Best resources for the Capital Ships of the RT Universe

[neuronphaser]

Since the latest edition of the game is still missing some of the capital ships of the Robotech universe, and there's really no clear indication of the capital ships book as a coming-anytime-soon sourcebook, I'm hoping to get as much of the canon (or as close to it as possible) information up on the Robotech Saga Wiki. I've been working there for a bit on mecha, episodes, and the comics, so I figured it'd be nice to tackle the capital ship vessels next and give a good, as-accurate-as-possible starting point on them.

I know there's a goodly amount of canon info in the back of the Art of Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles book, but otherwise I'm stuck referring to a couple of small "technical readouts" that have appeared as 1-page splash pages in some of the comics and then falling back to earlier RPG material. I know the older RPG material is often really inaccurate, so what else is out there that can help pin down some of this info?

While it should be canon whenever possible, the Wiki does use "Behind the Scenes" sections to denote secondary canon or non-canon material, so even inaccurate information has its place...

[Seto Kaiba]

Since the latest edition of the game is still missing some of the capital ships of the Robotech universe, and there's really no clear indication of the capital ships book as a coming-anytime-soon sourcebook, [...]

Last anyone heard, plans for the Robotech (2E) Spaceships sourcebook had been scrapped with no apparent intention to ever complete it. (This is possibly because the author who'd been pursuing the project is no longer working with Palladium.)

I'm hoping to get as much of the canon (or as close to it as possible) information up on the Robotech Saga Wiki.

The only sources of official canon information to date are the now-defunct Robotech.com Infopedia and the The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles art book... and even those are not 100% reliable or consistent due to the "moving target" nature of the official canon prior to the last spate of cancellations and false starts and its starting point being someone's rather error-heavy fan fiction.

With the promised OSM-based art books from Udon apparently having been a non-starter, the only other consistently reliable info source would be OSM publications from Japan. The info those offer forms the basis of most of the official ship stats, but it's very light on content for Genesis Climber MOSPEADA's ships and there's practically nothing to be had on the ships from Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross. The publications that really get into the details of ships from the original Macross TV series have a lot of detail, but they're usually in the "bend over" category of MacrossWorld's collectiblity index... so much so that print copies usually come with a price tag in the hundreds of dollars.

While it should be canon whenever possible, the Wiki does use "Behind the Scenes" sections to denote secondary canon or non-canon material, so even inaccurate information has its place...

I've noticed the Wiki seems to use RPG information a lot, even though that's non-canon...

[eliakon]

Since the latest edition of the game is still missing some of the capital ships of the Robotech universe, and there's really no clear indication of the capital ships book as a coming-anytime-soon sourcebook, [...]

Last anyone heard, plans for the Robotech (2E) Spaceships sourcebook had been scrapped with no apparent intention to ever complete it. (This is possibly because the author who'd been pursuing the project is no longer working with Palladium.)

Half right. The book is on hiatus while they look for a writer to work on it. It has not (at this time) been canceled (unless you have some sort of inside source the rest of us don't)

I'm hoping to get as much of the canon (or as close to it as possible) information up on the Robotech Saga Wiki.

The only sources of official canon information to date are the now-defunct Robotech.com Infopedia and the The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles art book... and even those are not 100% reliable or consistent due to the "moving target" nature of the official canon prior to the last spate of cancellations and false starts and its starting point being someone's rather error-heavy fan fiction.

I still don't get how the IP holders own material counts as "someone's rather error-heavy fan fiction"
It may not be the most popular with a certain segment of the fans, but as many of those 'fans' have various axes to grind against the IP for a number of reasons it is hard to take the complaints of non IP holders seriously in the face of the actual IP holders statements.

With the promised OSM-based art books from Udon apparently having been a non-starter, the only other consistently reliable info source would be OSM publications from Japan. The info those offer forms the basis of most of the official ship stats, but it's very light on content for Genesis Climber MOSPEADA's ships and there's practically nothing to be had on the ships from Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross. The publications that really get into the details of ships from the original Macross TV series have a lot of detail, but they're usually in the "bend over" category of MacrossWorld's collectiblity index... so much so that print copies usually come with a price tag in the hundreds of dollars.

If your fine with using the Japanese anime that were uses as the starting point for writing the Robotech material then there are scans of it available on line.

While it should be canon whenever possible, the Wiki does use "Behind the Scenes" sections to denote secondary canon or non-canon material, so even inaccurate information has its place...

I've noticed the Wiki seems to use RPG information a lot, even though that's non-canon...

Only to you Seto. Since HG has said that it is considered a secondary canon source then it sort of is a secondary canon source. It may come as a shock but the holders of an Intellectual Property's rights get to define what is and is not part of those rights. The fans may disagree of course, but it is not their decision.


My recommendation would be to use the RT1 material as a guide line, and then compare the RT1 and RT2 books where things have been reprinted to see what the general changes are. This will get you a ballpark figure to work with.
And since in most cases Capital Ships are going to be massive scenery that fights other Capital Ships it should work out pretty well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

RT2 TSC hardcover, the macross era book, the SC/master era book, & New Gen: Gen. pits. Have starships in them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Half right. The book is on hiatus while they look for a writer to work on it. It has not (at this time) been canceled (unless you have some sort of inside source the rest of us don't)

Everybody's been saying "canceled" since the announcement it was dropped back in like 2012... wasn't aware anyone had said they were still planning to make it.

I still don't get how the IP holders own material counts as "someone's rather error-heavy fan fiction"

The information that the Infopedia was built from was supplied by the uRRG, which openly disclaims its status as a fanfic..

Sadly, the information given to Harmony Gold was not purely OSM. It contained a number of fan theories, guesses, and errors that went uncaught when the Infopedia was drafted. (From a researcher/translator perspective, it's kind of a mess... but we can discuss the particulars via PM if you wish.)

If your fine with using the Japanese anime that were uses as the starting point for writing the Robotech material then there are scans of it available on line.

Quite a few of the older publications to which I refer do not have readily available scans... particularly those for Southern Cross. (I suspect that's mainly because they're magazine features rather than actual art books.)

Only to you Seto. Since HG has said that it is considered a secondary canon source then it sort of is a secondary canon source. It may come as a shock but the holders of an Intellectual Property's rights get to define what is and is not part of those rights. The fans may disagree of course, but it is not their decision.

Source? Last time anyone asked Tommy Yune about Robotech and canon, the only canon sources identified were the original series, Shadow Chronicles, and Prelude, with the Wildstorm comics and video games tenuously pseudocanon. There's some contradiction between the RPG and official stats, and the Infopedia never did adopt the RPG's naming conventions or backstory for anything.

Some fans often mistake the Robotech.com FAQ's statements about secondary continuity for a canon policy... but that refers only to the series taking primacy in the event of a story detail-related conflict. Other fans often insist the RPG is its own canon... separate from the official canon or the fan-defined "McKinneyverse".

[neuronphaser]

Thanks for the info!

I've noticed the Wiki seems to use RPG information a lot, even though that's non-canon...

Yeah, that's actually a sticking point at the moment. Once I received some clarity on that at the Wiki's forums from the folks running the site, it seems like the plan is to use the RPG's designations for weaponry load-outs only when there isn't another more directly HG-approved source to go by. So for now, a lot of the weapon listings from the RPGs are a-okay as long as they jive with Art of the Shadow Chronicles and the more recent comics.

While it's anyone's guess how thoroughly HG vets the RPG information, the fact is that they are at least theoretically given the thumbs-up, and you'll note that the weapon listings from The Macross Saga Sourcebook and Robotech RPG Tactics don't show any glaring contradictions (at least, not that I've found yet), so...yeah. That's kinda where we're at. It's a wiki, so if anything more official were to come out, it'd be easy enough for myself or any of the editors to hop on it and update. Adding more source references and stuff like that is a big priority, at the moment.

[Seto Kaiba]

I've noticed the Wiki seems to use RPG information a lot, even though that's non-canon...

Yeah, that's actually a sticking point at the moment. Once I received some clarity on that at the Wiki's forums from the folks running the site, it seems like the plan is to use the RPG's designations for weaponry load-outs only when there isn't another more directly HG-approved source to go by.

Seems like a reasonably sound approach.

While it's anyone's guess how thoroughly HG vets the RPG information, the fact is that they are at least theoretically given the thumbs-up, and you'll note that the weapon listings from The Macross Saga Sourcebook and Robotech RPG Tactics don't show any glaring contradictions (at least, not that I've found yet), so...yeah. That's kinda where we're at.

There are actually a couple areas where the Macross Saga sourcebook contradicts the official stats, and a couple more where those official stats are out in left field. Of course, you could say the same of pretty much any book in the 2nd Edition, though we're miles ahead of where we were in 1st Edition in terms of the number and severity of the digressions.

To give a pair of related examples... there are actually no mini-missiles in the official write-ups. The RPG reclassifies several short-range missiles as mini-missiles, probably for balance reasons. This poses an unusual problem in that there are two different weapons using the same missile, but it gets classified two different ways. On the "MLOP" (which is obviously an accidental copypasta of the DYRL? VF-1's UUM-7 pod) it's listed as a mini-missile, but that same missile used in the FAST packs is a short-range missile. The VF-1R write-up adds a couple mini-missile launchers to the VF-1 that aren't in the canon stats too.

[kb001]

Thanks for the info!

I've noticed the Wiki seems to use RPG information a lot, even though that's non-canon...

Yeah, that's actually a sticking point at the moment. Once I received some clarity on that at the Wiki's forums from the folks running the site, it seems like the plan is to use the RPG's designations for weaponry load-outs only when there isn't another more directly HG-approved source to go by. So for now, a lot of the weapon listings from the RPGs are a-okay as long as they jive with Art of the Shadow Chronicles and the more recent comics.

While it's anyone's guess how thoroughly HG vets the RPG information, the fact is that they are at least theoretically given the thumbs-up, and you'll note that the weapon listings from The Macross Saga Sourcebook and Robotech RPG Tactics don't show any glaring contradictions (at least, not that I've found yet), so...yeah. That's kinda where we're at. It's a wiki, so if anything more official were to come out, it'd be easy enough for myself or any of the editors to hop on it and update. Adding more source references and stuff like that is a big priority, at the moment.

have ever looked at this site http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/ReferenceGuide.html it does not have MD or SD yet has weapon output in Joules and you can try to use that as a damage base sort of for ever 1 mega-joule 1-2 point MD or something of that range. The also have a tremendous amount of detailed information on all things, I personally love the site as they (before updates stopped) had lots of history about weapon, ship, tech and so on developmental and usage history. I like it for that and they had a few well done fan fic books. Check it out and see what you think, I don't think it would be a total waste of your time, if only for the interest in what they have to offer you as an educational basis. take it light --KB

[neuronphaser]

have ever looked at this site http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/ReferenceGuide.html it does not have MD or SD yet has weapon output in Joules and you can try to use that as a damage base sort of for ever 1 mega-joule 1-2 point MD or something of that range. The also have a tremendous amount of detailed information on all things, I personally love the site as they (before updates stopped) had lots of history about weapon, ship, tech and so on developmental and usage history. I like it for that and they had a few well done fan fic books. Check it out and see what you think, I don't think it would be a total waste of your time, if only for the interest in what they have to offer you as an educational basis. take it light --KB

Oh yeah, I'm familiar with that site. It's great!

While the Wiki's goal is to be a great source of info, we do strive for getting things correct with regard to canon and unfortunately things at that level of detail - Joules, for instance - haven't been confirmed, so we can't go that far.

That said, the site does have a considerable amount of very useful information.

[Seto Kaiba]

have ever looked at this site http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/ReferenceGuide.html it does not have MD or SD yet has weapon output in Joules and you can try to use that as a damage base sort of for ever 1 mega-joule 1-2 point MD or something of that range. The also have a tremendous amount of detailed information on all things, [...]

Eh... I know what that site wants to call itself, but it's not a reference guide to Robotech. It's a fanfic.

While the uRRG does have a large amount of information, its usefulness as a Robotech reference site is essentially zero as its purpose was not to document the official Robotech setting. It was created to be a companion to their fan fiction series, which deviates heavily from Robotech proper. As a result, the overwhelming majority of its content is the invention of the project's authors with no actual basis in Robotech or the Japanese source material.[sup]1[/sup] The material that does have a basis in the original source material or Robotech contains many inaccuracies[sup]2[/sup], possibly as a result of translation of transposition errors, and some material that doesn't even belong to Robotech[sup]3[/sup].

While the Wiki's goal is to be a great source of info, we do strive for getting things correct with regard to canon and unfortunately things at that level of detail - Joules, for instance - haven't been confirmed, so we can't go that far.

All that data is purely the invention of the uRRG's writers, so a confirmation won't be forthcoming I'm afraid.




1. Too many textual examples to count, but the "VF-7 Sylphid Veritech", "Marathon-class transport", "SF-2A Hunter" etc. are good examples of whole articles with no basis in Robotech or the OSM. Practically everything in the Masters Saga entries is in the "totally fabricated" category, as they had pretty much NOTHING to go on.

2. Examples include the Spartas's big gun being identified as a smoothbore cannon or ion gun instead of the laser the series refers to it as multiple times, dozens of examples of incorrect physical dimensions such as on the Alpha and Beta, New Gen ships, etc., with some examples being severe enough to be either physically impossible (the cited caliber of the Alpha's gun barrels) or make ships and mecha several times their actual size (e.g. the Ikazuchi).

3. The "Masamune" and "Hunter" are Macross concept art designs and never appear in animation. The VT-1 Super Ostrich, VF-1 Strike Valkyrie, RC-4E Rabbit, and Golg Gant Charts are from Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which has no connection with Robotech. The VF-4 Lightning is from Macross Flashback 2012, and has no connection with Robotech. The Hargun, MODAT, Garland, and Tivar II are from Megazone 23 and have no connection with Robotech (anymore). The Cougar, Boxer, Jaguar, and Tiger are MOSPEADA concept designs and similarly have no connection to Robotech.

[ShadowLogan]

1. Too many textual examples to count, but the "VF-7 Sylphid Veritech", "Marathon-class transport", "SF-2A Hunter" etc. are good examples of whole articles with no basis in Robotech or the OSM. Practically everything in the Masters Saga entries is in the "totally fabricated" category, as they had pretty much NOTHING to go on.

Re: The "VF-7 Sylphid Veritech". This is not exactly correct to characterize it the whole article with no basis in Robotech since it is Robotech's own dialogue cues over multiple episodes can be interpreted to connect the design to being a "veritech fighter" that are used as the basis for calling it a Veritech (aspects of the VF-7 article I would agree are fabricated w/o support from the dialogue or show, ex: wrist guns). It is true that the "Veritech" in this case does not transform in the animation (no justifiable need to IMHO) and the only thing to suggest transformation is wing depiction (3 in animation, 2 of which in RPG are used to justify different models), that doesn't change the fact that dialogue cues exist over multiple episodes that can be interpreted as calling it a "veritech" though.

The Hargun, MODAT, Garland, and Tivar II are from Megazone 23 and have no connection with Robotech (anymore).

It has no connection with current Robotech Canon you mean. The story itself (due to comic portrail in the Academy Comic run as "Robotech: The Movie") pushes it into Extended Continuity per the old RT.com Bibliography. It is still connected to Robotech as a matter of history.

[drewkitty ~..~]

have ever looked at this site http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/ReferenceGuide.html it does not have MD or SD yet has weapon output in Joules and you can try to use that as a damage base sort of for ever 1 mega-joule 1-2 point MD or something of that range. The also have a tremendous amount of detailed information on all things, [...]

Eh... I know what that site wants to call itself, but it's not a reference guide to Robotech. It's a fanfic.

...snip[/size]

Agrees, the site as a whole is a fan fic. There are Smallcraft mentioned on the sit that are not in Robotech at all. Noteably the Zentradie Gunship. It is, far as I know only depicted in the 'Love, Do you Remember?' movie.

[Seto Kaiba]

Re: The "VF-7 Sylphid Veritech". This is not exactly correct to characterize it the whole article with no basis in Robotech since it is Robotech's own dialogue cues over multiple episodes can be interpreted to connect the design to being a "veritech fighter" [...]

An argument that has been rejected by Harmony Gold's creative staff... so really, it IS without basis in Robotech if you're talking official setting, but I guess it could technically fall under "contradicts Robotech" too if you want to take a broader view (on the basis of its designation overlapping the Beta's and the Sylphid being a nonvariable fighter).

It has no connection with current Robotech Canon you mean.

With what is officially Robotech, yes.

(Even Macek disowned the movie... and while the RT.com Bibliography mentions the comic version, there is the contradictory line by McKeever that the old comics are not part of Robotech from his SSL interview in '06.)

[ShadowLogan]

Noteably the Zentradie Gunship. It is, far as I know only depicted in the 'Love, Do you Remember?' movie.

Rineunadou Lojmeuean class Monitor?

The Gunship is the vessel Khyron commands in Ep36 in his attack on the SDF-1/SDF-2/New Macross City, it is his base of operations the episode before (mostly overgrown by vegetation), and is also seen in Ep27 "Force of Arms". So it isn't from the Macross movie unless you are thinking of something else.

An argument that has been rejected by Harmony Gold's creative staff... so really, it IS without basis in Robotech if you're talking official setting, but I guess it could technically fall under "contradicts Robotech" too if you want to take a broader view (on the basis of its designation overlapping the Beta's and the Sylphid being a nonvariable fighter).

Actually it does have a basis in Robotech dialogue (technically speaking) and really doesn't fall under the internal contradiction clause (dialogue doesn't contradict it like say the AGAC's multiple names for its battloid mode).

The VF-7 slot overlap a minor issue at best and hardly worth bringing up since it can be easily fixed given the Beta is in the -12 slot, the Spartas is the VHT-2 slot by uRRG thinking (instead of the VF-7/9 and VHT-1 slots HG uses respectively). So all that is required in the HG/Yune-verse is to account for the Sylphid in the designation scheme then? Done as you can choose between the VF-2 or VF-3 which are undefined, unless one wants more complicated changes. Working out a transformation is going to be harder to solve than this issue, if only to decide how it transforms (Go-Bot and Transformers toys from the mid 80s had at least 4 different takes for the "Space Shuttle" and other over laping aircraft, so there are bound to be multiple ways to get it to transform) and what it is going to look like ("agile" like VF-1/10, "bulky" VF-6/7/9, "oddly laid out" like the VF-8, or even non-traditional "battloid" like Cyclone/Silverback).

That HG wants to ignore it (or avoid the work on it) could be in part due to its connection with TRM-saga and "bias" against said saga by HG.

(Even Macek disowned the movie... and while the RT.com Bibliography mentions the comic version, there is the contradictory line by McKeever that the old comics are not part of Robotech from his SSL interview in '06.)

I'm aware they disowned the movie after the test screening. Still from a historical perspective it is officially connected to Robotech in ways that SDF:DYRL (or Flashback 2012) has never been and isn't going to change (likely) anytime soon. It would be like claiming "Dwarf Planets" Pluto and Ceres have never been considered full planets before historically speaking.

[Seto Kaiba]

Noteably the Zentradie Gunship. It is, far as I know only depicted in the 'Love, Do you Remember?' movie.

Rineunadou Lojmeuean class Monitor?

Pretty sure he means the Golg Gants Charts attack craft from Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which the uRRG calls the "ZentCom1 Gunship".

That one was a new design Studio Nue produced for Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

Actually it does have a basis in Robotech dialogue (technically speaking) and really doesn't fall under the internal contradiction clause (dialogue doesn't contradict it like say the AGAC's multiple names for its battloid mode).

Please recall that we're talking about official canon here, which does not presume the show's content to be infallible and occasionally does reject elements of dialog or animation as errors. Harmony Gold has considered, and refuted, the "Sylphid Veritech"... so there isn't an evidentiary basis for it in official canon Robotech, and it never did have a basis in the Japanese source material.

As we're talking the reliability of resources WRT the official canon, whether or not you think the Sylphid Veritech could work is irrelevant... that it isn't official is literally all that matters.

[ShadowLogan]

Please recall that we're talking about official canon here, which does not presume the show's content to be infallible and occasionally does reject elements of dialog or animation as errors. Harmony Gold has considered, and refuted, the "Sylphid Veritech"... so there isn't an evidentiary basis for it in official canon Robotech, and it never did have a basis in the Japanese source material.

As we're talking the reliability of resources WRT the official canon, whether or not you think the Sylphid Veritech could work is irrelevant... that it isn't official is literally all that matters.

The canon/official take though is hardly set in stone at this point though and can be changed if HG wanted to as the show does provide them the leeway (prior to "Invasion" comic, the Beta entry mentions the VF-5 Condor, but was changed to Condor Battloid and SF-5. The Beta entry was also originally VF-12, now it is VF-9 for the 2040s version, etc).

I agree the uRRG is hardly a reliable source. All I am saying is that the Slyphid is not a complete fabrication on their part (HG"s highest order of canon, "85ep animation" allows for it) nor is the RT:TUS mecha and the Centaur VHT (though here they make an exception to allow it) since they also have real official (though historical if not current "canon") tangible links to Robotech, something that their use of FB2012/DYRL lacks (and using it would qualify as a complete fabrication).

[Seto Kaiba]

The canon/official take though is hardly set in stone at this point though and can be changed [...]

Until it does change, that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the subject.

I agree the uRRG is hardly a reliable source. [...]

That's the only relevant point: it isn't reliable. The rest is just semantic arguments over how to classify its unreliability.

[jaymz]

Spoiler:

Since the latest edition of the game is still missing some of the capital ships of the Robotech universe, and there's really no clear indication of the capital ships book as a coming-anytime-soon sourcebook, I'm hoping to get as much of the canon (or as close to it as possible) information up on the Robotech Saga Wiki. I've been working there for a bit on mecha, episodes, and the comics, so I figured it'd be nice to tackle the capital ship vessels next and give a good, as-accurate-as-possible starting point on them.

I know there's a goodly amount of canon info in the back of the Art of Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles book, but otherwise I'm stuck referring to a couple of small "technical readouts" that have appeared as 1-page splash pages in some of the comics and then falling back to earlier RPG material. I know the older RPG material is often really inaccurate, so what else is out there that can help pin down some of this info?

While it should be canon whenever possible, the Wiki does use "Behind the Scenes" sections to denote secondary canon or non-canon material, so even inaccurate information has its place...

Take all materials you can find and then pear it down to what you think works best.

My sources?

TV Series
Macross Mecha Manual
Macross Compendium
Long discussions with those who are more knowledgeable on the subject matter.
HG Infopedia
uRRG
RPG books
Whatever else is left

That is how I went through and did all my statistical rewrites of everything I;ve done so far.

[wilenburg]

it is to bad that steelfalcon is not working any more they had one of the best ones in the third invid war. if you can find it they had a few ships. Robotech source books have been lacking in that the best one from official publish books is the old zentraedi source book. just increase some of the stats. if you want the sdf-3 robotech sentinels book.

[taalismn]

That's the pity...the Southern Cross capital ship fleet has the most screen time in actual combat* in the whole Robotech Saga, yet all we get are the shuttles(and we're lucky, in the new edition RPG to get the Tristar).

*In Macross, we only see the SDF-1, with its plot shields, while the ARMDs and Oberths get wasted at the beginning and during the Rain of Death. The New Generation/MOSPEAD arc sees, with one exception, the UEEF fleet is used in bookend battles where they're getting zerg-rushed.

[jaymz]

You guys are welcome to use my wiki.....