Fire Ball vs Call Lightning

[RavenStarver]

Okay, reading through the Fantasy 2nd ed book and it looks like Call is lightyears better than Fireball.
Better range, harder to dodge, why would you pick fireball other than it's fire and players always love fire?
Am I missing something? It says "Creates a large fire ball". Would that imply that it could hit multiple people?

[ShadowLogan]

"large" ball of fire doesn't necessarily imply that it could hit multiple people, it could just indicate that it is more soccer ball size instead of golf ball size.

As for why pick Fire over Lightning: Fire is cheaper than Lighnting in terms of PPE cost. So unless range is needed, you will be able to fire off 3 Fireballs for every 2 Call Lightning. It should also be noted that Firebolt is better than Fireball & Call Lightning for several levels and location (its damage is fixed where the others grow), and Bolt is better in range than ball but not as good as lightning. my $0.02.

[Glistam]

Also, it's aesthetics. Some people just want to watch the world burn.

[Library Ogre]

Yeah, fire ball is significantly underpowered for its level.

[RavenStarver]

Yeah, fire ball is significantly underpowered for its level.

To house-rule? Or not to house-rule?
That is the question?

Probably not too big of a deal, there's no casters in the party, I was just writing up some enemies. A secret society who train their soldiers with various spell and psionic abilities, and I had this idea of when they finally launch an attack they just rain fire from the rooftops.

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, fire ball is significantly underpowered for its level.

To house-rule? Or not to house-rule?
That is the question?

Probably not too big of a deal, there's no casters in the party, I was just writing up some enemies. A secret society who train their soldiers with various spell and psionic abilities, and I had this idea of when they finally launch an attack they just rain fire from the rooftops.[/quote]
[quote="RavenStarver"]
At first level yes Fireball is under powered compared to Fire Bolt, and continues to be until Level 5 (in PF2E, Level 6 in Rifts/UE).

If you are looking to rain fire down from the rooftops, Firebolt makes more sense if you are looking to keep it to "low level spells". Otherwise the Level 7 Ballistic Fire (RUE pg211, also in BoM and FoMo) might make more sense for the role you are looking for (Dodge at -10 and no bonuses are applicable, much longer reach, and can target multiples at higher level). Or Level 10's Meteor, the main drawback though is PPE cost here. Alternatively you could look to create a spell variant of Fireball via Nightbane rules (I'm not familiar with them, but I know they exist).

[Library Ogre]

Yeah, fire ball is significantly underpowered for its level.

To house-rule? Or not to house-rule?
That is the question?

Probably not too big of a deal, there's no casters in the party, I was just writing up some enemies. A secret society who train their soldiers with various spell and psionic abilities, and I had this idea of when they finally launch an attack they just rain fire from the rooftops.

If they're using it from ambush, a higher-level spell is a not-bad option. However, it's just a matter of the spells being very different and not well balanced against each other. Personally, I think even adding a 5' splash to fireball makes it worth it without becoming an uber-spell... suddenly, it will hit multiple targets in a pretty small AoE, possibly setting fires, but it also means you have to be careful with it.

[Glistam]

Yeah, fire ball is significantly underpowered for its level.

Use the Nightbane versions of Fireball and Call Lightning then, and just convert those damages 1:1 from S.D.C. to M.D.C..

[RavenStarver]

Yeah, fire ball is significantly underpowered for its level.

Use the Nightbane versions of Fireball and Call Lightning then, and just convert those damages 1:1 from S.D.C. to M.D.C..

Wow. Night bane magic is much beefier than the Fantasy spells.

[Axelmania]

why would you pick fireball other than it's fire and players always love fire?

It costs less PPE to cast, for one. You might be conserving it for other stuff.

Some enemies also take extra damage from fire or are only immune to electricity/lightning.

Call Lightning also arguably requires a path from an open sky to your target, so it shouldn't work indoors unless there's an open window. Fireball requires a path from your hand, you could use it underground and stuff, unlike CL.

It also might be the only spell you know, maybe it was all you could figure out on your own or the only spell the alchemist was selling.

If I were giving out spell scrolls to my underlings I might also prefer to give them fireball scrolls instead of lightning ones to prevent them from doing long range attacks against me.

[ShadowLogan]

why would you pick fireball other than it's fire and players always love fire?

It costs less PPE to cast, for one. You might be conserving it for other stuff.

Some enemies also take extra damage from fire or are only immune to electricity/lightning.

Call Lightning also arguably requires a path from an open sky to your target, so it shouldn't work indoors unless there's an open window. Fireball requires a path from your hand, you could use it underground and stuff, unlike CL.

It also might be the only spell you know, maybe it was all you could figure out on your own or the only spell the alchemist was selling.

If I were giving out spell scrolls to my underlings I might also prefer to give them fireball scrolls instead of lightning ones to prevent them from doing long range attacks against me.

While it costs less PPE to cast, Call Lightning is more accurate (24 to dodge vs 18) and has longer range (more than x3) for and extra 5 PPE. So the PPE cost may be worth it.

Immune/resistant to fire IINM may be more common than immunity/resistance to electricity/lightning, giving Call lightning another advantage. Though I do believe you are correct that there might be more vulnerable to fire rather than electricity at the same time.

Call LIghtning per the description in the book "This magic can be cast outdoors or in", with no requirement for a clear path (no need for an open window). So it would appear to function indoors just fine, as a GM (or even player assumptions) that is possible to require a path, but by the text it does not seem required.

[Zer0 Kay]

Don't forget that if you use logic to the cant cast a spell from the inside of a vehicle bit it is likely referring to direct fire spells. So you cant cast fireball from inside a vehicle to a location outside unless it is out an opening. Call lightning comes from the sky to a target you point at, assuming your GM isn't a smartposterior he wont assume the magic spell thinks your pointing at the windshield and will instead have it strike your target outside the vehicle.

[Killer Cyborg]

Originally Call Lightning was balanced due to needing to be cast outdoors.
But people complained or something, and that got changed.

[Zer0 Kay]

Originally Call Lightning was balanced due to needing to be cast outdoors.
But people complained or something, and that got changed.

I still only allow it outdoors, but from the inside of a vehicle to a target outside or from inside a house, cave, castle or other structure to a target that is standing outside is allowed.

[Axelmania]

While it costs less PPE to cast, Call Lightning is more accurate (24 to dodge vs 18) and has longer range (more than x3) for and extra 5 PPE. So the PPE cost may be worth it.

Of course, it all depends on the variables. Like: is your opponent a good dodger? Are they far away?

Immune/resistant to fire IINM may be more common than immunity/resistance to electricity/lightning, giving Call lightning another advantage. Though I do believe you are correct that there might be more vulnerable to fire rather than electricity at the same time.

Scarecrows and Zappers

Call LIghtning per the description in the book "This magic can be cast outdoors or in", with no requirement for a clear path (no need for an open window). So it would appear to function indoors just fine, as a GM (or even player assumptions) that is possible to require a path, but by the text it does not seem required.

A path is obviously required. Indoors just means that MAYBE the lightning will come in through an open window, or (stretching it even more) break through the wall if it's SDC. If you're sealed in an MDC cube you're out of luck though, lightning will hit that instead just as if you were trying to cast a fireball from inside a vehicle at someone outside of it.

I believe the indoor casting is more like you would be inside a house casting the spell on people you see outside of the house. Unlike lobbing fireballs you wouldn't need to crack a window to hit them since the spell is originating outdoors.

Originally Call Lightning was balanced due to needing to be cast outdoors.
But people complained or something, and that got changed.

Naw it works as it always did. Being able to cast from indoors (something it could always do) is different from being able to cast at a target indoors. Though that's maybe possible if there's some kind of path (lightning can arc around) or weak barriers.

[Ice Dragon]

On a first look the Cal Lightning spell is more powerful than Fire Ball spell. On a second look Call Lightning is more powerful after level 5 and fire ball has the same power starting at level 1. Some creatures are vulnerable to fire. Then it depends on style and personal outlook of the character.

[ShadowLogan]

A path is obviously required. Indoors just means that MAYBE the lightning will come in through an open window, or (stretching it even more) break through the wall if it's SDC. If you're sealed in an MDC cube you're out of luck though, lightning will hit that instead just as if you were trying to cast a fireball from inside a vehicle at someone outside of it.

I believe the indoor casting is more like you would be inside a house casting the spell on people you see outside of the house. Unlike lobbing fireballs you wouldn't need to crack a window to hit them since the spell is originating outdoors.

A path is required, but nothing in the Call Lightning text description requires that it come in through an open window. For all we know the spell opens a "rift"/portal just above them that the bolt emerges from making the location specifics meaningless.

[Voodoolaw]

On a first look the Cal Lightning spell is more powerful than Fire Ball spell. On a second look Call Lightning is more powerful after level 5 and fire ball has the same power starting at level 1. Some creatures are vulnerable to fire. Then it depends on style and personal outlook of the character.

Fire Ball (1d4 MD per lvl) or Fire Bolt (4d6? MD)?

Might have 'em mixed up.

[Axelmania]

but nothing in the Call Lightning text description requires that it come in through an open window. For all we know the spell opens a "rift"/portal just above them that the bolt emerges from making the location specifics meaningless.

If that were the case it would say the lightning comes from a rift, not from the sky.

[eliakon]

It jus says it "comes from the sky"
It doesn't say how high in the sky. Real lightning comes from the sky too... This seems to do that, just lower down if needed. Since the spell does not put any limitations on where it can be cast, and in fact delimits things by saying it can be cast indoors. Note that there is no restriction what so ever on that indoors. Which means that it can be safely assumed to be able to be cast in any official location in the books (I would check to see where it is actually used but meh). Those locations include castles, underground ruins, and the like. As a few of the races that can get access this spell naturally lives in underground ruins and tunnels it would seem to be a pretty big issue to mention that their spell does not work in their homes and native environments.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Some fireball variant spells from before the Message board change.

Bouncing Fire Ball
Level: 6
Range: 90’
Duration: 1 melee
Damage: 4d6+1d6 SDC per level (1d4 MD per level)
Saving Throw: Dodge, -2 to dodge the initial shot, -6 to dodge all subsequent shots
PPE: 17
The spell caster creates a fire ball which after hitting its initial target can strike one additional target per level. Unlike other Fire Balls, a Bouncing Fire Ball must be aimed. The caster is +3 to strike, -1 for each additional target. If the mage misses any of his ricochet shots, the spell ends.

Burning Fire Ball
Level: 7
Range: 90’
Duration: 1 melee per level
Damage: 1d8 SDC/1d4 MD per level
Saving Throw: Dodge, must roll an 18 or higher
PPE: 25
The spell caster creates a large fire ball which he can hurl at a target, inflicting 1d4 MD per level. The spell continues to deal damage for one melee per level. Rolling in the dirt will put out the flames, but water will not. The fire ball effects a 1’ area per level of experience.

Explosive Fire Ball
Level: 7
Range: 90'
Damage: 5d6+1d6 SDC per level (1d6 MD per level)
Saving Throw: Dodge, must roll an 18 or higher.
PPE: 25
The spell caster creates a large fire ball that explodes on contact with its target. In addition to the damage, the explosion has a 01-40% chance of knocking victims off their feet. The explosion affects a 10' radius.

Ranged Fire Ball
Level: 6
Range: 300'+100' per level
Damage: 1d8 SDC/1d4 MD per level
Saving Throw: Dodge, must roll an 18 or higher
PPE: 20
The spell caster creates a large fire ball that can be hurled at a target with awesome speed. As it flies through the air, the fire ball makes a high pitched whistling noise.
_________________
Kittenstomp,

[Mack]

Looking at the Rifts GMG version of Call Lightning (p111) and the RUE version (p211), both describe it as "shoots down from the sky." And neither refer to being indoors, just that the target must be within the caster's line of vision.

Based on those identical descriptions, I'd say the target should be outdoors. If cast against an indoor target, the bolt would come down from the sky and hit the building's roof. If the roof is SDC, then I'd allow the MDC bolt to penetrate down to the target.

As for Fire Ball vs Call Lightning, both are tools in the toolbox. Both have their uses. If I had to pick just one, it would probably be Call Lightning for the extra damage & range.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Cal lighting text says…quoting... "This magic ca be cast outdoors and in: damage is inflicted only to the specific person or target." (PF2 MB page 198)

[eliakon]

Which tells us that the PF version and the Rifts version of the spell may not be the same spell
It happens you know. Each game uses the same names for spells... but tweaks the spell slightly to have different results that match the game line in question.
This may just be yet another example of this.

[Marcethus]

Which tells us that the PF version and the Rifts version of the spell may not be the same spell
It happens you know. Each game uses the same names for spells... but tweaks the spell slightly to have different results that match the game line in question.
This may just be yet another example of this.

Just look at the Nightbane version of both spells for real good showing of that.

I also think that adding an AoE to Fireball wouldn't be a bad idea. Like someones above 5ft or possibly up to 10 or 15ft.

[Killer Cyborg]

Originally the Call a Lightning spell didn't mention being able to be cast indoors, and the nature of lightning indicated that the spell was only really effective outdoors.
It balanced nicely against Fire Ball then, but later editions allowed Call Lightning to be cast indoors, which threw the balance off.

[ShadowLogan]

but nothing in the Call Lightning text description requires that it come in through an open window. For all we know the spell opens a "rift"/portal just above them that the bolt emerges from making the location specifics meaningless.

If that were the case it would say the lightning comes from a rift, not from the sky.

The text as it stands currently in RUE, RMB, PF2E, Rifts BoM, 1E RT Sentinels, TMNT Transdimensional Turtles, and HU2E does not limit the casting to outside, it either omits any mention of where it can or cannot be cast or it states it can be cast outside or in. Given that examples that include the ability to cast it inside also describe it coming down from the "sky" that could mean above the target either as eliakon suggested or via a portal that the bolt travels down ward from.

[Killer Cyborg]

Lightning comes from the sky.
Do we really need to post a source for that...?
Or for the definition of the word "Sky?"

It's entirely safe to say that when KS wrote up Call Lightning, he originally pictured it coming from a normal cloud in the sky, high above the Earth, at normal cloud height, NOT coming from the "sky" inside a room with 9' ceilings.

Later, they changed things.
No biggie, except that the spell is less balanced against Fire Ball now.
Which is still no biggie.

[Mack]

Additional data point:

Firing up the WAYBAK machine and looking at my RMB (Third Printing, May 1991) it has the same description as the BoM and RUE. No mention of indoors, and the "bolt shoots down from the sky."

[drewkitty ~..~]

I looked at the PF1 Call lighting (found in the Warlock spells) and except for the range numbers and how the d6 is written and type of damage, (and converting it to the PPE system) the invocation text is word for word the same as that in the RBoM.

However, when you look at the Warlock Call Lighting in the RBoM it is (except for range and type of damage)….it is worded the same as the PF invocation. Except for when it talks about whether or not a target can dodge/make a saving-throw

The RBoM Warlock & PF2 Warlock Call Lightning spells share the exact same spell text. (even if the range and type of damage are different.)

So across four current canon Call Lightning spells; in the two major settings, there are four different variants of the spell.

[Marcethus]

Nightbane Main book also has the same text about it coming out of the sky.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Just for some clarity ...

The Rifts, NB, PF2, and HU2 versions all mention "shoots down from the sky." That part of the spell remains consistent across most of the game lines (not BtS1 version, which seems to function almost entirely different). I don't think that's in dispute here (so multiple postersr just quoting it over and over doesn't really prove anything).

The main difference is that the PF2 and the HU2 versions also add "can be cast outdoors or in." PF2 and HU2 tend to share the same wording on spells, at least in my experience as Carpet of Adhesion (which fixes the 30ft+10ft per level vs only 90 feet away issue present in Rifts) comes to mind. I'm guessing one was copy and pasted from the other (I forget which 2nd Edition came first though). Whether or not the line about it being cast outdoors or in affecting other game lines is uncertain. Each individual can decide for themselves. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[ShadowLogan]

Lightning comes from the sky.
Do we really need to post a source for that...?
Or for the definition of the word "Sky?"

The text description is also used in conjunction with casting it "outdoors or in" though, so what the author/editor means by "from the sky" can be an issue when we look at the issue megaversally (since some have and some don't have that added bit). So how does the "indoor" ones work to get the bolt indoors if there is not apparent path? I think in this case the lightning bolt comes down from above is what the author/editor meant, not the literal sky.

Man-made "lightning" doesn't require it to come down from the, literal, sky after all and is done indoors. Magic may or may not be any different in that respect. While all the text descriptions agree the lightning from the spell comes down from the sky, there is no text to limit it to outdoor only use in those cases it doesn't include the "outdoors or in" text inclusion. So the question does have to be considered if the author/editor meant the literal sky or sky as a figure of speech.

I'm inclined to think it is a figure of speech for three main reasons:
1. Some forms of the description talk about being able to cast it indoors as well as outdoors, with the rest being basically identical
2. For the PPE cost, that would be an impressive range if it is coming down from the sky where natural lightning starts for a damaging spell (I know there are a few spells with the range and as low/lower PPE cost, but they aren't damaging spells)
3. Text does not seem to require there to be a cloud in the sky (which is required IINM), so a cloud may not be involved at all in creating the electrical discharge. If a cloud isn't involved, then there is no reason to limit it to the literal sky

[Library Ogre]

So, what we're seeing is that Palladium copy and pasted the same description for decades, never clarifying what is meant, and fans chose the most permissive option not explicitly forbidden by the text?

I am shocked. It's like it's a whole new company, with a whole new fanbase.

[Svartalf]

Originally Call Lightning was balanced due to needing to be cast outdoors.
But people complained or something, and that got changed.

When was that ? I just checked my PFRPG1 book and the only requirement is that the target be within sight of the caster.

[Voodoolaw]

Like everything else, the GM just has to make the call. We have always used it as coming from the sky, assuming it was just a carryover from that other fantasy game that had the spell originally.

[Svartalf]

Like everything else, the GM just has to make the call. We have always used it as coming from the sky, assuming it was just a carryover from that other fantasy game that had the spell originally.

Fair point, I never thought to refer to that other source, though I'm aware of it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Originally Call Lightning was balanced due to needing to be cast outdoors.
But people complained or something, and that got changed.

When was that ? I just checked my PFRPG1 book and the only requirement is that the target be within sight of the caster.

Lightning comes from the sky.
The sky is outdoors.
This isn't super complex.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Has someone checked the official Q&A's in the rifters?
I sort of remember one of those saying something like CL can be cast to target someone indoors.
(is at a new job and don't have the time to go browsing the Rifters right now.)

[Mack]

There's a reference in the online FAQ that Call Lightning comes down from the sky.

(Awaits the inevitable comments regarding the FAQ.)

[Axelmania]

'cast outdoors or in' is an addition that merely clarifies there was never anything preventing you from casting the spell while indoors, it's not a change or anything.

The CASTER can be indoors and still have a line of site to an outdoor target.

The TARGET on the other hand... they are not obligated to be outdoors, but they should be in a place where a path exists for the lightning to reach them.

I don't know if that necessarily has to be a straight line from above (nothing preventing the lightnig coming in diagonally through an open window IMO)

The bit about 'only strikes the target' does seem to prevent blasting through SDC walls to reach the target...

But then again... this is lightning. If I live inside a sealed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_ ... chitecture who's to say the lightning couldn't simply travel through my conductive walls to reach me?

If that's allowed though, it does open a can of worms like being able to bypass plate armor or chainmail (not sure how it works since it's an automatic strike and not a rolled D20 like with firebolt) or whether it could bypass power armor or robots or tanks with metal components.

not BtS1 version, which seems to function almost entirely different

I remember looking that up because Transdimensional TMNT even mentions how Beyond's CL is different (3 bolts!) than the version printed there for its Wizard (I assume from HU1)

[Library Ogre]

The BtS version of Call Lightning became "Handful of Lightning" in MoM, IIRC.

[Killer Cyborg]

'cast outdoors or in' is an addition that merely clarifies there was never anything preventing you from casting the spell while indoors, it's not a change or anything.

The CASTER can be indoors and still have a line of site to an outdoor target.

The TARGET on the other hand... they are not obligated to be outdoors, but they should be in a place where a path exists for the lightning to reach them.

I don't know if that necessarily has to be a straight line from above (nothing preventing the lightnig coming in diagonally through an open window IMO))

Hm.
That's one way to look at it.