMAS as one can get!).

You could call the Predator I and Red Falcon SAMAS equivalents, but I would judge them to be independently made designs, while the Predator II, War Eagle, and Butterfly are designs that have a bit of US-SAMAS DNA in them (while being based on Triax designs first).

Golden Age: NEMA acquires SAMAS units. Designated Silver Eagle (U.S.A.), Talon (Canada), Condor (Mexico). Armor values given for Non-Chromium versions. (CE pg94-96)

Oh ho. I missed the non-Chromium armor version- and one thing I will note is they are slightly above the Japanese Samurai SAMAS version (which is an up-armored basic SAMAS), but closer to that than any other version.

My hypothesis is what happened is they made the base SAMAS for the military (the one later found by Fort Apache and the CS), then partnered with ArmaTech, ArmaTech improved things to the Samurai SAMAS and started making it, passed the model back, and then NEMA (probably not KLS- the space colony controlled by them has no SAMASes- but someone in the North American military-industrial complex) tweeked it a bit more, and thanks to the improvements that made the base frame/design more robust, figured out how to add the difficult-to-apply Chromium armor to it.

It's kinda long, so I put it in a spoiler tag. What I could find I've listed here. If you know where other little bits are lurking please let me know. I only have the first 20 Rifters and I don't have either NG books yet, so if there is anything printed in newer ones pardon my ignorance.

Nice timeline and list, there's some good info in there!

One suit to add:
Sourcebook 1 Revised- The Republican Golden Eagle SAMAS (pg 131-132). Which is basically a non-Chromium Silver Eagle (including the lack of missile launchers), with protection in between the non-chrome and chrome versions, and made using Archie tech (hence the superior-than-normal armor).

Still falling short of the original Silver Eagle, it gets fairly close to Super SAMAS level, and was first made at some point within the last 30 years, most likely in the latter half of that stretch as it's considered one of the Republican's newer designs and they haven't stockpiled too many.


Rifter 47 apparently has some new SAMASs too, but I don't have that one yet myself.

I wonder if the Semper Fi PA from WB7 that the New Navy uses is derived from the SAMAS? It wouldn't need the wings and the thrusters would be different but seems a likely thought?

Mechghost wrote:I wonder if the Semper Fi PA from WB7 that the New Navy uses is derived from the SAMAS? It wouldn't need the wings and the thrusters would be different but seems a likely thought?

There is some resemblance, so yea, I wouldn't discount the possibility. Considering the era of design, it could be 'early offshoot,' 'cousin made at the same time,' 'made by a competitor,' or may've even come slightly earlier and inspired someone to say, "Hey, I bet we can make one of these babies *fly*...".


Hm, considering the different number designator and the difference in branch, I suspect it may be another competitor working within the North American countries. KLS + Cyberworks* equips NEMA, another manufacturer/designer hooks up with the Navy...



*I just remember, they're possibly the original designer! Or at least related to them. Archie-3 has schematics for both Glitterboy and at least one SAMAS model, after all. .

I think it was the reliability, easyness to manufacture, cheap price and it was there! That nade the suit legendary.
I mean if the budding cs had found minotaurs or solar power armor history would be written differently.

Q99 wrote:My hypothesis is what happened is they made the base SAMAS for the military (the one later found by Fort Apache and the CS), then partnered with ArmaTech, ArmaTech improved things to the Samurai SAMAS and started making it, passed the model back, and then NEMA (probably not KLS- the space colony controlled by them has no SAMASes- but someone in the North American military-industrial complex) tweeked it a bit more, and thanks to the improvements that made the base frame/design more robust, figured out how to add the difficult-to-apply Chromium armor to it.

I think that's almost what happened. I forgot that bit about archie too, nice catch. In that disc Erin Tarn talks about in WB 8 it showed several (3 I think) armatech scientists at the unveiling of the beta test units. I think cyberworks and armatech were working together on it from the drawing board.

1stTimeGM wrote:I think that's almost what happened. I forgot that bit about archie too, nice catch. In that disc Erin Tarn talks about in WB 8 it showed several (3 I think) armatech scientists at the unveiling of the beta test units. I think cyberworks and armatech were working together on it from the drawing board.

Makes sense.

Cyberworks being a high-end robotics company, they'd want help with a power-armor specialist like ArmaTech.

And, interestingly, a lot of the Cyberworks moon colony robots have a Japanese theme, the Samurai and Mikado, the latter of which has back-thrusters somewhat like a SAMAS (several generations removed, obviously). So a two-way trade there, perhaps.



The alternative being it was KLS and Armatech after all, and Cyberworks just got access to the data due to the role of it's ARCHIE AIs. The reason I mention KLS again is because I realized, despite my earlier writing off, (1) it'd be impressive if Armatech worked with two rival companies. The only reason I could see for that is if it was via the North American governments facilitating it, (2) KLS is the ones who make with the glitter, and (3) It does kinda make sense for there to be no SAMAS in space- if they didn't have a specific space variant made, you'd never think to bring one up.

So I could see arguments for either, though yea, Armatech is the primary company.

Q99 wrote:The alternative being it was KLS and Armatech after all, and Cyberworks just got access to the data due to the role of it's ARCHIE AIs. The reason I mention KLS again is because I realized, despite my earlier writing off, (1) it'd be impressive if Armatech worked with two rival companies. The only reason I could see for that is if it was via the North American governments facilitating it, (2) KLS is the ones who make with the glitter, and (3) It does kinda make sense for there to be no SAMAS in space- if they didn't have a specific space variant made, you'd never think to bring one up.

So I could see arguments for either, though yea, Armatech is the primary company.

KLS and Cyberworks are only rivals in Rifts Space. Prior to the Great Cataclysm, they were both contractors whom worked for the government (often times I am sure they were in competition for various contracts, but that was the extent of it...like Raythion and L3 are today). While KLS designed the Glitterboy, Cyberworks still produced them, much like how Springfield designed the M-1 Garand and Colt and Remington retooled their factories to make the Garand during WWII. Thats how ARCHIE got the plans for the glitter armor and suit designs. Apparently, GBs were more important and SAMAS were made only by KLS, or thats all we have to go off of right now.

It is of note that KLS was also working on technological rift machines prior to the great cataclysm in Florida (written in Dino Swamp page 110-111) and apparently acquired designs from the US government from the Lone Star complex (Dimension Door Level 9, Lone Start page 20) to complete that project. It could be a great adventure to introduce a Space SAMAS to the mix by investigating the Time Holes in Florida and uncovering plans there. The adventure could start in Lone Star after trying to investigate the Dimension Door project which leads you to Florida, which leads you to finding a Space SAMAS prototype.

I am sure if Space ever gets a revisit, Space SAMAS of some kind are going to make an appearance or mention of some form. Much like we all speculate that the New Navy should have SAMAS of some kind seeing we know the USAF has them but didnt learn about it until the next World Book after the New Navy was introduced. Unfortunately, Space has only seen a reiteration in Aftermath that offered very little new information; and New Navy wasnt even mentioned in Aftermath. Until then either sees a revisit, we can only speculate.

Q99 wrote:Oops, right Though it did get a US designation, so they were likely the primary partners.

The fact that they got a US designation doesn't mean anything of the such. All it means is that the platform received a designation w/n the US naming scheme. For example, Boeing does sell 7x7 aircraft to both the military and civilian market, in the US military market it receives a designation based on its mission even though it is also known as the 7x7 or something else by foreign operators. Foreign hardware is also known to receive a designation in the US naming scheme, and the trait is not unique to the US (China has its own designation for MIGs it is licensed to produce).

Q99 wrote:Only the Coalition itself, and Free Quebec, have managed the expertise and long experience to flat-out improve it.

The CS experience isn't that long though, IIRC it is connected to the discovery of Lone Star facility. The new designs are clearly connected to Lone Star (RUE)

The CS and FQ aren't the only ones with the experience to improve up on it. As of right now though, the CS and FQ are the ones that have seen book development (CWC, FQ, CSN).

I would also add that the NGR, Archie-3/Republicans and Kittani can produce improved versions, should they want to since both are ahead of the CS in the terms of technology. WB2 even mentions the Kittani can produce CS/CS-equivalent mecha (and Archie is producing SAMAS for the Republicans, so improvements can be made given Archie designs).

That others don't have SAMAS, doesn't mean they can't produce their own take on it or even improve upon it. The Kittani Flying Fox (WB21) is said to be a match for a Super SAMAS. The Triax X-11 Predator PA (SB1) is also said to be a equivalent of a regular SAMAS. Even the Titan Flying Power Armor (RMB/RUE) is in some respects a SAMAS clone.

The New Navy's APA-15 is noted in the Tico listing to have a version with jetpacks, so the suit could be a SAMAS relative (it isn't depicted/stated beyond a statement they exist, so it could have wings). It is also possible that the APA-15 has seen improvements over the past 3 centuries, culminating with the current version as the APA-15 with the original being some number closer to the SAMAS (assuming the US military still uses a unified designation system and the New Navy continues the tradition).

Q99 wrote:And it's not completely restricted- modern South America, and ArmaTech in Japan, make GBs themselves, after all. But that was likely some years after the GB first appeared

New Navy might also be able to produce Glitterboys, they do have some in their inventory. Though they don't seem to have their own variants, likely owing to limited role the unit can take in actions for an amphibious force (Boomgun/pylon). One of the Space Colonies has also produced Glitterboy variants.

FQ/NGR variants of the Glitterboy aren't that impressive. You have the GB-7 from SA2, the RoJ versions IMHO are superior to FQ and NGR, and Space Colonies have versions with beam cannons that have outpaced the surface world (damage/range is quite impressive for the Particle Beam cannon).

Q99 wrote:The alternative being it was KLS and Armatech after all, and Cyberworks just got access to the data due to the role of it's ARCHIE AIs. The reason I mention KLS again is because I realized, despite my earlier writing off, (1) it'd be impressive if Armatech worked with two rival companies. The only reason I could see for that is if it was via the North American governments facilitating it, (2) KLS is the ones who make with the glitter, and (3) It does kinda make sense for there to be no SAMAS in space- if they didn't have a specific space variant made, you'd never think to bring one up.

I doubt Archie's AI was given full access to confidential company information from competitors, what ever the AI received would likely have been information the govt had as part of the selection process (though KLS might not be to happy if the govt shared confidential information like that).

Working with rival companies isn't unheard of though on specific projects. Boeing and Lockheed are partners on the ATF program (yields the F-22), but competitors for the JSF program (yielding the F-35 from Lockheed), and in foreign sales of established designs they both inherited from acquisitions. Both are also partners in the rocket launcher business. It really depends on what role those companies played in various programs. They could be allies or competitors, or even been there to provide specific systems (Raython, GE, and P&W provide systems for both Boeing and Lockheed aircraft) to be used by the overall design.

The lack of anything that resembles a space-SAMAS isn't all that telling. Remember we are looking at the Colonies circa 100PA, 300 years after they get cut off. So the SAMAS design could have evolved to the point of being unrecognisable or replaced with something else due to pressures working on it.

Q99 wrote:As we all know, the SAMAS was originally a US suit, and was partnered with the Chromium Guardsmen/Glitterboys a lot.


Chaos Earth shows up and we see these Silver Eagle SAMAS- noted to be NEMA exclusive, and definitely the 'next generation' so to speak.


Does that suggest the actual external military of the US still used the basic SAMAS? It'd be interesting politically if NEMA actually got first dibs on the new models, but it makes sense.


We know from other material that there were still basic SAMAS factories in operation- the one Fort Apache has, and Area 51. Additionally, there was a partnership with Japan, who had their own, slightly better armed variant, and Area 51 was working on new variants.


From this, I'd gather that the SAMAS was basically the F-14 'workhorse,' still in use and still getting upgrades, where the Silver Eagle was the F-22 of it's day. Brand new, very flashy, and not yet made in such quantities so kept with one branch while the army, navy, and marines still used the SAMAS.

Additionally, like the Glitterboy, the SAMAS was an export model to an extent- some of the North American Alliance's allies would get it (well, just Japan), and it was possible for others to example (the Russians were noted to have perhaps used some SAMAS design principles in some of their cyborg designs, notably the Tempest, or more likely the Tempest's predecssor), while the Silver Eagle, the top of the top, was kept close to the chest where no-one could study or learn it's secrets.


So from this, I'd gather that the basic SAMAS, like the GB, was the US's prior generation suit, very impressive for it's role, but the new generation was coming along in two types. Both the addition of new upgraded variants to keep the old model in service, and a new heavier next-gen model in the Silver Eagle.



Then way down the road, the Coalition's SAMASes get a similar evolution, getting upgrades/variants like the Striker and V-SAMAS, as well as the next gen/heavier model in the Super-SAMAS (and similarly the Republican's Golden Eagle).



This sound about right?

The Silver Eagle is the F-14E or some variant like the F-16 block 70. It is not an entirely new machine. A new helmet and material does not make a new aircraft. Unless your looking at something like the F-17 and F-18.

Kagashi wrote:KLS and Cyberworks are only rivals in Rifts Space. Prior to the Great Cataclysm, they were both contractors whom worked for the government (often times I am sure they were in competition for various contracts, but that was the extent of it...like Raythion and L3 are today). While KLS designed the Glitterboy, Cyberworks still produced them, much like how Springfield designed the M-1 Garand and Colt and Remington retooled their factories to make the Garand during WWII. Thats how ARCHIE got the plans for the glitter armor and suit designs. Apparently, GBs were more important and SAMAS were made only by KLS, or thats all we have to go off of right now.

Ah ha, more pieces fall into place

I am sure if Space ever gets a revisit, Space SAMAS of some kind are going to make an appearance or mention of some form. Much like we all speculate that the New Navy should have SAMAS of some kind seeing we know the USAF has them but didnt learn about it until the next World Book after the New Navy was introduced. Unfortunately, Space has only seen a reiteration in Aftermath that offered very little new information; and New Navy wasnt even mentioned in Aftermath. Until then either sees a revisit, we can only speculate.

There was a Rifter article too, but it was mostly adding a new foe rather than expanding their gear at all.

Though as it does list the defense forces of the colonies, it gives the impression that the known power armors are pretty much it. It does kinda make sense for space to not have the variety of land.

ShadowLogan wrote:The CS and FQ aren't the only ones with the experience to improve up on it. As of right now though, the CS and FQ are the ones that have seen book development (CWC, FQ, CSN).

I would also add that the NGR, Archie-3/Republicans and Kittani can produce improved versions, should they want to since both are ahead of the CS in the terms of technology. WB2 even mentions the Kittani can produce CS/CS-equivalent mecha (and Archie is producing SAMAS for the Republicans, so improvements can be made given Archie designs).

Sure, definitely. Out of the powers that currently have a SAMAS, I mean, the other major tech powers could given a chance.

Armatech's revision of the SAMAS is still relatively recent to them, and the Apache and Black Market aren't going to improve theirs. Heck, Fort Apache trying to reverse-engineer it into a different model (i.e. one that won't draw CS attention) resulted in an inferior suit.

That others don't have SAMAS, doesn't mean they can't produce their own take on it or even improve upon it. The Kittani Flying Fox (WB21) is said to be a match for a Super SAMAS. The Triax X-11 Predator PA (SB1) is also said to be a equivalent of a regular SAMAS. Even the Titan Flying Power Armor (RMB/RUE) is in some respects a SAMAS clone.

A side-note on that is, of course, having their own models and styles already at that level, they may raid SAMAS for a few ideas (which I think Triax did with the Predator II and War Eagle and Butterfly) but they're unlikely to base a suit directly off of it.

The Kittani may make a SAMAS knock-off- with their own performance upgrades if desired of course- but if they want to make a new armor they'll stick to their own designs, I think.

I doubt Archie's AI was given full access to confidential company information from competitors, what ever the AI received would likely have been information the govt had as part of the selection process (though KLS might not be to happy if the govt shared confidential information like that).

Makes sense. And notably Archie didn't seem to have the chrome-Silver Eagle design.

The lack of anything that resembles a space-SAMAS isn't all that telling. Remember we are looking at the Colonies circa 100PA, 300 years after they get cut off. So the SAMAS design could have evolved to the point of being unrecognisable or replaced with something else due to pressures working on it.

Or for resource reasons, they could've just decided to focus on fewer designs.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Q99 wrote:As we all know, the SAMAS was originally a US suit, and was partnered with the Chromium Guardsmen/Glitterboys a lot.

Actually, it was never US exclusive. It was made in conjunction with Canada--part of the NEMA alliance. I don't think it was a US-Only show.

Chaos Earth shows up and we see these Silver Eagle SAMAS- noted to be NEMA exclusive, and definitely the 'next generation' so to speak.


Does that suggest the actual external military of the US still used the basic SAMAS? It'd be interesting politically if NEMA actually got first dibs on the new models, but it makes sense.

I think so, it'd make sense. it was the NEMA alliance itself that developed the SAMAS, not the US exclusively

We know from other material that there were still basic SAMAS factories in operation- the one Fort Apache has, and Area 51. Additionally, there was a partnership with Japan, who had their own, slightly better armed variant, and Area 51 was working on new variants.


From this, I'd gather that the SAMAS was basically the F-14 'workhorse,' still in use and still getting upgrades, where the Silver Eagle was the F-22 of it's day. Brand new, very flashy, and not yet made in such quantities so kept with one branch while the army, navy, and marines still used the SAMAS.

That's pretty much it. the basic, no-frills RMB Samas suit is a Workhorse, and a darn good one. it's a cheep, effective way to give an infantry squad unparelleled battlefeild mobility combined with a great deal of toughness. if it seems obsolecent now, it's only after a full Century of R&D by the CS and neighboring technological powers like northern gun have finnally unveiled suits that are simply superior in every way. and when you consider the 200 year gap between the fall of civilization and the releasing of the Super SAMAS and Smiling Jack SAMAS, it's even more impressive. very few military innovations stay in constant battlefeild use for 300 years.

Additionally, like the Glitterboy, the SAMAS was an export model to an extent- some of the North American Alliance's allies would get it (well, just Japan), and it was possible for others to example (the Russians were noted to have perhaps used some SAMAS design principles in some of their cyborg designs, notably the Tempest, or more likely the Tempest's predecssor), while the Silver Eagle, the top of the top, was kept close to the chest where no-one could study or learn it's secrets.

They were also sold to that said South American nation who accidentally razed a city with them because they didn't grasp yet that MDC means a boom gun will not only destroy the SDC vehicle in front of it but every SDC building behind it for the full 2 mile range, yes. so if even backwards third world nations can buy them, it's safe to say it's an export model.

So from this, I'd gather that the basic SAMAS, like the GB, was the US's prior generation suit, very impressive for it's role, but the new generation was coming along in two types. Both the addition of new upgraded variants to keep the old model in service, and a new heavier next-gen model in the Silver Eagle.



Then way down the road, the Coalition's SAMASes get a similar evolution, getting upgrades/variants like the Striker and V-SAMAS, as well as the next gen/heavier model in the Super-SAMAS (and similarly the Republican's Golden Eagle).



This sound about right?

Yup!

Don't forget they shared it with the Japanese too... or was that just the GB?

say652 wrote:I think it was the reliability, easyness to manufacture, cheap price and it was there! That nade the suit legendary.
I mean if the budding cs had found minotaurs or solar power armor history would be written differently.

Ease of manufacture nothing. The CS and FQ were the only ones to use it at the time because they found manufacturing plants. Completely the opposite from ease of manufacture. It is wholly dependent on a chance find by the CS of a manufacturing plant. No plant=No SAMAS or all of the equipment that are in the Rifts book as CS only equipment.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Q99 wrote:As we all know, the SAMAS was originally a US suit, and was partnered with the Chromium Guardsmen/Glitterboys a lot.

Actually, it was never US exclusive. It was made in conjunction with Canada--part of the NEMA alliance. I don't think it was a US-Only show.

Chaos Earth shows up and we see these Silver Eagle SAMAS- noted to be NEMA exclusive, and definitely the 'next generation' so to speak.


Does that suggest the actual external military of the US still used the basic SAMAS? It'd be interesting politically if NEMA actually got first dibs on the new models, but it makes sense.

I think so, it'd make sense. it was the NEMA alliance itself that developed the SAMAS, not the US exclusively

We know from other material that there were still basic SAMAS factories in operation- the one Fort Apache has, and Area 51. Additionally, there was a partnership with Japan, who had their own, slightly better armed variant, and Area 51 was working on new variants.


From this, I'd gather that the SAMAS was basically the F-14 'workhorse,' still in use and still getting upgrades, where the Silver Eagle was the F-22 of it's day. Brand new, very flashy, and not yet made in such quantities so kept with one branch while the army, navy, and marines still used the SAMAS.

That's pretty much it. the basic, no-frills RMB Samas suit is a Workhorse, and a darn good one. it's a cheep, effective way to give an infantry squad unparelleled battlefeild mobility combined with a great deal of toughness. if it seems obsolecent now, it's only after a full Century of R&D by the CS and neighboring technological powers like northern gun have finnally unveiled suits that are simply superior in every way. and when you consider the 200 year gap between the fall of civilization and the releasing of the Super SAMAS and Smiling Jack SAMAS, it's even more impressive. very few military innovations stay in constant battlefeild use for 300 years.

Additionally, like the Glitterboy, the SAMAS was an export model to an extent- some of the North American Alliance's allies would get it (well, just Japan), and it was possible for others to example (the Russians were noted to have perhaps used some SAMAS design principles in some of their cyborg designs, notably the Tempest, or more likely the Tempest's predecssor), while the Silver Eagle, the top of the top, was kept close to the chest where no-one could study or learn it's secrets.

They were also sold to that said South American nation who accidentally razed a city with them because they didn't grasp yet that MDC means a boom gun will not only destroy the SDC vehicle in front of it but every SDC building behind it for the full 2 mile range, yes. so if even backwards third world nations can buy them, it's safe to say it's an export model.

So from this, I'd gather that the basic SAMAS, like the GB, was the US's prior generation suit, very impressive for it's role, but the new generation was coming along in two types. Both the addition of new upgraded variants to keep the old model in service, and a new heavier next-gen model in the Silver Eagle.



Then way down the road, the Coalition's SAMASes get a similar evolution, getting upgrades/variants like the Striker and V-SAMAS, as well as the next gen/heavier model in the Super-SAMAS (and similarly the Republican's Golden Eagle).



This sound about right?

Yup!

Don't forget they shared it with the Japanese too... or was that just the GB?

I was speaking of both, but they wern't "shared" specifically, Armatech got a contract to manufacture them for NEMA, and then for the Republic of Japan after the apocalypse.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Ease of manufacture nothing. The CS and FQ were the only ones to use it at the time because they found manufacturing plants. Completely the opposite from ease of manufacture. It is wholly dependent on a chance find by the CS of a manufacturing plant. No plant=No SAMAS or all of the equipment that are in the Rifts book as CS only equipment.

Yea, everyone built what they found or could copy.


There's probably some states during the dark ages that found factories for, like, the NEMA firefighting power armor, and survived on that for a little while before being wiped out.

Q99 wrote:Armatech's revision of the SAMAS is still relatively recent to them, and the Apache and Black Market aren't going to improve theirs. Heck, Fort Apache trying to reverse-engineer it into a different model (i.e. one that won't draw CS attention) resulted in an inferior suit.

The Black Market is a business, they will look to improve their product if there is demand in the market it serves. They may not be willing to put that much into R&D without a paying customer(s) in the wings.

Armatech in terms of years "sidestepped" the Dark Ages and most of the 1st century PA, but in terms of actual XP there may not be that much difference. According to WB8 Erin Tarn saw a video in 78PA at the ChiTown Library (before it burned down) and then many years later (undefined) saw the SAMAS for the first time (WB8pg133). The 4 "Out of Time" Cities arrived in 87PA (WB8pg70). That means that chronologically speaking, the CS/NA-SAMAS and Armatech are likely have nearly the same amount of experience in actual use (I'd put it at w/n 10years since we don't have an date for the SAMAS), but Armatech has more experience/knowledge of the design owing to their direct Pre-Rifts roots. The Armatech design is superior to the FQ design that got a beam cannon since the Samurai SAMAS doesn't get hit with penalties the way the FQ Violator SAMAS does when it uses its energy beam rifle. So if Armatech decides (or more accurately Palladium writes it as such) to upgrade the SAMAS, it should be superior to the NA-versions.

Fort Apache I am guessing here will need time to do so. The first attempt may not have been successful as desired, but that doesn't mean they can't in the future.

Q99 wrote:The Kittani may make a SAMAS knock-off- with their own performance upgrades if desired of course- but if they want to make a new armor they'll stick to their own designs, I think.

True, but the Kittani most certainly can do such a feat. "They even sell knock-off and virtually identical robots and weapons as available in North America and Europe, including the Titan and Triax series of bots, weapons, and armor."-WB2pg35. So they may manufacture such items for sale, though they may not use them directly, so if a customer has an order for "improved" version of a SAMAS the Kittani most likely can deliver depending on what "improvements" are desired by the customer.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Black Market is a business, they will look to improve their product if there is demand in the market it serves. They may not be willing to put that much into R&D without a paying customer(s) in the wings.

I think they'll try, but their SAMAS models are brand new to them and totally cutting edge. It's going to be awhile before they can push forward beyond that in that area, though they will certainly apply the knowledge gained in other products.

Fort Apache I am guessing here will need time to do so. The first attempt may not have been successful as desired, but that doesn't mean they can't in the future.

First they'll catch up, and then eventually work from there, but it should take awhile.

It doesn't help that they have a smaller pop base, so fewer minds to work on the issue.

Please note...

NEMA was the multinational intelligence/homeland defence agency.

It was not the name of the alliance of the USA, mexico, and Canada... that was the NAA.. the North American Alliance.

The member sof the NAA retained their independent military forces, only NEMA was multinational across all three. And even there it is indicated the three countries each had their own branch of NEMA with regional variations in gear and organization.

As for places that had the SAMAS.. area51 had prototype suits for special variants. Lone star had a factory line. And fort apache had a factory line.

glitterboy2098 wrote:Please note...

NEMA was the multinational intelligence/homeland defence agency.

It was not the name of the alliance of the USA, mexico, and Canada... that was the NAA.. the North American Alliance.

The member sof the NAA retained their independent military forces, only NEMA was multinational across all three. And even there it is indicated the three countries each had their own branch of NEMA with regional variations in gear and organization.

Right.

The member states of the NAA likely used normal non-silver eagle SAMAS and Glitterboys, plus some other armors, like the New Navy's aquatic armor.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Q99 wrote:The Kittani may make a SAMAS knock-off- with their own performance upgrades if desired of course- but if they want to make a new armor they'll stick to their own designs, I think.

True, but the Kittani most certainly can do such a feat. "They even sell knock-off and virtually identical robots and weapons as available in North America and Europe, including the Titan and Triax series of bots, weapons, and armor."-WB2pg35. So they may manufacture such items for sale, though they may not use them directly, so if a customer has an order for "improved" version of a SAMAS the Kittani most likely can deliver depending on what "improvements" are desired by the customer.

From everything on the Kittani in Rifts and Mechanoids I don't think they'd choose to be dishonored by copying someone elses work unless the Splugorth ordered them to. And I don't think the sploogs care about adding NA as a sales location since they're multi-dimensional and their products that haven't been seen raiding NA would sell better than the NA stuff. UNLESS the sploogs are trying to do what ARCHIE does with the titan line and spy on NA, but the sploogs have much better ways of doing that than putting cameras in knock off robots.

Zer0 Kay wrote:From everything on the Kittani in Rifts and Mechanoids I don't think they'd choose to be dishonored by copying someone elses work unless the Splugorth ordered them to. And I don't think the sploogs care about adding NA as a sales location since they're multi-dimensional and their products that haven't been seen raiding NA would sell better than the NA stuff. UNLESS the sploogs are trying to do what ARCHIE does with the titan line and spy on NA, but the sploogs have much better ways of doing that than putting cameras in knock off robots.

I think they would, under the idea that their armorers need something to do to keep busy, not everyone is worthy of 'proper' Kittani stuff, and they like to sell stuff with plausible deniability too (Splugorth domains are, of course, highly profit focused, Kittani, aside from being warriors, also make stuff to sell).

If they want to make some weapons to sell and mess up some do-gooder kingdom, or to undercut Naruni, they can sell knock-off Triax or CS or whatever, and few could tell. Mimicing other's tech is probably a fun test of skill for them- and often upgraded, because they like to show off (someone may not know why it's better, but it's better).

This can be used to fan conflict, or simply to sell stuff in areas where people don't like Splurgorth. "Oh, this is one of those Triax thingies from that one dimension. I heard they were pretty good, I'll pick some up!"

Q99 wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:From everything on the Kittani in Rifts and Mechanoids I don't think they'd choose to be dishonored by copying someone elses work unless the Splugorth ordered them to. And I don't think the sploogs care about adding NA as a sales location since they're multi-dimensional and their products that haven't been seen raiding NA would sell better than the NA stuff. UNLESS the sploogs are trying to do what ARCHIE does with the titan line and spy on NA, but the sploogs have much better ways of doing that than putting cameras in knock off robots.

I think they would, under the idea that their armorers need something to do to keep busy, not everyone is worthy of 'proper' Kittani stuff, and they like to sell stuff with plausible deniability too (Splugorth domains are, of course, highly profit focused, Kittani, aside from being warriors, also make stuff to sell).

If they want to make some weapons to sell and mess up some do-gooder kingdom, or to undercut Naruni, they can sell knock-off Triax or CS or whatever, and few could tell. Mimicing other's tech is probably a fun test of skill for them- and often upgraded, because they like to show off (someone may not know why it's better, but it's better).

This can be used to fan conflict, or simply to sell stuff in areas where people don't like Splurgorth. "Oh, this is one of those Triax thingies from that one dimension. I heard they were pretty good, I'll pick some up!"

You forget Kittani are not evil. They work for the Splugorth because they are honor bound since the Sploogs saved them from the Mechanoids. They are an honorable race and take pride.in their workmanship. Copying someone else's designs is dishonorable and doing so to sell crapy workmanship is a slap in the face of the Kittani. It would be a punishment handed down by the sploogs.

Mechghost wrote:I wonder if the Semper Fi PA from WB7 that the New Navy uses is derived from the SAMAS? It wouldn't need the wings and the thrusters would be different but seems a likely thought?

What if it is the other way around?

OR what if they were designed at the same time like the JSF having a model for the USAF, Navy and Marines?

Zer0 Kay wrote:You forget Kittani are not evil. They work for the Splugorth because they are honor bound since the Sploogs saved them from the Mechanoids. They are an honorable race and take pride.in their workmanship. Copying someone else's designs is dishonorable and doing so to sell crapy workmanship is a slap in the face of the Kittani. It would be a punishment handed down by the sploogs.

They take pride, but 'honorable and takes pride' doesn't mean 'never knocks off.'

They have apprentice armorers who may have to work their way up. They can respect other designs.

Note how when they knock off, they normally do *improved* versions, with more MDC/damage output due to the quality of materials and craft. So it's not that they're selling crappy workmanship, it's that they're selling weaker weapons made really well.

Compare it to a modern craftperson making a well-made crossbow, or black power gun, or even a colt 1911 rather than a more advanced pistol. Most weapon people I know can appreciate outdated but well made stuff.



Also, well, they *are* evil Aberrant evil, likes to conquer. Their honor is directed to the service to Splynncryth and other Splugorth, and that means that they do want to do stuff to make their lords (who are often fairly merchant-minded) happy and move up the ranks. While there's some stuff they may view as beneath them and won't do, I don't think that's one of them. If making weapons hurts the enemy of their lord and softens up enemies in preparation for conquest and glorious assault, then I see them being willing to put effort to the task, even if it's not their most glorious assignment it leads to more glorious tasks, or at least profit that strengthens their kingdom.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Mechghost wrote:I wonder if the Semper Fi PA from WB7 that the New Navy uses is derived from the SAMAS? It wouldn't need the wings and the thrusters would be different but seems a likely thought?

What if it is the other way around?

OR what if they were designed at the same time like the JSF having a model for the USAF, Navy and Marines?

It was the Golden Age of Man and the concept of a suit of armor that augmented or granted super human powers was fairly standard since Triax unveiled the Uni-Max exoskeleton (Reference Triax 2 and/or Madhaven). The similarities between the two suits really ends there. The Semper Fi was designed for underwater and beach transition, where as the SAMAS was designed for urban flying. The weapon systems are not all that common either. No, I do not believe they were derivatives of one another. No idea who designed the suit, but there is no reason to assume it wouldnt have been the giants KLS or Cyberworks. Doesnt mean they are related though.

That being said, I DO think a Navy variant of the USA SAMAS should exist, at least during the Chaos Earth years. With concepts Mechghost mentions like the JSF currently being developed IRL, and the fact Combined themes exist in game (Mexico, Canada, and US all having variants via the NEMA), it really shouldnt be that much of a stretch to assume the Air Force, Army, and Navy (and Marines) wouldnt have had interest in specialized versions the USA SAMAS (think Iron Man 2 drones).

I think, in game, we suffer because the writers already knew WB8 was going to reveal the SAMAS was not a Coalition design and they were saving that "Luke I am your father" moment for Rifts Japan. Unfortunately, the New Navy was revealed in WB7 and didnt get the SAMAS treatment.

ZerO Kay wrote:From everything on the Kittani in Rifts and Mechanoids I don't think they'd choose to be dishonored by copying someone elses work unless the Splugorth ordered them to. And I don't think the sploogs care about adding NA as a sales location since they're multi-dimensional and their products that haven't been seen raiding NA would sell better than the NA stuff. UNLESS the sploogs are trying to do what ARCHIE does with the titan line and spy on NA, but the sploogs have much better ways of doing that than putting cameras in knock off robots.

Regardless of what you think their honour would find acceptable, they DO make knock-offs. The "why" they make the knock-offs isn't stated, only that they do.

Not to mention there could be numerous factors that influence this. It might not just be the higher ups. They could do it as a learning exercise on several fronts, a recoup on resources invested in learning about it (just look at the Plasma Net in WB21, it went to market even though it wasn't ready, but as a way to recoup investment IIRC).

Their sense of honour may work differently in the world of business than it does on the field of battle.

ZerO Kay wrote:Copying someone else's designs is dishonorable and doing so to sell crapy workmanship is a slap in the face of the Kittani. It would be a punishment handed down by the sploogs.

But at the same time the Kittani are highly intelligent, so if they can see the "value" in something they should copy it rather than take a "re-invent" the wheel approach. We know the Kittani find inspiration for designs elsewhere, so they are not above "copying" on some level.

Kagashi wrote:That being said, I DO think a Navy variant of the USA SAMAS should exist, at least during the Chaos Earth years.

Wasn't the SAMAS just about to enter production for the USAF though before the cataclysm? If I am recalling correctly, that would mean the SAMAS isn't an inventory item for USAF, and USAF (or some other service branch) might be higher up the pecking order in this case than Navy and Marines, so if they don't have it the guys/gals lower on down the line wouldn't have it either.

ShadowLogan wrote:

ZerO Kay wrote:From everything on the Kittani in Rifts and Mechanoids I don't think they'd choose to be dishonored by copying someone elses work unless the Splugorth ordered them to. And I don't think the sploogs care about adding NA as a sales location since they're multi-dimensional and their products that haven't been seen raiding NA would sell better than the NA stuff. UNLESS the sploogs are trying to do what ARCHIE does with the titan line and spy on NA, but the sploogs have much better ways of doing that than putting cameras in knock off robots.

Regardless of what you think their honour would find acceptable, they DO make knock-offs. The "why" they make the knock-offs isn't stated, only that they do.

Not to mention there could be numerous factors that influence this. It might not just be the higher ups. They could do it as a learning exercise on several fronts, a recoup on resources invested in learning about it (just look at the Plasma Net in WB21, it went to market even though it wasn't ready, but as a way to recoup investment IIRC).

Their sense of honour may work differently in the world of business than it does on the field of battle.

ZerO Kay wrote:Copying someone else's designs is dishonorable and doing so to sell crapy workmanship is a slap in the face of the Kittani. It would be a punishment handed down by the sploogs.

But at the same time the Kittani are highly intelligent, so if they can see the "value" in something they should copy it rather than take a "re-invent" the wheel approach. We know the Kittani find inspiration for designs elsewhere, so they are not above "copying" on some level.

Kagashi wrote:That being said, I DO think a Navy variant of the USA SAMAS should exist, at least during the Chaos Earth years.

Wasn't the SAMAS just about to enter production for the USAF though before the cataclysm? If I am recalling correctly, that would mean the SAMAS isn't an inventory item for USAF, and USAF (or some other service branch) might be higher up the pecking order in this case than Navy and Marines, so if they don't have it the guys/gals lower on down the line wouldn't have it either.

What book talks about the knock offs? Thanks.

Maybe by canon the USAF would be higher up. The USAF wouldn't like the SAMAS as it is an Infantry tool. It would be best used by the Marines and Army. Air Force and Navy use of aircraft is usually in need of faster, higher and greater payloads. The SAMAS would be a great asset to the special forces. Where did it say it had moved passed testing for the USAF?

Kittani knock offs are mentioned occurring in WB2pg35 (quoted the book earlier). WB2 doesn't go into specific examples, only mentions they exist and such.

Re: SAMAS production can be found on Pg113 of WB11 (CWC) Figures the last place to look (CWC, thought it was in Japan or Underseas go figure), but this is talking about the PA-06A SAMAS which is revealed to be "a slightly modified version of a pre-Rifts power armor suit developed by the Air Force of the old American Empire. It was about to be put into production when the world was shattered by the Great Cataclysm that signalled the Coming of the Rifts."

I'm not going to debate how a service branch might feel about the SAMAS, though I do agree with you that the SAMAS is more of an Army or Marine system. Though depending on how the SAMAS gets classified under law/treaty due to its flight capacity, it may be out of bounds to the Army to operate (IINM they are severely limited in being able to operate fixed wing aircraft as I understand it, and the SAMAS would be closer to fixed wing than rotary wing) unless the law/treaty is amended/changed in the world of Rifts.

i rather like the idea that the Samas was a "joint" design, shared by airforce, navy, marines, army, and NEMA.. which would explain the sidewinder and wild weasel variants being airforce (sidewinder being better at the flying stuff than the normal SAMAS, and the wild weasel filling a EW role), they could provide a degree of COIN capability the fast mover jets can't. (mainly in terms of flying low, slow, and loitering) the airforce would see them as niche platforms though.

the USA Samas from WB15 could be the 'army' variation.. basically a weapons swap from the baseline model (heavier railgun and extra missiles, to allow it to do some attack-helicopter type missions in addition to serving as airmobile infantry)

NEMA gets the Chromed version..

baseline SAMAS like the CS uses could be the Marine and Navy version in prerifts.. light railgun and reduced missile count compared to the army ones, but sufficent for ship defense and special ops use.

ShadowLogan wrote:Kittani knock offs are mentioned occurring in WB2pg35 (quoted the book earlier). WB2 doesn't go into specific examples, only mentions they exist and such.

Re: SAMAS production can be found on Pg113 of WB11 (CWC) Figures the last place to look (CWC, thought it was in Japan or Underseas go figure), but this is talking about the PA-06A SAMAS which is revealed to be "a slightly modified version of a pre-Rifts power armor suit developed by the Air Force of the old American Empire. It was about to be put into production when the world was shattered by the Great Cataclysm that signalled the Coming of the Rifts."

I'm not going to debate how a service branch might feel about the SAMAS, though I do agree with you that the SAMAS is more of an Army or Marine system. Though depending on how the SAMAS gets classified under law/treaty due to its flight capacity, it may be out of bounds to the Army to operate (IINM they are severely limited in being able to operate fixed wing aircraft as I understand it, and the SAMAS would be closer to fixed wing than rotary wing) unless the law/treaty is amended/changed in the world of Rifts.

Thank you for repeating yourself then.

Thank you again for the reference, just goes to show when a game has a game geek and not a military geek writing for it we get the military with really weird equipment that the branch would otherwise not have. Person all I'll think of it as the USAF were going to have PJ's and TACP use them. I can see them as exceptional tools for this two units... maybe the combat controllers too.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i rather like the idea that the Samas was a "joint" design, shared by airforce, navy, marines, army, and NEMA.. which would explain the sidewinder and wild weasel variants being airforce (sidewinder being better at the flying stuff than the normal SAMAS, and the wild weasel filling a EW role), they could provide a degree of COIN capability the fast mover jets can't. (mainly in terms of flying low, slow, and loitering) the airforce would see them as niche platforms though.

the USA Samas from WB15 could be the 'army' variation.. basically a weapons swap from the baseline model (heavier railgun and extra missiles, to allow it to do some attack-helicopter type missions in addition to serving as airmobile infantry)

NEMA gets the Chromed version..

baseline SAMAS like the CS uses could be the Marine and Navy version in prerifts.. light railgun and reduced missile count compared to the army ones, but sufficent for ship defense and special ops use.

I like that too!

The other possibility is the CS SAMAS just had slightly lower specs because the facility/plans may not have been 100% or something, and they had to fill in the blanks. Or maybe they lowered the specs themselves a bit to make it easier to mass produce...

glitterboy2098 wrote:i rather like the idea that the Samas was a "joint" design, shared by airforce, navy, marines, army, and NEMA.. which would explain the sidewinder and wild weasel variants being airforce (sidewinder being better at the flying stuff than the normal SAMAS, and the wild weasel filling a EW role), they could provide a degree of COIN capability the fast mover jets can't. (mainly in terms of flying low, slow, and loitering) the airforce would see them as niche platforms though.

the USA Samas from WB15 could be the 'army' variation.. basically a weapons swap from the baseline model (heavier railgun and extra missiles, to allow it to do some attack-helicopter type missions in addition to serving as airmobile infantry)

NEMA gets the Chromed version..

baseline SAMAS like the CS uses could be the Marine and Navy version in prerifts.. light railgun and reduced missile count compared to the army ones, but sufficent for ship defense and special ops use.

I am officially stealing this!

eliakon wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:i rather like the idea that the Samas was a "joint" design, shared by airforce, navy, marines, army, and NEMA.. which would explain the sidewinder and wild weasel variants being airforce (sidewinder being better at the flying stuff than the normal SAMAS, and the wild weasel filling a EW role), they could provide a degree of COIN capability the fast mover jets can't. (mainly in terms of flying low, slow, and loitering) the airforce would see them as niche platforms though.

the USA Samas from WB15 could be the 'army' variation.. basically a weapons swap from the baseline model (heavier railgun and extra missiles, to allow it to do some attack-helicopter type missions in addition to serving as airmobile infantry)

NEMA gets the Chromed version..

baseline SAMAS like the CS uses could be the Marine and Navy version in prerifts.. light railgun and reduced missile count compared to the army ones, but sufficent for ship defense and special ops use.

I am officially stealing this!

I was under the impression from the Indian samas that the CS scaled back the rail gun to save on materials and cost.

I agree, that is a good explanation. Though I'm curious, would the level of ECM the WW can do even be necessary for a unit like it? I mean, must radar isn't picking them up with their low altitude flying anyway.

Or maybe they would baffle sensors ahead of a troop drop or air strike?

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree, that is a good explanation. Though I'm curious, would the level of ECM the WW can do even be necessary for a unit like it? I mean, must radar isn't picking them up with their low altitude flying anyway.

Or maybe they would baffle sensors ahead of a troop drop or air strike?

It has been awhile since I actually looked at the Wild Weasel SAMAS. But yes ECM would be necessary, though its reach won't be as great as say a fighter or giant robot (it just doesn't have the available power). Said system can also help it defend against other radar equipped Power Armor (which if you will recall has radar as a default) or aircraft that might be flying about to detect and counter it.

Actually depending on were the radar is located, it can pick them up. Countering flying PA is probably going to pull a lot from cruise missile defense detection with radar. In addition to the above.

ZerO Kay wrote: Person all I'll think of it as the USAF were going to have PJ's and TACP use them. I can see them as exceptional tools for this two units... maybe the combat controllers too.

Its also possible that due to the Key West Accords (which dictates how flying platforms are handled between US AF and Army) the AF might have been coerced (or chose to freely) into providing air-air support to flying Army units (which the New West units are most geared toward I would think) to get a piece of the budgetary pie.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree, that is a good explanation. Though I'm curious, would the level of ECM the WW can do even be necessary for a unit like it? I mean, must radar isn't picking them up with their low altitude flying anyway.

Or maybe they would baffle sensors ahead of a troop drop or air strike?

It has been awhile since I actually looked at the Wild Weasel SAMAS. But yes ECM would be necessary, though its reach won't be as great as say a fighter or giant robot (it just doesn't have the available power). Said system can also help it defend against other radar equipped Power Armor (which if you will recall has radar as a default) or aircraft that might be flying about to detect and counter it.

Actually depending on were the radar is located, it can pick them up. Countering flying PA is probably going to pull a lot from cruise missile defense detection with radar. In addition to the above.

Remember their ECM is powered by a nuke reactor and it is tech from the golden age, a couple hundred years after the ECM on the EF-111. I think it could should be just as powerful.

ShadowLogan wrote:

ZerO Kay wrote: Person all I'll think of it as the USAF were going to have PJ's and TACP use them. I can see them as exceptional tools for this two units... maybe the combat controllers too.

Its also possible that due to the Key West Accords (which dictates how flying platforms are handled between US AF and Army) the AF might have been coerced (or chose to freely) into providing air-air support to flying Army units (which the New West units are most geared toward I would think) to get a piece of the budgetary pie.

Do you mean the Key West Agreement? Which is actually the "Function of the Armed Forces and the Joint Chiefs of Staff" policy paper drafted by the first U.S. Secretary of Defense James V. Forrestal under Harry S. Truman? Seeing as it is a policy paper and not an official accord it is possible and quite likely that those "accords" have been changed especially with the USAFs current dislike of providing ground support assets of any real value like the A-10 to the Army, instead choosing to replace it with platforms like the F-35 with comparably horrendous air support capabilities. It is almost like the USAF is trying to get the ground support mission stripped from them on the grounds of incompetence.

Edit: besides the US Army has already twisted those rules as the army was only supposed to have air assets for recon and medevac... so where does the Apache fit in there and no using the Longbow variant with the AN/APG-78 mast radar as the reason it is a recon unit as it is clearly listed in the armies arsenal as an Attack Helicopter.

Edit 2: I agree on the budgetary pie bit but ONLY after they attempted to get congress to instead provide said funds to another project which would allow them to escort the SAMAS like Attack Choppers could escort a troop advance. Maybe something on a configurable platform?

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree, that is a good explanation. Though I'm curious, would the level of ECM the WW can do even be necessary for a unit like it? I mean, must radar isn't picking them up with their low altitude flying anyway.

Or maybe they would baffle sensors ahead of a troop drop or air strike?

What do you classify as low altitude?

ZerO Kay wrote:Remember their ECM is powered by a nuke reactor and it is tech from the golden age, a couple hundred years after the ECM on the EF-111. I think it could should be just as powerful.

Not really. While the WW could be just as powerful as a real world EF-111 (which was retired some 20years ago IIRC, the F/A-18's Growler is more contemporary), the same technology that goes into PA if applied to larger platforms (giant robots or more conventional), which is what I was thinking of and not contemporary, should be even more powerful as they will have more powerful reactors to work with, and can pack larger and more powerful versions of them to boot. The WW SAMAS has limited volume to work with when compared to an golden age equiv. of the EF-111, and it would take multiple WW SAMAS to really replace a GA EF-111 equivalent.

That USAF in GA Rifts Earth was developing a ECM SAMAS suggests the DoD wanted Electronic Warfare support to be able to go where the SAMAS can go. Which does make some sense.

ZerO Kay wrote:Do you mean the Key West Agreement?

Yes. They have been amended at least twice since then, but are sometimes thought/presented as part of the KWA: Pace-Finletter MOU 1952 and Johnson-McConnell agreement of 1966. 1952 one specifically addresses helicopters.

ZerO Kay wrote:Edit: besides the US Army has already twisted those rules as the army was only supposed to have air assets for recon and medevac... so where does the Apache fit in there and no using the Longbow variant with the AN/APG-78 mast radar as the reason it is a recon unit as it is clearly listed in the armies arsenal as an Attack Helicopter.

At least to my understanding, the Army has freedom to operate freely with rotary wing aircraft (helicopters), its fixed wing aircraft that they face restrictions on. That is what allows the Apache (and similar Attack Helicopters) to fall under the Army w/o stepping on the toes of the AF. For the AF to give up the fixed-wing A-10 mission/role to the Army, I think they would need/want to get something in exchange.

And the SAMAS is closer to a fixed wing aircaft than a rotary wing aircraft IMHO, so it would logically fall to the AF (and Navy/Marines) w/o some type of new accords covering power armor in the world of Rifts. Without it Leap-Frogers (like the Triax Terrain Hopper) likely would be the extent of the Army's "fliers" capacity, they might also be able to pull off something with a detachable flight pack for paratroopers to if only contemporary accords guiding us.

ShadowLogan wrote:

ZerO Kay wrote:Remember their ECM is powered by a nuke reactor and it is tech from the golden age, a couple hundred years after the ECM on the EF-111. I think it could should be just as powerful.

Not really. While the WW could be just as powerful as a real world EF-111 (which was retired some 20years ago IIRC, the F/A-18's Growler is more contemporary), the same technology that goes into PA if applied to larger platforms (giant robots or more conventional), which is what I was thinking of and not contemporary, should be even more powerful as they will have more powerful reactors to work with, and can pack larger and more powerful versions of them to boot. The WW SAMAS has limited volume to work with when compared to an golden age equiv. of the EF-111, and it would take multiple WW SAMAS to really replace a GA EF-111 equivalent.

That USAF in GA Rifts Earth was developing a ECM SAMAS suggests the DoD wanted Electronic Warfare support to be able to go where the SAMAS can go. Which does make some sense.

ZerO Kay wrote:Do you mean the Key West Agreement?

Yes. They have been amended at least twice since then, but are sometimes thought/presented as part of the KWA: Pace-Finletter MOU 1952 and Johnson-McConnell agreement of 1966. 1952 one specifically addresses helicopters.

ZerO Kay wrote:Edit: besides the US Army has already twisted those rules as the army was only supposed to have air assets for recon and medevac... so where does the Apache fit in there and no using the Longbow variant with the AN/APG-78 mast radar as the reason it is a recon unit as it is clearly listed in the armies arsenal as an Attack Helicopter.

At least to my understanding, the Army has freedom to operate freely with rotary wing aircraft (helicopters), its fixed wing aircraft that they face restrictions on. That is what allows the Apache (and similar Attack Helicopters) to fall under the Army w/o stepping on the toes of the AF. For the AF to give up the fixed-wing A-10 mission/role to the Army, I think they would need/want to get something in exchange.

And the SAMAS is closer to a fixed wing aircaft than a rotary wing aircraft IMHO, so it would logically fall to the AF (and Navy/Marines) w/o some type of new accords covering power armor in the world of Rifts. Without it Leap-Frogers (like the Triax Terrain Hopper) likely would be the extent of the Army's "fliers" capacity, they might also be able to pull off something with a detachable flight pack for paratroopers to if only contemporary accords guiding us.

Well said and organized thank you.

ShadowLogan wrote:Kittani knock offs are mentioned occurring in WB2pg35 (quoted the book earlier). WB2 doesn't go into specific examples, only mentions they exist and such.

It does have a key sentence. Kittani pride themselves in being able to repair, disassemble, and build anything.

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree, that is a good explanation. Though I'm curious, would the level of ECM the WW can do even be necessary for a unit like it? I mean, must radar isn't picking them up with their low altitude flying anyway.

Or maybe they would baffle sensors ahead of a troop drop or air strike?

They do occasionally go high... I figure that with the coming proliferation of flying PA (SAMAS leading the way, but also Red Falcons, Ichto Tengu/Super-Tengu, etc.), there's both increase need to detect small low-fliers, and more mobile sensor platforms that may be at or beneath the altitude of your flying PA.

Q99 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Kittani knock offs are mentioned occurring in WB2pg35 (quoted the book earlier). WB2 doesn't go into specific examples, only mentions they exist and such.

It does have a key sentence. Kittani pride themselves in being able to repair, disassemble, and build anything.

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree, that is a good explanation. Though I'm curious, would the level of ECM the WW can do even be necessary for a unit like it? I mean, must radar isn't picking them up with their low altitude flying anyway.

Or maybe they would baffle sensors ahead of a troop drop or air strike?

They do occasionally go high... I figure that with the coming proliferation of flying PA (SAMAS leading the way, but also Red Falcons, Ichto Tengu/Super-Tengu, etc.), there's both increase need to detect small low-fliers, and more mobile sensor platforms that may be at or beneath the altitude of your flying PA.

In the GA they probably did away with radar state side as a proliferation of cell towers would allow for a nation wide, likely 100% coverage sensor net. Using cell towers was one of the ways that was suggested to detect stealth aircraft. As they pass through a the net they absorb and or deflect the signals a cell net could be used to detect these missing signals as all objects will do it to some extent. So a low altitude aircraft would still have to worry about detection.

In Rifts they don't have the cell net and radar can be adjusted to detect things at extremely low altitude however, they are LOS so mountains and trees and even storm clouds provide cover.