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Posted: **Tue May 10, 2016 6:16 pm**

Due to a rather, ahem, heated debate on another thread, the topic of taking out a Firestorm Mobile Fortress came up, so instead of letting the thread jacking continue, I thought this topic could be examined all by itself.

Let's first examine the hard facts we have about the Mobile Fortress itself:

1) The whole structure is actually a combination of three vehicles, the Command Center itself and two Death's Head Transports.
1a) The crew of the Command Center is a total of 60.
1b) The crew of the individual DHT's are 17.
1c) The crew of all three is 94.

2) The troop payload[sub]1[/sub] can be varied, but the common troop load out includes:
One squad (6) of Skull Smashers
One squad (6) of Spider Skull Walkers
One squad (10) of GBK's
One platoon (40) Scout Spider Skull Walkers
One platoon (40) of Hellraisers
One platoon (40) of Hellfires or CS Cyborg Strike Troopers
One platoon (40) of Terror Trooper Commandos or CS Juicers
One platoon (40) of Scout Rocket Cycles and/or Warbird Rocket Cycles or other small aircraft
Two platoons of Special Forces (80 total, 60 in Striker SAMAS, 20 in Terror Troopers)
One company of Light Assault SAMAS (160; old or new)
One company of Super SAMAS (160)
One company of Infantry Soldiers (160; most support crews)
Total: 782 combat troops (894)

3) Weapons include LRM's and MRM's, plus Dual Laser Turrets over or next to every bay door and can fire 6 times per melee.

4) Take off from the ground takes about 15 minutes; 3d4 minutes in the case of an emergency.

Let's now look at things that I feel are inferred:

1) The interior is built with MDC plating to provide superior support to the crew complement it's supposed to be able to safely transport.

2) A security force of roughly 10% of the combat troops would be held back to protect the Firestorm.

3) While on the ground all power armor held back for the security detachment would be deployed outside of the Firestorm while 50% of Infantry, Juicers, and so on would be deployed outside while the rest are stationed inside.

4) All main hallways are large enough for a cyborg to easily walk down.

The situation is that the Firestorm has just unloaded 90% of it's combat troops for some mission and is currently on the ground.

How would an attacking force get inside and take out or steal the Firestorm Mobile Fortress? (Please explain your plan and reference all rules you are using)

Footnote
1: While it doesn't explicitly say this, but the troop compliments seem to infer that this is what the Command Center itself is capable of carrying and as such, the DHT's would likely have troops as well, however for the sake of simplicity let's assume that this troop load out is all that is present.

Posted: **Tue May 10, 2016 8:00 pm**

(I am a little curios at why the crew you list is smaller than the crew in my book. My book is 3rd eddtion. Crew for the command center includes commanders 2-4, combat officers 30, communications officers 20, and 60 crew. that is 112 minimal in the command center.)

**Step one you need a way to approach quickly and undetected with sufficient force. You would need a force well over a company possibly over a battalion(4 companies). As well as something to tie down the main forces.

That is the key if you can not get boots into the firestorm it will fail.

Fastest way is use of air transports equipped with Invisibility superior to close in and unload troops.

If there is only one spot close that has space for it to land you can prebuild a tunnel network to move troops into attack or be waiting inside underground bunkers. (This does require knowing it is coming.)

Invisisable apcs could move troops in but would have a higher chance of getting detected before they unload. The air transport can come in outside of dog boy and psistalker detection and drop down from above limiting warning time.

Rift teleportation might work as well.

***Once you have a way to it the next thing to consider is the entry point.

The cargo bay doors are the most obvious choice as they may still be open. The draw back to that is your troops will be out in an open cargo bay with there is lots of paths to attack.

The escape hatches may lead you straight to the command section bypassing the transport bay. they are located under the firestorm. Perhaps a choice for a prepared tunnel.

If you use air transports that does leave a few other choices.
Dropping a breach team on the roof they can use the secondary door on the top. It has 150 MD. You can then try a stealth entry with hacking(TW are good at this) or blow it with explosives. This will likely drop you in the samas bay any samas not in use may be captured here as the pilot is not in it.

The eyes are another entry point likely to allow you to take ensure it can not fly away. This is where pilots windows. Harder to breach likely require repelling/climbing each window has 100 MD and has shutters with another 200. No hacking you will have to force you way through. Good secondary entry to prevent launch.

***Once you get in the fire storm you need to be ready to stop it from calling for help and coordinating defenses. For this I would recommend a squad of Wild weasels samas.(only takes one but I like spares) They can Jam all CS communications while leaving a channel for you to use. Perhaps have them start jamming before you breach.

*If you are using TW air transports having TW attack helicopters and combat sky cycles start attacking external forces to prevent them from helping in the fight.

***Now comes the hard part you need to sweep and clear CS forces from the fortress. Expect high level of resistance from defending forces that have taken defensive position. Point man needs to be able to soak up fire perhaps tw augmentations such as impervious to energy or invulnerability. Speed is an issue you need to finish before the main forces can move to help or the CS high command figures out what you did and sends LRM to destroy it before you capture it..

***Dealing with prisoners and people that surrender is going to be an issue. you would need to establish a security force and a collection point. They do not need heavy armor and would need to search prisoners so non PA troops perhaps with wild weasel as extra muscle from the jamming squad.

If you took the eyes out and entered thought that point you may be able turn the firestorms weapons on the CS forces.

Posted: **Tue May 10, 2016 11:09 pm**

WB11 seems to indicate it's gonna be surrounded by "a large base camp or field army of 5,000 to 30,000" people (p.158). I think it would have a lot more than just the ship's organic Close Protection platoon or whatever covering it.

Posted: **Tue May 10, 2016 11:34 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:(I am a little curios at why the crew you list is smaller than the crew in my book. My book is 3rd eddtion. Crew for the command center includes commanders 2-4, combat officers 30, communications officers 20, and 60 crew. that is 112 minimal in the command center.)

I think I must have misinterpreted the information as to meaning 60 crew which included 2-4 commanders, 30 combat officers, and 20 comm officers.

Blue_Lion wrote:Fastest way is use of air transports equipped with Invisibility superior to close in and unload troops.

You just made me realize that while it was never specified (and I was in a slight rush earlier when I was making my list), there would almost certainly be half of a platoon of Psi-Stalkers and Dog Boys to detect the presence of magic and psychic forces. Logically the CS would need some sort of method to prevent this sort of thing from happening and would likely be a standard operating procedure. But, you talk about Dog Boys later in the post.

So how would you avoid triggering Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers from detecting the Invisible Transports.

Blue_Lion wrote:If there is only one spot close that has space for it to land you can prebuild a tunnel network to move troops into attack or be waiting inside underground bunkers. (This does require knowing it is coming.)

Do you have any information on how fast a tunnel can be built?

Blue_Lion wrote:Invisisable apcs could move troops in but would have a higher chance of getting detected before they unload. The air transport can come in outside of dog boy and psistalker detection and drop down from above limiting warning time.

As above. Also note that a first level Dog Boy can detect magic at a range of 400 feet while first level Psi Stalkers can detect magic out to 600 feet.

Blue_Lion wrote:Rift teleportation might work as well.

How long does it take from the time the magical energy starts to build (to the point that it would be detectable by Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers) to the point that creatures can pass through the Rift?

Blue_Lion wrote:The escape hatches may lead you straight to the command section bypassing the transport bay. they are located under the firestorm. Perhaps a choice for a prepared tunnel.

Firstly, the escape hatches would only open one way with no hand holds on the exterior to grab on to. It will have explosive charges to blow open the hatch (this would be to ensure that it is opened as quickly as possible regardless of the strength of the person activating the emergency hatch).

And explosive charges would be preferred over a pneumatically powered system as the explosive charges require the fewest moving parts, therefore the least likely to fail during an emergency.

Blue_Lion wrote:***Once you get in the fire storm you need to be ready to stop it from calling for help and coordinating defenses. For this I would recommend a squad of Wild weasels samas.(only takes one but I like spares) They can Jam all CS communications while leaving a channel for you to use. Perhaps have them start jamming before you breach.

You would have to start off with jamming otherwise everything goes to hell. How many Wild Weasels would you have? The Black Boxes have a 100 mile range, and the moment CS forces realize that radio frequencies are being jammed, they would likely fall back to the fortress (Special Forces most likely wouldn't as the would be used to radio silence). Also see next point.

Blue_Lion wrote:*If you are using TW air transports having TW attack helicopters and combat sky cycles start attacking external forces to prevent them from helping in the fight.

The Mobile Fortress does have one weapon I had failed to take into account, which is a Rail Gun turret that has a 2 mile range and deals considerable damage. Their top priority would most likely be the Wild Weasels if the are in range (the CS would have captured if not outright bought one to learn of their capabilities) then the helicopters, and unlike missiles, the Black Boxes can't jam the video feed for the turret.

Blue_Lion wrote:***Now comes the hard part you need to sweep and clear CS forces from the fortress. Expect high level of resistance from defending forces that have taken defensive position. Point man needs to be able to soak up fire perhaps tw augmentations such as impervious to energy or invulnerability. Speed is an issue you need to finish before the main forces can move to help or the CS high command figures out what you did and sends LRM to destroy it before you capture it..

Exactly how quickly are we talking and how would you defeat 170+ people in said amount of time (figure max of 12 minutes on an emergency take off with max die rolls). Also there is most likely an internal self destruct device, plus at some point the defenders on the outside would have orders to scrap the fortress if defeat seems inevitable (just to be on the safe side).

Procopius wrote:WB11 seems to indicate it's gonna be surrounded by "a large base camp or field army of 5,000 to 30,000" people (p.158). I think it would have a lot more than just the ship's organic Close Protection platoon or whatever covering it.

Posted: **Tue May 10, 2016 11:40 pm**

dragonfett wrote:Due to a rather, ahem, heated debate on another thread, the topic of taking out a Firestorm Mobile Fortress came up, so instead of letting the thread jacking continue, I thought this topic could be examined all by itself.

Let's first examine the hard facts we have about the Mobile Fortress itself:

1) The whole structure is actually a combination of three vehicles, the Command Center itself and two Death's Head Transports.
1a) The crew of the Command Center is a total of 60. (Edit: 112)
1b) The crew of the individual DHT's are 17.
1c) The crew of all three is 94. (Edit: 148)

2) The troop payload[sub]1[/sub] can be varied, but the common troop load out includes:
One squad (6) of Skull Smashers
One squad (6) of Spider Skull Walkers
One squad (10) of GBK's
One platoon (40) Scout Spider Skull Walkers
One platoon (40) of Hellraisers
One platoon (40) of Hellfires or CS Cyborg Strike Troopers
One platoon (40) of Terror Trooper Commandos or CS Juicers
One platoon (40) of Scout Rocket Cycles and/or Warbird Rocket Cycles or other small aircraft
Two platoons of Special Forces (80 total, 60 in Striker SAMAS, 20 in Terror Troopers)
One company of Light Assault SAMAS (160; old or new)
One company of Super SAMAS (160)
One company of Infantry Soldiers (160; most support crews)
Total: 782 combat troops (894)

3) Weapons include LRM's and MRM's, plus Dual Laser Turrets over or next to every bay door and can fire 6 times per melee. Edit: A Rail Gun Turret is also on the top with a two mile range and considerable amount of damage.

4) Take off from the ground takes about 15 minutes; 3d4 minutes in the case of an emergency.

Let's now look at things that I feel are inferred:

1) The interior is built with MDC plating to provide superior support to the crew complement it's supposed to be able to safely transport.

2) A security force of roughly 10% of the combat troops would be held back to protect the Firestorm.

3) While on the ground all power armor held back for the security detachment would be deployed outside of the Firestorm while 50% of Infantry, Juicers, and so on would be deployed outside while the rest are stationed inside.

4) All main hallways are large enough for a cyborg to easily walk down.

Edit:
5) At least two squads (20 total) of Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers would be a part of the security detail, most likely accounted for in the 60 crew.

The situation is that the Firestorm has just unloaded 90% of it's combat troops for some mission and is currently on the ground.

How would an attacking force get inside and take out or steal the Firestorm Mobile Fortress? (Please explain your plan and reference all rules you are using)

Footnote
1: While it doesn't explicitly say this, but the troop compliments seem to infer that this is what the Command Center itself is capable of carrying and as such, the DHT's would likely have troops as well, however for the sake of simplicity let's assume that this troop load out is all that is present.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2016 12:18 am**

I was thinking of having the wild weasles be part of the boarding force hiding inside the Samas bay. But with that range they can really be any where on the battle field. But you want them close to some sort of defense for when some one locates them. Holding off the jamming until just before the attack starts means they will waste time you are attacking trying to find out what happened reducing response time. If timed right they may think a stray shot hit the main comms and waste time looking for a damage report.

The air transport can come in at couple thousand feet and dive straight down limiting detection time. I never assumed it can be stopped the main advantage is the fact that most forces can not shoot at the transports with any accuracy. A ground transport would be easer for dog boys and psi stalkers to mark its location for attack. (I said that was coming in from above was better when I addressed this in the apcs.)

I do not know the exact time to tunnel but based on things are done now it could take days or even weeks to build a tunnel depending on size and distance. magic can reduce this some. (I personally would favor TW air deployment. In all I was listing ways I can think of doing it, looking at choices.)

As to the main CS forces I did say you needed something to tie it down. Hard to do a disorganized retreat when some one is fighting you and waiting for that. They would likely be torn between fallowing last orders given and falling back. There is often a plan for the whole attack in place before the attack starts and radios adjust it and reduce friendly fire. A full retreat caused by lack of communication would make it easy for any one with a jamming skill to stop CS attacks. When comms go down each company commander is going to try to figure out why and what is going on.
They will try alternate channels, and trouble shooting all this waste time. Without the ability to stay talking and organize they would start to loose control resulting in confustion. It would like take a few minutes for them to relies it is not an equipment failure and reach the level of worry that they need to fall back, but lack a quick way to give the order to the grunts. This means they would need to send runners out, or start yelling commands over loud speakers. (I work singal I have seen what happens in company and division talks when coms are interrupted. I would say it will likely take 2-5 minutes for the commander to make up his mind to fall back after he can not restore coms if he decides he needs to. Some commanders will push the attack, some will stop and hold position, others will fall back that is where the chaos comes from each commander making a call with no way to coordinate.). Platoon command will be working to restore command and may send a runner to company command, then relay orders through runners to squads. Squad leaders the SSG(E-6 likely level 6 as well) will be dealing with what is in front of him may know the comms are down has some one work on restoring them while he focus on keeping his troops alive he may fall back if his command is in danger.

The point of the attack helicopters and sky cycles is to decloak blow up heavy forces send grunts in confusion then recloak. I would not have them sit there and mow down the ground forces unless a eye breach has secured weapons control and there was little risk of air defense. By doing this you send forces in confusion and can stager the attackers over time making it hard to tell your numbers. This also reduces the chances of the forces near it being able to quickly scrap it.

Ideally You would want full control of the fortress in under 5 minutes the quicker the better, that is why I think the boarding party may need to be the size of a battalion. Taking of key command locations you would want in under a minute if not in 30 seconds. The longer takes you the greater the chances the commander enters the destruct code. Main boarding force will likely be heavy PA and borgs to mow down defenders with squads pushing in leap frog style from room to room the boarding party should never stop advancing. 6-12 PA can clear a room of up to 24 defenders in 15 seconds. Having troupes spread out from breach point and sweep and clear fast as they can a second squad moves into the next room while the clearing squad confims kills and secures the rear room. Eye breaches are likely done by juicers and crazies they will flood in slower than the a force through a hatch but can go straight for key command brides.

IF need be troops waiting to go in can destroy the roof weapons to take the rail guns out of the picture, or even have some Beefy PA or Supernatural use brute force to stop the gun from aiming.

If they fallowed naval patterns the main command center is close to the center bridge. So with an eye breach you have a chance of capturing the commander, but that would be unlikely. It would give you a chance to gain control over main controls. If this hold up an eye breach could stop entering self destruct code.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2016 1:24 am**

Ok then, let's flip the situation. How would the CS defend the Mobile Fortress from being stolen by a battalion sized foe (or larger) with access to lots of TW enhanced toys (I use the general term "toys" here due to the wide assortment of TW items).

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2016 2:37 am**

I take issue with the hallways of the firestorm being large enough for cyborgs. There is no reason for this. The borgs would be the bays like the rest of the hardware. Their liaison officers would give briefings in the hangar, or the strike troop leaders would be video conferenced in. It's a waste of design space to make everything borg sized.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2016 3:05 am**

Alrik Vas wrote:I take issue with the hallways of the firestorm being large enough for cyborgs. There is no reason for this. The borgs would be the bays like the rest of the hardware. Their liaison officers would give briefings in the hangar, or the strike troop leaders would be video conferenced in. It's a waste of design space to make everything borg sized.

To justfy attacks from borgs and PA being workable or people think borgs may be part of the command. (I would think the hall ways to the command structure and bridges being for standard troops possibly with doors that make it hard for large borgs and PA to squeeze in so you have to clear with infantry.)

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2016 3:19 am**

dragonfett wrote:Ok then, let's flip the situation. How would the CS defend the Mobile Fortress from being stolen by a battalion sized foe (or larger) with access to lots of TW enhanced toys (I use the general term "toys" here due to the wide assortment of TW items).

Defense would likely include placing it at the center of a large camp with over 10K troops. I would place internal automatic defenses in key rooms something the CS does not seam to do. (If you counter a battalion with 5K troops it makes it easer to win.)

A detachment of dog boys and psistalkers. Bring in the Psi-troopers with negating PCCs. To help detect and fight against.

Sealing doors to slow down boarders while opening doors for friendlies.

Use of SF to tag and or sabotage the toys before bringing the firestorm in.

A surprise LRM guided by SF forward observers could cripple vehicle fleets if the defenders lack adequate air defense.
Carpet bomb the city with the TW mages be for you bring in the firestorm then have an observer wait for them to come out then carpet bomb them again.

EOD can boby trap doors and rooms.

Surprise blitz attack to over run the TW forces before they can respawn or launch the attack. (while maintaining security.)

When all else fails blow it up to prevent it from being captured.

In truth capturing it would be allot harder than destroying it, often takes having significant force that can at least fight off the defense force and speed.(there is one Firestorm for every field army 4 divisions, so you can guess what they are bringing when they deploy one) Odds are if it takes longer than 5 minutes to capture it you may not get to capture it. A few things going wrong can cause a failure to capture it. The only force I can think that might have the resources and skill to pull it off would be in the same league as Larson Brigade. Making it a small list of players and few would attempt it.(Lazlo has the manpower and TW but would not want to fight the CS, stormspire has the resources but not the miltiary manpower, black market lacks the origination, Anzo is tied down with vampires and NG lacks the magical resources, so that leaves maybe New Lazlo.)

I am surpised Dog_O_War has not chimed in.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2016 8:16 am**

dragonfett wrote:The situation is that the Firestorm has just unloaded 90% of it's combat troops for some mission and is currently on the ground.

How would an attacking force get inside and take out or steal the Firestorm Mobile Fortress? (Please explain your plan and reference all rules you are using)

Ultimately how an attacking force would operate to achive the goals in part depends on the composition of the attacking force and actual location. For example, Atlantis would operate differently than Naruni, who operate differently than the Gargoyles or NGR or Republic of Japan or New Navy, etc. The approach used in the ruins of Milwaukee will be different than out in some farmland as far as the eye can see. As defined currently one can customize the force for maximum impact to favor one or the other side.

dragonfett wrote:The Mobile Fortress does have one weapon I had failed to take into account, which is a Rail Gun turret that has a 2 mile range and deals considerable damage. Their top priority would most likely be the Wild Weasels if the are in range (the CS would have captured if not outright bought one to learn of their capabilities) then the helicopters, and unlike missiles, the Black Boxes can't jam the video feed for the turret.

Actually the WW Samas can jam the video feed since it can jam missile guidance systems that are non-radar by "send a direct, laser signal to one or two missiles...[skipping over the range] and scramble their targeting to make them veer off target" (WB14pg186). Now range will be an issue here given the stated range of the systems in question, but it would in fact be possible to jam video feed.

Jamming of camera based systems with lasers is viable in the real world, so it would require the character to be "creative" with use of the hardware and other circumstances to reduce the effectiveness of the camera's range, but it could be done (at night, w/cloud cover, etc).

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2016 2:19 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:
dragonfett wrote:The Mobile Fortress does have one weapon I had failed to take into account, which is a Rail Gun turret that has a 2 mile range and deals considerable damage. Their top priority would most likely be the Wild Weasels if the are in range (the CS would have captured if not outright bought one to learn of their capabilities) then the helicopters, and unlike missiles, the Black Boxes can't jam the video feed for the turret.

Actually the WW Samas can jam the video feed since it can jam missile guidance systems that are non-radar by "send a direct, laser signal to one or two missiles...[skipping over the range] and scramble their targeting to make them veer off target" (WB14pg186). Now range will be an issue here given the stated range of the systems in question, but it would in fact be possible to jam video feed.

Jamming of camera based systems with lasers is viable in the real world, so it would require the character to be "creative" with use of the hardware and other circumstances to reduce the effectiveness of the camera's range, but it could be done (at night, w/cloud cover, etc).

No that doesn't prove that the that the WW is scrambling a video feed as the laser could also be interfering with the IR sensor that the missiles are using to track targets.

Blue_Lion wrote:I am surpised Dog_O_War has not chimed in.

I know, right?

Alrik Vas wrote:I take issue with the hallways of the firestorm being large enough for cyborgs. There is no reason for this. The borgs would be the bays like the rest of the hardware. Their liaison officers would give briefings in the hangar, or the strike troop leaders would be video conferenced in. It's a waste of design space to make everything borg sized.

First off, I only said that the main hallways were large enough for full conversion 'borgs to fit through, the service hallways are still normal sized. Secondly, the reason I feel that the main hallways would be big enough to allow 'borgs to walk down is for CS 'Borgs to be able to be posted at key locations (such as the bridge) to defend these locations.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2016 5:03 pm**

I understand your thinking, I just disagree with it.

Posted: **Thu May 12, 2016 8:56 am**

dragonfett wrote:No that doesn't prove that the that the WW is scrambling a video feed as the laser could also be interfering with the IR sensor that the missiles are using to track targets.

You do know that missile guidance systems in the real world come in a variety of forms, including TV/Video. Lasers can also be used to blind normal cameras in the real world to. So I don't see any reason that a WW could not scramble a video feed going off of real world precedents. In game, we also know that you can use laser systems to blind optics (Wilk's Blinder Grenades in WB14pg 209 for example) and the text for the WW system in question does not limit it to IR sensors on a missile as it just treats it as "scanners".

Posted: **Thu May 12, 2016 12:29 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:
dragonfett wrote:No that doesn't prove that the that the WW is scrambling a video feed as the laser could also be interfering with the IR sensor that the missiles are using to track targets.

You do know that missile guidance systems in the real world come in a variety of forms, including TV/Video. Lasers can also be used to blind normal cameras in the real world to. So I don't see any reason that a WW could not scramble a video feed going off of real world precedents. In game, we also know that you can use laser systems to blind optics (Wilk's Blinder Grenades in WB14pg 209 for example) and the text for the WW system in question does not limit it to IR sensors on a missile as it just treats it as "scanners".

While this is true, it also requires GM arbitration. While my initial post does include a few assumptions, they were only to meant to form what were reasonable guidelines of what we are working with. Now if you can cite a rule where it states that lasers can be used to blind normal video feeds, please let me know which book and on what page it can be found on.

Posted: **Thu May 12, 2016 1:09 pm**

I agree there is some degree of GM arbitration, but one that a GM should have no reasonable objection to based on real world precedents. That said I did give an example of laser technology being used to blind sensors in my last post.

Wilk's Blinder Grenades in WB14pg 209 use lasers to create a (temporary) blinding effect and they work on camera systems as "All cameras and optics are also blinded by the sudden intense light (temporarily don't work)" (along with "The Blinder Grenade is designed not to injure, but to blind both men and electronics"), we know they are lasers because "grenades that are designed to use laser technology instead of standard chemical explosive technology." and the part about "The high intensity light beams blind" (which a laser is basically from certain POV, a high intensity beam of light)..

The main drawback though for the WW IMHO isn't an issue of can it do it, it comes down to the range of the system itself, but alternate laser sources exist that could do it to.

Posted: **Thu May 12, 2016 1:36 pm**

Take control of the command Bridge on all the sections.

Nonpsionic operatives using phasefields to enter.

Posted: **Thu May 12, 2016 4:35 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:I agree there is some degree of GM arbitration, but one that a GM should have no reasonable objection to based on real world precedents. That said I did give an example of laser technology being used to blind sensors in my last post.

Wilk's Blinder Grenades in WB14pg 209 use lasers to create a (temporary) blinding effect and they work on camera systems as "All cameras and optics are also blinded by the sudden intense light (temporarily don't work)" (along with "The Blinder Grenade is designed not to injure, but to blind both men and electronics"), we know they are lasers because "grenades that are designed to use laser technology instead of standard chemical explosive technology." and the part about "The high intensity light beams blind" (which a laser is basically from certain POV, a high intensity beam of light)..

The main drawback though for the WW IMHO isn't an issue of can it do it, it comes down to the range of the system itself, but alternate laser sources exist that could do it to.

Blinding a camera with a laser requires the laser be something that the camera can pick up or affects it, if it is a IR beam that the camera can not see or be affected by then it would not blind a camera. The wilks blinder grenade is clearly in the visible spectrum it is like being blinded by a laser pointer. There are also eye safe lasers that are designed not cause blindness. Not all lasers are the same type of light.

The safe bet on if it can be blinded if it says it does I do not recall the wild weasel saying it blinds the missile just use of the laser adds a greater penalty. Although reasonable to make augments based on logic counter logic needs to be addressed.

Posted: **Fri May 13, 2016 9:40 am**

Blue_Lion wrote:Blinding a camera with a laser requires the laser be something that the camera can pick up or affects it, if it is a IR beam that the camera can not see or be affected by then it would not blind a camera. The wilks blinder grenade is clearly in the visible spectrum it is like being blinded by a laser pointer. There are also eye safe lasers that are designed not cause blindness. Not all lasers are the same type of light.

The safe bet on if it can be blinded if it says it does I do not recall the wild weasel saying it blinds the missile just use of the laser adds a greater penalty. Although reasonable to make augments based on logic counter logic needs to be addressed.

Fighting "blind" in numerous places is known to cause penalties, so the WW laser can be said to "blind" the missile's guidance system regardless of type (be it TV/Video, Laser Guided, IR, UV, radar, etc... though a case could be made if it wouldn't work for truely exotic system). Even the Blinder Grenade doesn't limit the optics to only visible-light optics, but all optics and cameras.

So by canon laser systems exist that can disrupt any (reasonably encountered) camera/optic system. Now in RL it may not be quite that simple, but for game purposes it has been rendered that simple. The main issue with the known examples comes down more to effective range than if it can do it though as I've said given the two systems in question are required to be much closer than range of those rail guns.

In any case getting back to the main question at hand...

Blue_Lion wrote:The situation is that the Firestorm has just unloaded 90% of it's combat troops for some mission and is currently on the ground.

How would an attacking force get inside and take out or steal the Firestorm Mobile Fortress? (Please explain your plan and reference all rules you are using)

To Take out a Firestorm Mobile Fortress doesn't necessarily require getting inside... Since the opposing force isn't defined it just requires the right force structure:

Atlantis:
Splurgoth Sea Skimmer (WB7pg185-8) approach with Invisibility: Superior power active, it can fly/hover above ground at an unimpressive altitude and speed. Still they can get to within 2 Miles in its opening salvo it can likely destroy one or both of the BFGs on the Firestorm from the dual main lasers easily enough. If it can close to within 6000ft, a broadside from its two lasers and two plasma cannons... 6d4x100 (600-2400 non-critical). The first broadside would be a surprise attack, and within 15seconds the Firestorm could be toast potentially if they target nothing but the Main Body sections (total 9,000) and that assumes 4 attacks for the gunners and not potential 5 per melee. If the Sea Skimmer chooses its approach correctly, the Firestorm would have to take off in order to bring most of its guns into play (and as indicated it takes 3-12minutes in an emergency) leaving it with one secondary railgun turret (which could be targeted) and its missiles are the only true things they'd have to worry about on the Firestorm (the laser turrets are to weak to do meaningful damage to a Sea Skimmer) and the missiles can be shot down by the Sea Skimmers own deck laser turrets (which are intended for anti-missile duty).

Now the Firestorms deployed forces are an issue, but the Sea Skimmer is likely also operating as part of a larger task force. It is also equipped with roughly 500 suits of various Power Armor types (even if they don't replace the Underseas specific units you are looking at potentially 400suits) and 80 robot class vehicles, plus their assortment of troops. This is in the Warship configuration for crew.

Naruni (Corporate):
Lets say the Naruni decide they want to give the CS some expensive payback, and at an estimated over 1 Billion credit cost to the CS (pg159) for the FSMF alone (plus the hardware inside)... it might be attractive if their investment can be minimized to give the CS some serious financial payback hurt...

How could they do it? Well they could send in a wing (DB#13 has the size at 11 in the Commodity Super Cruiser, so lets go with that) of corporate Fire-Spitter Attack Ships (DB#13) to straffe the thing either by guns (1.5mile range) or drop bombs on the thing (can be dropped from 200miles out). Just one Fire-Spitter if it could drop its entire bomb load and only 1/3 got through would be enough to potentially kill a FSMF.

Then again they could just pop in with a Commodity-Class Naruni Super Cruiser and pop off a few shots with even just one of their the High Energy Plasma Beams and it would be "so long" FSMF, and probably pound surrounding CS hardware and facilities to dust. The main problem is getting the Commodity-Class vessel to Rifts Earth, getting w/n range isn't as difficult as it can fly above 65,000ft and still have the necessary range for the HEPB (which would be ~85,000ft) while being outside the reach of any CS aircraft requiring the CS to use missiles (which it is well equipped to be able to shoot down). Another issue is potential fallout from TPTB that are implied to possibly be holding Splyn/Atlantis back and how they might respond depending on just how far Naruni takes the payback.

Now if the Firestorm was to be captured...
Atlantis (and really any magic using force can duplicate the basic approach):
Use Astral Projection to scout out a teleport location on the hull of the Firestrom that is near the command center (or main bridge). Teleport a sufficient sized force to the hull and use Mystic Portal to create a breach for boarding purposes and enter into or close to the actual command center (or main bridge). You could even send in multiple teams to seize different locations of the FSMF.

Another approach would be Psychic in nature:
Psychic avenue of approach might also work, by Astral Projection for a multi-member force on the physical plane and combining it with other powers that only require line of sight (not touch) to interact with the physical plane (like Telemechanics, Telekinsis, Electrokensis subpowers, Bio-manipulation, etc) in a variety of ways to consider (could fly to high altitude and de-pressurize, shut down power, overload various circuits to neuter the platform's effectiveness, disable the command crew, etc). This though might be subject to GM interpretation.

From a Tech perspective you need to either fight your way to the FSMF fast enough that they can't take off and board her, or sneak a force inside.

Posted: **Sat May 14, 2016 10:36 am**

There's a relatively straightforward way of taking down a Firestorm.

Use Astral Projection to scout the Firestorm and become familiar with its layout. Then Teleport explosives into the critical areas. Takeout the "bridge" and the power plants first, then target secondary systems.

Only downside is the mage will have to be in the general vicinity (if memory serves Teleport Lesser has a range of just a few miles). Which means dodging all the other troops associated with the Firestorm may be tricky, but there's plenty of stealth spells to help with that too.

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2016 4:33 pm**

Astrsl projection with teleport is one of those things the writers don't consider, which is surprising.

I mean, if I were the CS I'd have my psychics playing astral sentry around the clock.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2016 8:52 am**

Malvoren (DoNA pg138-142) or a Machine Person (from Phaseworld main book), either has the capability to merge with the Firestorm mobile fortress making it an extension of their body. The main issue is how to get the Malvoren into place, Teleporting (via magic) them into the FSMF seems doable with Astral Projection scouting. Otherwise you have to figureout a way to get them inside (thinking ambush a CS patrol as a distraction and get a Malvoren/Machineperson to takeover a CS vehicle and disguise themselves as an ordinary CS vehicle to get inside, then separate and sneak into position to take over the FSMF).

Power Leech (DoNA pg161-164, also in Psycape), you probably want multiple members here, but once on board the Firestorm they can cause havoc by disrupting energy reserves in Eclips and nuclear reactor(s). Which could drastically weaken their offensive position depending on how much they can absorb (no power means no railguns, vibroblades, energy weapons, or even missile launchers, they have no power for their communications either). Their energized giant status might also be interesting to ponder as they grow in size, what happens as they fill up available volume inside the FSMF? Does the FSMF become a "shell" they breakout of, or would the FSMF restrict the growth? I'm inclinded to think they can breakout given the effects of the Giant spell. The main trouble is how to get them into position as magic teleportation will need to find away to avoid their defence mechanism (or can a creature with natural teleport take hitch-hikers with them at suitable levels?).

Dirari Eco-Men (DoNA pg66-71). They can retract themselves into the size of a soccer ball (Prowl is at 65% IINM), making them hard to detect visually allowing them an easier time to sneak into CS landing zone and into the FSMF. Their ISP/PPE could give them away to Dogboys/Psi-Stalkers during approach if they don't have the psychic powers to mask ISP/PPE available and active. Once inside depending their option with skills is limited (IINM limited to communication and computer aspects) and even powers if they don't have Telemechanic type powers. I suspect they'd make their way to a (nuclear) reactor control to "force" an evacuation (the cause may be simulated or real) of the FMSF by triggering a melt-down. They might also be able to storm the bridge/command-center and effect a capture, if they have numbers on their side (unlikely I think because of how rare they are) and depending on how the GM attires the bulk of the command-center operatives (are they geared out for combat with weapons and armor, or more likely unarmed and unarmored).

Dragons Most dragons have the ability to Teleport naturally (so we want one of them), and varying levels of psychic powers (which includes Astral Projection). So a Dragon could theoretically scout out a FSMF by Astral Projection, and then teleport themselves into the FSMF. How they operate and what they target of course will depend on their actual abilities (skills, spells, and psychic powers), and any information they might have been given by an outsider on what to look for/target. If we are talking about an Adult Dragon, they can also bring along 2 other boarders (per Dragons & Gods, RUE states a limit for hatchling stage of themself only but doesn't address adult stage) and 1000lb of gear (robot assistance to increase the numbers?). Even worse might be a mated pair since they could target multiple locations on the FSMF, or even just dragons operating as a team (as they do in Lazlo or formerly Tolkeen).

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2016 1:12 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:Blinding a camera with a laser requires the laser be something that the camera can pick up or affects it, if it is a IR beam that the camera can not see or be affected by then it would not blind a camera. The wilks blinder grenade is clearly in the visible spectrum it is like being blinded by a laser pointer. There are also eye safe lasers that are designed not cause blindness. Not all lasers are the same type of light.

The safe bet on if it can be blinded if it says it does I do not recall the wild weasel saying it blinds the missile just use of the laser adds a greater penalty. Although reasonable to make augments based on logic counter logic needs to be addressed.

Fighting "blind" in numerous places is known to cause penalties, so the WW laser can be said to "blind" the missile's guidance system regardless of type (be it TV/Video, Laser Guided, IR, UV, radar, etc... though a case could be made if it wouldn't work for truely exotic system). Even the Blinder Grenade doesn't limit the optics to only visible-light optics, but all optics and cameras.

So by canon laser systems exist that can disrupt any (reasonably encountered) camera/optic system. Now in RL it may not be quite that simple, but for game purposes it has been rendered that simple. The main issue with the known examples comes down more to effective range than if it can do it though as I've said given the two systems in question are required to be much closer than range of those rail guns.

In any case getting back to the main question at hand...
Blue_Lion wrote:The situation is that the Firestorm has just unloaded 90% of it's combat troops for some mission and is currently on the ground.

How would an attacking force get inside and take out or steal the Firestorm Mobile Fortress? (Please explain your plan and reference all rules you are using)

To Take out a Firestorm Mobile Fortress doesn't necessarily require getting inside... Since the opposing force isn't defined it just requires the right force structure:

Atlantis:
Splurgoth Sea Skimmer (WB7pg185-8) approach with Invisibility: Superior power active, it can fly/hover above ground at an unimpressive altitude and speed. Still they can get to within 2 Miles in its opening salvo it can likely destroy one or both of the BFGs on the Firestorm from the dual main lasers easily enough. If it can close to within 6000ft, a broadside from its two lasers and two plasma cannons... 6d4x100 (600-2400 non-critical). The first broadside would be a surprise attack, and within 15seconds the Firestorm could be toast potentially if they target nothing but the Main Body sections (total 9,000) and that assumes 4 attacks for the gunners and not potential 5 per melee. If the Sea Skimmer chooses its approach correctly, the Firestorm would have to take off in order to bring most of its guns into play (and as indicated it takes 3-12minutes in an emergency) leaving it with one secondary railgun turret (which could be targeted) and its missiles are the only true things they'd have to worry about on the Firestorm (the laser turrets are to weak to do meaningful damage to a Sea Skimmer) and the missiles can be shot down by the Sea Skimmers own deck laser turrets (which are intended for anti-missile duty).

Now the Firestorms deployed forces are an issue, but the Sea Skimmer is likely also operating as part of a larger task force. It is also equipped with roughly 500 suits of various Power Armor types (even if they don't replace the Underseas specific units you are looking at potentially 400suits) and 80 robot class vehicles, plus their assortment of troops. This is in the Warship configuration for crew.

Naruni (Corporate):
Lets say the Naruni decide they want to give the CS some expensive payback, and at an estimated over 1 Billion credit cost to the CS (pg159) for the FSMF alone (plus the hardware inside)... it might be attractive if their investment can be minimized to give the CS some serious financial payback hurt...

How could they do it? Well they could send in a wing (DB#13 has the size at 11 in the Commodity Super Cruiser, so lets go with that) of corporate Fire-Spitter Attack Ships (DB#13) to straffe the thing either by guns (1.5mile range) or drop bombs on the thing (can be dropped from 200miles out). Just one Fire-Spitter if it could drop its entire bomb load and only 1/3 got through would be enough to potentially kill a FSMF.

Then again they could just pop in with a Commodity-Class Naruni Super Cruiser and pop off a few shots with even just one of their the High Energy Plasma Beams and it would be "so long" FSMF, and probably pound surrounding CS hardware and facilities to dust. The main problem is getting the Commodity-Class vessel to Rifts Earth, getting w/n range isn't as difficult as it can fly above 65,000ft and still have the necessary range for the HEPB (which would be ~85,000ft) while being outside the reach of any CS aircraft requiring the CS to use missiles (which it is well equipped to be able to shoot down). Another issue is potential fallout from TPTB that are implied to possibly be holding Splyn/Atlantis back and how they might respond depending on just how far Naruni takes the payback.

Now if the Firestorm was to be captured...
Atlantis (and really any magic using force can duplicate the basic approach):
Use Astral Projection to scout out a teleport location on the hull of the Firestrom that is near the command center (or main bridge). Teleport a sufficient sized force to the hull and use Mystic Portal to create a breach for boarding purposes and enter into or close to the actual command center (or main bridge). You could even send in multiple teams to seize different locations of the FSMF.

Another approach would be Psychic in nature:
Psychic avenue of approach might also work, by Astral Projection for a multi-member force on the physical plane and combining it with other powers that only require line of sight (not touch) to interact with the physical plane (like Telemechanics, Telekinsis, Electrokensis subpowers, Bio-manipulation, etc) in a variety of ways to consider (could fly to high altitude and de-pressurize, shut down power, overload various circuits to neuter the platform's effectiveness, disable the command crew, etc). This though might be subject to GM interpretation.

From a Tech perspective you need to either fight your way to the FSMF fast enough that they can't take off and board her, or sneak a force inside.

By the canon only one laser system blinds any optics. It is a system made to blind things, the WW laser jamming booster laser does not say it blinds the missile. PB uses lasers boosters for RF radios so this could be just focused jamming and not blinding. Use of the system to blind cameras would be worth mentioning if it was possible as every robot has them.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2016 1:12 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:Blinding a camera with a laser requires the laser be something that the camera can pick up or affects it, if it is a IR beam that the camera can not see or be affected by then it would not blind a camera. The wilks blinder grenade is clearly in the visible spectrum it is like being blinded by a laser pointer. There are also eye safe lasers that are designed not cause blindness. Not all lasers are the same type of light.

The safe bet on if it can be blinded if it says it does I do not recall the wild weasel saying it blinds the missile just use of the laser adds a greater penalty. Although reasonable to make augments based on logic counter logic needs to be addressed.

Fighting "blind" in numerous places is known to cause penalties, so the WW laser can be said to "blind" the missile's guidance system regardless of type (be it TV/Video, Laser Guided, IR, UV, radar, etc... though a case could be made if it wouldn't work for truely exotic system). Even the Blinder Grenade doesn't limit the optics to only visible-light optics, but all optics and cameras.

So by canon laser systems exist that can disrupt any (reasonably encountered) camera/optic system. Now in RL it may not be quite that simple, but for game purposes it has been rendered that simple. The main issue with the known examples comes down more to effective range than if it can do it though as I've said given the two systems in question are required to be much closer than range of those rail guns.

In any case getting back to the main question at hand...
Blue_Lion wrote:The situation is that the Firestorm has just unloaded 90% of it's combat troops for some mission and is currently on the ground.

How would an attacking force get inside and take out or steal the Firestorm Mobile Fortress? (Please explain your plan and reference all rules you are using)

To Take out a Firestorm Mobile Fortress doesn't necessarily require getting inside... Since the opposing force isn't defined it just requires the right force structure:

Atlantis:
Splurgoth Sea Skimmer (WB7pg185-8) approach with Invisibility: Superior power active, it can fly/hover above ground at an unimpressive altitude and speed. Still they can get to within 2 Miles in its opening salvo it can likely destroy one or both of the BFGs on the Firestorm from the dual main lasers easily enough. If it can close to within 6000ft, a broadside from its two lasers and two plasma cannons... 6d4x100 (600-2400 non-critical). The first broadside would be a surprise attack, and within 15seconds the Firestorm could be toast potentially if they target nothing but the Main Body sections (total 9,000) and that assumes 4 attacks for the gunners and not potential 5 per melee. If the Sea Skimmer chooses its approach correctly, the Firestorm would have to take off in order to bring most of its guns into play (and as indicated it takes 3-12minutes in an emergency) leaving it with one secondary railgun turret (which could be targeted) and its missiles are the only true things they'd have to worry about on the Firestorm (the laser turrets are to weak to do meaningful damage to a Sea Skimmer) and the missiles can be shot down by the Sea Skimmers own deck laser turrets (which are intended for anti-missile duty).

Now the Firestorms deployed forces are an issue, but the Sea Skimmer is likely also operating as part of a larger task force. It is also equipped with roughly 500 suits of various Power Armor types (even if they don't replace the Underseas specific units you are looking at potentially 400suits) and 80 robot class vehicles, plus their assortment of troops. This is in the Warship configuration for crew.

Naruni (Corporate):
Lets say the Naruni decide they want to give the CS some expensive payback, and at an estimated over 1 Billion credit cost to the CS (pg159) for the FSMF alone (plus the hardware inside)... it might be attractive if their investment can be minimized to give the CS some serious financial payback hurt...

How could they do it? Well they could send in a wing (DB#13 has the size at 11 in the Commodity Super Cruiser, so lets go with that) of corporate Fire-Spitter Attack Ships (DB#13) to straffe the thing either by guns (1.5mile range) or drop bombs on the thing (can be dropped from 200miles out). Just one Fire-Spitter if it could drop its entire bomb load and only 1/3 got through would be enough to potentially kill a FSMF.

Then again they could just pop in with a Commodity-Class Naruni Super Cruiser and pop off a few shots with even just one of their the High Energy Plasma Beams and it would be "so long" FSMF, and probably pound surrounding CS hardware and facilities to dust. The main problem is getting the Commodity-Class vessel to Rifts Earth, getting w/n range isn't as difficult as it can fly above 65,000ft and still have the necessary range for the HEPB (which would be ~85,000ft) while being outside the reach of any CS aircraft requiring the CS to use missiles (which it is well equipped to be able to shoot down). Another issue is potential fallout from TPTB that are implied to possibly be holding Splyn/Atlantis back and how they might respond depending on just how far Naruni takes the payback.

Now if the Firestorm was to be captured...
Atlantis (and really any magic using force can duplicate the basic approach):
Use Astral Projection to scout out a teleport location on the hull of the Firestrom that is near the command center (or main bridge). Teleport a sufficient sized force to the hull and use Mystic Portal to create a breach for boarding purposes and enter into or close to the actual command center (or main bridge). You could even send in multiple teams to seize different locations of the FSMF.

Another approach would be Psychic in nature:
Psychic avenue of approach might also work, by Astral Projection for a multi-member force on the physical plane and combining it with other powers that only require line of sight (not touch) to interact with the physical plane (like Telemechanics, Telekinsis, Electrokensis subpowers, Bio-manipulation, etc) in a variety of ways to consider (could fly to high altitude and de-pressurize, shut down power, overload various circuits to neuter the platform's effectiveness, disable the command crew, etc). This though might be subject to GM interpretation.

From a Tech perspective you need to either fight your way to the FSMF fast enough that they can't take off and board her, or sneak a force inside.

By the canon only one laser system blinds any optics. It is a system made to blind things, the WW laser jamming booster laser does not say it blinds the missile. PB uses lasers boosters for RF radios so this could be just focused jamming and not blinding. Use of the system to blind cameras would be worth mentioning if it was possible as every robot has them.

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2016 7:31 am**

The description of the WW system is that it scrambles or jams the guidance system (likely by blinding the optic sensors involved with the laser or using radio jamming to handle radio/radar), which is effectively the same as blinding the target (penalties are w/n the range of "fighting blind" in places). Real world precedent allows for lasers to be used to "jam" or "blind" optical cameras even by systems not intended for it, and by canon there are two systems designed for the purpose, but that doesn't mean that others can't be used for the same purpose as it would be like in-game going you can't use a hand tool as a weapon because it isn't addressed in the rules.

In any case this is going to fall on the GM to decide if real world precedent applies. Can we get back to the main topic at hand.

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2016 1:23 pm**

The topic at hand being how to take it from the inside, not how to assault one.

I vote for seduce the commander.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2016 1:01 am**

Alrik Vas wrote:The topic at hand being how to take it from the inside, not how to assault one.

I vote for seduce the commander.

Impressive.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2016 5:33 am**

Alrik Vas wrote:The topic at hand being how to take it from the inside, not how to assault one.

I vote for seduce the commander.

There ya go!

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2016 10:46 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:The topic at hand being how to take it from the inside, not how to assault one.

I vote for seduce the commander.

There ya go!

Isn't there a shapeshifter that can create an exact duplicate if it has a sample of the targets genetic material? One of these + a brothel and the base is pwned.

Posted: **Thu May 19, 2016 11:36 pm**

Really, any mid-level mage class with Demolitions and a supply of explosives can do it solo, within a few hours. Maybe a day or two at most.

There is a relatively low-level combination of spells that make a mage 100% invisible to anything the CS has (visually invisible, invisible to Dog Boys/Magic/Psi Stalkers/Psionics, and invisible to sensors); he could go in and look around at will, figure out where the booms need to go, and come back and place them when he was ready. Or.. simply arm them, wrap them in Carpet of Adhesion, and Teleport: Lesser them into place from miles away.

Boom.

Done.

May not slag the whole thing, but could probably scuttle the reactor(s) and command areas other than perhaps the bridge itself.

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 4:12 am**

Ed wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:The topic at hand being how to take it from the inside, not how to assault one.

I vote for seduce the commander.

There ya go!

Isn't there a shapeshifter that can create an exact duplicate if it has a sample of the targets genetic material? One of these + a brothel and the base is pwned.

That's the auto-g and the CS can detect them with a blood test... at the least.

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 12:05 pm**

Use Sparklits to possess the Dog Boys, who then covertly bring more Sparklits into the FMF for use on the humans once they're not in armor.

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 12:13 pm**

The Beast wrote:Use Sparklits to possess the Dog Boys, who then covertly bring more Sparklits into the FMF for use on the humans once they're not in armor.

What book are the Sparklits from?

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 12:20 pm**

dragonfett wrote:
The Beast wrote:Use Sparklits to possess the Dog Boys, who then covertly bring more Sparklits into the FMF for use on the humans once they're not in armor.

What book are the Sparklits from?

DB12

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 12:32 pm**

The Beast wrote:
dragonfett wrote:
The Beast wrote:Use Sparklits to possess the Dog Boys, who then covertly bring more Sparklits into the FMF for use on the humans once they're not in armor.

What book are the Sparklits from?

DB12

What page?

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 12:53 pm**

dragonfett wrote:
The Beast wrote:
dragonfett wrote:
The Beast wrote:Use Sparklits to possess the Dog Boys, who then covertly bring more Sparklits into the FMF for use on the humans once they're not in armor.

What book are the Sparklits from?

DB12

What page?

169

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 2:01 pm**

What's their favorite color?

Daniel Stoker

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 2:04 pm**

Daniel Stoker wrote:What's their favorite color?

Daniel Stoker

Green - NO, RED!

Posted: **Fri May 20, 2016 6:05 pm**

Use a Titan's main gun.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 12:09 am**

Slight001 wrote:
Ed wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:The topic at hand being how to take it from the inside, not how to assault one.

I vote for seduce the commander.

There ya go!

Isn't there a shapeshifter that can create an exact duplicate if it has a sample of the targets genetic material? One of these + a brothel and the base is pwned.

That's the auto-g and the CS can detect them with a blood test... at the least.

How practical is blood screening the CO every time he comes back from leave?

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 12:24 am**

Ed wrote:How practical is blood screening the CO every time he comes back from leave?

Not even Leave, every time he comes back from the head.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 2:15 am**

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Ed wrote:How practical is blood screening the CO every time he comes back from leave?

Not even Leave, every time he comes back from the head.

What if they CO had a identical twin...

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 8:33 am**

say652 wrote:Take control of the command Bridge on all the sections.

Nonpsionic operatives using phasefields to enter.

Phase technology and powers though are more of a Phaseworld thing, and aren't necessarily easy to come by on Rifts Earth (or general super powers). In RE-NA Astral Projection users are likely more common, but then you can't bring stuff along with you. However there are options that can and are known to be in the region the CS is likely to be encountered like the D-Bee Fenndoi (New west/DoNA) and mutant humans like the Psi-Ghost (Psycape) who could phase-out of the physical plane by different means and take a payload with them. If they go an night they likely have an easier time to infiltrate as their semitransparent nature leaves them vulnerable to visual detection.

The Beast wrote:Use Sparklits to possess the Dog Boys, who then covertly bring more Sparklits into the FMF for use on the humans once they're not in armor.

Alternatively you could use a colony of Psymbiotes (from Psycape pg105-108) to take over everyone (or a faction) on the FSMF by becoming hosts or stage a coup after they reach a certain population size. They don't even need to start with psychics/dog-boys given their "Imperceptible Aura" ability, so dogboys and other psychics aren't going to be able to detect it easily IINM. This can allow a slow build-up/infiltration before they make their move to take control of the FSMF, which could be in the form of a coup or having them then surrender to a supporting force.

Then again Atlantis (or the Gene-Splicers/Gene Tech if they can get their hands on the stuff somehow) create a "weaponized" delivery system for Mind Slugs, Zombitrons (WB2 pg116-7) and Stasirobes (WB2 pg113) for "biological warfare" to pacify the FSMF troops, allowing another force to swoop in and capture them with limited resistance (if any). You don't even need to use all of them in a single package, but could pick one (I'd rank them as most likely as Stasirobes, Zombitrons, Mind Slugs) to focus on. The main defence the CS has would be their EBA, but they are not likely in their EBA 24/7 (and I would think that Dogboys would lose their sense of smell abilities).

Ed wrote:How practical is blood screening the CO every time he comes back from leave?

Not very I suspect, because you still leave yourself vulnerable to initial infiltration by the Auto-G coming in as another person and then moving up the ranks by acquiring genetic material. It is worse than Colonel_Tetsuya suggests, you might have to administer the blood test after anytime an individual was left alone. You also have to make sure the tests can't be "neutralized" somehow allowing them to move about easier.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 10:12 am**

ShadowLogan wrote:
The Beast wrote:Use Sparklits to possess the Dog Boys, who then covertly bring more Sparklits into the FMF for use on the humans once they're not in armor.

Alternatively you could use a colony of Psymbiotes (from Psycape pg105-108) to take over everyone (or a faction) on the FSMF by becoming hosts or stage a coup after they reach a certain population size. They don't even need to start with psychics/dog-boys given their "Imperceptible Aura" ability, so dogboys and other psychics aren't going to be able to detect it easily IINM. This can allow a slow build-up/infiltration before they make their move to take control of the FSMF, which could be in the form of a coup or having them then surrender to a supporting force.

Then again Atlantis (or the Gene-Splicers/Gene Tech if they can get their hands on the stuff somehow) create a "weaponized" delivery system for Mind Slugs, Zombitrons (WB2 pg116-7) and Stasirobes (WB2 pg113) for "biological warfare" to pacify the FSMF troops, allowing another force to swoop in and capture them with limited resistance (if any). You don't even need to use all of them in a single package, but could pick one (I'd rank them as most likely as Stasirobes, Zombitrons, Mind Slugs) to focus on. The main defence the CS has would be their EBA, but they are not likely in their EBA 24/7 (and I would think that Dogboys would lose their sense of smell abilities).

IIRC, they're not given full EPA due to their smell, and because they're not human. Hence why I targeted them first.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 12:09 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:
Ed wrote:How practical is blood screening the CO every time he comes back from leave?

Not very I suspect, because you still leave yourself vulnerable to initial infiltration by the Auto-G coming in as another person and then moving up the ranks by acquiring genetic material. It is worse than Colonel_Tetsuya suggests, you might have to administer the blood test after anytime an individual was left alone. You also have to make sure the tests can't be "neutralized" somehow allowing them to move about easier.

True though the blood test could be as simple as pricked finger. IIRC the info on the auto-g on mentions the existence of a blood based screening test it doesn't mention anything else so it immediately goes into the realm of the house rules and GM fiat as that is all any of it will ever be. That said given my knowledge of blood testing and the direction current R&D is going for with quick easy tests that can be performed 'in the field' I can easily see the CS having something as simple as a biometric reader that also samples your blood for routine checks of drugs, disease, and infiltration for any individuals returning from leave. Like I said though this is all GM fiat.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 2:05 pm**

From an Archie-3 perspective...

He could reprogram a skelebot (which canon text indicates he has done, turning into a spy for him) and use it to deliver malware to the FSMF, which could possibly be spread to other computerized units that are connected to the FSMF. And when the time is right, the malware springs into action in any number of ways that could be effective.

And if Archie-3 can do it, then it stands to reason other more advanced powers on the planet could also duplicate the feat (Triax, Japan, Kittani).

The Beast wrote:IIRC, they're not given full EPA due to their smell, and because they're not human. Hence why I targeted them first.

EPA? We don't have to get the Environmental Protection Agency to shut down the protection grid for this to work do we? -jk

But yes, depending on the method of infiltration Dog Boys may need to be taken out first.

Slight001 wrote:True though the blood test could be as simple as pricked finger. IIRC the info on the auto-g on mentions the existence of a blood based screening test it doesn't mention anything else so it immediately goes into the realm of the house rules and GM fiat as that is all any of it will ever be. That said given my knowledge of blood testing and the direction current R&D is going for with quick easy tests that can be performed 'in the field' I can easily see the CS having something as simple as a biometric reader that also samples your blood for routine checks of drugs, disease, and infiltration for any individuals returning from leave. Like I said though this is all GM fiat.

The text in DoNA is clear that the test is simple, but still takes a few minutes.

Still if an Auto-G can become the one administering the test, or even tamper with the test apparatus, they could give false readings and finger "real" humans.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 2:57 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:RE-NA Astral Projection users are likely more common, but then you can't bring stuff along with you. However there are options that can and are known to be in the region the CS is likely to be encountered like the D-Bee Fenndoi (New west/DoNA) and mutant humans like the Psi-Ghost (Psycape) who could phase-out of the physical plane by different means and take a payload with them. If they go an night they likely have an easier time to infiltrate as their semitransparent nature leaves them vulnerable to visual detection.

The benefit of Astral Projection isn't about taking a payload with you, it's about becoming familiar enough with an area inside the FMF to use Teleport: Lesser to teleport a payload in at a later time. It's cheap, has a long range (5 miles/level) and relatively accurate. Boom. The only hard part is getting enough explosives to do the job.

Not very I suspect, because you still leave yourself vulnerable to initial infiltration by the Auto-G coming in as another person and then moving up the ranks by acquiring genetic material. It is worse than Colonel_Tetsuya suggests, you might have to administer the blood test after anytime an individual was left alone. You also have to make sure the tests can't be "neutralized" somehow allowing them to move about easier.

That's what makes an Auto-G scary. If the FMF has a large camp around it, one guy goes missing on his way to the head. Then the Auto-G grabs someone else who is higher rank.. etc... till he's got access to the interior of the FMF and maybe the CO.... played well, it could all be over before anyone even suspected an Auto-G might be onboard.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 4:24 pm**

The benefit of Astral Projection isn't about taking a payload with you, it's about becoming familiar enough with an area inside the FMF to use Teleport: Lesser to teleport a payload in at a later time. It's cheap, has a long range (5 miles/level) and relatively accurate. Boom. The only hard part is getting enough explosives to do the job.

Don't get me wrong I understand the advantages of Astral Projection and Teleport here. However, the combo has the potential to look like a "best guess" compared to a Psi-Ghost (who I see as more likely to perform the mission than a Fennodi due to the way they are written IIRC). You could theoretically teleport/rift in a strike team to engage the FSMF from the inside, which is one area where this has potential strength over the "phase-like" approach since the individuals who can do it are rare.

The benefit though of using the "phase-like" powers of the Fennodi or Psi-Ghost is that they can use the FSMF's own armory to accomplish the mission. Combine that with telemechanics (which all Psi-Ghosts have) and can literally place those explosives for maximum effect in many cases I would suspect. It has the benefit of being a "spur of the moment" type operation, where the AP/T:L gig requires preparation to acquire the necessary explosives (which the CS could get wind of). And IMHO a bit of poetic justice to see the CS force done in by their own weapons.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 6:34 pm**

But sniffers are still a problem for a psi-ghost, while teleporting bombs in while to fortress is settled and immobile can be less dangerous and if properly scouted, fairly accurate.

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2016 1:25 am**

I cant really get any more specific without an actual scenario to work with.

What is the level/composition of our party?
What is the circumstance that requires a Firestorm to be dealt with?
- is it urgent, like, we have to kill this thing now before it crushes us?
What are the resources of our party (how much ordinance do we have, etc, money, availability of resources)?
Is it grounded with its accompanying Field Army encamped around it?
Did it just drop in as a forward-assault platform with its troops, preparing the way for the army to come?

etc.

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