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Hello. New to the forum, thanks for taking the time to read my question.

What methods do you use (as GM or player) to protect characters from "You lose completely" de-buff effects like Blind or Paralysis or Magic Net or Carpet of Adhesion or Agony?

Greepnak wrote:Hello. New to the forum, thanks for taking the time to read my question.

What methods do you use (as GM or player) to protect characters from "You lose completely" de-buff effects like Blind or Paralysis or Magic Net or Carpet of Adhesion or Agony?

I rewrote Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net for my games due to their status as "I win buttons"
So far, I have not had Agony be a problem due to the fact that since you get a save its almost never an issue (it is trivially easy to get massive bonuses to save vs magic and I have pretty much given up counting on people failing saves regularly)

Greepnak wrote:Hello. New to the forum, thanks for taking the time to read my question.

What methods do you use (as GM or player) to protect characters from "You lose completely" de-buff effects like Blind or Paralysis or Magic Net or Carpet of Adhesion or Agony?

There's no particular complete protection against these things.
I do try to have as many characters with Mind Block as possible, because a lot of that kind of thing comes from psychic attacks.
High attributes for good save bonuses is also a goal.

Magic Net and CoA aren't necessarily "you lose completely" situations.
With CoA, you can still shoot people. Having your feet stuck to the ground only really matters if you try to dodge or need to chase somebody.
With Magic Net, you can possibly still cast spells, use psychic powers, taunt the enemy, advise allies, and so forth.

eliakon wrote:

Greepnak wrote:Hello. New to the forum, thanks for taking the time to read my question.

What methods do you use (as GM or player) to protect characters from "You lose completely" de-buff effects like Blind or Paralysis or Magic Net or Carpet of Adhesion or Agony?

I rewrote Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net for my games due to their status as "I win buttons"
So far, I have not had Agony be a problem due to the fact that since you get a save its almost never an issue (it is trivially easy to get massive bonuses to save vs magic and I have pretty much given up counting on people failing saves regularly)

Hi, what are your rewrites for those two spells? I've ended up with a rather high-calibre campaign (a dragon hatchling with Giant from Skraypers and two cosmo knights and a Godling) doing Minion War stuff which means (to me) lots of blinding flash etc. The Godling was prettymuch shut straight down by Blinding Flash for the entire combat, as well as one of the cosmoknights.

Greepnak wrote:Hello. New to the forum, thanks for taking the time to read my question.

What methods do you use (as GM or player) to protect characters from "You lose completely" de-buff effects like Blind or Paralysis or Magic Net or Carpet of Adhesion or Agony?

I don't see a need to protect characters from the "you lose completely" effects. That's just part of life as both a GM and player. Though as a GM I can elect for the NPCs to NOT use the "de-buff" effect options.

Now there are ways to protect from some of those effects, but the protection is also based on the means used to cause them. Mind Block is useless if its the blinding agent is not mental in origin but physical, but physical protection from a blinding agent isn't going to stop all blind agents.

Magic Net and Carpet of Adhesion. Options exists to negate spell magic. Even CoA isn't a show stopper, you can still move, its just your range of motion is reduced (how much depends on your body position). Magic Net can be dodged (so the best defense is to have a high dodge bonus AND to dodge).

The group I run with has a rule that as long as the players don't use 'save vs death/horrendous amounts of suck' the GM doesn't either that way if the players want to introduce this sort of thing into the game then it's their fault when they get one shot by it. (this rule works really well for most games that aren't CoC based)

IGNG wrote:The group I run with has a rule that as long as the players don't use 'save vs death/horrendous amounts of suck' the GM doesn't either that way if the players want to introduce this sort of thing into the game then it's their fault when they get one shot by it. (this rule works really well for most games that aren't CoC based)

Thanks for replying. What is CoC? I'm not sussing out the acronym.

I want there to be a place for debuffs but I want there to be a way accessible for my party and my npcs to mitigate them too. Getting the feeling I might have to houserule the hell out of stuff.

the first step is to decide as a gm how those debuffs work.
some of the magic /psionic ones say for instance they are more of a mental/internal trigger/breaking effect.
others are more manipulation of the physical world or don't specify.

so if you say ok this "blind/deafen" effect is effectively a flashbang grenade going off but its magically/psionically created then the standard technological solutions would work against it as well.

for instance to defend against flash you need a visor/glasses/contacts/cyber implants that can react and effectively negate/protect the eyes from the flash.
to protect against deafening effects, you need something like ear plugs/muffs/headsets that through a combination of methods selectively pass "safe sounds" while blocking or canceling excessively loud/damaging ones.

note I am simplifying obviously but you get the idea.

edit
I forgot to mention there was a star wars novel that pretty much did a really good job of explaining the difference and just how "broken evil" some of the psionic abilities can be if used "properly" I want to say it was "the courtship of princess Leia" in a scene there luke got attacked by a force user who basically gave him an aneurism IE tore open a blood vessel in his brain and is lying there dyeing when the "plot armor" kicked in and saved him, but in the scene he is reflecting on how darth vader either wasn't really all that skilled with the force, and or was doing a lot of stuff that wouldn't just outright kill him.

remember everything Vader did was big/flashy and rooted in the physical world. telekinesis attacks IE shoving luke around throwing things at him and similar. vs tearing/"pinching off" nerves/blood vessels etc.

for instance the star trek episodes where the entire bridge crew is getting blinded by the flash from the main view screen equals a totally stupid design. how you SHOULD have it is the main view screen is effectively a great big television mounted on/in that wall. when the input signal is too "bright" the image hits the maximum brightness (still safe and not blinding) and "whites out" the display, and or your computer automatically filters it out of the composite signal it is displaying already built from the various sensors all over the ships hull.

Greepnak wrote:

IGNG wrote:The group I run with has a rule that as long as the players don't use 'save vs death/horrendous amounts of suck' the GM doesn't either that way if the players want to introduce this sort of thing into the game then it's their fault when they get one shot by it. (this rule works really well for most games that aren't CoC based)

Thanks for replying. What is CoC? I'm not sussing out the acronym.

I want there to be a place for debuffs but I want there to be a way accessible for my party and my npcs to mitigate them too. Getting the feeling I might have to houserule the hell out of stuff.

CoC = call of Cthulhu

Some debuffs are fine, Armor Bizarre for example. There is a chance that you lose one action per round. Luck curse is fine: lose the ability to do cool stuff. Carpet of adhesion is fine: lose the ability to move. Stun is fine: penalty to hit and reduced actions per round. In all of these cases the player still controls their character and has things (plural) to do.

Some buffs are not fine. Mind control is not fine: the players is now sitting there watching the GM play with himself. Magic net is bad: the player just sits there watching other people play. In these cases the player doesn't have anything to do and wants to know why he bothered to show up.

You have to exercise some care in the choice of debuffs you and your party use. I'm not sure why you want to use debuffs. Is it to limit the party's damage output by making them skip actions? Just use armor bizarre. Are you trying to make a utility character feel useful? Use curses and let them cast remove curse.

Yeah I think Magic Net, as written, is kind of redonkulously powerful. Are there effective "caught in a net" rules anywhere? Not just for that spell, but also for net weapons/net guns like slavers use etc.

I think my cosmo knight is just going to have to stay beyond 300-500 feet to avoid being flummoxed by magic blindness and such I guess. She's too concerned about what happens if she misses an eye beam cosmoray to hang with -10 to strike. The other cosmo is all about the sword, so he can take that risk.

Greepnak wrote:Are there effective "caught in a net" rules anywhere?

W.P. Net (PF2E pg60, off hand I'm not sure where it might appear in the Rifts line as it is not in RUE though if its not in the GMG)

Rifts listings of Net Weapons are pretty rare (if you think Magic Net is bad, don't look at some of these), and this is not intended to be a complete search:
-SB1o pg109 (same as WB2, pg # might differ in SB1r, Techn-Wizard)
-SB3 pg52 (tech)
-WB2 pg154 (same as WB2, Techno-Wizard)
-WB9 pg163 (tech)
-WB21 pg16 (tech)
-WB25 pg90-1 (Eco-Wizard)

ShadowLogan wrote:

Greepnak wrote:Are there effective "caught in a net" rules anywhere?

W.P. Net (PF2E pg60, off hand I'm not sure where it might appear in the Rifts line as it is not in RUE though if its not in the GMG)

Rifts listings of Net Weapons are pretty rare (if you think Magic Net is bad, don't look at some of these), and this is not intended to be a complete search:
-SB1o pg109 (same as WB2, pg # might differ in SB1r, Techn-Wizard)
-SB3 pg52 (tech)
-WB2 pg154 (same as WB2, Techno-Wizard)
-WB9 pg163 (tech)
-WB21 pg16 (tech)
-WB25 pg90-1 (Eco-Wizard)

Thank you very much Shadowlogan! I will look. My kingdom for a single Book of Simple Combat: How to Resolve EVERYTHING with opposed dice rolls" book.

Greepnak wrote:Hello. New to the forum, thanks for taking the time to read my question.

What methods do you use (as GM or player) to protect characters from "You lose completely" de-buff effects like Blind or Paralysis or Magic Net or Carpet of Adhesion or Agony?

The problem is, different sources require different protection.

Bio-manipulation is psychic, Blind and Paralasis are also spells. There are also poisons that can paralyze or blind. plus if one uses N&SS there are martial arts techniques that can blind and paralyze in melee combat too.

There is no way to defend against all of them at once. Invunerability the spell is the closest you can get. immune to poisons, +10 save vs magic and psionics and 50 MDC force feild to block melee attacks is as close as you can get.

I guess it would be hard to jab some fingers into the eyes if there was a force field involved.

I usually have to play my NPCs are very "arrogant" because if I have them do full prep they become rather unkillable by the party. That Magot demon with it's four Gargoyle infantry support with an Alu on a Netherbeast flinging Blinding Flash around is a tough encounter already. Put Armor Bizarre on all of them or something and it becomes extreme.

on chromatic protection:
"2. The light is magical and will penetrate non-magical armor and visors,
so even characters in environmental body armor or power armor
will suffer its effects. Only magical, rune or Bio-Wizard armor,
Techno-Wizard armor, and rare items created by the gods designed to
protect the eyes from magical light can negate the effects of this speli."

what items?

None published I do not think. That is more an opening for GMs to make exceptions and make new items

Nekira Sudacne wrote:None published I do not think. That is more an opening for GMs to make exceptions and make new items

Hmmmm. I guess everything is.