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Okay, so, just borrow the book from my Gm.

First and foremost: Holy crud, its amazing. Love 90% + of the book. Cant wait to get my own copy soon!

Did notice something though, particularly in the crystal mage OCC.

Power 8, it says the can shape and polish crystals with their hands.

The note just before the skill mentions they don't have the gem shaping powers of the stone master.

Um.... did I miss something?

Last I checked, with the exceptions of the organic ones, everything considered a gem had a crystal structure and was a crystal. Hence: all gems = crystals, not all crystals = gems.

Amorphous stones like Jasper or Malachite are minerals so the Stone Master does have the complete mastery of those types at least, probably Amber as well considering its non-gem non-crystalline petrified nature.

Salt and sugar are crystals, but not gems. Are those sufficient for the crystal mage, and would their shaping ability work on them, but not the stone masters?

Pearls and Ivory are on their own.

A diamond is both a gem and a crystal (Cubic crystalline structure if I remember correctly), so both the stone masters gem shaping and crystal mages power would work to shape it wouldn't they?

Its a bit confusing, so I am wondering which is right.

Last Thing:

Also, reading some of the spells... While I admire them and their creativity, I do not know that, aside from a few rare spikes of quarts that were rather huge, I dont know that I have seen any orange sized crystals, except for maybe quartz and amethyst (a quartz sub-type).

Where could they possibly get anything that large, let alone pay for it? Can they fuse multiple stones together into a single stone? A quartz the size of an orange would weigh 400 or more carats, and a ruby that size would be even more considering how much it weighs per volume compared to quartz.

LilBryan wrote:Okay, so, just borrow the book from my Gm.

First and foremost: Holy crud, its amazing. Love 90% + of the book. Cant wait to get my own copy soon!

Did notice something though, particularly in the crystal mage OCC.

Power 8, it says the can shape and polish crystals with their hands.

The note just before the skill mentions they don't have the gem shaping powers of the stone master.

Um.... did I miss something?

Last I checked, with the exceptions of the organic ones, everything considered a gem had a crystal structure and was a crystal. Hence: all gems = crystals, not all crystals = gems.

Amorphous stones like Jasper or Malachite are minerals so the Stone Master does have the complete mastery of those types at least, probably Amber as well considering its non-gem non-crystalline petrified nature.

Salt and sugar are crystals, but not gems. Are those sufficient for the crystal mage, and would their shaping ability work on them, but not the stone masters?

Pearls and Ivory are on their own.

A diamond is both a gem and a crystal (Cubic crystalline structure if I remember correctly), so both the stone masters gem shaping and crystal mages power would work to shape it wouldn't they?

Its a bit confusing, so I am wondering which is right.

Last Thing:

Also, reading some of the spells... While I admire them and their creativity, I do not know that, aside from a few rare spikes of quarts that were rather huge, I dont know that I have seen any orange sized crystals, except for maybe quartz and amethyst (a quartz sub-type).

Where could they possibly get anything that large, let alone pay for it? Can they fuse multiple stones together into a single stone? A quartz the size of an orange would weigh 400 or more carats, and a ruby that size would be even more considering how much it weighs per volume compared to quartz.

A salt crystal?
And since it doesn't have to be a flawless gem quality crystal that opens up a lot of options. If you go online or to a gem show it is pretty easy to find industrial grade crystals of fairly large size. They will not be flawless of the best color... but they will be a crystal and for this purpose that should be sufficient.

eliakon wrote:A salt crystal?
And since it doesn't have to be a flawless gem quality crystal that opens up a lot of options. If you go online or to a gem show it is pretty easy to find industrial grade crystals of fairly large size. They will not be flawless of the best color... but they will be a crystal and for this purpose that should be sufficient.

Yep. salt is a crystal, and only slightly different shape wise from Diamond, its material that makes the differance there. Rock salt in particular, I could see it being used by a stone mage who wanted to mimic Ocean magic, maybe one who specialised inw orking with lemurians for under water cities perhaps? The various water transmutation spells come to mind.

As for quality, that is one of the few methods for telling teh differance between crystal and gem. You can have a hunk of granite that is 50% crystalline material, but 0% of it could ever be used or cut really. Ive seen natural marble statues that have veins of crystal that could never be cut, but is huge and lookes nice when polished. Maybe that form is what they meant. Needless tio say, I'd still like some more weigh ins on this subject.

I do appreciate the ideas though.

Having looked closer though, one more question comes up, the spell that lets them make crystal from rock, which one from the TW list is it that they create? I'd assume clear quartz at best, that being the cheapest on said list.

Crystal mage: #8 is done with the hands. costs 10 PPE per hour.
Stone master: Gem shaping, is done mentally. able to add up to 10% to the skill roll, and if it fails the gem is ruined.

So not quite the same thing.
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Organic Gems....hummm using the science definition of the word organic, that would be diamonds.

[Since you mentioned Pearls and Ivory I am going to presume these are what you meant even thou they are not gems and are not listed as Gems in the SMaster gem list.]
(brainstorming: I can see the use of ivory sourced from different animals might have different magic effects, from the ones listed in the TW List. I would expect the eco-mage ( the biological TW in one of the Dino swamp book) would be able to draw these alternate powers/magic out in their magic items better then the tech oriented TWs.)
{still BStorming: Walrus: swim like a fish. Saber tooth cat: extra blood loss damage, cleanse. Narwal: swim (superior) or *shrugs*. Unicorn: purge: self/other, purification, PPE battery/self PPE regen. Pachyderm: same as TW list. warthog/while pigs: ???? Hippopotamus: ?????}
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Yes, Gems are a sub-set of crystals. However, a good limitation for both of the powers would be the SM gem list. Otherwise the argument

As a GM I would rule that the CM powers are over crystals with a macro-structure of at least 1cc. Any smaller they would not be able to use their OCC powers on/with.
(Have yet to go over their spells so this comment does not cover them.)

I would advise that you be pretty liberal on what is a crystal or not though.
If you try to be picky and use real world science your going to get some pretty unhappiness like metallic crystals, or people wanting to know if they can use this on a kidney stone...
For simplicity sake I would suggest you go with the "its a game not a doctoral thesis" and "its magic not rigid science" as your guide posts.
Thus, in my view...
...if it looks crystalline? Then its a crystal. I am not going to worry about if its really molecularly regular, or if it is actually a semi-amorphous solid or just how regular it is, or if the electron shells line up properly. That doesn't matter here.

Hmmm, both cases have a lot to think about. I suppose it might just be something I'll have to speak about with my fellow Rifts fans. We all have GM'd in our group, so we all know both the pain and pleasure of having to make calls.

Me personally, at least for the rock to crystal spell, I'd say any given variety of quartz, salt, or sulpher.

I also kind of agree with the differences being with the totally by mind versus hand.

One of my fellow players had a Stone master who had a rather large ball of Quartz he'd regularly use to pick locks, mentally shaping the stone as one would use a lock pick set. He did of course have the necessary skills for it at least.

If anyone else has any interpretations or interesting ways to compare the Crystal Mages shaping ability with the Stone Masters, or ideas on which crystals would be made by the stone to crystal spell (particularly since that one even mentions TW's), please, feel free to share them. I like the flow of ideas.

The level 5 spell Summon Crystal?
Here are my thoughts on the spell
1) The spell only works in areas where there are already crystals or semi-precious stones. To me this tells me that the spell can not affect crystals with a value over a certain amount (why? Because magic) You cant just cast it wherever you like and get what ever you want... you have to cast it in a mine area and get an example of the crystal in question with out having to dig it up.

2) I don't think it creates anything. It is a summoning spell, and therefor it does just that. You have to cast it in a mine area because it is summoning a sample of the local crystals or gems and that it simply teleports one of those to your hand. (I would further say that if there aren't sufficient crystals in the vicinity to be summoned, then it doesn't work, or will only work partially)

Therefore:
What crystals it can summon? Anything you can find a mine for that is not more valuable then a semi-precious gemstone.
What can they be used for? Anything, since they are real crystals and were simply mined via summoning magic instead of some other way

eliakon wrote:The level 5 spell Summon Crystal?
Here are my thoughts on the spell
1) The spell only works in areas where there are already crystals or semi-precious stones. To me this tells me that the spell can not affect crystals with a value over a certain amount (why? Because magic) You cant just cast it wherever you like and get what ever you want... you have to cast it in a mine area and get an example of the crystal in question with out having to dig it up.

2) I don't think it creates anything. It is a summoning spell, and therefor it does just that. You have to cast it in a mine area because it is summoning a sample of the local crystals or gems and that it simply teleports one of those to your hand. (I would further say that if there aren't sufficient crystals in the vicinity to be summoned, then it doesn't work, or will only work partially)

Therefore:
What crystals it can summon? Anything you can find a mine for that is not more valuable then a semi-precious gemstone.
What can they be used for? Anything, since they are real crystals and were simply mined via summoning magic instead of some other way

I was actually more inquiring regarding the level 3 spell regarding turning rock into crystal.

LilBryan wrote:

eliakon wrote:The level 5 spell Summon Crystal?
Here are my thoughts on the spell
1) The spell only works in areas where there are already crystals or semi-precious stones. To me this tells me that the spell can not affect crystals with a value over a certain amount (why? Because magic) You cant just cast it wherever you like and get what ever you want... you have to cast it in a mine area and get an example of the crystal in question with out having to dig it up.

2) I don't think it creates anything. It is a summoning spell, and therefor it does just that. You have to cast it in a mine area because it is summoning a sample of the local crystals or gems and that it simply teleports one of those to your hand. (I would further say that if there aren't sufficient crystals in the vicinity to be summoned, then it doesn't work, or will only work partially)

Therefore:
What crystals it can summon? Anything you can find a mine for that is not more valuable then a semi-precious gemstone.
What can they be used for? Anything, since they are real crystals and were simply mined via summoning magic instead of some other way

I was actually more inquiring regarding the level 3 spell regarding turning rock into crystal.

For that, based on the Summon Crystal spell I would deduce the following.
That they have separated crystalline material into 3 types
Crystals which cover "anything that is crystalline that is not in the other two categories"
Semi-Precious gems
Precious Gems

Thus you can turn a rock into any crystal that is not a gemstone.
This will allow you to cast the various crystal magic spells, but not allow you to mass produce some gems to sell.

I would, personally, probably allow most forms of basic crystals to be selected. Right up until my PCs started abusing the spell. Then I would lock it down and either give a selection of options or just say "you get what you get" and then roll myself on a table.

What the text of the turn rock into crystal spell says to me that the spell takes one of the mineral crystal types in the rock, and turns that into a single macro crystal. Discarding the rest of the mineral crystals that make up the rock into dust/sand. (Points out text about the size reduction.)
Thus, the mage would be limited to what type of crystal they can make by the rock they choose to make the crystal from. If the player does not choose what mineral the spell would assemble into the crystal the GM gets to choose (mean or nice) or roll randomly.
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To play the CM a player should read up on RW texts about crystals so the player will know better how to play the char.

LilBryan wrote:Okay, so, just borrow the book from my Gm.

First and foremost: Holy crud, its amazing. Love 90% + of the book. Cant wait to get my own copy soon!

Did notice something though, particularly in the crystal mage OCC.

Power 8, it says the can shape and polish crystals with their hands.

The note just before the skill mentions they don't have the gem shaping powers of the stone master.

Um.... did I miss something?

Last I checked, with the exceptions of the organic ones, everything considered a gem had a crystal structure and was a crystal. Hence: all gems = crystals, not all crystals = gems.

Amorphous stones like Jasper or Malachite are minerals so the Stone Master does have the complete mastery of those types at least, probably Amber as well considering its non-gem non-crystalline petrified nature.

Salt and sugar are crystals, but not gems. Are those sufficient for the crystal mage, and would their shaping ability work on them, but not the stone masters?

Pearls and Ivory are on their own.

A diamond is both a gem and a crystal (Cubic crystalline structure if I remember correctly), so both the stone masters gem shaping and crystal mages power would work to shape it wouldn't they?

Its a bit confusing, so I am wondering which is right.

Last Thing:

Also, reading some of the spells... While I admire them and their creativity, I do not know that, aside from a few rare spikes of quarts that were rather huge, I dont know that I have seen any orange sized crystals, except for maybe quartz and amethyst (a quartz sub-type).

Where could they possibly get anything that large, let alone pay for it? Can they fuse multiple stones together into a single stone? A quartz the size of an orange would weigh 400 or more carats, and a ruby that size would be even more considering how much it weighs per volume compared to quartz.

Addressing you last question on where to get large sized crystals, remember that there are a lot of massive natural deposits out there in the modern era. Jewelry quality gemstones tend to be limited in accessibility and supply by the major jeweler consortiums in today's world. Most gems are simply cut down to 'manageable' sizes, and the excess used as industrial-grade. For a dimensional traveler like a True Atlantean, getting ahold of, say, an emerald the size of a football might be somewhat problematic depending on the GM, it should by no means be impossible.

It mentions that Crystal mages make lasting magical items out of crystal, but do not see any spell for doing so or rules for it. I am not done reading the book, and have only glanced at Crystal mages, but I was wondering if I missed something.

After looking, the only thing it says about making lasting items as a Crystal Mage is that they usually work with a Stone Master or Alchemist to do so. There seems to be an important section of the class missing.

AlanGunhouse wrote:It mentions that Crystal mages make lasting magical items out of crystal, but do not see any spell for doing so or rules for it. I am not done reading the book, and have only glanced at Crystal mages, but I was wondering if I missed something.

After looking, the only thing it says about making lasting items as a Crystal Mage is that they usually work with a Stone Master or Alchemist to do so. There seems to be an important section of the class missing.

Creation of magic items is very rare in Palladium.
There are not a lot of classes that have the ability to make items on their own with out 'off the book' knowledge.
Thus while wizards, and cyrstal mages, and necromancers and what not create a dazzling of magic items to populate adventures and equip NPCs there are few if any rules on the process.
This is deliberate.
The Palladium world was created, intentionally, to be one where magic item creation was the province of the GM. The Techno-Wizard was such a radical class not just for technology but because for the first time it was allowing a PC to have access to significant item creation abilities.

The irony is that the number of crystal spells that create an item already makes this one of the more creation heavy forms of magic in the Megaverse!

Those created items created by the Crystal Mage are temporary for the most part. The exceptions being the two armors (only one of which can be used in any way by anyone but a Tattooed Defender) and the golem. Everything else a Crystal Mage makes, even the crystal palace created by a ritual spell of legend, has a definite time limit. All the described crystal items can not be made by the Crystal Mage alone.

Of course, while there are a number of classes who can create items now, for the most part they are variations on the Techno-wizard.

AlanGunhouse wrote:Those created items created by the Crystal Mage are temporary for the most part. The exceptions being the two armors (only one of which can be used in any way by anyone but a Tattooed Defender) and the golem. Everything else a Crystal Mage makes, even the crystal palace created by a ritual spell of legend, has a definite time limit. All the described crystal items can not be made by the Crystal Mage alone.

Of course, while there are a number of classes who can create items now, for the most part they are variations on the Techno-wizard.

Uhh. There are a lot more items than that the actual "make a permenant item that does something magical" ones are:
Message Stone
Sun Crystal (the crystal once created can be charged/discharged repeatedly)
Image Projection Stone
Crystal Solar Battery
Create Crystal Guardian Armor
Create Crystal Super-Guardian
Create Crystal Golem
Crystal Arch

the long duration ones (months or years):
Crystal Vault
Crystal Tower
Crystal Palace

And of course there are the material ones:
Turn Rock to Cyrstal
Carve and Shape Crystal
Adhere Crystals and Gems
Grow Crystal
Summon Crystal* (not technically a creation but what the heck)

I am not going to count the very temporary ones as those are basically just buffs with a special effect. Even so that is a pretty nice selection of stuff. Remember there are only 46 spells in the entire group after all...