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A 9th lvl Air Warlock or a 4th lvl Summoner is really powerful. Why? Because of their secret ability to summon an near instant Army. Allow me to tell you.

All warlocks can summon their elemental brethren (much like Summoners). With one Major air elemental at their command air warlock could command an Army of Elementals.

Major Air Elementals can cast all air spells at 10th level proficiency. Which gives with access to the Phantom spell which only costs 30 PPE to cast. The average amount of PPE a Major Air Elemental has is 1200 PPE!

That means they could potentially control up to 40 Phantoms at once. Which is just the tip of the iceberg. Because at 10th level that means they will remain for 2 1/2 hours under the elementals control.

Phantoms themselves also being elemental essence fragment. Can cast all air elemental magic 1-4 and have 100 PPE. Which gives them access to the Phantom Footman spell. Which again allows them to summon another lesser elemental essence fragment. The spell only costs 20 PPE which means each Phantom could have the possibility of summoning another 5 Phantom Footmen each.

Which means that either a 4th level Summoner or 9th level Air Warlock could potential have at his command, 1 Major Air Elemental, 40 Phantoms and 200 Phantom Footmen to use as his personal army. All that without using any more of their own power than the initial summoning takes.

Yep. They can get pretty scary, given time and inclination.

Well, they could do that, or use Tornado.

-Vek
"I see something which sparks a new post."

Wouldn't Circle Magic's "Animate (and Control) Dead" Power Circle done by a Level 2 practitioner create a larger army, and if they use a Power Matrix they could connect duplicate circles and lower the level count (Level 1). Granted The Warlock doesn't use PPE and likely can do this faster (don't have to draw the circle or symbols on each dead) and easier (no component cost), but only has a percentage chance it will work and can only attempt it once per day. Even at 10th Level that is only 25% chance to summon a Greater Elemental.

Perhaps, Shadowlogan, but it's not like you start with two power circles.

True I didn't check on Summoner's Circle progression, but even at low levels they can create an "army" potentially that dwarfs the suggested Warlock one as they don't have to wait until high level, just any low level and the necessary circles.

The main advantage of the Warlock scenario is it doesn't cost any PPE on the Warlock's part, but isn't really instant if we factor in prep time (takes 2 hours on Palladium World, 2d6 minutes on Rifts Earth), and even then no guarantee of success. A Summoner has "Summon True Elementals" (no limit on the type of elementals) or even Jinn which can potentially allow it to be done faster (summoning circles take 1/2-1hr to make) and with a higher chance of success (no skill role, it just works) and done at lower levels for the same effect. And per the text PF2E's Summoner knows all Summoning Circles (in that book), which means they could duplicate the feat at lower level than the Warlock in numbers potentially (IINM the individual who does the actual summoning determines the duration, which in this case would not be the Warlock or Summoner, but the Elemental/Jinn).

Granted given enough time there are other ways to raise an army that is potentially more lasting still using some form of Zombies, Mummies, or Golem. I say some form because of Air/Earth Warlock combo appears to get around the Golem SDC cost. Also need to consider just how big this army has to be,though I do think the Animate Dead Power Circle is PPE efficient compared to these, but aren't as long lasting and are potentially vulnerable if you can destroy/disable the circle. Both have material component costs (how many dead can the blood of a single salamander be used to create the proper symbol AND still remain fresh?).

ShadowLogan wrote:True I didn't check on Summoner's Circle progression, but even at low levels they can create an "army" potentially that dwarfs the suggested Warlock one as they don't have to wait until high level, just any low level and the necessary circles.

The main advantage of the Warlock scenario is it doesn't cost any PPE on the Warlock's part, but isn't really instant if we factor in prep time (takes 2 hours on Palladium World, 2d6 minutes on Rifts Earth), and even then no guarantee of success. A Summoner has "Summon True Elementals" (no limit on the type of elementals) or even Jinn which can potentially allow it to be done faster (summoning circles take 1/2-1hr to make) and with a higher chance of success (no skill role, it just works) and done at lower levels for the same effect. And per the text PF2E's Summoner knows all Summoning Circles (in that book), which means they could duplicate the feat at lower level than the Warlock in numbers potentially (IINM the individual who does the actual summoning determines the duration, which in this case would not be the Warlock or Summoner, but the Elemental/Jinn).

Granted given enough time there are other ways to raise an army that is potentially more lasting still using some form of Zombies, Mummies, or Golem. I say some form because of Air/Earth Warlock combo appears to get around the Golem SDC cost. Also need to consider just how big this army has to be,though I do think the Animate Dead Power Circle is PPE efficient compared to these, but aren't as long lasting and are potentially vulnerable if you can destroy/disable the circle. Both have material component costs (how many dead can the blood of a single salamander be used to create the proper symbol AND still remain fresh?).

Well a Summoner gets the advantage of being able to summon a Major Elemental at a lower level than a Warlock yes that is true. However, the Warlock gets the advantage of actually being friends with his m mini army. So the group would be more likely to work together and take orders better than the Summoner. Which would really only commands the Major Air Elemental and rely on it to communicate its orders down to the lesser essences.

However a same XP level Summoner could in fact control two Majors elementals and potentially double the size of his army so he would have that advantage over a warlock.

Regardless it is an impressive capability that one single PC or NPC could potential raze a small town or defeat a large invading force.

ShadowLogan wrote:Wouldn't Circle Magic's "Animate (and Control) Dead" Power Circle done by a Level 2 practitioner create a larger army, and if they use a Power Matrix they could connect duplicate circles and lower the level count (Level 1).

Where does this part about lowering the level count come from? I don't see that on page 153. Getting a dragon helm could also be tricky at that level, though possibly cheaper than learning the Power Matrix.

Lukterran wrote:However a same XP level Summoner could in fact control two Majors elementals and potentially double the size of his army so he would have that advantage over a warlock.

It's never wise to summon more than one elemental, if they are alone when they break free they just run away, but if you have another elemental enslaved it will stick around to attack you to free it's brother. Better to use that 2nd slot on a Green/Air Jinn.

Its only a limit if you want to control what you summon.
Sit in your circle
summon a balrog in an enemy city, say cut sick on everyone and summon the next one, and do that 50 more times then teleport to a different country. It only takes doves so no problem.

kiralon wrote:Its only a limit if you want to control what you summon.
Sit in your circle
summon a balrog in an enemy city, say cut sick on everyone and summon the next one, and do that 50 more times then teleport to a different country. It only takes doves so no problem.

"This is what it sounds like....when doves cry"

Is all I could think of after this post.

Balrogs might enjoy doing that after they evisceraet you for so rudely interrupting their daily torture session. They also might want to rush back to whatever task their Demon Lord had them in the middle of doing.

Axelmania wrote:Balrogs might enjoy doing that after they evisceraet you for so rudely interrupting their daily torture session. They also might want to rush back to whatever task their Demon Lord had them in the middle of doing.

Which is why you don't step out of the protection circle.

Lukterran wrote:Regardless it is an impressive capability that one single PC or NPC could potential raze a small town or defeat a large invading force.

Yes it an impressive capability, but one that other PC/NPCs can potentially do to at lower levels. So having a Level 9 character able to do it, while impressive isn't as impressive as one of a significantly lower level.

Axelmania wrote:Where does this part about lowering the level count come from? I don't see that on page 153. Getting a dragon helm could also be tricky at that level, though possibly cheaper than learning the Power Matrix.

The lowering Level Count isn't in the book, but rather a theoretical look at WHEN they can do it. Nothing, besides the GM availability, can prevent a Summoner from learning all the Circles while at Level 1. Now getting the materials to make the circles and such is a different matter, but theoretically at Level 1 they could do it and raise an army much larger than the Warlock at Level 9 summoning an Elemental and daisy chaining it.

Theoretically you could also raise the supplies to buy yourselves a Kreeghor Dreadnought and annihilate that skeleton army

Mark Hall wrote:Which is why you don't step out of the protection circle.

The +4 to save is handy but even if you make your save, a Cloud of Ash will still inflict 1D6/round to you. You'd need a very large circle with a radius of more than 115 feet to avoid a Cloud of Ash or Circle of Flame or Cloud of Steam. 140 feet for fireball. 150 feet for Create Heat or Lower Temperature.

Or the Balrog just summons a bunch of Flame Friends to attack you, since they would not be held at bay by the circle. Even the lowest PPE guy can summon 5 of them and they can stick around 75 minutes.

Since these things can carry 1000 pounds they might also possibly just carry the Baalrog through the circle. They don't have a stated weight but Locusts are as long as Balrogs are tall and weigh a mere 700 pounds. Even the Gallu who range to 2 feet taller than Baalrogs max out at 1000.

A lack of or too-high ceiling could also cause a problem. No matter how wide your circle is, pretty sure there's a rule that 2-dimensional magical area effects have a height ceiling of something like 10-15 feet. Federation of Magic page 127 mentions this under 'Area Affect Magic' (circular ripple, not 3-D spherical) not sure if it got reprinted in a PF book though.

the flaw i can see in the original post is that warlocks have a careful balance of command and compassion to maintain with elementals. i find it highly unlikely that an elemental would want to cast that spell 40 times and drain all its PPE, so the warlock would have to really work hard to get the elemental to want to do it. and if they go all "this i command" it tends to tick off the elementals.

the same for the 2nd round of casting.. why would the phantoms want to spend all their PPE summoning phantom footmen? and would the warlock be able to directly command such, or would you have to relay instructions down through the elemental and then the phantoms? which seems like a situation rife with potential for orders being messed up.

Perhaps, GB, but also consider that Elementals will accept some pretty abstruse reasoning. "Because I must" is considered a valid reason for them.

Mark Hall wrote:Perhaps, GB, but also consider that Elementals will accept some pretty abstruse reasoning. "Because I must" is considered a valid reason for them.

That and calling one up to have it spend some PPE for you or contribute it to you is hardly an issue, you'd need to threaten its existence, keep it from its home dimension for long periods, or other egregious abuses before you'd generate issues with an elemental and Warlocks being their strange non-elemental brothers will get plenty of warning that they're going too far. Even then it doesn't seem like elementals can stop a Warlock that's abusive from summoning and controlling them but it'll be as hostile for that Warlock as they normally are for non-Warlocks.

Nightmask wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Perhaps, GB, but also consider that Elementals will accept some pretty abstruse reasoning. "Because I must" is considered a valid reason for them.

That and calling one up to have it spend some PPE for you or contribute it to you is hardly an issue, you'd need to threaten its existence, keep it from its home dimension for long periods, or other egregious abuses before you'd generate issues with an elemental and Warlocks being their strange non-elemental brothers will get plenty of warning that they're going too far. Even then it doesn't seem like elementals can stop a Warlock that's abusive from summoning and controlling them but it'll be as hostile for that Warlock as they normally are for non-Warlocks.

My headcanon is that warlocks are human(oids) with the souls of elementals. It makes them a bit odd, from a human(oid) perspective, but they're still mostly human(oid) in their brains.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the flaw i can see in the original post is that warlocks have a careful balance of command and compassion to maintain with elementals. i find it highly unlikely that an elemental would want to cast that spell 40 times and drain all its PPE, so the warlock would have to really work hard to get the elemental to want to do it. and if they go all "this i command" it tends to tick off the elementals.

the same for the 2nd round of casting.. why would the phantoms want to spend all their PPE summoning phantom footmen? and would the warlock be able to directly command such, or would you have to relay instructions down through the elemental and then the phantoms? which seems like a situation rife with potential for orders being messed up.

Elementals wouldn't have any issue giving up all their PPE to their warlock brethren. Draining it's PPE for a day does harm them in any way shape or form. The only issue is they might not have all their PPE available. Who is to say what elementals do in their own dimension and if they might have cast a spell or two already prior to being summoned.

Warlocks can speak with all Elementals, Phantom, Phantom Footmen with complete understanding it would be high unlikely a warlocks orders would be misunderstood. I could see that happening with a summoner but not a warlock.

Lukterran wrote:A 9th lvl Air Warlock or a 4th lvl Summoner is really powerful. Why? Because of their secret ability to summon an near instant Army. Allow me to tell you.

All warlocks can summon their elemental brethren (much like Summoners). With one Major air elemental at their command air warlock could command an Army of Elementals.

Major Air Elementals can cast all air spells at 10th level proficiency. Which gives with access to the Phantom spell which only costs 30 PPE to cast. The average amount of PPE a Major Air Elemental has is 1200 PPE!

That means they could potentially control up to 40 Phantoms at once. Which is just the tip of the iceberg. Because at 10th level that means they will remain for 2 1/2 hours under the elementals control.

Phantoms themselves also being elemental essence fragment. Can cast all air elemental magic 1-4 and have 100 PPE. Which gives them access to the Phantom Footman spell. Which again allows them to summon another lesser elemental essence fragment. The spell only costs 20 PPE which means each Phantom could have the possibility of summoning another 5 Phantom Footmen each.

Which means that either a 4th level Summoner or 9th level Air Warlock could potential have at his command, 1 Major Air Elemental, 40 Phantoms and 200 Phantom Footmen to use as his personal army. All that without using any more of their own power than the initial summoning takes.

That's a lot of micromanagement.

Hotrod wrote:

Lukterran wrote:A 9th lvl Air Warlock or a 4th lvl Summoner is really powerful. Why? Because of their secret ability to summon an near instant Army. Allow me to tell you.

All warlocks can summon their elemental brethren (much like Summoners). With one Major air elemental at their command air warlock could command an Army of Elementals.

Major Air Elementals can cast all air spells at 10th level proficiency. Which gives with access to the Phantom spell which only costs 30 PPE to cast. The average amount of PPE a Major Air Elemental has is 1200 PPE!

That means they could potentially control up to 40 Phantoms at once. Which is just the tip of the iceberg. Because at 10th level that means they will remain for 2 1/2 hours under the elementals control.

Phantoms themselves also being elemental essence fragment. Can cast all air elemental magic 1-4 and have 100 PPE. Which gives them access to the Phantom Footman spell. Which again allows them to summon another lesser elemental essence fragment. The spell only costs 20 PPE which means each Phantom could have the possibility of summoning another 5 Phantom Footmen each.

Which means that either a 4th level Summoner or 9th level Air Warlock could potential have at his command, 1 Major Air Elemental, 40 Phantoms and 200 Phantom Footmen to use as his personal army. All that without using any more of their own power than the initial summoning takes.

That's a lot of micromanagement.

Depends on the scenario. If you are about to fight a horde of orcs and goblins that are pouring over the hillside and advancing toward a town the warlock is trying to protect; a simple order like "Kill all the orcs and goblins heading this way" may be the only order needed to be given.

But yes if you are intending to control and reign in the actions of the elementals it would be a lot of micromanagement.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the flaw i can see in the original post is that warlocks have a careful balance of command and compassion to maintain with elementals. i find it highly unlikely that an elemental would want to cast that spell 40 times and drain all its PPE, so the warlock would have to really work hard to get the elemental to want to do it. and if they go all "this i command" it tends to tick off the elementals.

The post should really focus on the exploitation a 4th level Summoner can do, agreed

glitterboy2098 wrote:the same for the 2nd round of casting.. why would the phantoms want to spend all their PPE summoning phantom footmen? and would the warlock be able to directly command such, or would you have to relay instructions down through the elemental and then the phantoms? which seems like a situation rife with potential for orders being messed up.

Doesn't seem that complicated. Shifter orders Greater Air: "summon as many Phantoms as you can, and then order them to summon as many Footmen as they can, and then order them all to attack that dragon".

Only works well with straight-up conflict. Even something as simple as "spare the women and children" is bound to cause problems since none of these 3 tiers of creature would be any good at recognizing gender or age.

Lukterran wrote:a simple order like "Kill all the orcs and goblins heading this way" may be the only order needed to be given.

I have to wonder though... can elementals even recognize species? What if all humanoids look the same to them? What if you had to manually point out "kill that being" for them to know what you meant?

ShadowLogan wrote:Nothing, besides the GM availability, can prevent a Summoner from learning all the Circles while at Level 1.

Nothing besides having half a brain, maybe. What a ridiculous idea.

Axelmania wrote:Only works well with straight-up conflict. Even something as simple as "spare the women and children" is bound to cause problems since none of these 3 tiers of creature would be any good at recognizing gender or age.

Pretty sure they'd at least know what the age meant. Otherwise, you could make the same argument that they wouldn't know what the young dragon was when commanded to "kill that young dragon over there".

With gender, that's more iffy, I'd give it a 50/50 chance for them to know.