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So a dragon hatchling's shapeshifting...

If they take the form of a person, can they fake clothing or are they naked?

they are naked unless they get clothing.

My totally, not even remotely, non-canon opinion.

If a dragon changes to a human form, he's naked. But, if he puts on clothes, then transforms into his natural dragon form, the clothes go poof into the magic. Later when he transforms to human again, poof the clothes are on his human body. Hatchlings can do this with typical SDC clothes while Adults can do it with MDC clothes.

Why this approach? It simplifies the game so that the dragon doesn't have to go searching for clothes with every transformation. Plus the character has to remember what he had on last, which could have some comical results if he picks a different human facade.

Metamorphsis spells say you come back naked so I think Dragons also are naked.

Was just wanting something more dignified

Nekira Sudacne wrote:they are naked unless they get clothing.

NS has the right of it. Except that they are nude, not naked.


Unless they are bashful about their human form. Then they are naked.

VR Dragon wrote:Was just wanting something more dignified

then coin it like some other media were the "clothes" are still part of the dragon, they just look like they're something being worn

or house rule and handwave it as "magic did it"...after all a dragon is supposed to be a being of magic and if you feel them showing up in human form with their dangly bits hanging out needs a change go right ahead

...some people I know would say that this removes certain key targets from easy shooting, but they are cruel individuals who i'm not sure why i'm bringing them up now except maybe to share the trauma?...anyway, what do YOU feel a dragon should get? I mean I can see a hatchling ending up unclothed because they just turn into a human, but you'd think an adult dragon with thousands of years of life would have some way to shift into human form AND be dressed..for dignities sake if nothing else

Edit: and i'd totally forgotten i'd quoted you saying that by the time I got to the end and mentioned a dragons dignity

Mack wrote:My totally, not even remotely, non-canon opinion.

If a dragon changes to a human form, he's naked. But, if he puts on clothes, then transforms into his natural dragon form, the clothes go poof into the magic. Later when he transforms to human again, poof the clothes are on his human body. Hatchlings can do this with typical SDC clothes while Adults can do it with MDC clothes.

Why this approach? It simplifies the game so that the dragon doesn't have to go searching for clothes with every transformation. Plus the character has to remember what he had on last, which could have some comical results if he picks a different human facade.

What happens with the clothes if the dragon gets killed in dragon form? Or what if he pockets an important item (or gets it sewn into the clothing)? If it vanishes with the clothing then it would be the ultimate hiding place.

Because of such things I prefer metamorphosis to not include clothes (It also makes it a bit more complicated for the dragon to also wear additional armor on top of his natural MDC).

Ixal wrote:

Mack wrote:My totally, not even remotely, non-canon opinion.

If a dragon changes to a human form, he's naked. But, if he puts on clothes, then transforms into his natural dragon form, the clothes go poof into the magic. Later when he transforms to human again, poof the clothes are on his human body. Hatchlings can do this with typical SDC clothes while Adults can do it with MDC clothes.

Why this approach? It simplifies the game so that the dragon doesn't have to go searching for clothes with every transformation. Plus the character has to remember what he had on last, which could have some comical results if he picks a different human facade.

What happens with the clothes if the dragon gets killed in dragon form? Or what if he pockets an important item (or gets it sewn into the clothing)? If it vanishes with the clothing then it would be the ultimate hiding place.

Because of such things I prefer metamorphosis to not include clothes (It also makes it a bit more complicated for the dragon to also wear additional armor on top of his natural MDC).

Sometimes the magic is quirky and things just flop on the ground.

We've always allowed dragons to form clothing along with their body. It doesn't work QUITE like real clothing (i.e. you can't take it off), but they don't turn into "a human" but "something that looks like a human."

Mark Hall wrote:We've always allowed dragons to form clothing along with their body. It doesn't work QUITE like real clothing (i.e. you can't take it off), but they don't turn into "a human" but "something that looks like a human."

If he was asked to remove his jacket, could he?

Mack wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:We've always allowed dragons to form clothing along with their body. It doesn't work QUITE like real clothing (i.e. you can't take it off), but they don't turn into "a human" but "something that looks like a human."

If he was asked to remove his jacket, could he?

Sounds like the old doppelganger, he is saying you can not take it off because it is part of your body, be like trying to remove the skin from your face, sure you could but it would not be feasible.

Well...with their bio-regen rate....

Mack wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:We've always allowed dragons to form clothing along with their body. It doesn't work QUITE like real clothing (i.e. you can't take it off), but they don't turn into "a human" but "something that looks like a human."

If he was asked to remove his jacket, could he?

Never came up, but I probably would've said "No" or made them take some damage. But I figure, for something with the metamorphic power of a dragon (can shrink multiple tons down to look like a bunny), "has pants" is a relatively minor feat.

Dragons need to get the clothes Spirit Foxes use in mystic China.

I say a dressed in human form dragon wrecks his clothes. If they want to avoid that, take the time to undress before assuming dragon form. In dragon form you could have your human clothes in a bag.

Dragons could favor clothes that are quick to remove or take off. Like perhaps they wear a cloak with nothing on underneath and fasten it for modesty.

Dragons may not have much in the way of modesty. I could see fresh hatchlings not fitting in with humans because they like to be naked in all forms.

Axelmania wrote:Dragons need to get the clothes Spirit Foxes use in mystic China.

I say a dressed in human form dragon wrecks his clothes. If they want to avoid that, take the time to undress before assuming dragon form. In dragon form you could have your human clothes in a bag.

Dragons could favor clothes that are quick to remove or take off. Like perhaps they wear a cloak with nothing on underneath and fasten it for modesty.

Dragons may not have much in the way of modesty. I could see fresh hatchlings not fitting in with humans because they like to be naked in all forms.

"Mas... stretchy?"

Something I've always wondered. When a hatchling changes into a human form, do they always look the same? I can think of at least one Dragon where the humanoid/elf form is described in a Rifter. Kind of makes me think when they take the form of something, like human or bunny, they should look like a certain person or animal when in that form.

Jerell wrote:Something I've always wondered. When a hatchling changes into a human form, do they always look the same? I can think of at least one Dragon where the humanoid/elf form is described in a Rifter. Kind of makes me think when they take the form of something, like human or bunny, they should look like a certain person or animal when in that form.

I kinda agree with this, but i also dont see why if a dragon makes a concious choice they cant be a different "kind" of human or bunny. So if they become an albino rabbit theyll always have the same appearance as an albino rabbit, or if they want to be a brown furred rabbit with white spots theyll always have the same spots, but i dont see why they couldnt change into either of them?

I dont recall any specific rules on it besides that the magic tattoo dragons are better with more leeway, longer duration and can turn into mist cause theyre so good at it

So basically i think theyre default shift, the ones they often do become sorta like a selection of clothes, they fit best and youll put them on without thinking but if you really wanna change it up you could...maybe

Jerell wrote:Something I've always wondered. When a hatchling changes into a human form, do they always look the same? I can think of at least one Dragon where the humanoid/elf form is described in a Rifter. Kind of makes me think when they take the form of something, like human or bunny, they should look like a certain person or animal when in that form.

I allow them to look like anyone they want with their metamorphosis, but most who regularly interact with people will choose a "standard" form. Like, if you're going to see Vermithrax the Pejorative, she's probably going to look like she looked last week. She likes this form. She's spent centuries making it look just so, perfecting her "giant black amazon" look. But, if she needs to slip out and disappear, she can just as easily look like a 13 year old Latina or a middle-aged Chinese woman... and she might look exactly like the middle-aged Chinese woman she bought tacos from 300 years ago.

I'm reminded of "Island at the Edge of the World", where a changeling NPC you encounter as a pretty girl the night before looks like a big wolfen the next day... just felt more big and burly that day.

Splynn: Dimensional Market pg. 28-29

A store called Enchanted Apparel sells an item called the Wardrobe Amulet. its their most popular item. rub the gem, creates an outfit. works even if nude, i think 3 programmed outfits per amulet. very popular among shapeshifters.

wonderdog wrote:Splynn: Dimensional Market pg. 28-29

A store called Enchanted Apparel sells an item called the Wardrobe Amulet. its their most popular item. rub the gem, creates an outfit. works even if nude, i think 3 programmed outfits per amulet. very popular among shapeshifters.

Where does the dragon keep the amulet so that it doesnt fall off or gets broken when changing its form?

In its mouth?

Would be nice if we had example of changeling or dragon having 2 human forms to settle this. It would be curious if we couldn't fine least one.

I'm definitely interested to know. I'm not sure it's ever been directly addressed. I could easily see it either way personally, Mark makes a good argument. It may be one of those things that just come down to GM preference. Still interested to know what the original intent is though.

Also, I would be more accepting of adult dragons being able to change appearances in a certain form than hatchlings. But then again, if even a hatchling can change itself in small enough ways to look like say a human, Atlantean, or elf, that must be pretty good control to start off with... But would (or should) they be able to change things like hair or eye color? Obviously it's within the realm of possibility, probably likely even, however it's kind also kind of interesting/fun to think like a Fire Dragon hatchling for example always has red/blonde hair in humanoid form.

Ixal wrote:Where does the dragon keep the amulet so that it doesnt fall off or gets broken when changing its form?

hmmm maybe on a claw/hand, worn like a ring, or on the tail or something?

Jerell wrote:

Ixal wrote:Where does the dragon keep the amulet so that it doesnt fall off or gets broken when changing its form?

hmmm maybe on a claw/hand, worn like a ring, or on the tail or something?

I think in dragons and gods we get to see one with a thigh pouch and holding a dagger so...

actually suggestion number 1 from the depths of my mind is superglue it to their chest in the modern day. But now i'm trying to figure out what he does with that pouch when he is metamorphed...I mean it has to be like human sized on most dragons right? oh! a good way to store your scale scrubber, just stick him in a pouch with food and water and let it out to play every now and then!

someone needs to write a book for dragons "How to train your human"

Ixal wrote:

wonderdog wrote:Splynn: Dimensional Market pg. 28-29

A store called Enchanted Apparel sells an item called the Wardrobe Amulet. its their most popular item. rub the gem, creates an outfit. works even if nude, i think 3 programmed outfits per amulet. very popular among shapeshifters.

Where does the dragon keep the amulet so that it doesnt fall off or gets broken when changing its form?

So just a few things id like to throw out there.
1. Dragons are highly respected in Atlantis. I think the word thats used is "reverence".

2. The book lists one single item that the store sells, its not a comprehensive list of their wares.

3. The most popular item they sell changes outfits for shapeshifters.

4. Dragons are known for their hoardes. I.e. TREASURE

why would this store NOT have options available for dragons, a legendary wealthy being who garners much respect in the marketplace in which they do business?

wonderdog wrote:

Ixal wrote:

wonderdog wrote:Splynn: Dimensional Market pg. 28-29

A store called Enchanted Apparel sells an item called the Wardrobe Amulet. its their most popular item. rub the gem, creates an outfit. works even if nude, i think 3 programmed outfits per amulet. very popular among shapeshifters.

Where does the dragon keep the amulet so that it doesnt fall off or gets broken when changing its form?

So just a few things id like to throw out there.
1. Dragons are highly respected in Atlantis. I think the word thats used is "reverence".

2. The book lists one single item that the store sells, its not a comprehensive list of their wares.

3. The most popular item they sell changes outfits for shapeshifters.

4. Dragons are known for their hoardes. I.e. TREASURE

why would this store NOT have options available for dragons, a legendary wealthy being who garners much respect in the marketplace in which they do business?

Basically why would it not have a chain that fits a dragon form.-heck being intended for shape shifters they might have variable lengths of chain.
(not to mention I would think a dragon can figure out it needs to remove something before changing shape.)

wonderdog wrote:

Ixal wrote:

wonderdog wrote:Splynn: Dimensional Market pg. 28-29

A store called Enchanted Apparel sells an item called the Wardrobe Amulet. its their most popular item. rub the gem, creates an outfit. works even if nude, i think 3 programmed outfits per amulet. very popular among shapeshifters.

Where does the dragon keep the amulet so that it doesnt fall off or gets broken when changing its form?

So just a few things id like to throw out there.
1. Dragons are highly respected in Atlantis. I think the word thats used is "reverence".

2. The book lists one single item that the store sells, its not a comprehensive list of their wares.

3. The most popular item they sell changes outfits for shapeshifters.

4. Dragons are known for their hoardes. I.e. TREASURE

why would this store NOT have options available for dragons, a legendary wealthy being who garners much respect in the marketplace in which they do business?

I was just talking technicalities. Unless the item changes its size with the user a dragon will have trouble handling it either in its natural form or morphed into a human (or even something smaller).
Also, specific for this item, are the preprogrammed clothes specific to one form i.e would fit a 1.80m human but not a 1.80m Lyn-Srial? That would limit the morphing ability a lot when the dragon always had to assume the same (or very similar) form so that the clothes would fit.

A chain is nice and well, but what will the dragon in human form do with an amulet with a 3m chain on it? Or the other way around how would a nearly full grown dragon handle a tiny amulet with a chain barely long enough to fit around a humans neck? And if the dragon would drop the amulet befor metamorphing or it would fall off by itself as the form it morphs into does not have the body part the amulet was attached to (like horns) then it would again be naked until it can pick up the amulet again.

Its of course completely valid to rule that the clothes always fit and it is just the style thats fixed, it is magic after all, and even that the amulet changes size (but personally I am weary to introduce such kind of magic into tha game as rather soon someone will ask if they can put similar enchantments on other items to always fit like weapons or MDC body armor).

Ixal wrote:I was just talking technicalities. Unless the item changes its size with the user a dragon will have trouble handling it either in its natural form or morphed into a human (or even something smaller).
Also, specific for this item, are the preprogrammed clothes specific to one form i.e would fit a 1.80m human but not a 1.80m Lyn-Srial? That would limit the morphing ability a lot when the dragon always had to assume the same (or very similar) form so that the clothes would fit.

A chain is nice and well, but what will the dragon in human form do with an amulet with a 3m chain on it? Or the other way around how would a nearly full grown dragon handle a tiny amulet with a chain barely long enough to fit around a humans neck? And if the dragon would drop the amulet befor metamorphing or it would fall off by itself as the form it morphs into does not have the body part the amulet was attached to (like horns) then it would again be naked until it can pick up the amulet again.

Its of course completely valid to rule that the clothes always fit and it is just the style thats fixed, it is magic after all, and even that the amulet changes size (but personally I am weary to introduce such kind of magic into tha game as rather soon someone will ask if they can put similar enchantments on other items to always fit like weapons or MDC body armor).

This is why I said super glue it, use a super adhesive and stick the amulet to the dragons scales, as it shifts the amulet stays the same size and remains on the same general area of the dragon (i'm assuming a physical change that would allow adhesives to remain, otherwise you'd have to say "sorry but those sticky bombs you stuck to the dragon fall off as he shapeshifts!"). it may be an issue if you shift to a form that's too small, but this way a smaller amulet is better (and if you attach in any form it doesn't matter how big you grow or small you get as long as its not too small). and I don't know how the clothes would be, but if its a "Programmed" outfit it likely at most has a size change, no big deal if it doesn't just have it set to your favorite clothes for favorite forms, but the amulet "creates" the clothes on use right? So just tell them that sure your MDC armor and weapon will always fit, as soon as they figure out a way to make an amulet that will generate them whenever needed (maybe an armor of Ithan modified?we already have the splugoroth amulets as an example) but likely these will cost a pretty good amount of PPE, but ya, its basically the same as having an item cast armor of ithan and say an ice sword spell whenever you needed. So likely the cost is the same magically as just using those spells or getting a talisman (I assume the amulet with clothes lacks these concerns because of A) research! beyond PC's timescales to do and B) its just clothes, nothing has to be too big a magic expenditure)

So if they want armor or weapons that change size with them? pay out the cash for some technowizard gear or talismans that apply magic armor or generate magic weapons.

there was a webnovel series I read where they got around the whole shapeshifting issue for gear by having "metamorphic" items, basically they were enchanted in such a way that the gear would resize or "transform" to remain on/useful, when the person shifted.

for example the main character of the series, has a "necklace" that when she is human, has the end hanging down to around her belly button, kind of like a slip connection for a cable a small loop on 1 end that the other side goes through and a "knot" on the end that won't pass through the loop, and then enchanted so the "necklace" part remains basically stuck on her neck. when she shifts, (to a sabretooth tiger more or less, or a "were" form part man, part animal like the shift stopped in the middle) her neck is so big that she needs that much necklace to keep from being choked.

as far as a dragon, they might need a 3-4 meter chain, but it doesn't necessarily have to be made of links that can take a ton, if all its doing is holding a 5oz ring on.

"The amulet can create one of four different pre-programmed outfits. Cost for a standard amulet is 500,000 credits. A customized amulet with images selected by the purchaser costs up to two million credits. The amulet is most popular among shapechangers who want clothing that will change with them."

It also states "by rubbing this gem..." for activation so does it really need to be worn like that?
And its illusion based magic.

Ixal wrote:

wonderdog wrote:

Ixal wrote:

wonderdog wrote:Splynn: Dimensional Market pg. 28-29

A store called Enchanted Apparel sells an item called the Wardrobe Amulet. its their most popular item. rub the gem, creates an outfit. works even if nude, i think 3 programmed outfits per amulet. very popular among shapeshifters.

Where does the dragon keep the amulet so that it doesnt fall off or gets broken when changing its form?

So just a few things id like to throw out there.
1. Dragons are highly respected in Atlantis. I think the word thats used is "reverence".

2. The book lists one single item that the store sells, its not a comprehensive list of their wares.

3. The most popular item they sell changes outfits for shapeshifters.

4. Dragons are known for their hoardes. I.e. TREASURE

why would this store NOT have options available for dragons, a legendary wealthy being who garners much respect in the marketplace in which they do business?

I was just talking technicalities. Unless the item changes its size with the user a dragon will have trouble handling it either in its natural form or morphed into a human (or even something smaller).
Also, specific for this item, are the preprogrammed clothes specific to one form i.e would fit a 1.80m human but not a 1.80m Lyn-Srial? That would limit the morphing ability a lot when the dragon always had to assume the same (or very similar) form so that the clothes would fit.

A chain is nice and well, but what will the dragon in human form do with an amulet with a 3m chain on it? Or the other way around how would a nearly full grown dragon handle a tiny amulet with a chain barely long enough to fit around a humans neck? And if the dragon would drop the amulet befor metamorphing or it would fall off by itself as the form it morphs into does not have the body part the amulet was attached to (like horns) then it would again be naked until it can pick up the amulet again.

Its of course completely valid to rule that the clothes always fit and it is just the style thats fixed, it is magic after all, and even that the amulet changes size (but personally I am weary to introduce such kind of magic into tha game as rather soon someone will ask if they can put similar enchantments on other items to always fit like weapons or MDC body armor).

You could use a 3m chain as a type of decorative belt or just have a slip connection that gravity will keep from being loose around the neck with the long amulet tucked in a pocket. It could also have multiple chains of different lengths or as the clothing changes size with the user the amulet just might as well. It almost seams like you are just trying to make a problem where none needs to be.

The extension cord could be retractable around a spool like dental floss. My electric can opener has this.

Option 1: necklace becomes a belt.

Option 2: it's magical shape-shifty so it shape-shifts with you.

Option 3: you create internal compartments in your new shape body because you're a shapeshifter. Took some self-training by you don't do much while keeping watch at night.

If a metamorphed dragon can have hair (and it is clear that they can), then I don't get why clothing would be a stretch for them.

Hair is biologically grown. Clothes aren't. Same reason a dragon cannot turn into a lamp.

Axelmania wrote:Hair is biologically grown. Clothes aren't. Same reason a dragon cannot turn into a lamp.

*insert random alien biological lamp creature*

Axelmania wrote:Hair is biologically grown. Clothes aren't. Same reason a dragon cannot turn into a lamp.

Plenty of clothing is made out of biologically grown materials (to say nothing of what Lemurians do).

That would be separate being though. I doubt a single dragon could shape shift into horse AND rider. Two dragons could.

You now how me wondering which Splugoethian parasites/symbiotes a dragon could impersonate.

Axelmania wrote:That would be separate being though. I doubt a single dragon could shape shift into horse AND rider. Two dragons could.

You now how me wondering which Splugoethian parasites/symbiotes a dragon could impersonate.

anything big enough to fit outside their minimum size, so...I'm pretty sure the chest thing, that symbiotic doctor squid thing maybe a few others...but mostly that sounds like a massive jerk move "and so you gun down the cult leader and then his chest symbiote detaches quickly growing into an adult dragon what do you do?"

I figure most people would die before figuring out whats going on simply because...I mean...seriously....

i'm the one telling the scenario and I wanna roll to disbelieve illusion...and that's not even a palladium mechanic!

I was thinking chest amalgamate too. It might be hard to be as intrusive as that thing is without killing your vehicle though.

Axelmania wrote:I was thinking chest amalgamate too. It might be hard to be as intrusive as that thing is without killing your vehicle though.

A few subtle changes to the form so you have a look alike instead of an actual one and it should be doable...and I can't think of any reasons a dragon couldn't shift into a "almost" one and maybe use a few discreet grippers or something...or better yet just have a nightstalker do it to an animated corpse

theres really no "killing" the dead

Morphing into an amalgamate on a zombie chest is even more insidious than being g the parrot on a zombie shoulder.

Axelmania wrote:Morphing into an amalgamate on a zombie chest is even more insidious than being g the parrot on a zombie shoulder.

now that just makes me feel happy inside