PLEASE POST REVIEWS ON RPG.NET

[Spinachcat]

I am concerned about Palladium's lack of positive visibility in the RPG community. There is little I can do to promote Palladium to the wider offline RPG community, but I believe by talking about PB games online, we as PB gamers and PB fans can introduce new eyeballs to PB games.

One of the MAJOR sources of promotion is game reviews, and regardless of opinions about RPG.net, they are the largest RPG online community and they post RPG reviews every week. Thus, that's the prime place to speak to eyeballs.

There are many other RPG forums as well, including PB's own. Once you write a review, there's no reason you shouldn't post it everywhere - ENworld, Dragonsfoot, RPGgeek, here!, etc.

I am going to write at least one detailed review of a PB product in 2016 and post it around the web (probably Mechanoids 'cuz they can buy it PDF on DriveThru). If 11 of you join me, that's 1 PB review on RPG.net each month. If 50 of you join me, that's 1 PB review each week!!

I am not talking about some PR puff piece. If you look up my previous reviews on RPG.net, you can see that I am happy to discuss the pros, the cons, the whys and the wheres, making it clear what I liked, what I didn't, what worked, what needs work, what type of gamers might be best served by buying that product. AKA, a fair, balanced, honest review.

Will you write just one review of your favorite PB book next year?

PB fans, rally to my banner!!!

[Shawn Merrow]

I wrote reviews for them in the past, even getting a few free books for review purpose. I got tired of constant negativity on the site as more and more subjects were about things to hate. The last straw was being flamed by a mod and my complaint being completely ignored by the admins. I want nothing to do with that site.

[rosco60559]

Shawn were you a free lancer for pb at the time you did the review? Now before I get accused of anything, if they noticed you're on the payroll that might have got the flames rolling. If I'm looking for a review the best ones are usually from those whose pay does not come from the company whose product is being reviewed. Let's face it if you reviewed a pb product there and it was negative it would get back to pb and you might not get much work till the review was updated to the more positive.

[Steve Dubya]

If you aren't fond of RPG.net (and there are definitely reasons not to be), I would recommend checking out RPGGeek, BoardGameGeek's RPG-focused sister site. RPGGeek is a fantastically welcoming community and won Gold for Best Website for the 2014 ENnies.

Regardless of where they get posted, I believe that Spinachcat's point of getting more current material reviewed where others might notice would help to get some exposure for Palladium's gamelines.

[Kryptt]

Thing is, why are the reviews on rpg.net negative? Obviously there's a reason why so many rpg players troll anything PB. I don't see this kind of hate with other rpg games. I tried out the RT rpg and after playing for several weeks I've come to the conclusion that it needs a rehaul of the rules, better rules organization and an index in the back of the book if Kev and crew insist on placing rules all over without any thought to ease new players into the game. Then there's the actual book itself. No color art, it has a textbook feel to it and the rules themselves are not user friendly to noobs. If I didn't have rpg books from FFG, WotC and the battletech rpg books I might not be so hard on PB's presentation... But since other publishers use modern digital tools PB loses major points for its lackluster quality. It can use some definite improvement. The books themselves could benefit from hiring trained artists. There is so much wrong with the rules and book presentation that it's extremely difficult to write anything positive about it.

I will say this. I do agree with Kevin that rpg games should be about having fun with your friends and not letting the rules get in the way. However it does come off as an excuse for poor writing structure. I'd love to see all PB books look like the rrt rule book. In color and examples of how the rules work.

So in conclusion I thought about doing it myself in the past but in my gaming experience with RRT, DR, CE, and the RT rpg I personally have more negatives than positives. Hence why I've yet to post it on rpg.net. Although I might as well since I have it on file. I'll post a link when I do but be warned its going to be brutally honest and some here might report me for even posting the link. I have to say I've never dealt with this type of problem were I was so dissatisfied with a game and company.

Edit: I've since stopped playing any PB rpg and miniatures games since my group has lost interest in it. Instead we're moving back to dnd and some of the FFG rpg games. For now though with Star Wars coming out soon we're more into playing X wing with its well balanced system.

[Rallan]

They're just negative because they're negative. There isn't some evil conspiracy or mean jerkface RPG.net hivemind that's out to get Palladium Books, and there is no community of dastardly haters that we need to "balance".

Also, invading RPG.net in an organised campaign to game the average review scores? Really? It's almost like you want to live up to the bad reputation Palladium fans have got over there.

[Kryptt]

Also, invading RPG.net in an organised campaign to game the average review scores? Really? It's almost like you want to live up to the bad reputation Palladium fans have got over there.

Thank you I forgot to advise that to my post.

Like I said there's a reason for all the negativity besides "there're just negative to be negative".

[Tiree]

If I was going to review the Robotech Line, I'd have decent to low scores for RT: TSC. Slightly better for Macross Saga, and even slightly better for Masters Saga. Then it would go abysmally low for New Generation and Genesis Pits. Then it would go completely south on UEEF Marines. If they had negatives, I'd probably put UEEF Marines there. Even though I do believe the art for these books has improved consistently throughout.

I'm generally not impressed with the work that has happened either on the writing or editing of these books.

[Shawn Merrow]

Shawn were you a free lancer for pb at the time you did the review? Now before I get accused of anything, if they noticed you're on the payroll that might have got the flames rolling. If I'm looking for a review the best ones are usually from those whose pay does not come from the company whose product is being reviewed. Let's face it if you reviewed a pb product there and it was negative it would get back to pb and you might not get much work till the review was updated to the more positive.

It was before I worked with them. The flame had nothing to do with a review but a thread in the message board where a mod was flaming people. A mod with a long history of that. I got tired of the site not just because of flames over Palladium Books but an overall very hostile attitude. If you played the wrong game you get flamed. If you played the wrong way you get flamed. I went from checking the site every day to a few times a month as the place was more frustrating then fun. The last time I posted there was when a thread was created after I stopped doing the FanFaq expecting me to come there to trash Kevin. I disappointed them by not giving them the drama they wanted by pointing out it was due to health. I see no point visiting a message board that is annoying as I have better things to do with my time.

[auyl]

I agree with Shawn on this. I've seen individuals on that site that are great on other forums but trolls on rpg.net. I use the site to try and promote my company but am involved very little since I've been unnecessarily burned in the past.

[Glistam]

From what I've always heard, rpg.net seems like the absolute worst place to go on the internet if you're a fan of Palladium Books. I have never heard anything good come about from going there. I don't see how going there and writing/posting reviews will accomplish anything except re-ignite old flame wars.

[palladiumjunkie]

It may have been the worst place to go for Palladium defenders 5-15 years ago, but that boat has sailed. The forums are now well moderated, and they crack down on that kind of stuff fairly quickly. Palladium is discussed over there now, without the flame wars that were being fanned by both sides. Don't expect the truth to not be discussed, though, as there are a lot of truths about Palladium that don't necessarily endear the company to most fans.

Anyway, I voted no, because I am not interested in writing reviews.

-Chris

[Rallan]

From what I've always heard, rpg.net seems like the absolute worst place to go on the internet if you're a fan of Palladium Books. I have never heard anything good come about from going there. I don't see how going there and writing/posting reviews will accomplish anything except re-ignite old flame wars.

But what good things would they say? Palladium's rules are old (and clunky, at least in the eyes of people who mess around with a lot of different RPG systems). Palladium's layout and editing are substandard. Palladium's RPG lines are all old so there's not really anything new to talk about. And Palladium the company has had a few PR issues over the years (most recently with their handling of the Robotech miniatures wargame).

I'm honestly not surprised that the broader RPG community doesn't have much to say about Palladium Books, or that some of what little they do say is unflattering.

[Tiree]

First thing I would mention is that they published a brand new book, and put it up in PDF format as well.

I'm in utter and complete shock on this one...

[Glistam]

From what I've always heard, rpg.net seems like the absolute worst place to go on the internet if you're a fan of Palladium Books. I have never heard anything good come about from going there. I don't see how going there and writing/posting reviews will accomplish anything except re-ignite old flame wars.

But what good things would they say? Palladium's rules are old (and clunky, at least in the eyes of people who mess around with a lot of different RPG systems). Palladium's layout and editing are substandard. Palladium's RPG lines are all old so there's not really anything new to talk about. And Palladium the company has had a few PR issues over the years (most recently with their handling of the Robotech miniatures wargame).

I'm honestly not surprised that the broader RPG community doesn't have much to say about Palladium Books, or that some of what little they do say is unflattering.

Yes, it's the same tired old arguments over and over. Hence why nothing good comes from discussing it, especially on a forum where they're well-backed by their peers and their negativity can be reinforced. Palladium is not the game system for everyone - I don't care that it's not for someone else, nor why they believe they're justified in feeling that way, and I'm not interested in having an argument about it because neither of us will change the other's minds.

[auyl]

In order to change rpg.net guests attitudes on PB they need to have PB itself start addressing issues and changing people's attitudes. We as fans can argue with them all we want but unless the company itself steps in, I'm afraid not much will change.

[Jerell]

Thing is, why are the reviews on rpg.net negative? Obviously there's a reason why so many rpg players troll anything PB. I don't see this kind of hate with other rpg games.

My experience over the years has been quite the opposite with a few games. I can remember lots of hate when the newest D&D edition rolled out. There are quite a few, by no means all, but a good number of gamers that have their one favorite system and view everything else as garbage. I remember having a long discussion about this years ago on the Kenzer and Co. forums. I played both editions of Hackmaster (The latest edition being my favorite fantasy RPG rule set) for a while, and I can tell you people were vocal for a while about what they thought of that game, some loved it, others hated it, calling it a 'joke game.' Granted I personally don't think a lot of the detractors really ever seriously played it. On the other side, I remember quite a few HM players having nothing but bad things to say about D&Ds latest editions, same with a group of Pathfinder players that were always up at my FLGS when I used to go play 40k every week. And a fair portion of the large D&D crew there were also negative on some form of Vampire related game (I don't recall which). There is a lot of hate between certain people for different systems for whatever reason. I find those to be the same people that can be very protective of their one chosen system, but will slam anything different. Not all people protective of a system are like that either, but the ones who flame seem to have a chosen system a good deal of the time. Animosity between war gamers and RPG players comes out a lot less than it used to thankfully, but there's a little still out there. On the subject of war gamers, there's a lot GW hate out there too. In fact I'd say GW has haters out there not unlike PB. All I can say is haters, are gonna hate, whatever their reasoning, valid or no.

There was an excellent article in KODT years ago covering this gamer issue. That's not to say there aren't valid points and critiques, but I have found a lot of what I've considered unjustified hate for different games through the years. PB is not alone in this.

[Dog_O_War]

I don't think it's worth advertising until the quality improves.

For a comparative example, when WotC had D&D 3.x and their open-gaming license, tons of third-parties produced tons of products for D&D.

But "tons of products" is not a talking point, because the majority of them were utter garbage. There were some true gems in there, but that is because those particular third-party items were of true quality. I'm not talking about glossy pages or "gud lootz" either; I'm talking about things that adhered to the tenants of what that game was about, rich histories, and cool, unique classes.

But as far as Palladium books is concerned, they're missing some good elements and instead focusing on bad ones. Rich history? Sure, yep - I won't argue that point. But unique classes? Most of the time (at least, from my heavily Rifts-focused viewpoint) about the only real difference between some classes is that one gets a slightly different skill-set. It's like, all the cars in the lot are the same, but because they have different colours and maybe one or two have AC or power windows, they've given each one a different name.

And of course, the biggest negative draw here is the rules offered with very very minor changes across the booklines; these rules are not laid out well, or coherently for that matter. There are tons of holes and loopholes. That does not make for a good game.

That's two letters in a three-letter acronym that have major negatives associated with it; your Role is more often than not a different shade of the same car, and the Game does not work properly and requires a rules-mechanic to even get the thing started. That lends itself to less Playing in the end.

So in conclusion, PB should try and fix the problems it has, instead of taking a dying company-approach to the future with "new" stuff, like fluff text tied to mechanically the same game-product or options that have been available since the 1990s (re: pdfs).

[Spinachcat]

HOLY MISCOMMUNICATION BATMAN!!!

I am going to address a bunch of issues individually, but in the spirit of TL,DR, here are my bullet points:

1) Reviews are posted on the FRONT page of RPG.net. There is no need for you to be involved in their forums. As a RPG.net reviewer, you NEVER have to engage with anyone on RPG.net. N-E-V-E-R.

2) RPG.net is the biggest RPG forum. If you are taking the time to write, then why deny yourself the biggest audience? If you absolutely won't post there, then please check out OTHER forums. How about posting on Amazon? How about on DriveThruRPG?

3) Palladium's games did SOMETHING to make you a fan of one or more of their games. That same game is still good enough to interest someone else. Stop worrying about the downsides of PB. Be honest about what bugs you, but something about a PB game got you super excited to be a fan enough to hang around these forums. SHARE THAT!

I want nothing to do with that site.

I don't blame you and I know what you're talking about, but Obi-Shawn Kenobi, we need your writing skills!! RPG.net forums can be a cesspool, but this is just about posting reviews. It's my contention that most of the review audience are lurkers, not posters. The silent majority are our target, not any of the angry regulars.

Also, invading RPG.net in an organised campaign to game the average review scores? Really? It's almost like you want to live up to the bad reputation Palladium fans have got over there.

Please re-read my original post. This has NOTHING to do with gaming the average review scores.
First, there are so few reviews of any PB books. Second, I am asking for HONEST reviews, not PR fluff pieces.

There is tremendous power in honest reviews.

I'm generally not impressed with the work that has happened either on the writing or editing of these books.

What Palladium game or book did impress you? Write about that one.

From what I've always heard, rpg.net seems like the absolute worst place to go on the internet if you're a fan of Palladium Books. I have never heard anything good come about from going there. I don't see how going there and writing/posting reviews will accomplish anything except re-ignite old flame wars.

There are LOTS of Palladium fans at RPG.net. Many are lurkers. Many are posters who talk LOTS about how they port over PB settings to their favorite systems. RPG.net is the biggest space with the most eyeballs. Most importantly, RPG.net reviews are big and bold on the front page, not hidden like other sites.

Again, I am NOT talking about anyone subjecting themselves to RPG.net's forums. Posting reviews is just posting reviews. You write it, you submit it, and you are notified when they post it. You never have to involve yourself with their forums.

And if our honest reviews ignite 2,000 flame wars? So what? Let the interwebs burn.

Palladium is not the game system for everyone - I don't care that it's not for someone else, nor why they believe they're justified in feeling that way, and I'm not interested in having an argument about it because neither of us will change the other's minds.

No game is for everyone, but there is a reason you play one or more Palladium games. Reviews are about sharing that reason. Maybe somebody reading the review may also be sparked by the reason that drew you.

In order to change rpg.net guests attitudes on PB they need to have PB itself start addressing issues and changing people's attitudes. We as fans can argue with them all we want but unless the company itself steps in, I'm afraid not much will change.

We can't change PB. PB is PB, but Kevin & crew are still publishing after 34 years. That's nothing to sneeze at. Also, reviews aren't about changing minds about PB. Reviews are about discussing a book or game for the virtues of that one book.

Our ONLY goal is to introduce new gamers to our favorite PB books. What gamers do after reading our reviews is beyond our control.

There are quite a few, by no means all, but a good number of gamers that have their one favorite system and view everything else as garbage.

You are right, but those people are NOT our audience. We want to reach gamers who play lots of different RPGs who may be open to trying something new. I suspect the "I only play X" people don't read reviews about other games.

I don't think it's worth advertising until the quality improves.

The quality has been enough to draw all the people posting here, and the quality has been enough to sell lots of books for 34 years. Obviously, there is something in PB's books that makes many gamers excited enough to trade money for PB's books AS-IS. It's that magical something that I am asking people to write about.

[Dog_O_War]

I don't think it's worth advertising until the quality improves.

The quality has been enough to draw all the people posting here, and the quality has been enough to sell lots of books for 34 years. Obviously, there is something in PB's books that makes many gamers excited enough to trade money for PB's books AS-IS. It's that magical something that I am asking people to write about.

First, I want to point out that what I do not want is for new people to otherwise "discover" the major negatives associated with this product; it's not a defunct product like 1st Edition D&D, where you're on an "as-is" basis if you buy it - this is an active product.

What this means is that this decades-old game is very hard to market to new blood without direct guidance; someone who has been playing it for years typically needs to show the newbies the failings of the books and their play-tested fixes for these problems, because simply presenting the product "as-is" has as much of a draw as 1st Edition D&D - it's not exactly flying off the shelves.

At least, not in my experience, which isn't insignificant. The largest gaming and hobby shop in my city (arguably my province - for reference, it's called the Sentry Box) has had the same exact collection of Rifts books for a decade now. I know this because I've been going there for almost two decades, check every time I go in, and have noted that nothing has changed in that time-period. Every once in a while they get some new books in (typically when a new book is released), but as of Northern Gun II, they haven't ordered anything new. I know this because I have asked; I don't own a copy of NG II because this store hasn't ordered any.

And I've checked other hobby shops as well; they mostly only carry new and popular RPG books. As a side-note; I don't want to order directly because I want to support this store - it really is a great store and I'd hate to see it fall victim to online sales. Plus I like to inspect the products that I buy.

What does all this boil down to? That the quality of yesterday is not good enough today.

[Tiree]

I'm generally not impressed with the work that has happened either on the writing or editing of these books.

What Palladium game or book did impress you? Write about that one.

To dove tail onto Dog_O_War, the only books I could do that to would be the books back in the day... like early 90's and late 80's.

About the only thing I can say positively over the decades I have been buying Palladium product, is that the Art Production has gone up.

But in order to hook new blood, you need to review new books. I can't honestly provide a good review of the new releases, nor do I feel comfortable reviewing anything other than Robotech. And with Robotech, I am comfortable in reviewing, they wouldn't be pretty or positive towards the company.

[Shawn Merrow]

I want nothing to do with that site.

I don't blame you and I know what you're talking about, but Obi-Shawn Kenobi, we need your writing skills!! RPG.net forums can be a cesspool, but this is just about posting reviews. It's my contention that most of the review audience are lurkers, not posters. The silent majority are our target, not any of the angry regulars.

I have a long policy to stay away from there that but will start posting reviews to theRPGsite.

[Rallan]

Spina, your'e asking as many people as possible to go over and give good reviews to products that you've just admitted don't have many reviews. You've just said that you want to do it so Palladium's stuff will have lots of positive reviews and higher review scores. You've just said that you want to do it because you don't like the current review scores and want them changed.

How is that not gaming the system?

Also, what do you think will happen if some folks notice that a bunch of years-old Palladium products are suddenly getting a whole lot of nice reviews, then does a little homework because they're bored and finds your thread here on All Things Palladium Books where you're putting out a call to arms to oppose RPG.net's supposedly terrible anti-Palladium bias?

Also also, if you really wanted "fair" reviews and not overwhelmingly positive reviews, why are you making a thread about it here instead of asking RPG.net's existing community what they think about Palladium's stuff?

[Spinachcat]

THANK YOU ALL FOR RESPONDING!!!

What does all this boil down to? That the quality of yesterday is not good enough today.

The OSR (Old School Renaissance) has revived AD&D and new "clones" of TSR era D&D such as OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Castles & Crusades and Labyrinth Lord have done remarkably well online and many successful Kickstarters. Also, lots of people still buy Monopoly every Christmas so the quality of yesteryear still sells today. Not in the same numbers, but they still sell bit by bit. You may have heard of the "long tail" economic theory, and its certainly true for Palladium.

The OSR online has sparked new interest in old games. Palladium is as old school as it gets.

While someone new to RPGs will have some trouble with Rifts, any veteran RPGer whose played various RPGs is going to be able to figure it out. Moreover, since the review is online attached to a RPG forum, the veteran RPGer who buys the game knows there's an entire RPG community ready to discuss the rules and houserules.

Plus there's the Palladium GM forum! You could mention that in the review too!

But in order to hook new blood, you need to review new books.

You don't need to review new books, just books currently available. Palladium sells its old catalog.

I plan to review the original Mechanoids RPG. It's not new, or supported, but anyone can buy it from DriveThruRPG with a click of a button.

Review of old RPGs are always welcome. Especially in the age of PDF and eBay.

I have a long policy to stay away from there that but will start posting reviews to theRPGsite.

Awesome!!!!

Don't forget to post on other forums and Amazon too!

BTW, for those who don't know, theRPGsite is run by RPGPundit who is a Rifts fan whose forum stickied his Palladium house rules and there are plenty of Palladium fans on the site. This year there was a long running thread breaking down Palladium Fantasy chapter by chapter. It's a free speech forum so its the web's Mos Eisley, but Palladium fans will find many kindred voices.

[Spinachcat]

Spina, your'e asking as many people as possible to go over and give good reviews to products that you've just admitted don't have many reviews.

I am not asking for good reviews full of fluff. I want honest reviews from fans. If someone has been running Rifts or HU or Dead Reign, they are the right person to discuss the game and the supplements they bought.

How is that not gaming the system?

Let's look at their system.
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml

Please search for Rifts. You will see 5 reviews of the core book. The scores are quite different, and there is no "overall score" for Rifts, just 5 separate reviews by 5 separate people who give their opinions. There is no composite score.

EDIT: Here is a review I wrote recently. Look in the lower right hand corner. You will see there are 3 other reviews with their ratings and links.
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/16/16570.phtml

Also, what do you think will happen if some folks notice that a bunch of years-old Palladium products are suddenly getting a whole lot of nice reviews, then does a little homework because they're bored and finds your thread here on All Things Palladium Books where you're putting out a call to arms to oppose RPG.net's supposedly terrible anti-Palladium bias?

What will happen? Absolutely and utterly nothing. Maybe poster may throw a hissy, but who cares? It's the internet. There's ALWAYS somebody who gets offended by everything.

Plus, everyone on RPG.net can read me saying OVER and OVER again that I want honest reviews. And if there's a crybaby meltdown thread on any forum whatsoever about this thread, please let me know and I will enter the fray and talk about it directly with whoever.

I actually don't care about RPG.net's anti-PB or anti-Kevin bias because I am NOT trying to change minds on their forums. I am ONLY trying to include more Palladium reviews on the RPG.net FRONT page and everywhere else on the web that hosts RPG reviews.

Also also, if you really wanted "fair" reviews and not overwhelmingly positive reviews, why are you making a thread about it here instead of asking RPG.net's existing community what they think about Palladium's stuff?

I am not interested in RPG.net forum discussions. I am interested in Reviews. AKA, my interest is the Front Page, not the Forums.

Also, I prefer Actual Play reviews vs. just Reader reviews. The BEST place to find people who've played Palladium games is the Palladium forums. The best people to write Actual Play are GMs because they've dealt with system issues and setting issues directly and seen how it plays at the table with various different players.

Moreover, I don't just want RPG.net reviews. I want them there because RPG.net's reviews have the biggest audience. If someone writes a review, I want them posting on other forums and venues as well. More the merrier.

[jaymz]

I do not know what your background, gaming experience or exposure is Spin but...

any veteran RPGer whose played various RPGs is going to be able to figure it out.

THIS is unacceptable to the vast majority of gamers I have interacted over the last 30 years, both online and in person, and is one of the primary reasons people give up on Palladium. Someone new to Palladium shouldn't have to "figure it out"

Add to the lack of availability MANY of us have locally (and ordering direct is costly to the point of someone like me in Canada will NOT buy a Grab bag since in the end with shipping is no deal at all) along with the lack of players locally as well (and short of taking out tv/radio/newspaper adds, I have done everything in my power to change that no avail as have MANY others). and you have a situation that is untenable.

If you want actual honest reviews, you may not like the result. Even as a 30+ year fan I could not give a good review to just about any book they have. Overall the quality to me has declined the last 20 years and continuing to do so. I used to buy a book right away. Now, meh, I'll get it if I get it.

If the goal is to get peopel to buy and play, my reviews would NOT do that and if anything would convince them not too.

[Spinachcat]

If you want actual honest reviews, you may not like the result. Even as a 30+ year fan I could not give a good review to just about any book they have.

That's weird jaymz. If you had such a low opinion of PB's games, why have you been a member here for 7 years with 12k posts?

SOMETHING drew you to PB's games and SOMETHING draws you back to stay involved with the PB community. Why would you not want to share your enjoyment of whatever game line you love with other gamers?

PB's system isn't perfect, but plenty of RPGs are wonky. Maybe its because I started RPGs in 1978, so it was always about the actual play of the games at the table and not the nitpicking that drowns discussions online.

I get what your trying to do spin, but the truth of the matter is, there just isn't enough positive about PB or their products. It's outnumbered by way more negatives and it's a shame too because RRT is actually a decent game.

If someone buys a RTT box, will they have fun playing with that box? The pros & cons of your thoughts on that would be your review.

Again, I am asking for HONEST reviews. That means PROs and CONs.

I am NOT asking for anyone to PRAISE or RAIL AGAINST the company. All I ask for is an honest discussion of WHY you enjoy a certain book or game line. It's quite possible to greatly enjoy something, but still be honest with the flaws. I love Megadeth, listen to them all the time, but sadly their live shows don't have the same energy anymore. If you like metal, I can happily suggest you listen to Megadeth. If you want to see a great metal show live, I can't recommend Megadeth anymore.

Also, PB isn't going to vanish because of RTT, even if its somehow "forced" into bankruptcy. BK isn't a punishment, its a business tool to reorganize, rebuild and move on with your debts behind you. PB's main value is it's IP and that doesn't get sold off like boxes of widgets.

[jaymz]

If you want actual honest reviews, you may not like the result. Even as a 30+ year fan I could not give a good review to just about any book they have.

That's weird jaymz. If you had such a low opinion of PB's games, why have you been a member here for 7 years with 12k posts?

SOMETHING drew you to PB's games and SOMETHING draws you back to stay involved with the PB community. Why would you not want to share your enjoyment of whatever game line you love with other gamers?

PB's system isn't perfect, but plenty of RPGs are wonky. Maybe its because I started RPGs in 1978, so it was always about the actual play of the games at the table and not the nitpicking that drowns discussions online.

Indeed there is something that draws me to the games themselves but that does not mean the books will get overall good reviews Spinachcat. It is not a matter of such low opinions at all as opposed to what you are assuming. Just because I enjoy playing the games does not automatically mean I must think the books themselves are of good quality overall. I still play and enjoy Palladium's games. That is irrelevant to the quality of any given book.

It is called "if one is going to do an honest review of something (which is what you are asking last I checked), one must do so from an objective and unbiased position" and if I do that the books cannot get an overall good review. Even 25+ years ago they could not get an overall good review from me. Will certain aspects? Definitely, but overall? No. Even when I started encountering Palladium books in the late 80's (god we are old) I found them lacking in quality over all.

Unlike a number of fellow members on these forums, I will not give a pass on quality based soley on the enjoyment I get from PLAYING the games. Unlike the reviews I have seen that are greatly skewed and written wearing very rose coloured glasses.

[Spinachcat]

Just because I enjoy playing the games does not automatically mean I must think the books themselves are of good quality overall. I still play and enjoy Palladium's games. That is irrelevant to the quality of any given book.

Jaymz, I would LOVE for you to post a detailed review of whatever PB game you enjoy playing most or whatever supplement you get the most out of as a GM or player. YOU would be a great reviewer because of your 25+ years with PB.

It is 1000% fine to review a book that you do not believe is "good quality overall", but SOMEHOW keeps your interest as a GM and player and community member for THREE DECADES. Whatever those aspects you enjoy must be amazing because SOMEHOW in spite of all the negatives you perceive, those aspects keep you engaged.

If I had 1/10th of the concerns of many posters, I couldn't imagine still being interested in PB games. I like Exalted, but too many issues with the system, the setting and White Wolf/Onyx keep me from being fully engaged as a fan. FOR ME, the problems in PB's stuff is easy FOR ME to gloss over, knock aside or DIY repair. AKA, how I've always dealt with D&D.

There used to be a great burger joint in LA called Panos. Greek fast food and amazing burgers run by a really ancient dude and his incompetent kids & staff. The place was probably cleaned once a year. The kitchen looked post-apocalyptic. The service was a joke. They served the food on the cheapest, flimsiest disposable "plates". But I would drive miles out of my way every week to grab some of their freaking awesome food. See? That's the review I'm talking about. I put up with the big negatives because of the far bigger positive. I never pulled my punches about Panos and all my friends who went there loved it because there were no surprises after what I told them.

THIS is what I am asking for PB fans to do. Be honest about all aspects of their experience.

Here's the laugh I see. There are untold piles of RPGs with more coherent rules that look like works of art, but they go unplayed and sit on shelves forgotten. Meanwhile, PB chugs along year after year and people actually play PB games. Not enough people, but certainly there are groups scattered across the globe.

There's a reason why PB games gets played. It's that reason that I want shared with others. If you could share the REASON that you still enjoy PB's games, maybe others would buy the books - with open eyes - and get into the PB community as GMs and players as well.

Wouldn't you like to have more players for your favorite game?

[jaymz]

Spinachcat - I have done everything I possibly could locally, short of tv/radio/newspaper ads to get new players. Even with my positives of Palladium's games (not unlike your analogy) the few I managed to get even interested in MAYBE trying were then quickly turned off not by me or any negative I pointed out but the company's history etc. Things they looked up for themselves. Sadly the RRT fiasco has just made it THAT much more difficult. How do I fight and counter act all of THAT?

I can tell you what got me hooked to Palladium. The concept of Rifts (everything else and every other game is just source material). Nothing more. The concept. That's it. The rules are not that good. The layout was not that good. The art was ok but not great. The classes were stereotypes. The concept....is the food you talk about above. Problem is, old school people like us? We are not the norm anymore. Haven't been for a while. Players today have shown they want that food....but they want the rest to be as top notch as possible to go with it.

I am pretty well resigned to playing with the few players I know (long time players like us) because frankly the work I've put in over the past decade to try and just get even one new player has been exhausting, frustrating, and has born no fruit whatsoever. Hell I STILL argue with the local shops that Palladium is in fact still in business.

The only thing that can turn around the attitude towards Palladium at this point, in my opinion, is Palladium. That is it.

[Spinachcat]

Spinachcat - I have done everything I possibly could locally, short of tv/radio/newspaper ads to get new players.

I know that's 100% true. I've followed your posts for years. I know you've fought hard to promote PB...which is why I would love to see your reviews being read.

The only thing that can turn around the attitude towards Palladium at this point, in my opinion, is Palladium. That is it.

Hopefully, the new Savage Rifts will bring new players interested in the IP. However, I don't know when PB will be able (or willing) to aggressively market itself to new players. Until then, I see the only hope of getting fresh blood is the current members of the PB community taking on the marketing role and online marketing has the lowest barrier to entry.

Thus, this thread.

[jaymz]

I applaud your effort man I really do but....

Until then, I see the only hope of getting fresh blood is the current members of the PB community taking on the marketing role and online marketing has the lowest barrier to entry.

Thus, this thread.

This is the way it has been been for going on over 10 years. For it to work....the company needs to be doing something as well.

Edit - I am not trying to poopoo the idea....I just don't want you to end up feeling you are wasting your time man.

[Marcus9]

I do agree with Kevin that rpg games should be about having fun with your friends and not letting the rules get in the way.

[Forar]

This does run into issues where paying for the books is, inextricably, to pay for both the setting ("fluff") and the rules ("crunch").

I've always loved the setting, but the my friends and I had considerable issues with the rules (not interested in debating this point, that was our experience).

Rules are used to keep everyone on the same page (figuratively and literally). While I absolutely agree that one playing or running a game need not be held explicitly to every single little letter of the law (forsaking Fun), there hits a point where if you aren't using the rules as written (within reason, again), it's less a table top RPG and more an improv storytelling group.

But to the point of the thread, I can understand the desire to 'get the word out', PB has been around for, what, nearly 40 decades? Lack of reviews isn't their problem, and getting some out there might attract a little attention, but in this Information Era, it's not like savvy consumers who do a quick google'ing are going to be happy to see commentary on decades delayed books, the "Crisis of Treachery", the Robotech Tactics fiasco, etc.

[Rallan]

I do agree with Kevin that rpg games should be about having fun with your friends and not letting the rules get in the way.

I'm not sure if blaming the critics for not having enough imagination is a great defense of the rules. Or a great way to sell a game to people.

[Hotrod]

This poll would be more illuminating if the options boiled down to something other than "I totally agree with the author" and "I suck."

[Spinachcat]

Hotrod, please feel free to post your own thoughts and options!

Or better yet, feel free to post a review of your favorite PB book on RPG.net and on many other RPG review sites!

[Spinachcat]

I just noticed RPG.net has a couple dozen Palladium reviews...but none since 2012.

I will be posting one this month. I'm looking forward to what you may be posting as well. It would be fun for RPG.net to suddenly get a Christmas rush of PB reviews (and again for the reading impaired, I am again asking for HONEST reviews, not Fan Lovefests)

BTW, theRPGsite hosted 2 Palladium reviews last year
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.ph ... -Unlimited
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.ph ... rn-Islands

As you can see by the nearly 3000 views, the reviews got many eyeballs and who knows how many of those posters and lurkers were converted into purchasers. Also, note the reviews are honest breakdowns, not lovefests.

[Shawn Merrow]

Got to finish the one I started for System Failure.

[Rallan]

Give up Spina. Trying to get fans to flood another site with positive reviews so it'll drown out everything bad that's been said is a terrible idea. And if your idea had actually worked (which fortunately it didn't), it would've just reinforced all the worst stereotypes about us Palladium fans being a pack of thinskinned crybabies who can't admit that there's anything wrong with our favouorite game and go ape whenever somene says anything unflattering about it.

[Ulairi]

Give up Spina. Trying to get fans to flood another site with positive reviews so it'll drown out everything bad that's been said is a terrible idea. And if your idea had actually worked (which fortunately it didn't), it would've just reinforced all the worst stereotypes about us Palladium fans being a pack of thinskinned crybabies who can't admit that there's anything wrong with our favouorite game and go ape whenever somene says anything unflattering about it.

I'm knew to the forum but how does posting reviews for games you like drown out bad things said about Palladium?

I guess from my point of view the controversy around Palladium Books isn't relevant anymore except to people with long history with the company or are fans of participating in RPG forums. I think if you talked to random gamers at a con and asked them about Palladium, chances are, they aren't that familiar with the company or they've forgotten the controversies or gotten over them.

I post over at TheRPGSite.com and Rifts or Palladium is brought up frequently and it's never the controversy it's just the games. But it is an old school gamers forum so people are good g to be more friendly to the system than most.

[Spinachcat]

Rallan, please re-read the OP. It says NOTHING about "flood another site with positive reviews". ZERO. NADA. NONE.

You have 11 thousand posts in the PB echo chamber. You clearly love PB games. Why not share that enjoyment?

As I've explained before, posting a REVIEW at RPG.net is NOT NOT NOT posting in their forums. The REVIEW section is its own space on the site, and frequented by MANY people who do not engage in their forums, but simply go there to READ reviews.

Also, as I've explained repeatedly, I am NOT NOT NOT asking for positive reviews. I am asking for HONEST reviews.

But you're right. It's high time for me to give up trying to promote PB's games. My energy is better spent on my own projects.

[Ulairi]

Rallan, please re-read the OP. It says NOTHING about "flood another site with positive reviews". ZERO. NADA. NONE.

You have 11 thousand posts in the PB echo chamber. You clearly love PB games. Why not share that enjoyment?

As I've explained before, posting a REVIEW at RPG.net is NOT NOT NOT posting in their forums. The REVIEW section is its own space on the site, and frequented by MANY people who do not engage in their forums, but simply go there to READ reviews.

Also, as I've explained repeatedly, I am NOT NOT NOT asking for positive reviews. I am asking for HONEST reviews.

But you're right. It's high time for me to give up trying to promote PB's games. My energy is better spent on my own projects.

Also, fans should organize review blitzes as that helps promote the game. Many communities do it and Palladium fans shouldn't be locked out. I'm going to write one now for RPG.net

[Sureshot]

At the same time reviews need to be objective and unbiased imo. Simply posting "this book is the greatest thing since sliced bread". Usually ends up turning away those interested in a product. Too many overly postive reviews and they get ignored. Gamers want honest reviews not bashing or simply feel good reviews. If a palladium book #50 is porrly organized than it needs to be mentioned in a review. Not ignored because it may hurt Kevin or Freelancer XYZ feelings.

Also remember your trying to promote the product to a audience that depending on who the person reading the review. May or may not be familiar with Palladium product. Don't assume that those reading the it are. For example I find RUE to be very poorly organized with too many ads for other PB products. That needs to be said. If not don't bother as either the reviews will be ignored. Or the reviewer will get a reputation for being too biased in Palladium favor.

[Glistam]

For example I find RUE to be very poorly organized with too many ads for other PB products. That needs to be said.

Then say it in a review.

[Blue_Lion]

I did find a break down of the ratings of the reveiws but for the life of me it looks like something is off.

https://index.rpg.net/display-entry-sta ... 74#reviews

The reviews appear to be the two numbers added however when you look at the break down they use for weight the numbers do not match the reviews. (note i am talking about the written reviews not the ratings from users.)

They have it listed as reviews scored 3=13% 4=38% 5=25% 6=13% 8=13%, however the actual scores are 2+2(4), 2+5(7), 2+4(6), 3+2(5), 3+2(5), 2+3(5), 1+3(4), 4+2(6).
That gives a range of 4=2 5=3, 6=2, 7=1. So there is no way that 13% of those 8 votes went to 3 or 8.

To me this shows that they may be manupalting the numbers on products review score. The top rated product does not show the rating of 5 with a weight to 35 (9 users at max trust) that they say they add in. D&D, shadow run, and pathfinder the big names in gaming are all at middle of the ratings.

[RockJock]

I just came across this thread, mainly because I'm stuck with snow, and the search isn't working:).

One of the reasons there are so many old reviews is that PB has been around forever. Another is that so many books/games were never finished (Chaos, BtS2 as examples). Neither are a full game in my opinion. If you have never played PB before, and you don't have Rifts/HU, or similar to pull from you can't play the full game. I've played PB games since the early 90s so the missing pieces and books is more of an annoyance than anything substantial for me, but to really walk in and pick up either of those PB title and play it you need an experienced GM with a library.

I will think about writing a review of the next new book I see, if I feel I can write a decent one.

[Ulairi]

At the same time reviews need to be objective and unbiased imo. Simply posting "this book is the greatest thing since sliced bread". Usually ends up turning away those interested in a product. Too many overly postive reviews and they get ignored. Gamers want honest reviews not bashing or simply feel good reviews. If a palladium book #50 is porrly organized than it needs to be mentioned in a review. Not ignored because it may hurt Kevin or Freelancer XYZ feelings.

Also remember your trying to promote the product to a audience that depending on who the person reading the review. May or may not be familiar with Palladium product. Don't assume that those reading the it are. For example I find RUE to be very poorly organized with too many ads for other PB products. That needs to be said. If not don't bother as either the reviews will be ignored. Or the reviewer will get a reputation for being too biased in Palladium favor.

A review by its very nature cannot be unbiased or objective. They need to be fair and honest. But they shouldn't be objective or unbiased.

If I wrote a review of RUE, you're spot on with the organization being poor. And figuring out how to create a character is way too difficult for new players. The biggest thing I think Rifts (and all of Palladiums games, really) need is a revision and better organization to make the books easier to digest.

[Blue_Lion]

At the same time reviews need to be objective and unbiased imo. Simply posting "this book is the greatest thing since sliced bread". Usually ends up turning away those interested in a product. Too many overly postive reviews and they get ignored. Gamers want honest reviews not bashing or simply feel good reviews. If a palladium book #50 is porrly organized than it needs to be mentioned in a review. Not ignored because it may hurt Kevin or Freelancer XYZ feelings.

Also remember your trying to promote the product to a audience that depending on who the person reading the review. May or may not be familiar with Palladium product. Don't assume that those reading the it are. For example I find RUE to be very poorly organized with too many ads for other PB products. That needs to be said. If not don't bother as either the reviews will be ignored. Or the reviewer will get a reputation for being too biased in Palladium favor.

A review by its very nature cannot be unbiased or objective. They need to be fair and honest. But they shouldn't be objective or unbiased.

If I wrote a review of RUE, you're spot on with the organization being poor. And figuring out how to create a character is way too difficult for new players. The biggest thing I think Rifts (and all of Palladiums games, really) need is a revision and better organization to make the books easier to digest.

To me roleplayer rulet did a good job at a review of rifts.

https://youtu.be/_jb6b5O_Npc