Cold-Blooded transformation
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:29 pm
If a juicer undergoes the process would he keep the higher sdc/hp? I ask because the higher sdc/hp comes from the drugs and if the drugs are no longer there...
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Curbludgeon wrote:I could see an argument for halving a Cold Blooded Mega Juicer's mdc, but think that in a high powered game societal stigma is probably sufficient.
Incriptus wrote:To paraphrase Roger Rabbit: "No, not at any time. Only when it was Fun(ny)"
If you wanted your current juicer to join a group with a Cosmo Knight, Lizard Mage, Godling, Super-Powered Vagabond and Hundred Handed ... it may very well work.
If you wanted to create a Cold-Blooded-Juicer to join a group with a Crazy, Rogue Scholar, City Rat and Dogboy ... I don't think it would work out at all.
Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?
dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?
Blue_Lion wrote:dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?
If the ritual is slowly changing the body like lowering the body temp it would. If the ritual instantly changes it then it would not fight the ritual but would attempt to force the body back to its original parameters which could result in severe case of body immune system attacking the body.
dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?
If the ritual is slowly changing the body like lowering the body temp it would. If the ritual instantly changes it then it would not fight the ritual but would attempt to force the body back to its original parameters which could result in severe case of body immune system attacking the body.
Yeah, I really don't buy using transformation magic on a juicer being a way to cause an auto-immune response!
I completely disagree with your view of how the biocomp would work here. It is a magic potion that lowers the body temperature. Juicers get no special saves against magic. They don't get to wake up early if they eat food enchanted by the sleep spell. Magic trumps the biocomp.
dreicunan wrote:Titan Juicer... are a go.
Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
kaid wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
That is pretty much my take on it. And even if some of the juice was still in your system the effects of being a juicer are due to constant fine tuned manipulations by the biocomp. The transformation would negate that manipulation so the thing that keeps juicers super powerful is gone. This is shown by the detox rules once you remove the biocomp they degrade back to baseline pretty fast.
dreicunan wrote:kaid wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
That is pretty much my take on it. And even if some of the juice was still in your system the effects of being a juicer are due to constant fine tuned manipulations by the biocomp. The transformation would negate that manipulation so the thing that keeps juicers super powerful is gone. This is shown by the detox rules once you remove the biocomp they degrade back to baseline pretty fast.
Yet not instantly. We also see this with Juicer combat bonuses, which are halved in the first round of unexpected combat. Not completely eliminated, just halved. Also, one can consider that if an athlete is using steroids and then stops, they don't drop 30 lbs the next day. So even if it were necessary to get rid of the biocomp - and it isn't because the biocomp does not provide any immunity or resistance to the effect of magic - it beggars belief to suggest that a juicer would have gone through detox and sufferred those penalties by the time the part of the cold blood ritual where one is still alive had concluded so long as the people doing the ritual were ready.
eliakon wrote:dreicunan wrote:kaid wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.
(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)
That is pretty much my take on it. And even if some of the juice was still in your system the effects of being a juicer are due to constant fine tuned manipulations by the biocomp. The transformation would negate that manipulation so the thing that keeps juicers super powerful is gone. This is shown by the detox rules once you remove the biocomp they degrade back to baseline pretty fast.
Yet not instantly. We also see this with Juicer combat bonuses, which are halved in the first round of unexpected combat. Not completely eliminated, just halved. Also, one can consider that if an athlete is using steroids and then stops, they don't drop 30 lbs the next day. So even if it were necessary to get rid of the biocomp - and it isn't because the biocomp does not provide any immunity or resistance to the effect of magic - it beggars belief to suggest that a juicer would have gone through detox and sufferred those penalties by the time the part of the cold blood ritual where one is still alive had concluded so long as the people doing the ritual were ready.
And how long does the ritual take?
That's not mentioned. Just that they drink a potion that lowers their temperature.
Then they are slowly drained of blood
Then they get new stuff added at an undescribed rate
Then more rituals
Then burried for two days
So the question (which litterally has no canon answer hense the endless circular argument) becomes "is the ritual duration enough time for the body to stop being juiced or not"
As for how long it takes to detox we know that they get the bonuses basically instantaniously. As soon as they have recovered from surgery they have half their bonuses already.
Thus it is pretty clear (as if it wasn't already) that the drugs and nanites used are utterly cinimeatic and not realistic. And thus we can also make the claim that they suffer the fairly normal cinematic trope of "when what ever was providing a boost is removed you instantly go back to basic"
One way to look at this is that the drugs are what is providing the bonus. Not their flesh, but the drugs
Thus the cold blood, who does not have the drugs, is not boosted anymore than a cold one would keep extra MDC granted by cyber armor.
Again, this is just my way of providing one possible take.
However, at the end of the day the only One True Answer <tm> is "ask your GM what they prefer to have used in their game" because that is the only canon answer avaliable. No amount of back and forth "do not" "do so" "do not" is going to change things here anymore than it ever changed things on the playground. And that is 100% what this debate is at its core becuase neither side has any canon to stand on and is simply what they feel the game should be doing based on how they personally interpret an array of (potentially conflicting) different passages.
HarleeKnight wrote:If a juicer undergoes the process ...
TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:HarleeKnight wrote:If a juicer undergoes the process ...
It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.
I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.
dreicunan wrote:TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:HarleeKnight wrote:If a juicer undergoes the process ...
It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.
I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.
You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.
dreicunan wrote:Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.
The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.
dreicunan wrote:TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:HarleeKnight wrote:If a juicer undergoes the process ...
It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.
I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.
You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.
Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.
The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.
eliakon wrote:This is a perennial argument
One side (that I support) is that you go into Detox as soon as you start... ergo you go Juicer -> apply Detox -> Apply Cold Blood
Another side is of the opinion that you should just keep them and that Cold Blood with 1000+ MDC are a good idea
A third side is of the opinion that the Cold Blood process would simply not work (the drugs in the system would mess up the delicate alchemical balances)
13eowulf wrote:It could also be argued that the act of trying to avoid detox penalties, having your cake and eating it too, is what is munchkin. Not the end result.
Curbludgeon wrote:There are two factors which determine the potential disparity between FC Borgs and Juicer/Cold-Blooded: the CB's combat stats are rolled, and wealth. Insofar as prices are inconsistent, if one were to have two characters with identical starting budgets they'll come out closer than is argued above.
Assumptions:
1. The example below uses a human standard Juicer. The weakest possible Juicer/CB is a Coyle Hyperion with minimum rolls, which is far weaker than a FC Borg. The Titan Juicer is excluded for now. If one needs a rationale, consider that the metal bonded to the character's skeleton is arguably expelled once gaining regeneration.
3. The CB has 2 physical skills of choice, and can recall up to 4 from the Juicer OCC. Physical skills chosen below are Acrobatics, Boxing, and Fencing, which are also taken by the Borg.
4. All rolls are average; i.e. 1d6=3.5. Totals are rounded up at the end. Rolls which are multiplied by 10 are not rounded, even though it's an impossible result. Add 55 mdc to the CB total if you'll otherwise have a fit.
5. All bonuses of Juicer and Cold-Blooded conversion stack. I'm not considering things like Roll with Punch or Initiative at the moment.
Here's how each stat would be tabulated as a Juicer, with the Cold Blooded bonus in parentheses. Totals will follow
ps 5d6(min22)+3(+2d4+2)
pp 3d6+2d4+1(+1d4+1)
pe 5d6+1(+2)
spd 3d6+2d4x10(+2d6+6)
hp 1d4x10+1d6+1+PE
sdc 1d4x100+3d6+12
mdc 1d4x100+4d6+13+PE(+5d6+10)
Bonus attacks: +2(+1)
J/CB: PS 32 PP 20 PE 21 Spd 74 Mdc: 366 +3 attacks
Borg: PS 24arms/18legs PP 18 PE n/a Spd 132 mdc 410 (180+230)
The starting Borg is clearly outclassed by the average fully stacking Juicer/CB, primarily due to being 3 attacks down. This is where the Borg starts spending. 1,094,000 is enough to bump up to heavy armor, add a pair of tentacles and a pair of extra arms, max mdc in all locations, and max their stats. I'm still skimming around for costs of RUE basic style full conversion, instead of model specific costs, but would argue that Juicer+Cold Blooded conversion is roughly equivalent in cost to borg conversion+modifications after exchanging the borg's starting hovercycle. Any references to that end would be appreciated. The two characters are functionally equivalent in terms of weapons, and let's say the Juicer/CB has medium armor of 80 mdc.
J/CB: PS 32 PP 20 PE 21 Spd 74 mdc:446 +3 attacks
Borg: PS 36/24 PP 26/24 PE n/a Spd 176(141) mdc 640 +2 attacks
The Cold Blooded could have a maximum mdc just over 500 before armor. The Cold Blooded could also roll better than average and take more physical skills, but the borg will almost always be faster and have more mdc. The JCB could pilot power armor (using some of the skills remembered as a juicer), but the value of such items can be spent by the borg on a vehicle of their own, or on a knock off variant of Hellbuster armor. The borg does lose out on repair costs, but the insanities and need for occasional burial of the CB counterbalance that somewhat.
If one starts adding things like auto dodge things change a bit, but on the face of things the combination really doesn't seem as bad as some are making it out to be. The combination is, admittedly, only for a high powered game, and if one were going to have it be a 6 week long, 4 million credit package available at Merctown then things should be trimmed.
eliakon wrote:dreicunan wrote:TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:HarleeKnight wrote:If a juicer undergoes the process ...
It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.
I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.
You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.
Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.
The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.
And your making an apples to oranges comparison
The Cold Blood vs Borg in Heavy armor is disingenuous as it is a CB with no gear vs a Borg with Heavy Armor. The weakest possible juicer/CB has more MDC than your borg does
It also has more PS, Regenerates every round (four times FASTER than the dragon mind you), and can come back from anything but the total destruction of the head.
And if it was an even moderately potent Juicer it is likely to have better stats than a Borg can ever get. Ever.
And this is before the Cold Blood gets to put on any of its gear.
So no, the claim that "A combat borg is better than this so obviously it is not munchkin" is pretty laughably false.
Curbludgeon wrote:Excluding factors would be necessarily setting-based, since the requirements are left so open. Out of the ~2.4 million Amaki on Earth, how many have made it to the American Midwest and subsequently provided tissue/fluid samples antecedent to initial testing? If there's a known Juicer cocktail unique to Elves, most anything can be handwaved, and magic stuff is narratively easier than tech in that respect. There's never going to be a published NPC, so whether it's useful in a given group is an individual matter.
What are some other high sdc beings?
Axelmania wrote:Anyone think it's possible to Cold-Blooded an Amaki?
Axelmania wrote:Anyone think it's possible to Cold-Blooded an Amaki?
dreicunan wrote:eliakon wrote:dreicunan wrote:TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:HarleeKnight wrote:If a juicer undergoes the process ...
It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.
I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.
You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.
Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.
The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.
And your making an apples to oranges comparison
The Cold Blood vs Borg in Heavy armor is disingenuous as it is a CB with no gear vs a Borg with Heavy Armor. The weakest possible juicer/CB has more MDC than your borg does
It also has more PS, Regenerates every round (four times FASTER than the dragon mind you), and can come back from anything but the total destruction of the head.
And if it was an even moderately potent Juicer it is likely to have better stats than a Borg can ever get. Ever.
And this is before the Cold Blood gets to put on any of its gear.
So no, the claim that "A combat borg is better than this so obviously it is not munchkin" is pretty laughably false.
What is lauguable is that you read "roughly comparable ... (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats)" and came up with that strawman to end your post. I never made the claim that a combat cyborg was better. I did say that a dragon hatchling was likely to out-class a Cold Blooded, because the hatchling is likely to have access to a whole bunch of tricks (metamorphosis, magic, psi) that a cold blooded likely won't.
So to further clarify my point, if becoming a Cold Blooded to avoid detox penalties is a munchkin thing to do (and it isn't), then so is becoming a combat cyborg (and it also isn't). They are both legitimate, in-universe ways that a Juicer who wants to live longer than he normally would without ending up a feeble shadow od his former self can do so.
Blue_Lion wrote:The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)
dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)
Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.
Curbludgeon wrote:I don't believe claims based on omniscience are necessary, or even useful. Some combinations are less likely than others within the setting, of course, and people are going to dive into a dumpster even when it's on fire, but some combinations are straightforward. Regardless of one's thoughts on the propriety of juicer+cold blooded, both are offered in MercTown. are likely available in Fort Reid, and are less than two hours' flight apart from multiple midwestern cities. If in a given game it's not seen as a big deal, having a series of procedures would be less a matter of ferreting out a secret than one of walking down the block. To have strongly held opinions on balance within a game whose creator has derided the entire concept is just silly.
Blue_Lion wrote:dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)
Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.
Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.
Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.
The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.
So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)
So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)
dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)
Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.
Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.
Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.
The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.
So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)
So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)
Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).
We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.
dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)
Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.
Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.
Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.
The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.
So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)
So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)
Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).
We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.
dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)
Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.
Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.
Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.
The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.
So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)
So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)
Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).
We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.
eliakon wrote:dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:dreicunan wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)
Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.
Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.
Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.
The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.
So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)
So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)
Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).
We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.
No.
Just no
Either you keep your OCC abilities and bonuses or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose from the list on what abilities you lose and which ones you keep. Its an all or nothing sort of thing.
Thus either they lose their OCC abilities and Bonuses or they keep them.
The stats, SDC, HP and the rest are OCC bonuses.
So either they lose them like all the other OCC bonuses... or they are, indeed, being allowed to selectively keep OCC bonuses beyond those that are listed as being preserved.
It really is that simple people
Either you can keep some of your Juicer OCC abilities and Bonuses even after you stop being a Juicer and can transfer those abilities and bonuses to being a cold-blooded. Or you can't. I am of the opinion that since you can not have 2 OCCs at the same time. That if you give up a class and abandon it completely then you give up all the bonuses from it. You can't just say "Well I want to play this RCC here, but I want to tack on this set of OCC abilities from some other OCC because I want moar powah" that's just not how it works.
And no the argument that "the muscle mass is there" holds no water. The Cold-Blooded one gets their strength and durability from their supernatural constitution and not muscle mass. So it doesnt matter how much mass there is or is not.
dreicunan wrote:eliakon wrote:No.
Just no
Either you keep your OCC abilities and bonuses or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose from the list on what abilities you lose and which ones you keep. Its an all or nothing sort of thing.
Thus either they lose their OCC abilities and Bonuses or they keep them.
The stats, SDC, HP and the rest are OCC bonuses.
So either they lose them like all the other OCC bonuses... or they are, indeed, being allowed to selectively keep OCC bonuses beyond those that are listed as being preserved.
It really is that simple people
Either you can keep some of your Juicer OCC abilities and Bonuses even after you stop being a Juicer and can transfer those abilities and bonuses to being a cold-blooded. Or you can't. I am of the opinion that since you can not have 2 OCCs at the same time. That if you give up a class and abandon it completely then you give up all the bonuses from it. You can't just say "Well I want to play this RCC here, but I want to tack on this set of OCC abilities from some other OCC because I want moar powah" that's just not how it works.
And no the argument that "the muscle mass is there" holds no water. The Cold-Blooded one gets their strength and durability from their supernatural constitution and not muscle mass. So it doesnt matter how much mass there is or is not.
Have you bothered to read the Cold-Blooded entry and how stats are determined for an existing character? It's PS is determined by taking the PS score of the character before the transformation and then adding a bonus. It's MDC is determined by taking the character's HP and SDC, then adding a bonus. So a 98 lb weakling is going to have different stats after conversion than the Mr Universe candidate. Ergo, my "the muscle mass is there" argument is just a restating of what the canon text obviously is showing us. The existing flesh of the character at the time of the ritual most definitely matters in the determination of the result.
dreicunan wrote:As to your OCC switch based argument, the only rules Palladium has given us for switching OCCs don't require you to lower your stats if your previous OCC gave you a boost. Go look at the rules in High Seas again if you need a refresher. There is no general rule eliminating bonuses from a previous OCC.