HIT 'IM WITH YOUR HEAD GUNS, KID!!

[Axelmania]

Page 55 of World Book 5 (Triax and the NGR) says regarding the Jager (Triax X-535 Hunter) that it "has been in service for the last nine years". Page 22 says it's late 103 PA, so that would mean the Jager was introduced around 94 PA. Page 15 says that gargoyled invaded in 3 PA, so the NGR had been fighting gargoyles for 91 years by the time the Jager was introduced.

Kevin Long's comic "First Timer" on page 25 shows a lieutenant piloting a Jager named "Ethel" while giving advice to a "kid" also piloting a Jager. The bottom of page 29 has the quote I have titled this thread after. This is followed by the kid following the device (you see 2 muzzle flashes coming from the head, along with BUDDA BUDDA) and below that you see 10impact marks on the head and shoulders of the enemy power armor along with (VIP! VIP! VIP! VIP! VIP!) which I think is meant to indicate the rounds bouncing off.

The enemies would either be Gurgoyle G-10 Power Armor (page 205) or Gurgoyle G-20 Avenger Combat Robot (page 206) either way we're talking MDC head/shoulders.

I'm trying to figure out why there is such epic fail in the LT's advice. Is this supposed to be a "first encounter" with the power armor, so NGR troops aren't supposed to know that it's MDC armor? Since they say "identify yourself" I'm thinking this could be the case that they don't know this is gear designed for Gurgoyles...

This follows the ZZKKT of an axe slicing off the Jager's forearm in a single swing though, so they must understand it is an MD weapon. Which I guess means that beings wielding MD melee weapons while piloting SDC power armor was common from 3PA-103PA?

They should know that the head guns (or any SDC guns) would not be able to harm gargoyles, but that wouldn't matter if they didn't know Gargoyles were inside the armor, and assumed it might be an SDC being piloting a makeshift SDC suit.

Page 57 says headguns can do 3d6 or 6d6. Why would you instruct someone to use them against a melee combatant though? Page 60 says Jagers can do 1d6x10 on a restrained punch, so that would seem like a better approach for trying to damage an armored foe. If it was SDC it would likely have a decent amount of it, after all.

I guess because you can parry punches but not bursts? Still seems like a waste of ammo to me though. I wouldn't want to play around trying to capture someone alive after they'd already 1-hit dismembered my cutting edge PA. Jager forearms have 70 MDC and giant axe blades only do 4D6 MD, max 24 doubles to max 48 on a natural 20, and triples to 72 if you are a 13th level Hand to Hand Expert and hit from behind... to me it looks like "kid" got attacked from the front, but maybe he had turned to run away and then turned back toward the opponent in reaction to the arm being severed? A lucky roll (1 in 6^4) which might be interpreted as a powerful weapon.

I guess if it was power-armor you might say the Gurgoyle can add his SNPS punch damage to the axe damage like it instructs them to do for the amounts listed for hand to hand combat.

Page 210 (spikes) and 211 (whip) and 212 (spear, maces) and 213 (mace) mention adding SNPS damage, but I can't see it mentioned on 214 for the Axe/Sword/Lance so I'm not sure if it would apply to power armor's axe or just unarmed attacks.

[taalismn]

It's a hazing prank pulled on the newbies. If the guy instantly follows orders, he's a rote-smuck, and can be ordered to do all sorts of stupid things, like 'stay between me and the enemy artillery'. If he doesn't, and protests about using an ineffectual weapon, he can be canned for insubordination. If he doesn't, and instead uses a different and actually EFFECTIVE attack, the veteran's got a new partner.

[kaid]

It's a hazing prank pulled on the newbies. If the guy instantly follows orders, he's a rote-smuck, and can be ordered to do all sorts of stupid things, like 'stay between me and the enemy artillery'. If he doesn't, and protests about using an ineffectual weapon, he can be canned for insubordination. If he doesn't, and instead uses a different and actually EFFECTIVE attack, the veteran's got a new partner.

Yup I took it as rapid battle field analysis of team mate. If the kid is to green not to use his main gun then he is probably going to get eaten and its best not to get that attached to him.

[ShadowLogan]

Page 57 says headguns can do 3d6 or 6d6. Why would you instruct someone to use them against a melee combatant though? Page 60 says Jagers can do 1d6x10 on a restrained punch, so that would seem like a better approach for trying to damage an armored foe. If it was SDC it would likely have a decent amount of it, after all.

Short Answer: Distraction.

Distraction in this instance can come from several directions:
-muzzle flash (yes polarized can block it out, but what are the other visible lighting conditions actually like. If its dark enough the polarized visor might become a blind fold)
-"flinch" reaction. While an SDC attack does no damage to a MDC structure, the occupant might still "flinch" from the sound (or even just at the thought of being attacked)
-while SDC won't damage MDC, it could leave "scoff marks" on the visor (I won't say it would leave a crack as that would imply damage)
-momentum transfer (sure the bullets don't do damage, but I don't think by the rules they would prevent transfer of momentum)
-While not a distraction, does anything prevent those SDC guns from being loaded with specialized rounds that might be more of a danger (like Ramjet, Explosive, DU/U)?

Something else to consider might also come down to dominant handness in humans, the Jager was missing what is like the pilot's dominant hand, so throwing an non-dominant hand punch might not be as effective.

Yup I took it as rapid battle field analysis of team mate. If the kid is to green not to use his main gun then he is probably going to get eaten and its best not to get that attached to him.

How is he supposed to use his main gun, when the hand holding it has just been cut off?

[Warshield73]

I always thought it was a mistake made by the author or comic artist. Maybe the guns were originally supposed to be MDC but after the comic was made.

Yup I took it as rapid battle field analysis of team mate. If the kid is to green not to use his main gun then he is probably going to get eaten and its best not to get that attached to him.

How is he supposed to use his main gun, when the hand holding it has just been cut off?

This was my question too. Really when it came down to it all he had was the 3 mini-missiles in the left arm, which was completely useless at that range, or the head guns.

[Hotrod]

I figured it was just an in-universe way of demonstrating the MDC vs SDC concept. But yeah, terrible advice, and the rookie was saved only by the LT inexplicably one-shot-killing both bogies with chest shots (through armor and gargoyle!).

In summary, the LT should be demoted, and his gun should be confiscated and reverse-engineered.

[Mlp7029]

I agree with ShadowLogan. Distract him then clear the line of fire for the Lt. Let's face it the kid's first time in combat and he froze. If he lives through it he will have learned a valuable lesson.

[Blue_Lion]

I figured it was just an in-universe way of demonstrating the MDC vs SDC concept. But yeah, terrible advice, and the rookie was saved only by the LT inexplicably one-shot-killing both bogies with chest shots (through armor and gargoyle!).

In summary, the LT should be demoted, and his gun should be confiscated and reverse-engineered.

You do know that LT is the bottom of the officer rank and is basically an over paid private, they are expected to do dumb stuff. So they would not demote him for being dumb as they have little command experience(it is why they get paired with a senior NCO).


I have seen an LT order people to take a short cut heading east to get to a base that was west(even though every one told him it was the wrong way), and after 3 hours(the trip back to base would have only taking 15 min) of driving east a vehicle got stuck.

[Mlp7029]

I figured it was just an in-universe way of demonstrating the MDC vs SDC concept. But yeah, terrible advice, and the rookie was saved only by the LT inexplicably one-shot-killing both bogies with chest shots (through armor and gargoyle!).

In summary, the LT should be demoted, and his gun should be confiscated and reverse-engineered.

You do know that LT is the bottom of the officer rank and is basically an over paid private, they are expected to do dumb stuff. So they would not demote him for being dumb as they have little command experience(it is why they get paired with a senior NCO).


I have seen an LT order people to take a short cut heading east to get to a base that was west(even though every one told him it was the wrong way), and after 3 hours(the trip back to base would have only taking 15 min) of driving east a vehicle got stuck.

I agree with what you say regarding the current US military. that does not appear to be the case in this cartoon. The Lt looks older and highly experienced. Maintenance upgraded his main gun was upgraded at his request and he has a personal mech which maintenance has stenciled with the name he has given it. Not things I would do for a green Lt as a crew chief.

[Blue_Lion]

I figured it was just an in-universe way of demonstrating the MDC vs SDC concept. But yeah, terrible advice, and the rookie was saved only by the LT inexplicably one-shot-killing both bogies with chest shots (through armor and gargoyle!).

In summary, the LT should be demoted, and his gun should be confiscated and reverse-engineered.

You do know that LT is the bottom of the officer rank and is basically an over paid private, they are expected to do dumb stuff. So they would not demote him for being dumb as they have little command experience(it is why they get paired with a senior NCO).


I have seen an LT order people to take a short cut heading east to get to a base that was west(even though every one told him it was the wrong way), and after 3 hours(the trip back to base would have only taking 15 min) of driving east a vehicle got stuck.

I agree with what you say regarding the current US military. that does not appear to be the case in this cartoon. The Lt looks older and highly experienced. Maintenance upgraded his main gun was upgraded at his request and he has a personal mech which maintenance has stenciled with the name he has given it. Not things I would do for a green Lt as a crew chief.

We have random people stencil names on the m ain guns of tanks, so that does not prove anything heck when I joined we used lettering kits to put names on all our Humvees, the driver was the one who named it. And an officer could order an upgrade as long as upgrades are allowed, making it a lawful order and if a crew chief refused to do could be punished for disobeying a lawful order. The officer could have joined later in life thus look older. So nothing you said proves that he should be expected to not act like a LT. Commestioned officers do not typically get demoted, the do get their carreirs ended thogh.

[Zer0 Kay]

I figured it was just an in-universe way of demonstrating the MDC vs SDC concept. But yeah, terrible advice, and the rookie was saved only by the LT inexplicably one-shot-killing both bogies with chest shots (through armor and gargoyle!).

In summary, the LT should be demoted, and his gun should be confiscated and reverse-engineered.

You do know that LT is the bottom of the officer rank and is basically an over paid private, they are expected to do dumb stuff. So they would not demote him for being dumb as they have little command experience(it is why they get paired with a senior NCO).


I have seen an LT order people to take a short cut heading east to get to a base that was west(even though every one told him it was the wrong way), and after 3 hours(the trip back to base would have only taking 15 min) of driving east a vehicle got stuck.

Not in the Navy... Ensign is the coffee retriever.

So MAYBE they're Navy units running an op on land

[Curbludgeon]

I always thought it was a mistake made by the author or comic artist. Maybe the guns were originally supposed to be MDC but after the comic was made.

This is the parsimonious answer, and anything else really seems like a needless jumping through of hoops. One can make arguments that the use of the headguns was a distraction, or encouraging the green soldier to use everything at their disposal, or it being some sort of hazing ritual, but all of those are far less likely than it being a miscommunication to Long, or reflecting stats which changed subsequent to his finishing the comic. I haven't poured over the Triax books in a while, but it seems like a missed opportunity to have not had more non-lethal options available for the head guns of the supremely modular Jaeger. A smoke grenade/tear gas/flare gun barrel seems like it would be popular.

Similarly, from the same book, and certain to cause offense among some by its very mention, are the depictions of "gypsies". One can make an argument that Rifts Germany is in fact a nuanced examination of post-post-apocalyptic racism, wherein old slurs are reappropriated and forced to apply to groups (and species) to which they had never previously been conceived of as being applicable, and used as a ready excuse for jingoism in the face of invasion. Far more likely, however, is that the writers just don't realize, or perhaps care, that the germ "gypsy" is a pejorative, and wanted to fill up space with some OCCs of rogues that wear scarves. Solid evidence for the latter opinion can be found in Rifter 80, where K.S. and J.R. both thought using racial slurs in 2018 was appropriate.

[glitterboy2098]

Similarly, from the same book, and certain to cause offense among some by its very mention, are the depictions of "gypsies". One can make an argument that Rifts Germany is in fact a nuanced examination of post-post-apocalyptic racism, wherein old slurs are reappropriated and forced to apply to groups (and species) to which they had never previously been conceived of as being applicable, and used as a ready excuse for jingoism in the face of invasion. Far more likely, however, is that the writers just don't realize, or perhaps care, that the germ "gypsy" is a pejorative, and wanted to fill up space with some OCCs of rogues that wear scarves. Solid evidence for the latter opinion can be found in Rifter 80, where K.S. and J.R. both thought using racial slurs in 2018 was appropriate.

to be fair, something like 90% of the world doesn't realize it is pejorative, having had little chance to learn. doesn't excuse it, but does explain it. also greatly illustrates how little actual research those earlier writers did when writing. since while it was before the internet became a major thing and long before wiki's, even checking a library and encyclopedias would have revealed that the groups in question prefer to be called Romani or Roma, and that much of the stereotypical image is false.

[Warshield73]

Similarly, from the same book, and certain to cause offense among some by its very mention, are the depictions of "gypsies". One can make an argument that Rifts Germany is in fact a nuanced examination of post-post-apocalyptic racism, wherein old slurs are reappropriated and forced to apply to groups (and species) to which they had never previously been conceived of as being applicable, and used as a ready excuse for jingoism in the face of invasion. Far more likely, however, is that the writers just don't realize, or perhaps care, that the germ "gypsy" is a pejorative, and wanted to fill up space with some OCCs of rogues that wear scarves. Solid evidence for the latter opinion can be found in Rifter 80, where K.S. and J.R. both thought using racial slurs in 2018 was appropriate.

to be fair, something like 90% of the world doesn't realize it is pejorative, having had little chance to learn. doesn't excuse it, but does explain it. also greatly illustrates how little actual research those earlier writers did when writing. since while it was before the internet became a major thing and long before wiki's, even checking a library and encyclopedias would have revealed that the groups in question prefer to be called Romani or Roma, and that much of the stereotypical image is false.

To be even more fair plenty of far more mainstream and far more recent pop culture use the term Gypsy. Buffy the Vampire Slayer / Angel used it constantly, Supernatural, Shut Eye on Hulu has people playing Gypsies using the term. I have meterial for use in my classroom from the Holocaust museum and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, less then 10 years old, that use the term Gypsy. It may not make it right but it certainly provides some background.

[eliakon]

I always thought it was a mistake made by the author or comic artist. Maybe the guns were originally supposed to be MDC but after the comic was made.

This is the parsimonious answer, and anything else really seems like a needless jumping through of hoops. One can make arguments that the use of the headguns was a distraction, or encouraging the green soldier to use everything at their disposal, or it being some sort of hazing ritual, but all of those are far less likely than it being a miscommunication to Long, or reflecting stats which changed subsequent to his finishing the comic. I haven't poured over the Triax books in a while, but it seems like a missed opportunity to have not had more non-lethal options available for the head guns of the supremely modular Jaeger. A smoke grenade/tear gas/flare gun barrel seems like it would be popular.

And of course there is the potential meta answer of the possibility of specialty amunition up to and including things like uranium and/or charmed rounds.

[Zer0 Kay]

Similarly, from the same book, and certain to cause offense among some by its very mention, are the depictions of "gypsies". One can make an argument that Rifts Germany is in fact a nuanced examination of post-post-apocalyptic racism, wherein old slurs are reappropriated and forced to apply to groups (and species) to which they had never previously been conceived of as being applicable, and used as a ready excuse for jingoism in the face of invasion. Far more likely, however, is that the writers just don't realize, or perhaps care, that the germ "gypsy" is a pejorative, and wanted to fill up space with some OCCs of rogues that wear scarves. Solid evidence for the latter opinion can be found in Rifter 80, where K.S. and J.R. both thought using racial slurs in 2018 was appropriate.

to be fair, something like 90% of the world doesn't realize it is pejorative, having had little chance to learn. doesn't excuse it, but does explain it. also greatly illustrates how little actual research those earlier writers did when writing. since while it was before the internet became a major thing and long before wiki's, even checking a library and encyclopedias would have revealed that the groups in question prefer to be called Romani or Roma, and that much of the stereotypical image is false.

To be even more fair plenty of far more mainstream and far more recent pop culture use the term Gypsy. Buffy the Vampire Slayer / Angel used it constantly, Supernatural, Shut Eye on Hulu has people playing Gypsies using the term. I have meterial for use in my classroom from the Holocaust museum and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, less then 10 years old, that use the term Gypsy. It may not make it right but it certainly provides some background.

If they are Romani then they should probably be called Romani... if they are vagabonds or nomadic people of any culture then they should more correctly be called Nomads or Vagabonds.

Some Romani organizations refer to themselves as Gypsies but that may be like Italian organizations referring to themselves as Cosa Nostra or Mafia.

[Curbludgeon]

The term nomad pretty specifically refers to itinerant peoples that maintain livestock, while vagabond connotes petty crime and assorted other negative stereotypes. One could put forth a decent argument that after the Cataclysm a great many smaller cultural groups were nearly wiped out, and those left could at best only approximate what was lost. In that light, a group of Central European itinerant peoples, willing to live with d-bees, adopting a syncretic culture tenuously based on the remnants of past tradition, would be an interesting thing, and the term "gypsy" wouldn't necessarily be offensive to apply to them. The problem, of course, is that at first glance this comes across as lazy hack work that plays off of stereotypes, and having to explain the difference every time probably isn't worth it.

It's generally best to refer to distinct ethnic groups by their name, with the overarching term Itinerant peoples as a more general reference. If you just gotta have a cutesy name, Travelers is pretty commonly used. On Rifts Earth I'd posit nomadic Sami came out OK, the Sinti and Roma struggle to not be perceived as the same group, and there are far more Irish Travelers than WB 3 suggests.

[eliakon]

Just my .02$ on the Gypsy thing.
Palladium has an absolutely horrible track record of putting out books that pander to the basest racial and cultural stereotypes. England, Africa, New West, Spirit West, Russia, Triax, Japan, Australia, the list goes on an on.

So why would anyone be even remotely surprised at yet another ethnic stereotype used with not a thought in the world to if it is offensive, or accurate or anything besides "hey how much can we milk this one for"

[Zer0 Kay]

The term nomad pretty specifically refers to itinerant peoples that maintain livestock, while vagabond connotes petty crime and assorted other negative stereotypes. One could put forth a decent argument that after the Cataclysm a great many smaller cultural groups were nearly wiped out, and those left could at best only approximate what was lost. In that light, a group of Central European itinerant peoples, willing to live with d-bees, adopting a syncretic culture tenuously based on the remnants of past tradition, would be an interesting thing, and the term "gypsy" wouldn't necessarily be offensive to apply to them. The problem, of course, is that at first glance this comes across as lazy hack work that plays off of stereotypes, and having to explain the difference every time probably isn't worth it.

It's generally best to refer to distinct ethnic groups by their name, with the overarching term Itinerant peoples as a more general reference. If you just gotta have a cutesy name, Travelers is pretty commonly used. On Rifts Earth I'd posit nomadic Sami came out OK, the Sinti and Roma struggle to not be perceived as the same group, and there are far more Irish Travelers than WB 3 suggests.

The point is though is the reference of Gypsy in Rifts referring to a racial group or various racial groups that travel like the Romani did? If it is the people group then refer to them as they like if it is the lifestyle then more specifically refer to the life style (wanderer, traveler, nomad, vagabond, highwayman) whatever accurately describes it and stop trying to give it a culturally based name.

[Axelmania]

the LT inexplicably one-shot-killing both bogies with chest shots (through armor and gargoyle!).

Gurgoyles generally pilot those things. TX-41 burst can do 60 MD, even doubled to 120MD on a natural 20 that's still less than half the 250MDC the G-10 Power Armor has, or the minimum 100 MDC a Gurgoyle's main body has.

All I can figure is 2fold:
1) piloting PA is prioritized for Gurgoyles who are already injured, until they heal to full MDC, so he probably wasn't at full
2) the main body of the G-10 was already damaged from a previous conflict.

[jingizu999]

the LT inexplicably one-shot-killing both bogies with chest shots (through armor and gargoyle!).

Gurgoyles generally pilot those things. TX-41 burst can do 60 MD, even doubled to 120MD on a natural 20 that's still less than half the 250MDC the G-10 Power Armor has, or the minimum 100 MDC a Gurgoyle's main body has.

All I can figure is 2fold:
1) piloting PA is prioritized for Gurgoyles who are already injured, until they heal to full MDC, so he probably wasn't at full
2) the main body of the G-10 was already damaged from a previous conflict.

It's also possible that in this case rules accuracy makes for terrible narrative flow. Showing it taking 5 attacks to get through the armor of just one G-10 makes for a really slow comic. Especially when you only have 8 pages to work with. Showing the grizzled veteran with his "special" weapon taking out the enemy with one mighty blow while valiantly defending the new kid? That has drama, that has tension, that tells a story. It also avoids highlighting the most oft voiced criticism of the Palladium system, how long combat takes. Instead, it says "Hey, look at the exiting stories that you can tell with Rifts." And that sells books. That isn't to say Long couldn't have had the LT dragging the kid to cover while laying down fire with his laser, slowly chipping away at the G-10's, but that is a much longer story and makes the NGR look outmatched. I think Long made the right choice there.

As for the headguns, even if Long knew they were SDC weapons, when you're down to nothing you use what you have. Not because it will work. Not because there is some secret vulnerability or special ammo. But because you don't give up. Maybe he flinches and misses the next shot. Maybe the Lt. pegs the G-10 because the gurgoyle is distracted by this pathetic human shooting tiny bullets at him. Or maybe you just need to tell the universe "Damnit I'm a soldier, and I will meet my end fighting, not begging." Or I could be blowing smoke and he should have put an armor piercing mini-missile in the gurgoyle's face. Yeah, definitely the mini-missile.

Just my 2 cents.

[Axelmania]

He wasn't down to nothing though. He could've simply had the robot do an MD punch to the gargoyle. Only one of the hands was cut off.