What if Wave 2 were made like Reaper CAV figs?

[Spinachcat]

Anybody here familiar with Reaper's BONES kickstarters? Or their CAV mecha line? They are (mostly) single piece figs made from plastic.

Here is their 2014 KS project.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... operations

I just read PB latest KS RTT update discussing their issues with manufacturers and getting the part count down on figs. What if the part count went down to...one? How do you all feel about that?

Would that be an acceptable Wave 2 option for you?

[Jefffar]

While harder to customized, they certainly would be easier to build (I picked up a few of them). The downside is, of course, being solid means more material is used to make them resulting in a potentially more expensive model for Palladium in that regards. Given the numbers involved, perhaps prohibitively so.

[Morgan Vening]

While harder to customized, they certainly would be easier to build (I picked up a few of them). The downside is, of course, being solid means more material is used to make them resulting in a potentially more expensive model for Palladium in that regards. Given the numbers involved, perhaps prohibitively so.

Perhaps. But the tool costs should be so much simpler, as they should be able to get more done, with the same amount of casting. Remember, CAV was able to do 47 mecha, and 14 lesser vehicles, for $100. This campaign was $130, for 86 mecha and 7 lesser vehicles. But CAV was only able to pull in 1/10th the funding, so economy of scale should help in that regards.

And if it's running that tight, I think there's even bigger problems ahead. Because while manufacturing and materials costs may not be exploding, shipping has, and will continue to do so. The longer that it's delayed, the more prohibitively expensive shipping will become. I know less than 10 years ago, a flatrate box cost me $37. I know last year, the exact same flat rate box to the same location cost me $83. They need to get it done, even if it's a little more expensive than they want, or it'll literally be too expensive to get it out the door.

[wilycoyote]

Agree that the tooling savings would offset materials but there is one fly - one really big fly - in the ointment.

I do do think it would be feasible to complete the Monster in anything but kit form and stay economical. So at least that one would have to go elsewhere.

Otherwise it is probably the way to go to get something out there and of course no reson the "resin " pieces could not be added to this process method.

[Morgan Vening]

Agree that the tooling savings would offset materials but there is one fly - one really big fly - in the ointment.

I do do think it would be feasible to complete the Monster in anything but kit form and stay economical. So at least that one would have to go elsewhere.

Otherwise it is probably the way to go to get something out there and of course no reson the "resin " pieces could not be added to this process method.

The Monster couldn't be done single piece, but it could be done using the same material/toolings. Reaper do some very big models, terrain pieces, large scale dragons in 5 pieces, search for "Dragons Don't Share". So it's not like it's impossible. And Reaper are able to do that entire set for $75 Retail.

And I think at this point, getting something out, rather than faffing about, if it's going to be "soon" (ie, no estimate, no even estimate of an estimate). That getting the resin components done in the same way might be the best option too. It's not the best solution, and it is a significant change given the promise of HIPS. But if they're wanting to get this off their books, rather than dragging it out another several years, they need to make some hard decisions. Either get it done the right way, or at worst, get it done the wrong way. Just get it done.

But this is an open wound for PB, and for a significant portion of the backers. And any chance they have, of salvaging anything from this disaster, rests on getting it done. I think it might already be too late, even if it's released by EoY, along with PB "relaunching", even though this year has already been written off. But each year that it's late (and that we're assessing delays in YEARS plural, is part of the problem), just makes any chance of this not ever being salvagable, even more remote.

[Forar]

Agreed, Morgan.

The saying about being able to please some of the people, etc, is very true here. With over 5k backers and who knows how many non-backers who have bought RRT globally, there is *zero* chance of being able to please 'all of the people all of the time'. A change in materials will cause 'the usual suspects' to howl and wail and gnash their teeth.

But roughly 3.5 years into this cluster...shenanigans, I'd be happier actually owning wave 2 than hearing about how they're trimming the parts count and seeking a manufacturer for the next decade.

Just do it. Finish the job, even if a materials change is less than ideal. But actually work to get something off their plate, rather than just piling on vague promises of effort with nothing to show for it.

With wave one, they went from 'we're paying for molds' to 'production has begun!' to 'substantial shipping has begun!' in less than a year. By their own time frame it isn't acceptable to think that 2-3+ years could go by and have negligible progress shown (5 sprue renders in 2014 and 5 prototypes in 2015 not remotely justifying the kind of time frame we're talking about here).

[wilycoyote]

Thanks Morgan for the info, I admit to knowing nothing about the tooling process

[Maximilian Jenius]

I personally would not want single piece figures. There is a happy medium between overly complex and overly simplistic that needs to be reached if these minis are going to find a market.

[Forar]

Well, the other side is existence.

I'd take single piece figures next year over multi-part figures that won't arrive for 2-5 (if at all).

There's a spectrum, of course. If single pieces would take 12 months and 5'ish piece ones could be done in 15-18, sure.

But they need to actually reach the market. Spending literally years (plural) 'trimming the parts count' is killing what little interest/community might exist. "Wave one delivered November 2014! Wave two delivered November... 2019" is not going to do them any favours.

[Phaze]

Oh please don't....

I was involved with the Robotech, CAV, and Heavy Gear Kickstarters. Some thoughts about the minis:

Robotech RPG Tactic: Reminded me very much of the Gundam Models I made when I lived in Japan but on a much smaller scale. Plastic was good quality and easily modified. VF-1 squad was a daunting task to assemble because 3 minis is 1 mecha unit and there were a lot of parts so 1 squad was twelve minis. Most other minis were not bad. The Scout Battle pod was a challenge. It painted very well and the detail is good. Anyone with any kind of modeling skill can make them TTQ (Table Top Quality) for running games with a moderate level of effort.

CAV: Injected molded using a grey plastic similar to the white 'Bones' Material. The finish comes out glossy and is tough to paint. The rubbery touch of the mini will cause paint to flake off, especially on the thin areas like the wings of the A-10 looking unit. Plus you have to drop them in hot water to straighten them out because they are all warped when you get them. I can't imagine what would happen to them if they are left in the trunk of a hot car. I don't like the detail level. It reminds me of the old TSR minis after they are painted... you end up painting detail in to make them look better. But for $100US, I did get a lot of minis. Not sure if I will invest the time in painting them though. While most of them are in two or three pieces, the pieces don't fit well together and have large gaps that don't glue well or fill in well. While the bones material is cheap and the minis are cheap you do get what you pay for: Inferior detail, warped out of the bag, and that sinking feeling in your gut when the paint on the tail section of that sweet paint job you did just flaked off and you would have to spend another hour to try to repair it. Oh, and don't use primer...it will never dry.

Heavy Gear: OK.. they look awesome. Detail is great. Finish is good. I can't wait to paint them. OMG.. the part count is abusive! I thought the VF-1 was a challenge... Each one of these is customizable and the sprues are confusing. It took me ten minutes to figure out what the parts were, another ten to cut the ones I wanted out of the sprue, and 20 to clean them up...for one mini. Of course some of that time was spent looking for the tiny pieces that inevitably slip out of my fat little fingers and onto the dark oak floor (they are black plastic). Seriously, they are worse than the Scout Pod...tiny pieces. But after the frustration of assembling them, painting is not too intense as they take paint well, and the end result is an awesome mecha.

Just my two cents. Of the three, I am less intimidated by the Robotech minis that still reside on the sprues waiting to be assembled. The others fill me with more dread, the CAV because of the dish pan hands trying to straighten everything back into the pose they were supposed to be in, and the Heavy Gear because of OMG tiny parts.

And yes, of course I would like Wave 2 sooner than later as well. If I had to have Wave 2 in another material...even white metal, I would take it.

[Morgan Vening]

Heavy Gear: OK.. they look awesome. Detail is great. Finish is good. I can't wait to paint them. OMG.. the part count is abusive! I thought the VF-1 was a challenge... Each one of these is customizable and the sprues are confusing. It took me ten minutes to figure out what the parts were, another ten to cut the ones I wanted out of the sprue, and 20 to clean them up...for one mini. Of course some of that time was spent looking for the tiny pieces that inevitably slip out of my fat little fingers and onto the dark oak floor (they are black plastic). Seriously, they are worse than the Scout Pod...tiny pieces. But after the frustration of assembling them, painting is not too intense as they take paint well, and the end result is an awesome mecha.

OK. Have to take exception to this. Yes, the pieces are smaller than the RRT equivalents. But the count isn't. 8 parts plus weapons for a Gear (looking at the Jager) is not the same as 15 for a Battlepod. Or 22+ for a Destroid. And you do have a point over them being smaller, but they're also significantly multi-pose configurable. That's the tradeoff. And most are easily tabbed/slotted/grooved for ease of assembly. Unlike RRT, which had a significant amount of flat point connections, and then also had them be sprue join points (looking at the Spartan hand components). And there isn't any seam issues that I can see. So there's not THAT part of assembly you have to worry about. Nor have I seen any egregious sprue connections (most seem to either connect to a flat/smooth area on the piece, if not a part that'll be hidden anyway.

The sprues being confusing? There's a lot of options on there, that's for sure. The Jager (again) has an extra arm, an extra leg, and eight weapon options. But the Miniature Assembly Guide, provided for free, available almost immediately (unlike the 4+ months PB took), is very comprehensive and easy to identify. But there's no parts you look at, and wonder how it fits together, like the multi-split veritech arms.

Are they perfect? No. But there's a false equivalence if comparing them to RRT. The parts count is higher than I'd like, but it was done for a reason, and not because "it had to be done that way" (for example, why were they able to make the right arm on the Spartan one piece indicating it COULD be done that way, but the left arm in three pieces, and the right arm if you wanted the club, 4?). There's a lot of options, but it's fairly well laid out and self contained. And unlike RRT, each sprue contains every option. There's no "You have to have a set of Spartan pods open, and a set closed, because we only put in one of each for every pair". The only potential argument otherwise is Caprice, and the medium Mounts. But then they go to show that that's mostly a feature, not a bug (I'd rather they supplied a second set of hips, and done the Kadesh/Meddigo legs as full components), but it's definitely not a dealbreaker.

[Morgan Vening]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that finds Bones style Robotech miniatures to be undesirable.

They're definitely not great from a modelling/hobbyist perspective. But from a gamer's perspective, they're great. While I appreciate the work some people put into their models, that's not an aspect I'm willing, wanting or capable of doing. But agreed, I think any decision to change formats to fulfill the outstanding pledges, needs to be dealt with, with alternate options for those who DID want that level of quality. This isn't a simple shift from HIPS to a slightly similar material like ABS (adding acrylonitrile to the styrene/polybutadiene copolymer that is HIPS). A change of this magnitude would need SIGNIFICANT support (ie, not counting absentees, and it being in the overwhelming majority, 80%+ of all backers, not excluding absentees), and/or offering a refund to anyone not wanting to deal with the newer material.

And that last issue is what would kill any significant change of material. Because for some backers, it's specifically the reason they did back.