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First of all, let me preface this with what should be blindingly obvious. 2017 was a complete and utter washout with regard to any progress on Wave 2 RTT. No quotes were accepted and all of the updates throughtout the whole year had no tangible proof that Palladium had made any strides to homouring their KS promises to their backers , who entrusted them many years earlier with the sizeable investment of over $1.5 million to deliver.

Okay 2018 what should happen?

1. Palladium must by the end of this month show the final renders for every outstanding model and objective destined for Wave 2.
Why?
This at least proves that they have completed this key milestone in delivering the project and are ready to go to potential manufacturing. If not then after what is soon to be five years the obvious question is why not and exactly what have you been doing to this point.

2. Palladium need to make an obvious decision about the way forward. Are they going to stick with the expensive ABS plastic and therefor ethe vexed issues of parts?
I would suugest moving to a cheaper softer plastic - something on the line of that used by Fantasy Flight for example, may allow for one piece models or at the very worse case maybe four or five piece for larger kits.
Oh but what aboutthe modelling opportunities , all of the models will look the same .....news the actual choices in the first wave were limited unless you had some experience and I contend this would be the case for the one piece models - veterans would stil be able to cut and repose if needed.
I am no expert regarding manufacture and costs, but I assume this would be chaeper, but if anyone has more knowledge of costs and possibilities please chip in

3. Communication has gone from bad, to terrible , to tolerable back to bad.

The bi-weekly updates from Scott were welcome to begin with, but after seven or eight it was becoming obvious that there was no news he wanted to share and was literally just ticking off the box.

Answer, make an effort - afterall someone said you published books as a living? - to maintain a regular update feed, my preference wpuld be once a month with more if something breaks. However, these updates must have information relevant to the KS project and then if time try to push the game to the community, show painted models , share ideas about rules. in short get people talking about the game and not PB's failures

Note the last couple of PBWU's have not even included the almost mandatory cut and paste RTT comments/adverts, this is seriously worrying insomuch it smacks of trying to bury all evidence taht PB were ever involved

As I said at the start PB have quite wilfully let a lot of people down with this project. They launched on a wave of optimism and nostalgia that generated a lot of money and to begin with a lot of goodwill. Look back at the early posts, the work put in by Mike, Jaymz, Captain Karruthers, there were an awful lot of people rooting for RTT and wanted a sucess that would have driven a call to move to later series - especially the Invid I suspect. However, for whatever reasons - as a backer I would love to know what they were, especially after the pointed comments from John Candice) Palladium not only dropped the ball, it then rolled off the pitch under some seats and now they are claiming they cannot find it (and possibly that was the only one they had).

After all of this time the chances of making RTT even a moderate sucess are very slim, but that should not excuse PB from making every effort to keep their side of the bargain. If nothing else it would drawa line under what could be most kindly described as a fiasco and let them go onto other things without the millstone of RTT around their necks.

There are certainly some valid questions there regarding a project that was supposed to take a little over 6 months to complete that is coming up on 60 months with no end in sight. I don't think you'll get any answers from Palladium though.

bielmic wrote:There are certainly some valid questions there regarding a project that was supposed to take a little over 6 months to complete that is coming up on 60 months with no end in sight. I don't think you'll get any answers from Palladium though.

You are right of course, getting answers is as liklely at the moment as palladium actaually coming out and apologising for the complete pig's ear they have made of this.

However, at this point I suggest that these are more relevant than ever, given at some point this year - unless there is a dramatic and unforeseen change - as this project is on its last legs and for all intent and purposes is a failure.

As pointed out in the other long thread we are at the point when palladium have to get real and draw an unchangeable line in the sand as regards manufacture in 2018 and if they cannot meet it face up to the consequences of their failure to deliver

To be fair, we can get a lot of info, just based on the lack of info.

1) Does Palladium want to be transparent in regards to where this project is currently at? Nope.

2) Does Palladium have the renders ready? Nope, or at least unlikely.
*Except the one they showed with the KS with Scott introducing himself, and the bases.

3) Has any progress been made in securing a manufacturer? Nope.
*Notice they were talking about getting quotes at GenCon and then silence. I think it's reasonable to assume, none of the quotes they fielded were at the right price point to make it possible to deliver wave 2.

4) Do project updates have anything to do with actual progress of the project? Nope.

5) Can Scott even stick to a schedule to deliver an "update" in his own timeframe? Apparently not.

If Wave two was a game of Three Card Monte, Palladium is essentially running out of cups, to hide the fact that zero progress has been made.

Yup. Palladium have had over three years (since delivery of Wave 1 starting in October, 2014), to show progress.

We've had the wire frame breakdowns in late February, and that's been it. But everything else has been secret squirrel.

What happened to the quotes that were being discussed in 2015? 2016? Early 2017? Scott got deep enough into the negotiations in his second Update that end of year 2017 was considered a possibility. There were then a few competing parties around GenCon. What happened to those quotes? Was it an issue of price? Could they not handle the volume? Was the volume insufficient (when I was working in metal diecasting, we had minimum volume orders)? Were they not able to handle the specifics? Knowing why something didn't work is an important part of having people accept a delay. And you don't have to do a direct scan of the quote to provide actual information.

And Scott missing the second established deadline in a row without notice (and the third in his tenure), doesn't bode well for things. Someone else at PB could have posted a "Sorry, Scott is sick/busy/dealing with a personal issue/abducted by aliens, and he hopes to have an Update later this week/next week/later this month". No, it would not have gone over well, at least not with a certain portion of the crowd. But it would have helped show a renewed commitment to keeping to timelines that Scott was trying to establish.

That's been an issue for the length of this project, that either a timeframe is just ignored and apologized for later, or in some instances, is announced in advance, but the knowledge that it would be missed has been known for much longer. Example, there's no way when PB said in late September 2013, that there was still a possibility of 2013, that they knew it was possible. They still hadn't approved any pre-production prototypes, let alone test sprues, at that point.

Palladium have kept information from backers so often, it's no wonder so many backers are so skeptical.

I 100% agree with all of this. You know, I and who knows how many of you will be at the Open House. I wonder how many of us will be asking questions about RTT. I'm willing to get on my hands and knees to bag for an answer from them if need be. And just to be clear, I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose.

Alpha 11 wrote:I 100% agree with all of this. You know, I and who knows how many of you will be at the Open House. I wonder how many of us will be asking questions about RTT. I'm willing to get on my hands and knees to bag for an answer from them if need be. And just to be clear, I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose.

I appreciate you spoke up. But you are wrong sir. Let me explain.

All of this is my opinion:

There are two types of wrongs allegedly committed with the project. The first sort is logistical. For whatever reason (which in hindsight doesn't matter), be it the funding wasn't accurately measured, splitting the project into two waves, not understanding the contract with Ninja Division, and a handful of other things; a logistical wrong (or many logistical wrongs) is likely the reason the project hasn't delivered. To this point I agree with you 100%. Palladium didn't get in bed with this project to just fail... That would be ridiculous.

The second type of wrong is deception. Which Palladium is actively participating in... The updates have had literally nothing to do with any progress about the project in like... forever... The quotes that were mentioned... Nothing further on the topic... Did the quotes not get done, were the prices too much, was the manufacturers too busy...? Who knows? I wrote a blog post about what they've said about the project before and after Scott took over... I'm putting it Below.

http://withinthedungeon.blogspot.com/20 ... uotes.html

They are willfully withholding information about the status of the project. It's deception by omission. That is a choice on their part and 100% wrong. I can only speculate why they are doing this... But, most here have already taken their pick. If they have the money they are also literally holding it hostage, from folks who want refunds. And who can blame them...? The project is well past it's due date, with no revised do date in site...

I'll bet if Palladium would offer even half the money back, on items not produced. Everyone in that KS page would jump at it. This leads to speculation... If they have that money... Why not give the refund? (and most put together, that they really don't have the money; neither to produce the second wave, or offer even 50% of unproduced pledge items.

Asking questions about RRT at the open house would be great! But, you're not going to get an answer which is any better than anyone else has gotten... Since this project was broken into to two waves... Some Three years ago.

I agree that you have to separate the "wrongdoing" by palladium by acknowledging that they did not wilfully and purposely misappropriate t the kickstarter funding, ie commit actual fruad. However, I would contend that they have and continue to wilfully mismange this project.

This mismangement takes a couple of forms. The most obvious is the seeming lack of any progress to fulfilling their commitments. However this is not just the major components such as the outstanding wave 2 models and the resin pieces (remember these, there is no reasonable explanation as to why these were not completed years ago in the US). there are also the small incidentals. Evidence of this? Well the Force OOB's finally reemerged in early October 2017 witha nominal six week turnaround - seemed overlong given this was years into the release but hey) yet four months later there is still nothing been posted, it does beggar belief that a publishing house cannot get something like this done in a timely fashion.

The big grey thing, with a trunk in the room is that post by Ninja John that seems to indicate everything was in place to go forward after wave 1 , but then soething happenned.

This then leads onto the second "wrongdoing" the absolute and utter failure to communicate - again from a literary company - is so damning.

The initial failure to produce wave two in the six months after wave 1 was never explained, instead we got an overlong, overblown post from Kevin blaming everyone but himself for the delay without actually detailing what was happnning. This has been the story ever since, update after update has been posted with absolutely no relevant information about progress backed by verifiable evidence - Scott even trumpeted renders seen years bfore.

However, it is here that I would suggest that there is an element of fraud, insomuch that the update (186) adamantly declared the outstanding models were in China being worked on years ago, the same graphic and statement is on the RTT support pages here. This did not happen and so is simply an outright blatant lie that has never been corrected or apologised for.

Alpha, askiing a few questions would be nice but I somehow feel you will get the verbal equivalent of the updates, lots of words no substance. Not bothered to check but are they running any RTT games t the OH this year?

Panomas II wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:I 100% agree with all of this. You know, I and who knows how many of you will be at the Open House. I wonder how many of us will be asking questions about RTT. I'm willing to get on my hands and knees to bag for an answer from them if need be. And just to be clear, I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose.

I appreciate you spoke up. But you are wrong sir. Let me explain.

All of this is my opinion:

There are two types of wrongs allegedly committed with the project. The first sort is logistical. For whatever reason (which in hindsight doesn't matter), be it the funding wasn't accurately measured, splitting the project into two waves, not understanding the contract with Ninja Division, and a handful of other things; a logistical wrong (or many logistical wrongs) is likely the reason the project hasn't delivered. To this point I agree with you 100%. Palladium didn't get in bed with this project to just fail... That would be ridiculous.

The second type of wrong is deception. Which Palladium is actively participating in... The updates have had literally nothing to do with any progress about the project in like... forever... The quotes that were mentioned... Nothing further on the topic... Did the quotes not get done, were the prices too much, was the manufacturers too busy...? Who knows? I wrote a blog post about what they've said about the project before and after Scott took over... I'm putting it Below.

http://withinthedungeon.blogspot.com/20 ... uotes.html

They are willfully withholding information about the status of the project. It's deception by omission. That is a choice on their part and 100% wrong. I can only speculate why they are doing this... But, most here have already taken their pick. If they have the money they are also literally holding it hostage, from folks who want refunds. And who can blame them...? The project is well past it's due date, with no revised do date in site...

I'll bet if Palladium would offer even half the money back, on items not produced. Everyone in that KS page would jump at it. This leads to speculation... If they have that money... Why not give the refund? (and most put together, that they really don't have the money; neither to produce the second wave, or offer even 50% of unproduced pledge items.

Asking questions about RRT at the open house would be great! But, you're not going to get an answer which is any better than anyone else has gotten... Since this project was broken into to two waves... Some Three years ago.

I think you misunderstood me a little. It is wrong what they are doing in not telling us why this is all happening. Or maybe I wasn't clear on what I was meaning? Most likely that.

wilycoyote wrote: However, it is here that I would suggest that there is an element of fraud, insomuch that the update (186) adamantly declared the outstanding models were in China being worked on years ago, the same graphic and statement is on the RTT support pages here. This did not happen and so is simply an outright blatant lie that has never been corrected or apologised for.

Just playing Devil's advocate, but what if they had sent them over. And what info do you have that they hadn't? Just wanting to know were you got that info. And I'm not saying the Kevin hasn't made any bad calls, but what if things just when out of control so fast, they him or anyone at Palladium couldn't do anything to stop it? And as was said, thing were going along and then stopped. Could that "event" have left them in a panic, and then they think, lets not tell anyone and have them panic and then solve this, then explain what happen and go on. Them thinking it most likely wouldn't take to long. That is when they started digging their own grave on this matter. I'm just throwing ideals out there again, and could be completely wrong. As for an RTT tournament, it's on the list of things they want to do. I do play the game still, and still enjoy playing it, so I hope to play people at the OH. I'm the only one who plays the game where I live, so I have to get my friend and brother in law to play me (I have both sides). And they've enjoyed playing it. Anyways, as long a some those are willing to play me at the OH, I will be mailing my stuff there so I can play. In the end, this doesn't make any sence. I've successfully backed several KS's and the majority of them have be very upfront with updates and or problems that have come up, so why hasn't they done the some thing. It's obveriuolsy not working good doing it this way, so they should try doing something else. Sorry if I went to long on this.

2018! #YearOfAccountability!!!

I didn't misunderstand what you said... Bold Emphasis mine.

:::Snip:::

Alpha 11 wrote:I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose.

Have done nothing wrong? On purpose...? They are doing it right now, in a myriad of ways...

1) Nobody knows anything about the state of wave 2 beyond the inner circle; lack of transparency, despite the promise (in the spirit of Kickstarter) to do so. All information backers have in regards to a way forward... is Palladium saying, "we are working on it." Transparency would be specifically describing that work. To do otherwise and for a (bolded and capped for emphasis, not yelling) 3 years since the first wave delivered is WRONG. Think about that, 3 years.

2) Minor as it is... The project manager is starting to slip on his own projected updates... He tells backers... And I'm paraphrasing: "I don't expect you to trust me, I have to earn that trust..." How is missing your own projected update, a way to earn trust? If you're the project manager, you are literally saying: "my word isn't enough." This is the project managers job. He is not doing his job, and not doing a job you are hired to do, is wrong. Isn't it. ( I think so) Most of us, have things in work that we don't want to do... But we do them, because if we don't there will be negative repercussion.

3) Three years without a way forward... Let's take Kevin at his word...

Update #186: Aug 26 2015

By: Kevin Siembieda

“…I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books.”

The point that he is making here is obvious... That at that date they still had the money, hadn't done any overspending, which some were speculating about. But, what about now? Even if Palladium has the money to produce the second wave, they have been holding onto that money for almost five years since the project started... Three years since the first wave delivered. I would contend it is wrong to hold onto that money, which Kevin clearly states they have... No way forward for one year? OK. Two years? ehhh... But, Three? Get real, give people their money back.

What is the way forward? Who knows? But one thing is for certain, in that Palladium will be mum on the topic. Let's take some examples from the updates (which I blogged about, direct from Kevin. What follows here is pretty much the opposite of transparency, and is more like the definitions of generalization and secrecy.

“…we have not been able to show you physical work, because we are exploring different possible solutions…”

“As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.”

“…as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering.“

“As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.”

“We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.”

“We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is.”

After this we are well into 2017 and Kevin Starts talking about "Quotes." And Then Scott Takes over... Also Talks about Quotes... Then they pair the quotes down, obviously don't get an offer.. They want, or can afford... But do they admit that, NO. That's a choice they make right there... A choice to stop talking about it. Because if after three years, they admit that they were getting quotes... And then admit they got quotes that they couldn't afford, people would know the project is dead. Maybe refunds? Or... People would know Palladium doesn't have the money to produce wave 2... But, instead, nothing is said... How did the quotes go. Not a word. We only get to guess...

Nothing wrong...?

I don't think so...

Panomas II wrote:I didn't misunderstand what you said... Bold Emphasis mine.

:::Snip:::

Alpha 11 wrote:I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose.

Have done nothing wrong? On purpose...? They are doing it right now, in a myriad of ways...

1) Nobody knows anything about the state of wave 2 beyond the inner circle; lack of transparency, despite the promise (in the spirit of Kickstarter) to do so. All information backers have in regards to a way forward... is Palladium saying, "we are working on it." Transparency would be specifically describing that work. To do otherwise and for a (bolded and capped for emphasis, not yelling) 3 years since the first wave delivered is WRONG. Think about that, 3 years.

2) Minor as it is... The project manager is starting to slip on his own projected updates... He tells backers... And I'm paraphrasing: "I don't expect you to trust me, I have to earn that trust..." How is missing your own projected update, a way to earn trust? If you're the project manager, you are literally saying: "my word isn't enough." This is the project managers job. He is not doing his job, and not doing a job you are hired to do, is wrong. Isn't it. ( I think so) Most of us, have things in work that we don't want to do... But we do them, because if we don't there will be negative repercussion.

3) Three years without a way forward... Let's take Kevin at his word...

Update #186: Aug 26 2015

By: Kevin Siembieda

“…I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books.”

The point that he is making here is obvious... That at that date they still had the money, hadn't done any overspending, which some were speculating about. But, what about now? Even if Palladium has the money to produce the second wave, they have been holding onto that money for almost five years since the project started... Three years since the first wave delivered. I would contend it is wrong to hold onto that money, which Kevin clearly states they have... No way forward for one year? OK. Two years? ehhh... But, Three? Get real, give people their money back.

What is the way forward? Who knows? But one thing is for certain, in that Palladium will be mum on the topic. Let's take some examples from the updates (which I blogged about, direct from Kevin. What follows here is pretty much the opposite of transparency, and is more like the definitions of generalization and secrecy.

“…we have not been able to show you physical work, because we are exploring different possible solutions…”

“As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.”

“…as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering.“

“As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.”

“We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.”

“We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is.”

After this we are well into 2017 and Kevin Starts talking about "Quotes." And Then Scott Takes over... Also Talks about Quotes... Then they pair the quotes down, obviously don't get an offer.. They want, or can afford... But do they admit that, NO. That's a choice they make right there... A choice to stop talking about it. Because if after three years, they admit that they were getting quotes... And then admit they got quotes that they couldn't afford, people would know the project is dead. Maybe refunds? Or... People would know Palladium doesn't have the money to produce wave 2... But, instead, nothing is said... How did the quotes go. Not a word. We only get to guess...

Nothing wrong...?

I don't think so...

My bad then, I said it the wrong way. And I said it in my reply: what they are doing in not telling us things is wrong. I'm on your side on that part. I should have been more clear in what I was saying. Take out them not telling us and this quote " I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. ", goes to the rest about RTT. Hope that clears things up. If not, I'll try to explain it again.

Alpha 11 wrote:

Panomas II wrote:I didn't misunderstand what you said... Bold Emphasis mine.

:::Snip:::

Alpha 11 wrote:I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose.

Have done nothing wrong? On purpose...? They are doing it right now, in a myriad of ways...

1) Nobody knows anything about the state of wave 2 beyond the inner circle; lack of transparency, despite the promise (in the spirit of Kickstarter) to do so. All information backers have in regards to a way forward... is Palladium saying, "we are working on it." Transparency would be specifically describing that work. To do otherwise and for a (bolded and capped for emphasis, not yelling) 3 years since the first wave delivered is WRONG. Think about that, 3 years.

2) Minor as it is... The project manager is starting to slip on his own projected updates... He tells backers... And I'm paraphrasing: "I don't expect you to trust me, I have to earn that trust..." How is missing your own projected update, a way to earn trust? If you're the project manager, you are literally saying: "my word isn't enough." This is the project managers job. He is not doing his job, and not doing a job you are hired to do, is wrong. Isn't it. ( I think so) Most of us, have things in work that we don't want to do... But we do them, because if we don't there will be negative repercussion.

3) Three years without a way forward... Let's take Kevin at his word...

Update #186: Aug 26 2015

By: Kevin Siembieda

“…I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books.”

The point that he is making here is obvious... That at that date they still had the money, hadn't done any overspending, which some were speculating about. But, what about now? Even if Palladium has the money to produce the second wave, they have been holding onto that money for almost five years since the project started... Three years since the first wave delivered. I would contend it is wrong to hold onto that money, which Kevin clearly states they have... No way forward for one year? OK. Two years? ehhh... But, Three? Get real, give people their money back.

What is the way forward? Who knows? But one thing is for certain, in that Palladium will be mum on the topic. Let's take some examples from the updates (which I blogged about, direct from Kevin. What follows here is pretty much the opposite of transparency, and is more like the definitions of generalization and secrecy.

“…we have not been able to show you physical work, because we are exploring different possible solutions…”

“As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.”

“…as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering.“

“As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.”

“We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.”

“We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is.”

After this we are well into 2017 and Kevin Starts talking about "Quotes." And Then Scott Takes over... Also Talks about Quotes... Then they pair the quotes down, obviously don't get an offer.. They want, or can afford... But do they admit that, NO. That's a choice they make right there... A choice to stop talking about it. Because if after three years, they admit that they were getting quotes... And then admit they got quotes that they couldn't afford, people would know the project is dead. Maybe refunds? Or... People would know Palladium doesn't have the money to produce wave 2... But, instead, nothing is said... How did the quotes go. Not a word. We only get to guess...

Nothing wrong...?

I don't think so...

My bad then, I said it the wrong way. And I said it in my reply: what they are doing in not telling us things is wrong. I'm on your side on that part. I should have been more clear in what I was saying. Take out them not telling us and this quote " I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. ", goes to the rest about RTT. Hope that clears things up. If not, I'll try to explain it again.

You're fine. And no worries.

Panomas II wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:

Panomas II wrote:I didn't misunderstand what you said... Bold Emphasis mine.

:::Snip:::

Alpha 11 wrote:I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose.

Have done nothing wrong? On purpose...? They are doing it right now, in a myriad of ways...

1) Nobody knows anything about the state of wave 2 beyond the inner circle; lack of transparency, despite the promise (in the spirit of Kickstarter) to do so. All information backers have in regards to a way forward... is Palladium saying, "we are working on it." Transparency would be specifically describing that work. To do otherwise and for a (bolded and capped for emphasis, not yelling) 3 years since the first wave delivered is WRONG. Think about that, 3 years.

2) Minor as it is... The project manager is starting to slip on his own projected updates... He tells backers... And I'm paraphrasing: "I don't expect you to trust me, I have to earn that trust..." How is missing your own projected update, a way to earn trust? If you're the project manager, you are literally saying: "my word isn't enough." This is the project managers job. He is not doing his job, and not doing a job you are hired to do, is wrong. Isn't it. ( I think so) Most of us, have things in work that we don't want to do... But we do them, because if we don't there will be negative repercussion.

3) Three years without a way forward... Let's take Kevin at his word...

Update #186: Aug 26 2015

By: Kevin Siembieda

“…I want you to know there has not been any misappropriation of the funds raised by the Kickstarter, nor any wrongdoing of any kind. Not by me or anyone at Palladium Books.”

The point that he is making here is obvious... That at that date they still had the money, hadn't done any overspending, which some were speculating about. But, what about now? Even if Palladium has the money to produce the second wave, they have been holding onto that money for almost five years since the project started... Three years since the first wave delivered. I would contend it is wrong to hold onto that money, which Kevin clearly states they have... No way forward for one year? OK. Two years? ehhh... But, Three? Get real, give people their money back.

What is the way forward? Who knows? But one thing is for certain, in that Palladium will be mum on the topic. Let's take some examples from the updates (which I blogged about, direct from Kevin. What follows here is pretty much the opposite of transparency, and is more like the definitions of generalization and secrecy.

“…we have not been able to show you physical work, because we are exploring different possible solutions…”

“As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.”

“…as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering.“

“As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.”

“We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.”

“We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is.”

After this we are well into 2017 and Kevin Starts talking about "Quotes." And Then Scott Takes over... Also Talks about Quotes... Then they pair the quotes down, obviously don't get an offer.. They want, or can afford... But do they admit that, NO. That's a choice they make right there... A choice to stop talking about it. Because if after three years, they admit that they were getting quotes... And then admit they got quotes that they couldn't afford, people would know the project is dead. Maybe refunds? Or... People would know Palladium doesn't have the money to produce wave 2... But, instead, nothing is said... How did the quotes go. Not a word. We only get to guess...

Nothing wrong...?

I don't think so...

My bad then, I said it the wrong way. And I said it in my reply: what they are doing in not telling us things is wrong. I'm on your side on that part. I should have been more clear in what I was saying. Take out them not telling us and this quote " I almost 100% sure they have done nothing wrong, just that things have gone VERY wrong and or they did things the wrong way to create more work for them and waste money, but not on purpose. ", goes to the rest about RTT. Hope that clears things up. If not, I'll try to explain it again.

You're fine. And no worries.

Cool!

Oh I do like a good discussion.

Anyway Alpha, regarding my comment on the wave 2 and PB's claim that they were sent to China, this is a flat statement that they purport to be fact - same update 186 Aug 2015 and the RTT resource page posted around the same date.

Now, if those renders were sent and for whatever reason this fell through, this was a critical moment in the project, presupposing that PB still had funds and this was the same manufacturer set up by Ninja Division. Note at this point there was no indication that PB/Kevin has changed the factory or were considering lower parts counts etc and so there was nothing to suggest that they were not following the original plan, set out when they made the decision to split into two waves. I strongly contend that if this was the point of absolute failure that they had to know that they had to let the backers know. Therefore by withholding that information and continuing to stand by their graphic, this is a deliberate move to mislead and therefore could be interpreted as a fraudelent act.

This was nearly three years ago and as we all know only to well no progress to actual manufacturing has been made - the quotes fiasco alone has spanned well over a year. During this time costs have obviously risen - especially biting are those for postage - which we should be able to divine that the monies left will not go as far - basic economics for 5 year olds - so it begs the obvious question, are PB still able to cover the costs of the outstanding rewards?

I cannot answer that because I simply do not have that information and so have to speculate. However, the continuing act of empty updates to simply "kick the can down the road" would seem indicative of stalling and unless I am way of the mark is a striong piece of evidence to say that PB cannot fulfil their promises.

So that being the case - I think Morgan stated this before - they must simply stop pretending, set themselves a final deadline after which point if nothing can happen, they declare the project failed and start the unavoidable and very unpalatable discussion of refunds

wilycoyote wrote:So that being the case - I think Morgan stated this before - they must simply stop pretending, set themselves a final deadline after which point if nothing can happen, they declare the project failed and start the unavoidable and very unpalatable discussion of refunds

Yup. That's been me.

And as I also said, they don't have to commit to an unrealistically aggressive position. with Palladium trademark optimism.

On Scott's addendum to his first post, Scott said that end of year was a possibility. That would have been 27 weeks. So triple it. That's 81 weeks. Add in another 20 weeks for incidentals like GenCon, POH, Chinese New Year, anything else where PB can't dedicate themselves to getting it done. That's 101 weeks.

Which not coincidentally (I worked from that date backwards), would be end of year, 2019, from next Tuesday, when the next Kickstarter Update would be due if the last one had been on time.

Also, it's approximately the amount of time that Wave one took, to go from something beyond a concept, to completion of Wave 1. There were statements that active development started approximately six months before the Kickstarter Launch, putting it at mid November, 2012. And it started shipping in early October 2014. That's 98 weeks.

As we've seen, there's been some work on the Wave 2 stuff (PPP's of GEldare and FPA, digital sculpts of most if not all other units, wireframe work in the 2015 Update), so they're in a better position for Wave 2 than they were for Wave 1.

So I think I'm setting a REALLY low bar for completion at EoY2019, if there's ANY kind of drive to complete the project. So there should be no reason for PB to commit in a meaningful way, by setting a terminal point. The only reason not to, is if it's their intent to keep kicking this can down the road.

That's an excellent point...

So the actual Drop Dead date, based on what we can assume at this time is a totally idle project (rebooting) vs the license running out... Would be sometime around the next six months? Right?

And that would be the next six months for them to be able to say... Manufacturing has started... This is why nothing will get done.

What happens to the product that is already made when the license runs out will they be able to still sell it?

And +100 points to Two Gun Bob over at the Robotech RPG Tactics comments section in while waiting for another late update; I was laughing so hard I was choking on my coffee.

Panomas II wrote:That's an excellent point...

So the actual Drop Dead date, based on what we can assume at this time is a totally idle project (rebooting) vs the license running out... Would be sometime around the next six months? Right?

And that would be the next six months for them to be able to say... Manufacturing has started... This is why nothing will get done.

What happens to the product that is already made when the license runs out will they be able to still sell it?

And +100 points to Two Gun Bob over at the Robotech RPG Tactics comments section in while waiting for another late update; I was laughing so hard I was choking on my coffee.

Not sure what you're meaning there. I'm suggesting the end of 2019, and the speculation on the license running out, via the court cases reported on, is March 2021. Plenty of time in there for PB to extract a return on investment. And that's assuming they need 23 months to get it done. According to Scott, 6 months is feasible if they can get their ducks in a row. That'd give them over two and a half years. Given the size and variety of the Gen 2 and Gen 3 stuff, it SHOULD be possible to fulfill the promise of getting the complete series into production with sufficient time to maximize returns, before the speculated contract lapses.

I honestly don't know what the laws are with regards sales of previously licensed material. I'm pretty sure they're still allowed to sell it, but that they're not allowed to make any more (so if the cores run out, they're stuck trying to only sell expansion packs). Could be wrong. IP law is murky.

If I am not mistaken...the KS ToS states that if a project fails the creators must refund the backers with whatever remaining funds there are to the best of their ability.

If that is the case then declaring a failure will actually do nothing to Palladium as if they have no money to refund with then they do not have to refund and there is no recourse regardless. This, to me, has entirely more to do with a certain someone's ego than reality.

jaymz wrote:If I am not mistaken...the KS ToS states that if a project fails the creators must refund the backers with whatever remaining funds there are to the best of their ability.

If that is the case then declaring a failure will actually do nothing to Palladium as if they have no money to refund with then they do not have to refund and there is no recourse regardless. This, to me, has entirely more to do with a certain someone's ego than reality.

There are two Kickstarter T&C's. The current onehas several clauses that while a bit more lenient overall, PB could easily run afoul of. Particularly the one about timeframes communicated to backers, and no material misrepresentation. I'm not accusing PB of misappropriation, unless they broached the "omega point" (the minimum funding level required to complete the project) and have been spending money on trying to complete a project they're financially unable to complete. There has been no evidence of that, though speculation has run rampant. Given that Wave 1 was produced, they should have a good estimate of what the omega point is, and I've got to think it's going to be at least in the 300-500K range, if not in the 750K+ range. Because while the number of models needed from each sprue is significantly less, and there's significantly less paper product, there's twice as many molds as the previous production run. And those are quite expensive. So while people in that position might not get their full allotment, there should still be significant funds available to offer a partial refund.

However, that's mostly irrelevant, as it applies to Kickstarters after October 2014. The one that applies to RRT is the previous one, as it was launched before October 2014. The only lines that mention refund, are listed below, and say nothing about "remaining funds" like the new ones do.

Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
Project Creators may cancel or refund a Backer’s pledge at any time and for any reason, and if they do so, are not required to fulfill the reward.

Now, with a few Kickstarters I've been involved in, people have sacrificed their pledge, or been willing to accept alternate resources and/or a straight up lesser amount, that relies on backers being gracious. With the way Palladium squandered their goodwill, I can't see a significant number of backers being so understanding, given the promises still being made, as recently as six months ago.

Herein lies the core of the problem that Palladium seems to have about completing the project by manufacturing and delivering the wave 2 models.

It seems entirely possible that given the delay and risings costs of both producing the models, as well as the (perhaps more critical) massive costs for postage that Palladium realise (I would more correctly say realised years ago but do not have evidence for that) that unless they receive another massive cash windfall then they have used the KS funds and do not have anything left to cover these costs. Therefore they know they have failed and cannot deliver, but cannot say so without laying themselves open to the key part of the creator/backer contract highlighted above, that they must refund.

Given that the overwhelming majority of backers are unlilley to accept any offer of store credit on existing Palladium product (including whatever is left of the wave 1 models) - in anycase shipping especially outside the US might scupper this, afterall could PB charge for shipping to offset not delivering in the first place - then monetary refunds would be required.

Now previously Kevin used the retail values of wave one, to suggest that we backers had already had more than our investment and it works on one level. However, if that is the case we were promised the wave 2 product which could be valued in the same way, I am sure Palladium do not want to go down that route.

A pro rata refund of say one third of the pledge might be closer to the required figure, but again Palladium would be looking at a $300k outlay that garners them absolutely nothing, to be blunt that is not happenning.

So we are at this impasse, Palladium cannot complete and know it but to admit it means they will lose a shedload of money. So what happens, absolutely nothing as regards progress, just occasional updates to kick the can down the road , stallling to avoid their responsibilities.

I would really like someone at palladium to come to the RTT KS board and set out the project plan with the remaining milestones and for once be honest with the backers, for better or for worse,afterall it would not change their overiding stategy one iota - non admission of their failure to deliver.

wilycoyote wrote:Herein lies the core of the problem that Palladium seems to have about completing the project by manufacturing and delivering the wave 2 models.

It seems entirely possible that given the delay and risings costs of both producing the models, as well as the (perhaps more critical) massive costs for postage that Palladium realise (I would more correctly say realised years ago but do not have evidence for that) that unless they receive another massive cash windfall then they have used the KS funds and do not have anything left to cover these costs. Therefore they know they have failed and cannot deliver, but cannot say so without laying themselves open to the key part of the creator/backer contract highlighted above, that they must refund.

Given that the overwhelming majority of backers are unlilley to accept any offer of store credit on existing Palladium product (including whatever is left of the wave 1 models) - in anycase shipping especially outside the US might scupper this, afterall could PB charge for shipping to offset not delivering in the first place - then monetary refunds would be required.

Now previously Kevin used the retail values of wave one, to suggest that we backers had already had more than our investment and it works on one level. However, if that is the case we were promised the wave 2 product which could be valued in the same way, I am sure Palladium do not want to go down that route.

A pro rata refund of say one third of the pledge might be closer to the required figure, but again Palladium would be looking at a $300k outlay that garners them absolutely nothing, to be blunt that is not happenning.

So we are at this impasse, Palladium cannot complete and know it but to admit it means they will lose a shedload of money. So what happens, absolutely nothing as regards progress, just occasional updates to kick the can down the road , stallling to avoid their responsibilities.

I would really like someone at palladium to come to the RTT KS board and set out the project plan with the remaining milestones and for once be honest with the backers, for better or for worse,afterall it would not change their overiding stategy one iota - non admission of their failure to deliver.

As would I, but as one of my former NCOs was fond of saying, we can wish in one hand and #2 in the other. We all know which one's getting filled first.

The Beast wrote:As would I, but as one of my former NCOs was fond of saying, we can wish in one hand and #2 in the other. We all know which one's getting filled first.

Classic.

My other favorite is: "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

As another week drifts by with still no update from Scott, no mention in the PBWU and maybe more telling still noone from PB logging onto Kickstarter - it has been over three weeks, - it really does beg the question of whether or not Palladium now consider this to be the end game and that by totally ignoring the backers and Kickstarter (I have raised tproblems three times in the last quarter and the reply from Kickstarter is that even they cannot get a reply, so what chance us?).

It is fast approaching the fifth anniversary of the launch and for me three years since I got wave one What since not an awful lot apart from digital product that quite frankly shou;d have already shipped with the wave one product. The Force OOB is five years late really but even Scott's promised one is now running three months over. The less said about Wayne's promised status update the batter, it simply has never materialised. The scenario book and Ghost Fleet (whatever that was supposed to be) seem to have been consigned to the Ideas box.

Ah but after 18 months of looking for quotes surely PB have found someone, er ghe answer is an emphatic no. This is perhaps the most alarming point of the process. Five years on and nothing but if we are generous go back to late 2016when every update/PBWU mentioned looking at quotes, thiis compamy supposdly withthe funding to enter agreements cannot find a suitable partner - I call hogwash, something stinks and needs to be cleaned up.

As it stands it will be the Chinese New 2016, then Adepticon, then the PB Open House and then Gencom. Sorry, but I simply do not believe Palladium will deliver even the contract to start manufacture nevermind complete it , in 2018. The cloxk has continued to tick and there are plenty better informed than I am who have mapped out the timelines - albeit a shorter timeline would happen if extra cash was available but that is hardly an option here.

I am really non plussed what Palladium are trying to acheive here, by their continuing policy of silence. They must nkow that the numbers of backers who are becoming more vocal and not being passive is growing and this will have a detrimental effect on anything tey do outside the Rifts IP - that said the Rifts boardgame, ill thought out as it was, evidences that some will flag their greivances whereever.

The phrase "working like demons" seems to be favourite on the PBWU. may I respectfully ask that someone (Kevin?) works just as hard in the next week to produce a full, frank and honest assessment of where this project stands and what is actually being done to bring it to either a successful end or if that is not possible outline what PB plan to do about refunding the long suffering backers.

Drifting slightly away from the line, can anyone at Palladium confirm whether or not Scott is still an employee ?

The question was raised in the All About Palladium forum and the answer was he was on holiday, that thread subsequeny locked down.

However, that was on 22nd December and nearly two months later we have heard nothing, even a brief apology for his absence , from Scott or anyone at PB.

Given the year (2017) started with the news of immenent contracts being signed, that drifted to Scott's announcement of two preferred manufacturers in August, what happenned ? The two month slience that is now ongoing is again truly disheartening for anyone who has a stake in the completion of the project.

So simple enough question "Where is Scott?"

wilycoyote wrote:Drifting slightly away from the line, can anyone at Palladium confirm whether or not Scott is still an employee ?

The question was raised in the All About Palladium forum and the answer was he was on holiday, that thread subsequeny locked down.

However, that was on 22nd December and nearly two months later we have heard nothing, even a brief apology for his absence , from Scott or anyone at PB.

Given the year (2017) started with the news of immenent contracts being signed, that drifted to Scott's announcement of two preferred manufacturers in August, what happenned ? The two month slience that is now ongoing is again truly disheartening for anyone who has a stake in the completion of the project.

So simple enough question "Where is Scott?"

Scott is still employed by Palladium. He is working on RRT, the Bestiaries, the Open House, and other business matters.

Thanks for the information.

Back to the matter in hand

Well it is here again, the Chinese New Year is tomorrow and so yet again Palladium have missed a key date and will now be waiting at least a month before getting any sort of contract completed - if of course you can be persauded they are actively looking to get one....-. That brings us neatly to Adepticon and another three week lay off, not factoring in Convention crud. I am not even going to bother with the Palladium Open House or maybe I should as is and will tie up time that Scott and Kevin should be using for RTT - 5.5k backers and $1.5million reasons that this should be so.

So it is not too early to say that nothing, repeat NOTHING will be manufactured for Wave 2 in 2018. This means that after five and a half years Palladium have not fulfilled their part of the contract with the backers

So..........?

Enough is enough. it is so far beyond the estimated deadline, that Palladium (Kevin in partticular) must grasp this nettle in their fist and simply announce they have failed, nothing less seems to be the answer at this point. Then they can explain what went wrong, where the monies went and what theu are prepared to offer to recompese the backer community.

Wait, they could still produce the minis in a softer plastic as one piece monopose models? Perhaps, but after five years do yu really believe a completely new direction would result in anything in the next two or three? It is truly frustrating when you see the quality hard plastic minis and vehicek produced for Star Wars legin, albeit a littel unfair to compare games, apples and oranges springs to mind

I think Spinachat got in right in another thread when he said there is little point in producing models to spark a dead game that would have to rely on jaded and disgruntled people to fan the flames back to life.

Anything else, what about the 3d files could they be released to the backer community as a show of faith. Something I know very little about but these be of use to backers for home printing with a caveat on resales?

Palladium are the only people who can do this and it might be a little strong but for the sake of any future ideas they might have about producing a miniatures version of something like Rifts, it would seem best to come clean and admit defeat.

Time then to draw that final line under this unmitigated disaster and close the book

wilycoyote wrote:Anything else, what about the 3d files could they be released to the backer community as a show of faith. Something I know very little about but these be of use to backers for home printing with a caveat on resales?

Palladium are the only people who can do this and it might be a little strong but for the sake of any future ideas they might have about producing a miniatures version of something like Rifts, it would seem best to come clean and admit defeat.

That might not be permitted under the licensing agreement. It's one thing to license to produce and sell someone else's IP. It's completely another to essentially "public domain" it, even if you tried to restrict it to only backers, or something (and I'm sure everyone who bought at retail would be happy to be excluded from the final 2/3 of Gen 1).

As much as it'd be a salve for some backers, people who had no interest in personal 3d printing, or aren't willing to sink more into having it done at what, close to MSRP*, at Shapeways etc, it gives nothing. And I'd wager that'd be the larger percentage of backers.

* I'm assuming a model of the size of an AValk or FPA is in the $7-$10 range, if not more? I haven't played around with Shapeways, but I don't imagine it'd be a cheap option.

Thanks Morgan, that was helpful.

Well as we enter another will he won't he Tuesday, I took a trip down memeory lane and trawled through the PBWU archive to re read the extravagent claims - and let us be kind untruths - that were being bandied about in 203 through 2015.

One favourite from January 2014 "f we wait until EVERY item in the Kickstarter has gone through engineering, tooling, and quality control before sending it ALL into manufacturing, you will not get them until freakin’ Autumn. We don’t want that, and we know you sure don’t." which of course referred to the arbitary decision to split the release into two waves - strange the talk of money woes now, when this was obviously going to another massive rise in the already unaccounted for postage charges. I really "like" the annoyance at having us wait until the Autumn. Whoever wrote this must be incandescent after waiting another four years and counting.

More worryingly there are a lot of posts by Kevin in 2014 that specifically state that wave 2 items were being tooled and engineered - remember the KS Update 186 was adamant that the models had been sent and were in China, see the RTT resources page here.

Okay, if I was gathering evidence against PB that would seem to be an outright lie to the backers. If not what exactly happenned then in 2014?

The timeline suggests possible problems when Ninja Division finished their work and moved on - mid/late 2014. What happenned to all that work , tooling, moulds etc. Was this another expenditure that was simply written off against Kickstarter funds., in other words a loss.

The more I check and cross referemce thePBWU and the Kickstarter updates the more obvious it seems to be that very little has been done or accomplished, beyond a few prototype renders, in the four years following Wave 1 manufacture.

Thw project raised over $1.5 million , a massive amount for a miniatures game, so has and is anyone keeping tabs on expenditure? are there currently enough funds available to cover both manufacture and distribution of the outstanding wave 2 items? A negative to either of these is obviously a sign - if it was not blazingly clear - already that this project is on its last legs and more than likley must be considered an abject failure.

Is anyone at Palladium going to stand up and prove me wrong and will anyone actually finally put a line under this and start the painful process of explanation and refunds?

Just a shoret point about the latest KS update, advising of the bad link. I am a simple man but the fact PB posted about this leads me to believe that someone there is monitoring the board and so was awre of the issue.

However, that same someone - note the update was anomynous? - did notr bother to also report that there was a growing disatisfaction that there has been nothing from PB for nearly two months. Given we are on the cusp if the fifth anniversary of this project's launch, I wouyld think PB would want to pay a little more attention. Sadly, the Open House seems to the focus, to be followed bty Adepticon then Gencon?

It is eighteen months since PB were suppposed to have ghad two preferred bidders to finally complete, but that line is dead and not mentioned in the last quarter.

Time for PB to squaer their shoulders and fess up. My opinion, the game is dead, PB cannot or are totally unwilling to complete, this means it is a FAILURE. This means PB have to live up to their contract and refund the backers, who should also be allowed to see exactly how PB squandered $1.5 plus million

wilycoyote wrote:Just a shoret point about the latest KS update, advising of the bad link. I am a simple man but the fact PB posted about this leads me to believe that someone there is monitoring the board and so was awre of the issue.

However, that same someone - note the update was anomynous? - did notr bother to also report that there was a growing disatisfaction that there has been nothing from PB for nearly two months. Given we are on the cusp if the fifth anniversary of this project's launch, I wouyld think PB would want to pay a little more attention. Sadly, the Open House seems to the focus, to be followed bty Adepticon then Gencon?

Oh, someone at PB is aware. The Facebook page operator (again anonymous) has said as such. That Scott is still with the company, still working on projects, and one of those projects being RRT.

I don't blame them for wanting to be anonymous. And it's someone different to Scott, unless Scott has taken to talking in the third person.

So they're fully aware that the schedule has been shot to heck, but as I've said before, they probably don't see an upside to it. Take the last Update. It had 63 posts in the first 2 days. It has had 6 in the last 2. Each Update awakens people's ire if they've got nothing of import to say. So unless they've got something of significance to report, with concrete details, then they're saving themselves from being on the pokey end of pitchforks, and out of the burny end of torches. Regardless of if it's deserved or not, there's simply no benefit to riling up the mob, unless they've got something to say.

That does mean more backers get disheartened and apathetic, and that's going to be a problem if PB is interested in actually doing a relaunch. But I'm not confident it could have been successful if it'd been done two years ago, let alone this year or the next. And don't kid yourself, unless contracts are signed, and progress is breakneck behind the scenes, completing Wave 2 is approaching impossible for this year. You've probably got 3, maybe 4 months to have digital sculpts, PPP's, sprue layouts and molds milled, before 2018 goes the way of the last three years.

TLDR: Better for PB not to post, but worse for backers. Approaching another wasted year.

Morgan Vening wrote:TLDR: Better for PB not to post, but worse for backers. Approaching another wasted year.

There was some discussion that KS requires updates at certain intervals for a project to be considered still in-progress. If this is true, PB should just post those, as short as possible, and nothing else unless actual progress can be shown. And, as I've said previously, I question whether finishing Wave 2 would be in PB's interest at this stage.

I guess that depends if the base box is doing well in retail or online sales. I have no idea. I've never seen it in any Los Angeles game store, and PB books are rarely in my FLGS (which sells plenty of RPGs). The only book I usually see is RIFTS Ultimate Edition.

If PB were to simply go silent, I doubt that would be worse for backers at this stage. At this point, silence is merciful.

But we're never getting to 200k comments without regular updates! The comment community has become its own weird thing that chugs along now, effectively divorced from RTT (the game) and only focused on the KS issues.

Kinda like this forum too.

Sadly Wave 1 never took off at all - I mean given the competition you offer a starter box that tasks even seasoned modellers? - so the big gamble Palladium took on buying big for Retail has come back to bite them. No matter the number of fanboy naysayers there are , the game is dead, shuffled off its mortal coil, it has effing snuffed it.

With a nuetral, logical businesshead on, I would say putting more money into producing wave 2 is simply not a smart move. A lot of what appears to be valuble funds being spent for absolutely no return. If palladium were smart they would probably be far better calling it a day and making provision for refunds which I suspect will be a much lower cost and have the benefit of drawing the line under this. There is an option to sit tight, but given that initial funding of $1.5 million,inevitably questions are going to be asked about what happenned to the balance of funds, withthe rather obvious connatation of potential embezzlement, misuse on other Palladium projects or outright fraud.

That is the main stumbling block as far as I can see. if Palladium were funding this wholly on their own then there is no issue with them calling it a day, disappointing yes, but it is their money. However, the large bulk of the funding for this came from 5000 plus KS backer and Palladium contracted with them to give them ALL the stated rewards or refund. It is as simple and as black and white as that, no other choices.

Not sure why Kevin who has been in business for over 25 years cannot see the writing on the wall and simply do the right thing

Morgan Vening wrote:

wilycoyote wrote:Just a shoret point about the latest KS update, advising of the bad link. I am a simple man but the fact PB posted about this leads me to believe that someone there is monitoring the board and so was awre of the issue.

However, that same someone - note the update was anomynous? - did notr bother to also report that there was a growing disatisfaction that there has been nothing from PB for nearly two months. Given we are on the cusp if the fifth anniversary of this project's launch, I wouyld think PB would want to pay a little more attention. Sadly, the Open House seems to the focus, to be followed bty Adepticon then Gencon?

Oh, someone at PB is aware. The Facebook page operator (again anonymous) has said as such. That Scott is still with the company, still working on projects, and one of those projects being RRT.

I don't blame them for wanting to be anonymous. And it's someone different to Scott, unless Scott has taken to talking in the third person.

So they're fully aware that the schedule has been shot to heck, but as I've said before, they probably don't see an upside to it. Take the last Update. It had 63 posts in the first 2 days. It has had 6 in the last 2. Each Update awakens people's ire if they've got nothing of import to say. So unless they've got something of significance to report, with concrete details, then they're saving themselves from being on the pokey end of pitchforks, and out of the burny end of torches. Regardless of if it's deserved or not, there's simply no benefit to riling up the mob, unless they've got something to say.

That does mean more backers get disheartened and apathetic, and that's going to be a problem if PB is interested in actually doing a relaunch. But I'm not confident it could have been successful if it'd been done two years ago, let alone this year or the next. And don't kid yourself, unless contracts are signed, and progress is breakneck behind the scenes, completing Wave 2 is approaching impossible for this year. You've probably got 3, maybe 4 months to have digital sculpts, PPP's, sprue layouts and molds milled, before 2018 goes the way of the last three years.

TLDR: Better for PB not to post, but worse for backers. Approaching another wasted year.

I am one of the 2 people that is handling Social Media for Palladium- there, anonymity dropped.

Well, sadly, we don't have to worry about this any more. The latest update has come out, and its officially dead. And it looks like I guessed right. Wave 1 took up all the money, with a bounce of extra costs. I'm sad that this has happened.

Bahahahahaha

Alpha 11 wrote:Well, sadly, we don't have to worry about this any more. The latest update has come out, and its officially dead. And it looks like I guessed right. Wave 1 took up all the money, with a bounce of extra costs. I'm sad that this has happened.

I am too. I wonder how Palladium managed to pay for all that dead wave 1 retail stock they're now offering (plus shipping and handling of course) since they were in deep financial struggles before the funding from the Crisis of Treachery and in the intervening years haven't been able to sell/save enough money to cover wave 2 shipping let alone production.

hi, so i dont get on the forums here much, but the facebook feed ive gotten on Tactics garnered my interest to make a couple of statements. first this is what i said on Kickstarter.....

"ok, so here it is. ive been a long time fan of palladium, i have over 30 books, including Rifts, Heros unlimited, Macross II and Robotech, plus a few side books. when i saw Robotech Tactics i was a little apprehensive. as i have watched the company suffer with embellishment, personnel shifts, back orders due to limited print runs, and the list goes on. Palladium has had its share of difficulties. the fact is this they should have waited on Tactics. so in my opinion several mistakes were made here.

First, Kickstarter. I AM NOT A FAN OF KICKSTARTER i have backed 3 projects on kickstarter. one was this, but i only did like 2 dollars. i just wanted to show my support and wanted to see how it would go. the other 2 were card games that had successful releases so i backed their projects. however im not slated for anything from them untill july or later. that is annoying. the problem with Kickstarter is what we are seeing now. people backed and put their money in the project, now because of failure money needs to be returned. this may funimentally damage the infastructure of palladium, as they probably cannot afford refunding such a large campaign if the money is already spent on production.

Next. using Ninja Division. even though ninja division has great model makers, and interesting game concepts. they are a small company. the do not have as large showing for products as some other companies out there. the fact is that Robotech has a Huge fanbase. and the reason the kickstarter was so successful, is that the current releases not only cater to the robotech fans but the macross ones as well. the medium is to large for a small company like ninja division to handle.

Next, and i think this will be my last point. CHINA!!!!!!!! why the hell is everything made in freaking china. i dont even run a company and i can tell that having your product made in china is seriously problamatic. i play star wars xwing from FFG. and it takes forever to get new releases to be shipped after announcements. FFG can do it because they are vastly larger than ninja division and can at least predict when their next waves will hit shelves. because of customs importing product from the west takes time, money, and honestly better time could have been spent possibly finding a company that could have maybe produced the game in the states. or contracting a company like FFG to produce the game, and have it shipped with their product so that a more controlled method would be in place. support the country you live in, make it in america.

thankfully i have my copy of tactics. and some extras im having fun with this, i just wish it could have happened better. im still going to buy books, as i have a collection to maintain and Rifts is my favorite game to date."

Now dont get me wrong, i love palladium, i love their products, i have 30-40 books to prove it. but i also know that Robotech tactics isnt the only things they have had issues getting releases out on time with. i think a company that has issues getting their books printed and released on schedule, shouldnt spread themselves thin on other projects, kickstarter makes it very dangerous for a company to fail more publicly and with greater consiquence. this may be the final nail in the coffin. i hope not. i still have alot of books to get. but this issue seriously scares me.

Total, complete, and obvious ineptitude.

Two months before the license will expire and they're mentioning it now. I mean, we're we seriously supposed to believe that they were getting quotes from Gen Con last year? Based on when the license was supposed to expire. Why would they produce the second wave? (somebody will have to explain that, to me)...

Oh and that pie chart.... Don't get me started.

As far as this thing coming to a close... I can't say this loudly enough. It will never come to a close. How many loyal customers did this company lose forever? How many potential customers did they lose?

No matter how you slice it with a pie chart... They mis-appropriated funds, clearly omitted the truth, and at times outright lied about the status of the project. If you're still loyal to a company that would take these sorts of actions that's your business. But, in my opinion you are supporting a company who has outright committed fraud against your fellow gamers. Period.

Them asking for people to pay S&H on previous produced items as an offer of a refund, totally says more than enough. Many people individually, already put 100s of dollars towards this project on items that were never made, and at some point (likely when the project was split into two waves) were never going to be made... What happened to those 100's of dollars which were specifically put towards and intended for the creation (and funding) of specific things? *poof*

Loyalty has it's limits boys and girls. Or, at least it should.

I mean they said they were planning to produce the second wave... And getting quotes to do it. So based on what they said. They had to have had the money (which they could offer as refunds) or they were totally not telling the truth.

Which is it Palladium?

You either had the money to try and produce the second wave... which should still be hundreds of thousands of dollars... Which if you had any sense you'd cut up a refund backers with...
Or you already wasted the money... Which means you outright lied about producing the second wave.

Panomas II wrote:I mean they said they were planning to produce the second wave... And getting quotes to do it. So based on what they said. They had to have had the money (which they could offer as refunds) or they were totally not telling the truth.

Which is it Palladium?

You either had the money to try and produce the second wave... which should still be hundreds of thousands of dollars... Which if you had any sense you'd cut up a refund backers with...
Or you already wasted the money... Which means you outright lied about producing the second wave.

The argument that appears to have been made, is that with Wave 1 having exhausted all funds (but no more, which appears to be convenient), they were attempting to get Wave 2 done with a capital investment from either a private source or a banking lender. And given the failures in the retail sector for Wave 1, that was always a near impossible battle.

Because assuming that Wave 1 the close to $1M they claim, and assuming even a 300% return on investment (ie, the full costs to produce Wave 2 is 1/4 of what they'll make back on retail sales), and assuming that the lender will want some kind of expected return on investment, you're looking at at least another million in an essentially unsecured loan, to cover all costs. That was never going to happen. Not with the sales assessments we can assume. PB have sufficient retail RRT after 3.5 years to do the exchange, out of the 10-11K of retail they purchased for retail sales. Meaning it would be a similar 3.5 year timeframe, to get to the same point, assuming (and there's no way I would make this assumption) sales remained constant.

And given they didn't have 3.5 years (the license renewal in Jan 2016 was apparently for only two years), noone with that amount of money/lending power, would see this as a smart investment, with even the remotest chance of even recovering costs, let alone a return worthy of the risk.

Panomas II wrote:Them asking for people to pay S&H on previous produced items as an offer of a refund, totally says more than enough.

'We're sorry we took your money and didn't give you anything... we're not going to give you your money back, but if you give us *more* money... we promise to give you something... honest....'

You know the one thing that I can still not my head around is that they spent $1 million to produce half a game, it is simply staggering.

I know it unfair top compare against other kickstarters but.... I backed rRvet Wars - ironically steered by Soda Pop minis - which was produced with twice as many beautiful sculpts, pre assembled in hard plastic for well under half that amount - okay the number of backers was far less but manufacturing costs would not have been vastly higher for a comparable run. In a similar way the excellent Fireteam Zero did a sterling job on a fraction of what palladium took in. I was so happy to back Incursion which again produced a wonderful array of miniatures - a big shout out to its creator who put himself through financial amd persoanl hell to deliver, what a contrast to here.

I get a feeling that perhaps there was too much money - strange to say I know - but a reduced budget might have resulted in tighter project control and not have allowed what appears to have been a big gamble on immediate retail sales rather than completion of the product.

I would like to see the actual costs/receipts for wave one production - under the Kickstarter rules I believe we have a right to see them - if only to confirm what morgan has at least mathematically proven over the years, that over 10k of extra core boxes were made. if these had all sold taht would have garnered palladium, what a $1 million mor ethan enough to replace the gambled monies and complete wave 2 and have a very bank balance to boot. It did not happen , but it is the backers not the company who are being asked to foot the bill