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Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:40 am
by Mlp7029
What do you think the "nine languages of the Americas ..."referenced by the language translators in the NG books are? I would guess American, Spanish, French but after that what others would NG know about?
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:32 am
by ShadowLogan
Per the Language Skill description:
-American (english)
-Techno-Can
-Spanish
-Japanese
-Chinese
-Euro (blend of Russian, German, Polish)
-Dragonese/Elven
-Gobbley
Faerie Speak
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:35 am
by Dustin Fireblade
As the game has progressed I'm kind of curious why/how Chinese or Japanese would be known, let alone common enough to be considered a major language for North America. Free Quebec citizens all speak French (and English), and you would think Iron Heart would be the same. French in my mind should replace one of them.
Heck I would think Simvan would be more common in North American than Chinese.
And I could be wrong but did't RUE change Techno-Can to a written language only?
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:47 am
by ShadowLogan
That language list is considered the top 9 of Rifts Earth, not North America my bad.
Techno-Can has always been a written language thing (in my black hardcover RMB copy at least), I don't know why its not just listed under Literacy which would be most appropriate.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:52 am
by wonderdog
Dustin Fireblade wrote:As the game has progressed I'm kind of curious why/how Chinese or Japanese would be known, let alone common enough to be considered a major language for North America. Free Quebec citizens all speak French (and English), and you would think Iron Heart would be the same. French in my mind should replace one of them.
Heck I would think Simvan would be more common in North American than Chinese.
And I could be wrong but did't RUE change Techno-Can to a written language only?
it is in my experience that this thinking is vastly underestimating the diversity of the United States. I live in the Chicago area. It has the largest population of Polish descendants outside of Poland in the world. Many of them speak no english. Theres a part of the city called Chinatown. There, you find a large, unknown quantity of Asian descendants, mostly Chinese, many of whom obtained travel permission then went into what they call "hiding". A very large portion of these people -never learn english- .
Simvan more common in North America than Chinese? I mean, where exactly in North America are you from? because your statements about these languages would seem to be in direct opposition to the reality. Im not interested in a political discussion about this so please lets not go there.
so as it pertains to languages still being spoken a few hundred years later, i mean, the population centers, i.e. a place like Chicago, has very large populations of people that speak those languages today. The majority of them were likely killed as any concentration of people would logically be during an apocalypse. but so were the rest of the demographics.
I'm inclined to believe that if a subset of the population can speak and retain only their native language over a given time period in a foreign land saturated with people speaking a different language with different cultural and social expectations, then they certainly can retain that language when surrounded by far less of the foreign stimulant. i find it more likely to encounter entire towns and communities comprised of non-english speaking non-caucasian populations.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:45 pm
by Dustin Fireblade
ShadowLogan wrote:That language list is considered the top 9 of Rifts Earth, not North America my bad.
Techno-Can has always been a written language thing (in my black hardcover RMB copy at least), I don't know why its not just listed under Literacy which would be most appropriate.
Ah ok that makes more sense.
I could be wrong but I thought Techno-Can was a spoken language when the original main book came out way back in 1990. I can think of a couple OCC's that list it as a language rather than a written language.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:00 pm
by Dustin Fireblade
wonderdog wrote:bunch of stuff
Yes I'm well aware of the diversity in the United States today, here in the real world. Have you seen a demographic break down though for this fictional world of Rifts Earth, or to go back farther, Chaos Earth?
And yes I'd say Simvan both as a race and as a language is much more widely spoken in Rifts North America than Chinese. Have you seen the maps that indicate the area the Simvan are active/present in North America? Have you seen one for Chinese speakers in North America? I mean, there's a lot of NPC's we've seen over the years, but I can only think of a handful that are Asian - and one is from an alternate Earth
I agree though with the last statement you had there though: there are entire towns of non - Caucasian populations. I'd say the majority of those are the varied Native American tribes. But most of them also have learned to speak American/English.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 pm
by Blue_Lion
Dustin Fireblade wrote:ShadowLogan wrote:That language list is considered the top 9 of Rifts Earth, not North America my bad.
Techno-Can has always been a written language thing (in my black hardcover RMB copy at least), I don't know why its not just listed under Literacy which would be most appropriate.
Ah ok that makes more sense.
I could be wrong but I thought Techno-Can was a spoken language when the original main book came out way back in 1990. I can think of a couple OCC's that list it as a language rather than a written language.
I remember it being a language not just a written form originally as well. But hey lets check the book-pg 32
Rifts rpg wrote: Techno-can (Basic but modified American/English; a universal computer/techno language used in high-tech computer communications and systems. Not used as an everyday spoken language but as a specialized tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal computer language.)
So I can see where the confusion comes from. It is likely that people equate journals and computer communications with written language.
However not spoken as a every day language is not the same as not spoken. Latin is studies by many scientist and scholars but is not used as a every day spoken language. So Techno-can is never stated as a written only language and can be selected as a spoken language by the ways the rules are written.
Other posible NA languages would be
1 French-FQ speaks french if I recall right.
2 Dwarf-There is a sizeable number of dwarfs in I think Queenstown harbor.
3 What ever wolfen speak, Kingsdale has a large wolfen population.
4 Native american languages-some tribes may use tradional language instead of English.
5 Other D-bee language if there is a sizeble amount of d-bees with their own languages they may make up a major language.
6 Demon/devil language think they have their own.
So while japanese may not be spoken in NA it could be replaced by french.
A D-bee language-dwarf, wolfen, ect or native american could replace chinise in NA.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:36 pm
by kaid
Should also note that with all the pure native americans that came back after the rifts in a lot of areas there are going to be a lot of native speakers of all the various native american languages/language groups.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:56 pm
by glitterboy2098
IIRC, it merely claims those are the MAIN languages. that is, the languages spoken most in NA. think about them as the trade languages.. if someone doesn't have them as their native language, they'll probably take one of them as a secondary so that they can easily talk to others.
so it wouldn't include things like the native american langages (which would vary depending on region) or Dbee languages (again, which would vary depending on region), or even regional population groups like, french, polish, or whatever that might still be around in a specific area.
but anywhere you go in north america, the odds are good you'll find someone able to speak english or spanish, etc. that you can talk to, even if the spot you are in is home to people who speak something else as their native language.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:48 am
by ShadowLogan
SB1o's Archie Bots are programmed with languages of: American, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Dragonese, Splugorth, Euro, (also literate in Polish, German, Russian, Dutch, Italian, French, Portuguese) (pg84 SB1o). Japanese and Chinese are programmed into a lot of Archie's bots in SB1, it would seem that it is common enough to need to be known by his 'bots for speaking purposes.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:07 am
by dreicunan
ShadowLogan wrote:SB1o's Archie Bots are programmed with languages of: American, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Dragonese, Splugorth, Euro, (also literate in Polish, German, Russian, Dutch, Italian, French, Portuguese) (pg84 SB1o). Japanese and Chinese are programmed into a lot of Archie's bots in SB1, it would seem that it is common enough to need to be known by his 'bots for speaking purposes.
More likely that he has the space for the files and the resources alreayd made, so why not include them on the bots on the offchance that it comes in handy.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:20 am
by ShadowLogan
dreicunan wrote:ShadowLogan wrote:SB1o's Archie Bots are programmed with languages of: American, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Dragonese, Splugorth, Euro, (also literate in Polish, German, Russian, Dutch, Italian, French, Portuguese) (pg84 SB1o). Japanese and Chinese are programmed into a lot of Archie's bots in SB1, it would seem that it is common enough to need to be known by his 'bots for speaking purposes.
More likely that he has the space for the files and the resources alreayd made, so why not include them on the bots on the offchance that it comes in handy.
Perhaps (some do have something like 30 additional literacy skills they can't speak), but we aren't talking about just his recon units, but his combat units kept close to home.
Model (page in SB1o): spoken languages
A-49 Combat Drone (pg80-1): Amercian, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, and Dragonese
A-51 Recon Drone (pg81-3): American, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Dragonese, Splugorth, Euro (plus literate in 30 pre-Rifts languages)
A-63 All Purpose Heavy Robot (pg83-4): A-51
A-64 All Purpose Master Robot (pg84-6): As A-63
AA-10 Bottweiler (pg86-7: As A-49
A-001/2 (p89-90): Dragon and American
A-SHE-2 (pg90-2): As A-001/2
AA-50 Insecton (pg92-4): As A-49
So it would seem that Japanese and Chinese are factors, but not Russian (and other European languages besides Euro and Spanish) for the ability to speak.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:56 am
by Prince Artemis
On the techno-can front, yeah, its basically purely written. Think of it as a mix of l33t speak, twitter shortform and programming jargon. Honestly, it would be easier to consider it more of a written dialect of english rather than a full blown language in and of itself. As in, while difficult, it wouldn't be impossible for an english reader to get the jist of what someone wrote in technocan with enough time and sounding things out. Like how it takes a bit to understand someone with a deep dialect, like cajun, newfoundlander, etc.
Similarly, Euro would also include french. Euro is based off of the idea that because almost all european languages have the same germanic root, that if you learn any three (well, the three suggested most are german, italian and french) and already have english, you can muddle your way through all other european languages (with some obvious exceptions). In other words, having the euro skill is basically akin to having learned several european languages and so you can understand them all.
This image helps to illustrate the latter part.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:47 am
by dreicunan
Prince Artemis wrote:On the techno-can front, yeah, its basically purely written. Think of it as a mix of l33t speak, twitter shortform and programming jargon. Honestly, it would be easier to consider it more of a written dialect of english rather than a full blown language in and of itself. As in, while difficult, it wouldn't be impossible for an english reader to get the jist of what someone wrote in technocan with enough time and sounding things out. Like how it takes a bit to understand someone with a deep dialect, like cajun, newfoundlander, etc.
Similarly, Euro would also include french. Euro is based off of the idea that because almost all european languages have the same germanic root, that if you learn any three (well, the three suggested most are german, italian and french) and already have english, you can muddle your way through all other european languages (with some obvious exceptions). In other words, having the euro skill is basically akin to having learned several european languages and so you can understand them all.
This image helps to illustrate the latter part.
The Romance languages like Italian and French are not Germanic.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:44 pm
by TechnoGothic
Techno-Can is both Written & Spoken. Period.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:27 am
by glitterboy2098
TechnoGothic wrote:Techno-Can is both Written & Spoken. Period.
not according to the RMB, GMG, and RUE, where it is detailed.
RMB: "Techno-can (Basic but modified American/English; a universal computer/techno language used in high-tech computer communications and systems. Not used as an everyday spoken language but as a specialized tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal computer language)"
GMG reprints the RMB wording.
RUE has it in less ambiguous wording:
"Techno-Can (Basic but modified American/English used as a universal computer/techno-language in high tech computer and communications systems. It is NOT a spoken language, but as a specialized tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal computer language)"
so it is NOT a spoken language.
the only reason it is listed under the languages area, other than PB's usual editing weirdness, is because having the language skill is required to take the literacy skill. so if you want to read techno-can you have to invest in a language skill for it, even though it is not a spoken language.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:13 am
by eliakon
glitterboy2098 wrote:TechnoGothic wrote:Techno-Can is both Written & Spoken. Period.
not according to the RMB, GMG, and RUE, where it is detailed.
RMB: "Techno-can (Basic but modified American/English; a universal computer/techno language used in high-tech computer communications and systems. Not used as an everyday spoken language but as a specialized tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal computer language)"
GMG reprints the RMB wording.
RUE has it in less ambiguous wording:
"Techno-Can (Basic but modified American/English used as a universal computer/techno-language in high tech computer and communications systems. It is NOT a spoken language, but as a specialized tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal computer language)"
so it is NOT a spoken language.
the only reason it is listed under the languages area, other than PB's usual editing weirdness, is because having the language skill is required to take the literacy skill. so if you want to read techno-can you have to invest in a language skill for it, even though it is not a spoken language.
But but but...
my poems in bineric cant
*sobs*
Seriously though. I guess that pretty much settles that. It may or may not have been spoken in RMB (hello vague) but RUE it is well and truely written only.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:30 am
by glitterboy2098
it makes sense though.. Techno-can is a programming language. has been since RMB. a vocalized version of it is going to sound like
this, and isn't something a human voice or ear can understand easily.
now, you might be able to make the argument that a person with cybernetic hearing, cybernetic eye, and cyberjack* could hear something like that and translate it to the appropriate text to display on the eye. likewise i assume that you could probably set up a portable computer to do the same.
*the cyberjack having the actual main computer portion, and the only implants that are connected to both ear and eye cybernetics by the books.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:09 am
by shadrak
I believe the original conception of Techno-Can was that it was the language of programming and engineering...
At the time Rifts came out, the world wide web was almost non-existent, and various techno communities used the internet to communicate with each other.
Most of their communications were technical in nature, and I think the original concept for TechnoCan was that it would be a full-fledged language developed and used by these City Rat/CyberPunk communities that might not otherwise be able to understand other languages and dialects...
Rifts, and the internet, has changed...
TechnoCan is probably not as valuable as it was thought to be in the first edition.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:55 pm
by Prysus
glitterboy2098 wrote:the only reason it is listed under the languages area, other than PB's usual editing weirdness, is because having the language skill is required to take the literacy skill. so if you want to read techno-can you have to invest in a language skill for it, even though it is not a spoken language.
Greetings and Salutations. I see no evidence of Language being required before you can take Literacy. For one, there's no "Requirement" listed that I can see (in RUE, RGMG, PF2, HU2 ... though HU2 does have Literacy in general an automatic skill as part of Language). A common house rule I've seen, but don't believe I've ever actually seen it within a book. Also, RUE has this quote (page 305, within the Literacy skill) ...
Note that just because a character can "read" a foreign language does NOT mean he can speak it or understand others speaking it (has only the most basic understanding of the spoken language, catching one or two words out of ten.
So you can read a language AND not be able to speak/understand it, per RUE.
glitterboy2098 wrote:it makes sense though.. Techno-can is a programming language. has been since RMB. a vocalized version of it is going to sound like
this, and isn't something a human voice or ear can understand easily.
That's one possibility, but I'd have imagined it a bit more like a slang with technical/programming jargon. Both RGMG and RUE describe it as "Basic but modified American English ..." So we actually are told a base language, and I don't think most humanoids (humans especially) would try to communicate American English (modified or otherwise) in the way you suggested. Though, hey, I agree RUE states it's not a spoken language, so hard to say and everything else is just guesswork.
However, in the hypothetical it was spoken, I'd have imagined it closer to Spanglish in execution. But, instead of Spanish and English, it's computer jargon and English. Instead of "no" you might say "zero," "yes" would be "one," and "copy" might end up something like "control c." So while someone may understand the words, they wouldn't necessarily understand what the words
meant. Now, I'm not a computer programmer, so my examples may not be the best (or 100% accurate), but I believe should still convey the concept. Kind of like how sometimes I'd ask my wife how to do something. She didn't squeal and shriek, she spoke in words and might reference a type of code I could use ... to which I'd stare at her blankly because I had no clue what she was referencing. Anyways, just thought I'd share. Have a nice day to one and all. Farewell and safe journeys.
Re: Nine languages of the Americas from the NG books?
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:14 am
by dreicunan
Prysus wrote:glitterboy2098 wrote:the only reason it is listed under the languages area, other than PB's usual editing weirdness, is because having the language skill is required to take the literacy skill. so if you want to read techno-can you have to invest in a language skill for it, even though it is not a spoken language.
Greetings and Salutations. I see no evidence of Language being required before you can take Literacy. For one, there's no "Requirement" listed that I can see (in RUE, RGMG, PF2, HU2 ... though HU2 does have Literacy in general an automatic skill as part of Language). A common house rule I've seen, but don't believe I've ever actually seen it within a book. Also, RUE has this quote (page 305, within the Literacy skill) ...
Note that just because a character can "read" a foreign language does NOT mean he can speak it or understand others speaking it (has only the most basic understanding of the spoken language, catching one or two words out of ten.
So you can read a language AND not be able to speak/understand it, per RUE.
glitterboy2098 wrote:it makes sense though.. Techno-can is a programming language. has been since RMB. a vocalized version of it is going to sound like
this, and isn't something a human voice or ear can understand easily.
That's one possibility, but I'd have imagined it a bit more like a slang with technical/programming jargon. Both RGMG and RUE describe it as "Basic but modified American English ..." So we actually are told a base language, and I don't think most humanoids (humans especially) would try to communicate American English (modified or otherwise) in the way you suggested. Though, hey, I agree RUE states it's not a spoken language, so hard to say and everything else is just guesswork.
However, in the hypothetical it was spoken, I'd have imagined it closer to Spanglish in execution. But, instead of Spanish and English, it's computer jargon and English. Instead of "no" you might say "zero," "yes" would be "one," and "copy" might end up something like "control c." So while someone may understand the words, they wouldn't necessarily understand what the words
meant. Now, I'm not a computer programmer, so my examples may not be the best (or 100% accurate), but I believe should still convey the concept. Kind of like how sometimes I'd ask my wife how to do something. She didn't squeal and shriek, she spoke in words and might reference a type of code I could use ... to which I'd stare at her blankly because I had no clue what she was referencing. Anyways, just thought I'd share. Have a nice day to one and all. Farewell and safe journeys.
Your view of TechnoCan reflects mine, a type of techno cant along the lines of a thieves' cant. The fact that it is not only a programming language but also a language of technical journals. It clearly was capable of being a spoken language in RMB, and we always saw it as being similar to Latin in our own day, with lots more people capable of reading it than using it as an everyday spoken language, but still able to be used as such if two or more people wished to do so.
