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It's not every day that I find myself needing to ask a question on the Lore of Rifts, but I saw something today that struck out at me. I found a line in Northern Gun 1 that caught my eye.

Northern Gun watched with intense interest as the upstart weapons manufacturer known as Iron Heart Armaments was established by Coalition rogues only to be subsequently re-conquered and absorbed back into the CS. The large ships and aircraft they produced were viewed as a legitimate threat to the Coalition States, a lesson the Trade Council has taken to heart. Long-range bombers, missile ships, nuclear weapons and similar development projects are all prohibited by the Trade Council for fear of pushing the Coalition into reacting with a military response.

Several things come to mind.

1: Just Earlier in the very same book, Iron Heart Armaments is listed as the 13th most advanced technology power in North America, just edging out Wellington Industries and Golden Age Weaponsmiths by a hair, who are considered functionally equal with IHA anyway. If they were conquered by the coalition states, why are they still listed as an independant technological power.

2: rifts Mercenaries says that the coalitions plan involved wiping more than 98% of the population of New Kenora (the city-state where IHA set up their factories), trying only to leave the factories and the Pre-Rifts designs therein intact. Was it such a slaughter, or did they conquer them with less casulties.

3: the entire reason for the conquest is because Iron Heart Armaments was selling Sophisticated, pre-rifts Long Range Nuclear Missiles and platforms, VTOL jet fighters and bombers and river boats all capable of launching long-range nuclear strikes anywhere on the target. One presumes that the reason for the less than 3% survival was because the coalition planned on manufacturing an excuse for a pre-emptive long range nuclear strike on New Kenora to combat the threat that they were the only power in Rifts Not only mass-producing Nukes but selling them to all and sundry. How was this conquest carried out without New Kenora nuking Chi-Town to dust? They had tens of thousands of nukes with enonge range to hit them stockpiled with more every day. How on earth do you conquer the leading mass producer of nuclear weapons on the contient period without being annilated in turn?

The only answer I can think of is that the coalition pre-emptively nuked the heck out of them with something to fool their sensors so they couldn't retaliate until New Kenora went up in mushroom clouds and then salvaged whatever they could, but if that was the case, one would think that would be noted instead of just "They were conquered and re-absorbed". that would explain the casulties listed in rifts mercenaries, but not how there was anything left to conquer. unless re-absorb means "They took a few factories and studied them."

How the hell did that get past editing? IHA was taken over back in WB11, with only 9% of New Kenora being killed (Most of which were D-Bees).

Aha! I was wondering if I missed something in an earlier book. *goes to flip through WB11*

Okay, So they just surrounded them and told them to surrender. I'm still not sure why they didn't just respond with a threat to nuke the CS in turn, though. that's the whole point of Mutually Assured Destruction. Yes they could have wiped them out but only by being wiped out in turn.

The reason nuclear threats are both good and bad is that they are scary. Ultimately though, no one wants nuclear war. Mutually Assured Destruction isn't about wiping out populations. It's about destroying nuclear weapons before they are fully activated, and only works when there are sites to target. The whole point of nuclear strategy is to never use the bloody things.

Otherwise you're just a lunatic that a council of super heroes will find some crazy way to take out with rules loopholes.

You found it already. Was about to answer..... Deleted post....

New Kenora was founded by CS troops right....so Would they nuke the CS? Hard to do if they felt pro CS still? Also they had little in the way of sophisticated security and were stunned by the large CS arrival that surrounded them?

Caught sleeping, or with their pants down eat?

Ultimately I think they just were not prepared to fight the CS because of being former CS themselves....if a non CS force had arrived I imagine their responce would have been different.

Just my thoughts

In any case it was a brilliant move on the part of Iron Heart, strategicly and such, can you tell the City of Iron is my favorite CS city?

Fell wrote:You found it already. Was about to answer..... Deleted post....

New Kenora was founded by CS troops right....so Would they nuke the CS? Hard to do if they felt pro CS still? Also they had little in the way of sophisticated security and were stunned by the large CS arrival that surrounded them?

Caught sleeping, or with their pants down eat?

Ultimately I think they just were not prepared to fight the CS because of being former CS themselves....if a non CS force had arrived I imagine their responce would have been different.

Just my thoughts

In any case it was a brilliant move on the part of Iron Heart, strategicly and such, can you tell the City of Iron is my favorite CS city?

True, I had overlooked the fact that they themselves were former CS. Yea, basically a group of CS Engineers unearthed a catch of Pre-Rifts designs for more conventional MDC vehicles (Tanks instead of robots, fighter jets, bombers, missile cruisers) and nuclear missiles and instead of sharing with the CS they went AWOL to go into business for themselves. I can see the logic in, when push coming to shove and they wake up already surrounded they would surrender without actually being able to raise their hand against the coalition states.

(they did however vanish the Designs before turning over the factories, so the CS still dosn't have the ability to make those designs, though they are surely trying to reverse-engineer them)

Alrik Vas wrote:The reason nuclear threats are both good and bad is that they are scary. Ultimately though, no one wants nuclear war. Mutually Assured Destruction isn't about wiping out populations. It's about destroying nuclear weapons before they are fully activated, and only works when there are sites to target. The whole point of nuclear strategy is to never use the bloody things.

Otherwise you're just a lunatic that a council of super heroes will find some crazy way to take out with rules loopholes.

I didn't say that nuclear war would be a good thing. I'm saying the CS was crazy for betting the house on the hope they wouldn't push the button. but sinse they were all former CS it makes more sense.

I recall the CS paid the employees to continue working and many were glad to be under CS rule. Also that the CS is using the factories in NK (retooled the factories) to produce CS equipment.

I don't have any Rifts books on me, not at home ... So forgive my question:

Did those at NK "delete" the plans for their weapons, vehicles ect?

I didn't recall that.

The whole section was a flush of the awesome gear IH made, honestly.

The further writers wanted to do away with that kind of warfare, so they had the CS stamp it out. All the vehicles (especially the AC-15) were lost, deleted, expunged, whatever.

Fell wrote:I recall the CS paid the employees to continue working and many were glad to be under CS rule. Also that the CS is using the factories in NK (retooled the factories) to produce CS equipment.

I don't have any Rifts books on me, not at home ... So forgive my question:

Did those at NK "delete" the plans for their weapons, vehicles ect?

I didn't recall that.

Yea, Says in WB11, all the pre-rifts designs were mysteriously gone and none of the present employees knew (or were telling) what happened.

Yea, Says in WB11, all the pre-rifts designs were mysteriously gone and none of the present employees knew (or were telling) what happened.

Cool. Thanks.

Just couldn't recall.

By no means did I mean you were wrong, I just was not able to recall that part. Time to re read all the books I guess

Alrik Vas wrote:The whole section was a flush of the awesome gear IH made, honestly.

The further writers wanted to do away with that kind of warfare, so they had the CS stamp it out. All the vehicles (especially the AC-15) were lost, deleted, expunged, whatever.

To be fair, it does say the secondary market/black market is already flooded with thousands of the things that will be available in general circulation for years to come.

Fell wrote:

Yea, Says in WB11, all the pre-rifts designs were mysteriously gone and none of the present employees knew (or were telling) what happened.

Cool. Thanks.

Just couldn't recall.

By no means did I mean you were wrong, I just was not able to recall that part. Time to re read all the books I guess

Sourcebook 4 covers the Iron Heart Avengers which are part of the group that cleared out before the conquest of New Kenora.

*checks Coalition Navy*

Okay! So apparently the Iron Heart Avengers smuggled the designs and schematics out just before the invasion and could start producing them again if they ever secure a new power base. That's a much more interesting plotline.

Thought they were still CS?????

boxee wrote:Thought they were still CS?????

Iron Heart is and always was part of the Coalition.

Iron Heart ARMAMENTS was an arms dealer founded by AWOL Coalition engineers from Iron Heart who set up shop in a small city state northwest of Iron Heart

as of WB 11, they were in business a few years before the coalition got around to conquering the upstarts, but in a surprising gesture of goodwill they permitted the deserters to not only live but stay and keep running their new factories so long as they produced CS gear for the CS. Only one who refused to re-swear loyalty was shot for treason.

They're probably on the list because, well, why not? When they were around that's where they were, so in case you're curious you can check.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Long-range bombers, missile ships, nuclear weapons and similar development projects are all prohibited by the Trade Council

Assuming there aren't any NG products able to fire long-range missiles (please correct me if wrong) are there possibly any which can launch medium-range missiles for which we should keep in mind that we would have to acquire medium-range nukes from somewhere else as NG does not produce them? So if you got them, their standard payload could only be other kinds of medium-range missiles?

On a somewhat related note, I only recently noticed that RUE finally included credit costs for missiles, something I had been relying on Mercs/Sourcebook1 to provide for a long time.

Based on all the nuclear-powered bots I assume nuclear fuel reactors aren't included in the 'nuclear weapons' category, but it seems like any nuclear missile would be. Or are we thinking maybe this only applies to the super-nukes in CS Navy and that NG might well sell medium or even long-range nuclear missiles?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Earlier in the very same book, Iron Heart Armaments is listed as the 13th most advanced technology power in North America

If they were conquered by the coalition states, why are they still listed as an independant technological power.

All I can figure is that while their main base (New Kenora) was wiped out, maybe remnants of the company survived?

Perhaps that means that they used to be higher than 13th and that New Kenora's destruction is what demoted them?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:How was this conquest carried out without New Kenora nuking Chi-Town to dust? They had tens of thousands of nukes with enonge range to hit them stockpiled with more every day. How on earth do you conquer the leading mass producer of nuclear weapons on the contient period without being annilated in turn?

Probably because it's easy enough to detonate a volley of incoming long-range missiles with mini-missiles, and every SAMAS has 2 of them on an arm. The CS probably has enough SAMAS pilots in the air at all times to engage incoming long-range missile volleys and shoot them down.

Did New Kenora have tens of thousands of nukes? They were certainly manufacturing LRM-launching planes and boats, but I don't know if they would keep them loaded with missiles. They may well, for safety and fuel efficiency reasons, decide to store missiles separately and keep the boats unloaded until sale.

They probably would keep some of these for their own defensive use, it just may not have been adequate for engaging the CS. The CS might have for example, used medium-range missile volleys to deplete their anti-missiles defenses ahead of time, before launching the LRMs to deplete the final blow. This would be a good tactic, get your enemy to use up their mini-missiles on your weaker arms so that they aren't available to engage your strong arms.

LRM nuclear weapons are not city smashers. LRM nukes are very, very tiny tac-nukes of some sort with miniscule blasts. The manufacture and sale of them is not evidence that a force has access to the much large strategic nuclear weapons seen in the Coalition Navy sourcebook.

I know, I didn't say they were. LRMs alone are still dangerous enough to possible make the CS want to wipe you out though. Even with the lower damage they had in RMB and not the enhanced-damage Coalition versions introduced in CWC which are apparently standard everywhere now as of RUE.

How often do we see LRM-capable stuff? Even medium-range seems rare enough (though not so rare as the elusive short-range).

Most MRM platforms appear on large military vehicles and mechs. LRM the same, just more rare.

There are some nigh on unique examples of one or the other popping up in smaller platforms, though.

A few different types of aircraft also mount LRMs. Mostly CS hardware.

eliakon wrote:LRM nuclear weapons are not city smashers. LRM nukes are very, very tiny tac-nukes of some sort with miniscule blasts. The manufacture and sale of them is not evidence that a force has access to the much large strategic nuclear weapons seen in the Coalition Navy sourcebook.

and where did it say that IHA was making nuclear LRM's?

the standard HE, AP, or Frag warheads are deadly enough for most uses.

Tor wrote:I know, I didn't say they were. LRMs alone are still dangerous enough to possible make the CS want to wipe you out though. Even with the lower damage they had in RMB and not the enhanced-damage Coalition versions introduced in CWC which are apparently standard everywhere now as of RUE.

How often do we see LRM-capable stuff? Even medium-range seems rare enough (though not so rare as the elusive short-range).

it's not just the LRM, it's the bombs. the bomber was capable of launching firing volleys of up to 30 Smart bombs (+6 strike, better than smart missiles) with the nuclear warheads and carried hundreds of them. at that point, a few of them could bust a city through nuclear carpet bombing. Also, while you can shoot down missiles, you cannot shoot down nulcear bombs. It was the threat of the air castle bomber, explictly in the text for it, that is the reason they decided to conquer New kenora if they didn't stop selling them.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

eliakon wrote:LRM nuclear weapons are not city smashers. LRM nukes are very, very tiny tac-nukes of some sort with miniscule blasts. The manufacture and sale of them is not evidence that a force has access to the much large strategic nuclear weapons seen in the Coalition Navy sourcebook.

and where did it say that IHA was making nuclear LRM's?

the standard HE, AP, or Frag warheads are deadly enough for most uses.

It says they sold them with All types of long range missiles, which includes nuclear by default.

All LRM may be the text, but Mercenaries was written long before CS Navy or Under Seas.

I doubt IH would make nukes. That's like inviting the CS to come.conquer you. The AC-15 is buff enough without.

Alrik Vas wrote:All LRM may be the text, but Mercenaries was written long before CS Navy or Under Seas.

I doubt IH would make nukes. That's like inviting the CS to come.conquer you. The AC-15 is buff enough without.

Which means that when written yes it only sold the 'chibi' versions (2d6x10 medium nuke, 3d6x10 heavy nuke and 4d6x10 multi-warhead nuke. Which makes sense they are functionally identical to all the other missiles.
Then several books after Mercenaries was written they changed the stats on the missiles. Now suddenly nukes are doing 1d4x100 1d6x100 and 2d6x100 (though still with the 40 and 50 foot blast radius)...so if we don't go back and change the text in mercenaries to reflect the changes to the game world then yes, retroactively their actions in selling all long range missiles would be stupid....but at the time the book was written they weren't. Because when it was written those nukes were just another missile, nothing special so no reason to say something like "they sell all long range missiles except for nukes"...

Alrik Vas wrote:All LRM may be the text, but Mercenaries was written long before CS Navy or Under Seas.

I doubt IH would make nukes. That's like inviting the CS to come.conquer you. The AC-15 is buff enough without.

Long range nuclear warheads existed in RMB, actually.

Tor wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Long-range bombers, missile ships, nuclear weapons and similar development projects are all prohibited by the Trade Council

Assuming there aren't any NG products able to fire long-range missiles (please correct me if wrong) are there possibly any which can launch medium-range missiles for which we should keep in mind that we would have to acquire medium-range nukes from somewhere else as NG does not produce them? So if you got them, their standard payload could only be other kinds of medium-range missiles?

Nothern Gun sells all kinds of missiles, including long range, nothing that laucnhes them. However, it does say that northern gun employs a very sophistaced series of cutouts and shell corporations through it shells things that the CS dosn't like and to people they don't like. Even when it violates the terms of their alliance, they just use so many layers tracing is basicaly impossible and the CS is clueless. It helps that nothern gun is the oldest (And in the begining, only) arms dealer in north america and all it's products have been circulating in the secondary and used markets for decades.

Based on all the nuclear-powered bots I assume nuclear fuel reactors aren't included in the 'nuclear weapons' category, but it seems like any nuclear missile would be.

Correct.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Earlier in the very same book, Iron Heart Armaments is listed as the 13th most advanced technology power in North America

If they were conquered by the coalition states, why are they still listed as an independant technological power.

All I can figure is that while their main base (New Kenora) was wiped out, maybe remnants of the company survived?

Perhaps that means that they used to be higher than 13th and that New Kenora's destruction is what demoted them?

Possibly, Coalition Navy says that Iron Heart Avengers are a group of IHA employees that left port just before the Coalition invaded and successfully smuggled all the plans and designs for IHA equipment with them. It says they are fully capable of restarting the company and producing all designs if they get proper facilities and land based power, however, as of now they have no land base and make a living raiding the CS wherever possible until they can rebuild their facilities somewhere out of the CS's reach.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:How was this conquest carried out without New Kenora nuking Chi-Town to dust? They had tens of thousands of nukes with enonge range to hit them stockpiled with more every day. How on earth do you conquer the leading mass producer of nuclear weapons on the contient period without being annilated in turn?

Probably because it's easy enough to detonate a volley of incoming long-range missiles with mini-missiles, and every SAMAS has 2 of them on an arm. The CS probably has enough SAMAS pilots in the air at all times to engage incoming long-range missile volleys and shoot them down.

There is that I guess.

Did New Kenora have tens of thousands of nukes? They were certainly manufacturing LRM-launching planes and boats, but I don't know if they would keep them loaded with missiles. They may well, for safety and fuel efficiency reasons, decide to store missiles separately and keep the boats unloaded until sale.

They probably would keep some of these for their own defensive use, it just may not have been adequate for engaging the CS. The CS might have for example, used medium-range missile volleys to deplete their anti-missiles defenses ahead of time, before launching the LRMs to deplete the final blow. This would be a good tactic, get your enemy to use up their mini-missiles on your weaker arms so that they aren't available to engage your strong arms.

Also a good point. Yea, they probablly didn't have enough of a ready set up to do it when they were caught with their pants down.

Well and as I pointed out before.....when the book was written it wasn't actually making and selling anything special.
Its only if we wait until years after the book is written, then take the retroactive changes and then infer that the older books material should be held to a revision that wasn't out then, and that thus they were some how deliberately selling super dangerous weapons that everyone else is smart enough not to sell.....
Yes NG doesn't sell Nuclear Weapons.....but that is because NOW nukes are special snowflakes....when Iron Heart was selling them they were just another generic missile. It seems unfair to hold Iron Heart to the standards of a book written YEARS latter....

Nekira Sudacne wrote:*checks Coalition Navy*

Okay! So apparently the Iron Heart Avengers smuggled the designs and schematics out just before the invasion and could start producing them again if they ever secure a new power base. That's a much more interesting plotline.

Then, later, after they successfully sabotage the construction of a new aircraft carrier in Fort Pinnacle, the CS Navy wipes them out while they winter in Veracruz. It is rumored that the leaders and weapon plans have now moved to inland mexico, where some fear that they might get used by the Vampire Kingdoms.

see, Vampire Sourcebook

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:All LRM may be the text, but Mercenaries was written long before CS Navy or Under Seas.

I doubt IH would make nukes. That's like inviting the CS to come.conquer you. The AC-15 is buff enough without.

Long range nuclear warheads existed in RMB, actually.

Not "those ones."

Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

They didn't, as I said, it was a group of employees who escaped.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

They didn't, as I said, it was a group of employees who escaped.

Right....the question is if the Black Market was able to get ahold of those designs, either from the original Iron Heart, or the Avengers on one of their moves....(Like say in exchange for the capitol to make a new aircraft carrier, or to hide some people escaping CS assassins or....)

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

They didn't, as I said, it was a group of employees who escaped.

Right....the question is if the Black Market was able to get ahold of those designs, either from the original Iron Heart, or the Avengers on one of their moves....(Like say in exchange for the capitol to make a new aircraft carrier, or to hide some people escaping CS assassins or....)

The cannonical answer is, as I said, no, they are also said to be the ONLY ones to have them.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

They didn't, as I said, it was a group of employees who escaped.

Right....the question is if the Black Market was able to get ahold of those designs, either from the original Iron Heart, or the Avengers on one of their moves....(Like say in exchange for the capitol to make a new aircraft carrier, or to hide some people escaping CS assassins or....)

The cannonical answer is, as I said, no, they are also said to be the ONLY ones to have them.

Right, as of when though?
I know that Iron Heart Arms was said to be the only known people with these plans (though it begs belief that the CS or Archie doesn't have them since they are pre-rifts military designs). But I am interested in if there is an explicit statement in a book that says that no one else has them, at all? Not just not known to have them, but explicitly states outright that no one has these plans. And if there is such a statement how current is it?

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

They didn't, as I said, it was a group of employees who escaped.

Right....the question is if the Black Market was able to get ahold of those designs, either from the original Iron Heart, or the Avengers on one of their moves....(Like say in exchange for the capitol to make a new aircraft carrier, or to hide some people escaping CS assassins or....)

The cannonical answer is, as I said, no, they are also said to be the ONLY ones to have them.

Right, as of when though?
I know that Iron Heart Arms was said to be the only known people with these plans (though it begs belief that the CS or Archie doesn't have them since they are pre-rifts military designs). But I am interested in if there is an explicit statement in a book that says that no one else has them, at all? Not just not known to have them, but explicitly states outright that no one has these plans. And if there is such a statement how current is it?

Why? It's pretty clear you just want someone to get the designs and start making them again, in which case you can just do it in your games no matter what the books say.

But Coalition navy says that Iron Heart Avengers are the only ones who have it. Someone might get them later on since they were scattered into the vampire kingdoms as of Vampire Sourcebook, but as of right now, no one else does.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:Right....the question is if the Black Market was able to get ahold of those designs, either from the original Iron Heart, or the Avengers on one of their moves....(Like say in exchange for the capitol to make a new aircraft carrier, or to hide some people escaping CS assassins or....)

The cannonical answer is, as I said, no, they are also said to be the ONLY ones to have them.

Right, as of when though?
I know that Iron Heart Arms was said to be the only known people with these plans (though it begs belief that the CS or Archie doesn't have them since they are pre-rifts military designs). But I am interested in if there is an explicit statement in a book that says that no one else has them, at all? Not just not known to have them, but explicitly states outright that no one has these plans. And if there is such a statement how current is it?

You know if you want the black market to have them in your games, you can just do it no matter what the book says, right? ;0

Yes. But I am interested now in the actual canon status of these plans and who can or can not have them.
Especially since the question about them was answered with a "The canonical answer is...." which makes me curious about where this canon answer comes from......

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:Right....the question is if the Black Market was able to get ahold of those designs, either from the original Iron Heart, or the Avengers on one of their moves....(Like say in exchange for the capitol to make a new aircraft carrier, or to hide some people escaping CS assassins or....)

The cannonical answer is, as I said, no, they are also said to be the ONLY ones to have them.

Right, as of when though?
I know that Iron Heart Arms was said to be the only known people with these plans (though it begs belief that the CS or Archie doesn't have them since they are pre-rifts military designs). But I am interested in if there is an explicit statement in a book that says that no one else has them, at all? Not just not known to have them, but explicitly states outright that no one has these plans. And if there is such a statement how current is it?

You know if you want the black market to have them in your games, you can just do it no matter what the book says, right? ;0

Yes. But I am interested now in the actual canon status of these plans and who can or can not have them.
Especially since the question about them was answered with a "The canonical answer is...." which makes me curious about where this canon answer comes from......

Coalition navy says that Iron Heart Avengers are the only ones who smuggled the designs out before the capture. Someone might get them later on since they were scattered into the vampire kingdoms as of Vampire Sourcebook, but as of right now, that's it.

the timeline is: World book 11: CS conquers New Kenora, only to find all the designs are missing.

Sourcebook 4: Iron Heart Avengers smuggled out the only copies.

Vampire kingdoms: Iron Heart Avengers have their fleet destroyed and the survivors flee inland into mexico.

Northern Gun 1: Northern Gun has one of each Iron Heart Armaments products in their reverse engineering lab, and while they are learning new things about golden age technology from them, they are not able to reproduce any of the machines at this time.

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

As we know IHA's designs came from the ruins of Sudbury.
If you look at Rifts Black Market "Bandito Arms" pg 21 you'll find this mention about area 51:
They have pulled numerous prototypes and plans for golden age weapons, armor and aircraft from the ruin.

It's very safe to presume what ever plans they found at Groom Lake/area 51 they can very well be plans to the AC-29 Air Castle (a Heavy bomber that would never have been built with "liquid fuel" engines giving it the pathetic operational range of WW1 era heavy bombers), Grey Falcon and so on, OR they could even be superior designs (remember this facility housed the pinnacle of such military hardware of its era).

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:Right....the question is if the Black Market was able to get ahold of those designs, either from the original Iron Heart, or the Avengers on one of their moves....(Like say in exchange for the capitol to make a new aircraft carrier, or to hide some people escaping CS assassins or....)

The cannonical answer is, as I said, no, they are also said to be the ONLY ones to have them.

Right, as of when though?
I know that Iron Heart Arms was said to be the only known people with these plans (though it begs belief that the CS or Archie doesn't have them since they are pre-rifts military designs). But I am interested in if there is an explicit statement in a book that says that no one else has them, at all? Not just not known to have them, but explicitly states outright that no one has these plans. And if there is such a statement how current is it?

You know if you want the black market to have them in your games, you can just do it no matter what the book says, right? ;0

Yes. But I am interested now in the actual canon status of these plans and who can or can not have them.
Especially since the question about them was answered with a "The canonical answer is...." which makes me curious about where this canon answer comes from......

There ISN'T a canon answer.
What was said that there is was speculation on their part.
There is nothing that say's they are the only ones with those plans, remember these are pre-rifts plans.
Area-51 (Bandito Arms) could have had the plans to the golden age era aircraft plans that were found there.
Remember area 51 would be where the most premier American military aircraft of the time was so anything thing there would rival if not exceed anything any other nation on the planet would have had (puts a bit of a damper on any power creep from any pre-rifts tech aircraft from appearing in future books).

WB33 NG1 pg 17 second column under Stealing ideas and designs, you will find Iron Heart Armament listed.
The aircraft may be in reverse engineer lab (and taking far longer than has any right to be if anyone paid any attention to IHA's manufacturing tech limitation in mercenaries book) but the AC-29 would never be built as a bomber (although a transport is feasible), the Iron Eagle is a piece of junk in comparison to NG's helicopters so that would leave the Grey Fox as any real value to them to reverse engineer.

Source book 4 does NOT say IHA smuggled out the only copies, it only says the avengers plan to "rebuild Iron heart
using weapon plans smuggled out aboard one of their planes"

World Book 11 CWC pg 26 says 20% fled the area instead of staying and working for the CS.

pg27 The CS occupation force was distressed to learn that the original pre-Rifts plans for the tanks and other items are missing, which means they could resurface someplace new.
That's a lot of smuggling opportunities right there with absolutely no canon answer against it.

There isn't even any canon evidence saying where the plans or the Iron Heart Avenger survivors are.
Rifts source book Vampires pg 104 only states that Adm. Copeland had reason to suspect that the Leader and the top engineer survivors fled to the Mexican interior, he couldn't go out to prove it without committing treason.

There is still the very real possibility that the survivors got away aboard the unarmed transport version of the AC-29 they had with the schematics they had and common sense dictates that unarmed transport is useless for taking out to fight so it could and would have been used to escape.
The CS forces wouldn't have been able to pursue the transport inland very far due to their "invading the wrong place" issues without causing treason for doing so (Rifts source book Vampires pg104)

Where any of the schematics are and who has them is all conjecture, there is NO canon answer currently.
There is enough vagueness in the books to leave it open to the GM.
The Iron Heart Avengers survivors could be sucking down Tequila shooters with Doc Reid and talking to Bandito Arms people now for all anyone knows.

Gamer wrote:

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

As we know IHA's designs came from the ruins of Sudbury.
If you look at Rifts Black Market "Bandito Arms" pg 21 you'll find this mention about area 51:
They have pulled numerous prototypes and plans for golden age weapons, armor and aircraft from the ruin.

It's very safe to presume what ever plans they found at Groom Lake/area 51 they can very well be plans to the AC-29 Air Castle (a Heavy bomber that would never have been built with "liquid fuel" engines giving it the pathetic operational range of WW1 era heavy bombers), Grey Falcon and so on, OR they could even be superior designs (remember this facility housed the pinnacle of such military hardware of its era).

Actually, given that bandito arms has area 51, I seriously doubt that they have equivlents to IHA--whatever they found is likely to be better, just that they lack facilities to build them


I was saying no one had these exact copies. not that equivlent/superior designs might not be kicking around.

I'm not well versed in military matters, but perhaps it's not so easy to fire long range missiles and actually hit anything.

Without satellite guidance, wouldn't one have to have people on the ground "painting" the target?

If they sent a bomber, the CS could track it, and kill it, couldn't they? Also, since it was a surprise attack, would they even be able to send a bomber out?

I think, without guided ICBMs, that sort of thing takes time and planning. It has to be a preemptive strike, a surprise attack, itself. Waking up with an army surrounding your small operation one day probably wouldn't provide any opportunity.

[EDIT] Even with ICBMs, the way mutual assured destruction is described is that a large amount of missiles is launched by one side, too many to counter, but seen clearly by the other side. So the other side sends its large amount of missiles.

A bomber or two, or perhaps anything IHA could throw at them, could be countered by the CS I imagine. It wouldn't be mutual destruction.

Jorick wrote:I'm not well versed in military matters, but perhaps it's not so easy to fire long range missiles and actually hit anything.

Without satellite guidance, wouldn't one have to have people on the ground "painting" the target?

If they sent a bomber, the CS could track it, and kill it, couldn't they? Also, since it was a surprise attack, would they even be able to send a bomber out?

I think, without guided ICBMs, that sort of thing takes time and planning. It has to be a preemptive strike, a surprise attack, itself. Waking up with an army surrounding your small operation one day probably wouldn't provide any opportunity.

[EDIT] Even with ICBMs, the way mutual assured destruction is described is that a large amount of missiles is launched by one side, too many to counter, but seen clearly by the other side. So the other side sends its large amount of missiles.

A bomber or two, or perhaps anything IHA could throw at them, could be countered by the CS I imagine. It wouldn't be mutual destruction.

Iron Heart only had the baby-nukes that fit on LRMs these do either 4d6x10 or 2d6x100 to a 50' radius depending on if your using RMB or RUE to outfit them. They did NOT have the city smashing nukes of the CS Navy. Thus they were never in the running for MAD.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Gamer wrote:

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

As we know IHA's designs came from the ruins of Sudbury.
If you look at Rifts Black Market "Bandito Arms" pg 21 you'll find this mention about area 51:
They have pulled numerous prototypes and plans for golden age weapons, armor and aircraft from the ruin.

It's very safe to presume what ever plans they found at Groom Lake/area 51 they can very well be plans to the AC-29 Air Castle (a Heavy bomber that would never have been built with "liquid fuel" engines giving it the pathetic operational range of WW1 era heavy bombers), Grey Falcon and so on, OR they could even be superior designs (remember this facility housed the pinnacle of such military hardware of its era).

Actually, given that bandito arms has area 51, I seriously doubt that they have equivlents to IHA--whatever they found is likely to be better, just that they lack facilities to build them


I was saying no one had these exact copies. not that equivlent/superior designs might not be kicking around.

There's nothing in the books to back your claim, don't claim your conjecture as canon.

Gamer wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Gamer wrote:

Defender_X wrote:Hmmm...I wonder if the black market got hold of IHA's design schematics.

As we know IHA's designs came from the ruins of Sudbury.
If you look at Rifts Black Market "Bandito Arms" pg 21 you'll find this mention about area 51:
They have pulled numerous prototypes and plans for golden age weapons, armor and aircraft from the ruin.

It's very safe to presume what ever plans they found at Groom Lake/area 51 they can very well be plans to the AC-29 Air Castle (a Heavy bomber that would never have been built with "liquid fuel" engines giving it the pathetic operational range of WW1 era heavy bombers), Grey Falcon and so on, OR they could even be superior designs (remember this facility housed the pinnacle of such military hardware of its era).

Actually, given that bandito arms has area 51, I seriously doubt that they have equivlents to IHA--whatever they found is likely to be better, just that they lack facilities to build them


I was saying no one had these exact copies. not that equivlent/superior designs might not be kicking around.

There's nothing in the books to back your claim, don't claim your conjecture as canon.

I cited my claims, when a book says "They were conquered, all copies lost and deleted" followed by "And these guys smuggled out copies", it's not any kind of leap of logic to say that it says only these guys got copies. When the book says "the data was deleted/missing, but may come up elsewhere" and then in a book soon after "And these guys have it, and want to start up the company again", it's not a noncannonical conjecture to say they are the only ones who have it. it's by it's nature exlusionary: anyone who isn't said to have it dosn't have it, until a book says otherwise.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:while you can shoot down missiles, you cannot shoot down nulcear bombs.

Did not even think of this, always assumed you could, but indeed the shoot-em-down tactic is listed under missiles. I guess these are more like grenades, smaller and not plausibly to shoot mid-air?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Nothern Gun sells all kinds of missiles, including long range, nothing that laucnhes them.

Neat, does anyone recall if it's WB 33 or WB 34 and which page where it talks about this? Kinda wondering why CS wouldn't pressure them to stop selling LRMs since it's clearly not for any of their stuff.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Coalition Navy says that Iron Heart Avengers are a group of IHA employees that left port just before the Coalition invaded and successfully smuggled all the plans and designs for IHA equipment with them. It says they are fully capable of restarting the company and producing all designs if they get proper facilities and land based power, however, as of now they have no land base and make a living raiding the CS wherever possible until they can rebuild their facilities somewhere out of the CS's reach.

Isn't there loads of empty space in the City of Brass?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:There is that I guess.

Although I think RUE had introduced the speed-based strike penalties, making missiles nigh-unhittable so I don't know how plausible it is to shoot down missiles with anything now unless you get a natural 20.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:they probablly didn't have enough of a ready set up to do it when they were caught with their pants down.

Probably had plenty of tech but maybe just not enough manpower to use it at that moment. All dat money, maybe guys were on vacation.

Gamer wrote:the AC-29 Air Castle (a Heavy bomber that would never have been built with "liquid fuel" engines giving it the pathetic operational range of WW1 era heavy bombers)

Did WW2 bombers use something besides liquid fuel? Do modern ones?

It may well be that the golden-age design was nuclear but due to shortage of materials or the expense, Iron Heart figured out how to modify it to work on liquid fuel so that they could offer it at a lower price.

Some people also might want to give bombers short range so that whoever is piloting them can't easily take off with them and not come back. Limiting their range creatres more incentive to return the valuable vehicle.

eliakon wrote:Iron Heart only had the baby-nukes that fit on LRMs these do either 4d6x10 or 2d6x100 to a 50' radius depending on if your using RMB or RUE to outfit them. They did NOT have the city smashing nukes of the CS Navy. Thus they were never in the running for MAD.

Dr. Claw's group that opposed Inspector Gadget?

LRMs may not be city-busters but they still seem like very dangerous and annoying threats, even the RMB pre-CWC ones. They allow you to attack without putting yourself at risk, and they close distance very fast giving little time to mobilize. Unless you have someone on-duty to shoot it down you're in trouble. It would be a mad scrample from someone on sensors hopefully catching it and relaying it to a missile-firer.

Not sure if this was posted or made aware of

I believe in rifts Vampires, the CSN went to where the IHA were located in mexico to capture Gail(lead sales that escaped)
but they fled into mexico and not been heard from

Honestly, an explosion that can inflict up to 24000 SDC only having a 50ft blast radius makes me grumble.

Gayle is alive and "well".

See page 104 New Vampire Sourcebook.

Unless I missed something in the Northern Gun Books.