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I am assuming I'm overlooking it, but can someone point out the conversion costs for the new Mauler and Samaritan gorehound types from the I am Legion sourcebook? I don't see them listed.

Thank you

for the basic enhancement on a samaritan, the main cost is the approval of the people who can authorize it... i wouldn't expect this to be something just handed out at random, it's going to be offered only to experienced packmasters with a track record of taking care of their pack as well as succeeding on missions. furthermore, i would expect it's reserved for those who need it; that is, if you're not expecting to have a special need for a dedicated medic, you probably won't be getting permission to have a samaritan.

once that hurdle is dealt with, there are penalties. these include significantly lower automatic dodge chance (you'll want to review their stat line closely, it does have at least some differences), reluctance to harm humans (which can be a problem, especially in the context of i am legion if they decide that one of legion's creations is human enough), distracted by seeing pain around them (this can be a problem in all manner of situations), as well as inability to use certain enhancements (including the loss of those enhancements if you previously had them applied and are upgrading an existing gorehound). oh, and also the time to create the gorehound.

and of course, any additional enhancements will have to be paid for with your usual bio-e allowance.

for the mauler, well, in addition to needing authorization and time like the samaritan, the cost is that your gorehound goes from being a general purpose warmount to being a killing machine that isn't much use for anything more than killing, and which may turn their talents for killing on just about anything whether you want them to or not. bearing in mind that hiding from the machine is not just a nice thing to be able to do, but a *requirement* for survival, that's a pretty hefty drawback.

additionally, any future enhancements to them cost double bio-e (page 99, the note just before the cerberus type is described). and then each specific type of mauler will have penalties. as described in their entry.

I had recognized most of that. I guess I was just assuming that there was a mechanical cost for the transition measured in bio-e points. The in-game costs are high, but I thought I was missing something mechanically.

as far as i can tell, there is no bio-e cost, mostly because you don't choose to have it done; your boss (or more likely, your boss's boss or somewhere further up than that) chooses to have it done. it isn't a standard option available to everyone.

and truthfully, i think the drawbacks are probably big enough to make you hesitate. the drawback on the mauler is pretty nasty. the drawback on the samaritan less so, but i find the benefit is also somewhat less amazing because by the time you're high enough level the brass are thinking of giving you a samaritan, you could have scrounged up a heck of a lot of healing patches anyways, they're really quite affordable after all.

Shark_Force wrote:as far as i can tell, there is no bio-e cost, mostly because you don't choose to have it done; your boss (or more likely, your boss's boss or somewhere further up than that) chooses to have it done. it isn't a standard option available to everyone.

and truthfully, i think the drawbacks are probably big enough to make you hesitate. the drawback on the mauler is pretty nasty. the drawback on the samaritan less so, but i find the benefit is also somewhat less amazing because by the time you're high enough level the brass are thinking of giving you a samaritan, you could have scrounged up a heck of a lot of healing patches anyways, they're really quite affordable after all.

Healing patches don’t remove bits of metal (or other things) from your body.

If your in good standing anytime your due for a new Gorehound you can ask/petition for a Samaritan or Mauler....failure to control them might have them removed from you.

A Samaritan will always come to its Pack Master, even against another human.

Something to keep in mind, first aid skills only go so far on the battlefield, Saints aren’t very common, and a base isn’t always close by.

sure, you can ask for a samaritan or mauler any time. but they're unlikely to spend the extra resources on *your* gorehound unless you've proven to be a good steward of the resources you've already been given, and level 3 is just not likely enough to convince them you've got what it takes unless you've done some pretty impressive stuff along the way.

and for the most part, samaritans don't remove metal bits from your body either (although metal bits in particular will have a tendency to remove themselves, though not necessarily in a way you might desire). you need to invest further into enhancing them for them to have any ability to do that.

now, i could definitely see most packmasters wanting to have a samaritan once they've built up a conventional pack, simply because a 5th regular hound isn't likely to do much that the first 4 couldn't, while a samaritan adds something new. and i would also suspect that around level 5 is when people might start taking your request for a samaritan seriously... you probably didn't get to level 5 with just one or two super lucky missions where you happened to escape serious harm, so if you've performed well in previous assignments at that point, i'd suspect they might seriously consider it. by the time you're adding your 6th or 7th hound (if you get that far), they may subtly encourage or even order it.

(incidentally, i do think the rules on replacing lost warmounts, host armour, etc, are a bit too harsh... you're up against a far more powerful foe, and "you must suffer no losses under any conditions ever or you are punished with getting less effective replacements" is just not a realistic policy in pretty much *any* military. so in my games, performing well doesn't necessarily mean you've never lost a single hound/armour/etc, it means you've succeeded in your assigned goals where possible, done as best as you could where success turns out to be unrealistic or too expensive, and haven't lost hounds or armour due to stupidity; charging headlong into a fight against two dozen robots alone means you aren't getting a good replacement for anything you lost, but trying to lead those two dozen robots away from a bao house full of wounded splicers, even if it means one of your hounds is killed, is not going to mean that you get a replacement hound with fewer bio-e... as long as it isn't happening all the time. basically, never being allowed to suffer any losses without penalty discourages all risk-taking, and in this fight you're not going to be a remotely effective soldier if you never take *any* risks; particularly since some risks are smart to take, because you miss out on too much if you don't take them).

I agree that level 5 is about the time I would expect the story requirements to be reasonably met to gain a Mauler or a Samaritan as well. And I think gaining the second not until level 7 or 8, once you have had the time to demonstrate that you can effectively use and control one of the more specialized 'hounds.

Does anyone have any thoughts on when granted the opportunity for a Mauler is it better to use a nearly new gorehound to convert, or to convert a gorehound that has been with you for a few levels and as such has a higher amount of bio-enhancements?

I tend to play in fairly heavy to very heavily granted Bio-e games, so I don't know how this would play out in other games where bio-e bonuses were a lot less common. To put it in perspective, it's not uncommon for each character to gain an extra 20 bio-e a level on average.

well, remember, most houses just won't even use maulers. and it isn't for moral reasons, either. the packmasters are not primarily intended as combatants, remember; they're capable in combat, but when you want a combat powerhouse, you send in the outriders and dreadguard. packmasters are primarily used as scouts.

now imagine if you had a scout that was unable to see an enemy and decide *not* to engage. that... doesn't sound great, does it? particularly when you could have had a gorehound that is still quite good at combat, albeit not *quite* as good, and will listen when you tell it that it's a bad idea to spring your ambush too early, and can recognize that fighting 20 enemies when you only have 5 allies nearby is a bad idea.

so, that right there, well, it won't mean that nobody has maulers, but it would certainly suggest to me at least that most houses will be very reluctant to use maulers unless they don't really understand what they're getting into. the resistance are not fighting the kind of war where they can afford to pick every single possible fight; you need to be able to choose your battles carefully, because your opponent practically speaking has unlimited resources and you don't.

so honestly, i would actually expect that if a given packmaster is getting any maulers, they would imo be likely to get mostly or all maulers, simply because it's signalling a shift in their expected duties; you're no longer a scout, you're being assigned to combat duty.

the samaritan, on the other hand, remains a competent all-around asset. you can still use one as a scout, you can even still use one in combat (though it will be reluctant in some cases to attack, it can still provide support, heal, guard allies, etc, and it won't be the least bit reluctant to attack NEXUS forces so you can still expect a staunch ally in many battles). officially, it probably is only available right this moment to a few houses that are allied with house artemis, but i see no reason there couldn't at least be an equivalent in other houses, and of course, nothing requires that you stick with official setting information in any case

in any event, to specifically answer your question about whether it's better to convert an existing hound or get a new one, i would expect both to be done in most cases where someone is getting a mauler, with the packmaster keeping only one or maybe two normal gorehounds (and possibly just having none at all). and that would only be done for packmasters that are going to be expected to be facing intense combat with very little scouting expected of them.

(i would also expect that samaritans and maulers get along very poorly, so i would expect to only see those two types mixed and matched when assigned to very experienced packmasters).

I never really thought about the challenges Maulers present to hiding. I haven't used them yet, as I just got my copy of I am Legion. It wasn't until rereading their entry just now that I realized they have the drive to attack without command. I was under the mistaken impression it was only after combat that they became hard to control. Good thing to realize now.

I have a feeling that you are correct in thinking Maulers and Samaritans wouldn't get along. I guess I'll need to look at how my game is going as far as choosing between a (nearly) full set of Maulers in a mostly direct and open combat game, and augmented gorehounds for a more recon and scouting game.

Any specific enhancements I should take a closer look at for the gorehounds in my pack? Currently, I'm thinking some combination of Advanced Eyes, Night Vision Eyes, Advanced senses, reinforced exoskeleton, regeneration, and large fangs/saber teeth.

well, their strongest attack is their leap attack for knockdown by far, if we're talking melee, unless the enemy is really large.

anyways, packmasters don't get a huge amount of bio-e to spread around, so i personally am really big on efficiency for them. low cost with good benefits if at all possible. combat benefits are nice, but focus on stealth, survivability, and perception imo; however, getting some ranged attacks on at least some of them can be really good too.

so, specifically, i like:

advanced eyes: they're recon. this is not too expensive and gives a nice boost.
electromagnetic vision: only on one though. being able to spot metal is super useful. being able to identify that 'helpful technojacker' as a nex-android is even more useful.
enhanced sight: if you can afford it.
forked tongue: at least one, maybe more.
motion detection: this is huge. get it on as many as you can afford for the automatic dodge boost.
sensitive whiskers: not a huge priority, but you may find yourself fighting in smoke a lot and this doesn't cost much.

bio-force field: you'd love to have this on all of them, but you'll be lucky to afford it on even one for a normal packmaster.
chameleon skin: you want at least one. and you also want to upgrade it to a stealth field if you can.
reinforced exoskeleton: this should really apply to the hound's leap attack, check with your GM. either way it's low-cost increased toughness. you want this.
regeneration(enhanced): gorehounds take a long time to heal. this helps soooooo much. you need basic first, which is unfortunate because it does next to nothing. you could probably get away with not taking this if you have a force field on a given gorehound.
resistance to electricity: avoid this. why, you ask? well, go look at the main book, page 101. read what the electric weapons do. now ask yourself: who would use these weapons for the damage? the only reason to pick it up is that you want something that has a prerequisite, and electrical weapons are probably not as good as your leap attack.
resistance to heat: low cost, resistance to plasma and such. you probably won't regret it.
stealth field: you wish you could afford it for everyone, but it costs a lot so you probably can't. still you want at least one, in my opinion.

circadian rhythms: you probably want at least one, potentially two, for long-term surveillance. but the prerequisite is expensive, and technically is absorbed when you upgrade to this... talk to your GM.
enhanced leaping ability: this basically turns the leap attack into a ranged attack. just buy the basic version, don't boost it.
enhanced neurological connections: you'd love to have this for everyone too, but it's expensive. it's also a prerequisite for some other cool stuff. get it if you can.
floating air bladder: you may want at least one, if only for the gills (or, depending on how your GM interprets it, just buy the gills without the upgrade, and buy it on most of your stuff). hiding underwater is helpful.

suction cups and gripping hairs: low cost ability to climb almost anything. pick it up.
leaping legs: you can buy this instead of enhanced leaping ability if you want the bonus damage.

gliding membranes: can be handy. put it on something with one of the jumping abilities, and you get yourself into the air from the ground no problem. pay attention to the low speed, though.

prehensile feet: can be helpful on at least one gorehound for urban areas. not for picking locks, of course, just for manipulating doors, levers, etc.
combat spurs: for your packmaster, if your GM will make the ability to slash hoses and cables useful.
reinforced body area: wherever your GM thinks the hound's leap attack comes from.

bio-e expulsion vents: for their excellent cost:benefit ratio, these are your primary ranged choice for the hounds. good range, respectable damage,
heat projector: it is really nice if you can afford it; this thing packs a real punch, has good range, and unlimited ammo.
organic rockets: it's handy to have some emergency AoE. long-range emergency AoE with indirect fire is even nicer. just pick up a few for special occasions, probably don't go all out.
omega blaster: with all your bonus bio-e, you might be able to afford it. it's really expensive, but then again, sometimes you just want a 10-foot diameter laser of doom. if you do get it, you'll probably want to make it super, omni, and mega. even before picking up a second one.
spore discharger: the basic version is low cost and gives infinite AoE attacks against robots. it would be nice to pick up the upgraded versions and even omni them, but that's nearly as affordable... anyways, it's nice to have the basic model on one or two hounds if you can afford it for taking out large groups of robots.
screamer grenades: the first one comes with free sound insulation. might be worth considering.
trench foot mines: a good low-cost explosive that can make it harder for someone to follow your trail. not every hound needs them, but i'd want to have at least one hound with a few.

from the I Am Legion book, the eye spy and the eye trigger may both be of interest to you, with the latter depending on how much artillery support you're likely to get mantis blades are probably worth the cost, especially if your GM considers your packmaster blades to be bone blades (they probably aren't, but maybe they are!). bio-forcefield spheres cost less than regular forcefield, and as such are probably more worthwhile for a packmaster in spite of the drawbacks. you may enjoy a shrieker launcher and the shrieker targeting ability, and possibly spread it around all of your hounds; for example, if you have one with exceptional vision that can fire a shrieker into a target, and you and all your hounds have shrieker targeting, you can all enjoy perfect accuracy against that target

That's a great list, some something very much worth me going through. Have you found it's better to specialize each 'hound, or keep things fairly generalized between them with the occasional one shot enhancement? My game will hit level seven by the time I'll be introducing my character. The GM has been pretty open to my requests and is willing to work with me heavily to create a backstory for the character.

I'm looking at a total of 6 gore hounds total with somewhere in the neighborhood of 72 bio-e to spend on each and another 210 to spread between them, and another 140 that can be spent on either the hounds or my living body armor. I know, this is a ridiculously high amount, and have double checked with the GM to make sure these numbers are correct.

Right now, I'm thinking of a couple dedicated melee brutes (maybe Maulers, but I'm still considering if the control issues are worth it), a dedicated scout, a demolition and explosives hound, and maybe a pair of more generalists?

personally, i think it's a good to have a mix. some should be specialized, especially with that much bio-e, but i do like to keep some things generalized; i like to have each hound reasonably mobile, for example, so if i'm buying climbing for one, i'd like to have it for all.

if i had that much bio-e, i'd probably start by figuring out a general package i want on all of them (i might go with climbing, the jumping legs, reinforced exoskeleton, advanced eyes, and 10 points into some form of ranged weapon (not necessarily all the same one, but i would probably have more with bio-e vent than anything else because it's just a really good all-around choice) and then start looking at specializing for the expensive stuff.

and of that 140 that can be spent anywhere, i'd probably spend a good chunk of it on the packmaster, but be very picky about weapons; handheld ranged weapons are really quite good in the splicers setting, and if you have access to the rules for improving your handheld weapons with bio-e, seriously consider investing that way. (melee weapon upgrades for your armour, on the other hand, can be pretty danged good). also check if you can improve your mega-horse (if you take one); it helps if your horse can go anywhere the rest of your pack can go, so it might be good to have a horse that can climb and do big jumps if your pack can also climb and do big jumps, for example.

and since i've given my thoughts on enhancements, i'll talk a bit about those handheld weapons too.

- most melee weapons are fairly similar. i like the concussion staff for the knockdown effect. it can also be used with WP reverse stroke, which is nice.
- bio-e rifle is probably not worth a heavy pick. the pistol version is a good investment though, imo at least. high damage, but limited safe shots per hour (*not* per round like the enhancement) make this a good sidearm, less good primary weapon imo.
- the light cell laser rifle and pistol are both good, for their unlimited ammo and ability to damage most enemies reliably. doubles as a hunting weapon with the SDC setting, and a powerful flashlight too. i like to choose the rifle with my light weapon pick from taking the WP (and you should take the WP).
- i love my pod rifles. i strongly encourage anyone to use their heavy pick on this. this is basically 32 organic rockets per hour albeit with shorter range, which means you'll run out with heavy use... but that's why you have a light cell laser rifle too. cleans up groups nice and quick, especially if everyone in the group has one.
- electro-pulse gun is a nice heavy weapon to use for special occasions. most of the time it will sit in your inventory doing nothing, until you need to disable a camera, disengage a magnetic lock, or seriously disable a lone robot (it should, for example, shut down rat bombs. or maybe detonate them at a safe distance. either one of those is nice, really). some standout possible results: disabling communications, shutting off force fields, disabled weapon, blinded opponent. this works best if your group has a bunch of them and can deploy them from ambush, for disabling scouts. you're not necessarily going to keep a scout from reporting in if you fire one blast, but if 6 people all use these from ambush with a called shot to hit the communications/sensors, you've got better than even odds of that robot going down without being able to warn anyone you were there.

so, what would i recommend? if you can persuade the rest of your group to buy into the electro-pulse gun, i like the laser rifle, pod rifle, and electro-pulse. if not, you could replace the electro-pulse gun with a bio-e pistol for what will most likely be heavier single-target damage than your rifle, in limited quantities. for the rest, i can't say i've seen a compelling reason to choose them over the 4 above (well, some of the special guns in I Am Legion, but those are all experimental prototypes that you probably won't be allowed to start off with )

So here is what I'm looking at, after taking your advice and getting a feel for some of the other players and their characters, I decided to focus primarily of scouting and recon, using the gorehounds to harry and harrass more than trying to directly cause large amounts of damage. The character sees himself as a sort of hunter, and prefers to stand back and take shots with his ranged weapons, only diving into melee if desperate or if finishing off anything that his hounds have already weakened.

Thoughts?

Shark_Force wrote:well, their strongest attack is their leap attack for knockdown by far, if we're talking melee, unless the enemy is really large.

anyways, packmasters don't get a huge amount of bio-e to spread around, so i personally am really big on efficiency for them. low cost with good benefits if at all possible. combat benefits are nice, but focus on stealth, survivability, and perception imo; however, getting some ranged attacks on at least some of them can be really good too.

so, specifically, i like:

advanced eyes: they're recon. this is not too expensive and gives a nice boost.
electromagnetic vision: only on one though. being able to spot metal is super useful. being able to identify that 'helpful technojacker' as a nex-android is even more useful.
enhanced sight: if you can afford it.
forked tongue: at least one, maybe more.
motion detection: this is huge. get it on as many as you can afford for the automatic dodge boost.
sensitive whiskers: not a huge priority, but you may find yourself fighting in smoke a lot and this doesn't cost much.

bio-force field: you'd love to have this on all of them, but you'll be lucky to afford it on even one for a normal packmaster.
chameleon skin: you want at least one. and you also want to upgrade it to a stealth field if you can.
reinforced exoskeleton: this should really apply to the hound's leap attack, check with your GM. either way it's low-cost increased toughness. you want this.
regeneration(enhanced): gorehounds take a long time to heal. this helps soooooo much. you need basic first, which is unfortunate because it does next to nothing. you could probably get away with not taking this if you have a force field on a given gorehound.
resistance to electricity: avoid this. why, you ask? well, go look at the main book, page 101. read what the electric weapons do. now ask yourself: who would use these weapons for the damage? the only reason to pick it up is that you want something that has a prerequisite, and electrical weapons are probably not as good as your leap attack.
resistance to heat: low cost, resistance to plasma and such. you probably won't regret it.
stealth field: you wish you could afford it for everyone, but it costs a lot so you probably can't. still you want at least one, in my opinion.

circadian rhythms: you probably want at least one, potentially two, for long-term surveillance. but the prerequisite is expensive, and technically is absorbed when you upgrade to this... talk to your GM.
enhanced leaping ability: this basically turns the leap attack into a ranged attack. just buy the basic version, don't boost it.
enhanced neurological connections: you'd love to have this for everyone too, but it's expensive. it's also a prerequisite for some other cool stuff. get it if you can.
floating air bladder: you may want at least one, if only for the gills (or, depending on how your GM interprets it, just buy the gills without the upgrade, and buy it on most of your stuff). hiding underwater is helpful.

suction cups and gripping hairs: low cost ability to climb almost anything. pick it up.
leaping legs: you can buy this instead of enhanced leaping ability if you want the bonus damage.

gliding membranes: can be handy. put it on something with one of the jumping abilities, and you get yourself into the air from the ground no problem. pay attention to the low speed, though.

prehensile feet: can be helpful on at least one gorehound for urban areas. not for picking locks, of course, just for manipulating doors, levers, etc.
combat spurs: for your packmaster, if your GM will make the ability to slash hoses and cables useful.
reinforced body area: wherever your GM thinks the hound's leap attack comes from.

bio-e expulsion vents: for their excellent cost:benefit ratio, these are your primary ranged choice for the hounds. good range, respectable damage,
heat projector: it is really nice if you can afford it; this thing packs a real punch, has good range, and unlimited ammo.
organic rockets: it's handy to have some emergency AoE. long-range emergency AoE with indirect fire is even nicer. just pick up a few for special occasions, probably don't go all out.
omega blaster: with all your bonus bio-e, you might be able to afford it. it's really expensive, but then again, sometimes you just want a 10-foot diameter laser of doom. if you do get it, you'll probably want to make it super, omni, and mega. even before picking up a second one.
spore discharger: the basic version is low cost and gives infinite AoE attacks against robots. it would be nice to pick up the upgraded versions and even omni them, but that's nearly as affordable... anyways, it's nice to have the basic model on one or two hounds if you can afford it for taking out large groups of robots.
screamer grenades: the first one comes with free sound insulation. might be worth considering.
trench foot mines: a good low-cost explosive that can make it harder for someone to follow your trail. not every hound needs them, but i'd want to have at least one hound with a few.

from the I Am Legion book, the eye spy and the eye trigger may both be of interest to you, with the latter depending on how much artillery support you're likely to get mantis blades are probably worth the cost, especially if your GM considers your packmaster blades to be bone blades (they probably aren't, but maybe they are!). bio-forcefield spheres cost less than regular forcefield, and as such are probably more worthwhile for a packmaster in spite of the drawbacks. you may enjoy a shrieker launcher and the shrieker targeting ability, and possibly spread it around all of your hounds; for example, if you have one with exceptional vision that can fire a shrieker into a target, and you and all your hounds have shrieker targeting, you can all enjoy perfect accuracy against that target

Have a look at Reinforced Knuckles or Body Area....page 96

And in Ritter 59 page 21.....Skill Packages.....as all your gorehounds have a few identical enhancements. Will help you stretch your Bio-E a bit more

TagsPB wrote:Have a look at Reinforced Knuckles or Body Area....page 96

And in Ritter 59 page 21.....Skill Packages.....as all your gorehounds have a few identical enhancements. Will help you stretch your Bio-E a bit more

I'm using 2 of the kill packages, explosive ordinance sniffer and recon/scout, though, I'm not sure what that has to do with saving bio-e. If you're talking about the reference to enhancements being placed on all gore hounds in a pack at the same time costing 1 less bio-e, I interpreted that to be only for packmasters who only ever enhance their gorehounds exactly the same. If the broader interpretation is correct, it would only save me 6, and only on each of my first level gorehounds. After that, everything gets a little wonky.

from what i recall, the article has 3 types of packmasters (don't own that rifter yet, had to look at a friend's). the purists who modify hounds as little as possible, the type that picks a lot of the same enhancements for all hounds and specializes them, and then... err... the other type... that does something different which i can't remember at all.

anyways, point being, picking a core group of enhancements for your hounds pretty much lets you get a discount on them. you don't have to have every enhancement identical, you get the discount for each enhancement that all hounds get. from what i can see, you've got 3 enhancements that every hound gets (jumping legs, grip hairs, advanced eyes - maybe basic regen too, i'm too tired to check atm ) which should mean you save 18 bio-e (or at least, the way i would enforce that rule is that as soon as you get a new hound, they must buy those enhancements - with the 1 point discount - before buying other stuff, and since you've got those enhancements on every hound, that means you should get the discount imo).

as to the character, it looks pretty solid, as long as your GM is ok with you having that amount of equipment... the collars i recall not being super expensive, but i could've swore the barding options were pretty pricey, and they are not by default issued as part of the core packmaster OCC. given how much tougher it makes your hounds, and how much faster it heals itself, i've felt reluctant to make it a piece of standard issue gear in my games because it really changes the balance of the packmaster... but from the sound of it, your GM is planning a high-powered game, and as long as the opponents are appropriate, it should be fine.

you've got a pretty good spread of abilities, but each of them can be a pretty good generalist too.

(just to be clear, as far as being logical for the great house to issue barding for all gorehounds, that is quite frankly a no-brainer; gorehounds have a theoretical value of 1 million credits iirc, the barding less than 50,000 credits. the gorehounds are all customized, the barding is fairly mass-produced and requires no customization. if the great house is so desperate for resources that they can't afford barding for all of their gorehounds, they should instead make 95% as many gorehounds and crank out barding for them. the only real question is why doesn't every single warmount type get barding made for them as well? most of them have trade values even higher than gorehounds).

i will say, if your GM is giving you the barding, the enhanced regeneration ability becomes a lot less important. iirc, recovery rates match living body armour, and living body armour all recovers MDC every minute instead of every hour...

anyways, i haven't seen your full character sheet (make sure you have both heavy and light WPs, btw), but you'll probably be able to pick up at least one or two other handheld melee weapons; you get one heavy or light base, and then one for every WP (which is part of why you want both heavy and light WP, but also because there are good heavy and good light handheld weapons and you want to be as good at using them as possible ).

With standard gorehounds costing a million a piece and the most expensive barding at 28,000, I have been kind of working under the impression that while they might not be readily available at level one or maybe 2, by levels 3 or 4, packmasters should be able to fairly easily requisition them. According to the article, they are available by "request" to soldiers with gorehounds, usually packmasters. I'll talk to the GM, but I cannot really foresee him balking at the barding. If he has an issue, I will work something out with him. It's not absolutely necessary, but it sure helps the 'hounds' survivability, arguably the weakest part of a packmaster given the consequences and lost resources if one dies. The way I look at it is that gorehounds are supposed to be used for more risky jobs then host armor or something equivalent as even though they cost quite a bit of resources, they aren't human life. The barding is effectively the House saying 'hey, we know that the gore hounds are going to be sent to do things we cannot risk a human life for, but we dont want to lose the resources invested either.'

I'll try and work up more character details, but yeah, both weapon proficencies look like a good idea. How worth it do you think it is for a melee weapon proficiency if I plan on trying to keep the packmaster at range?

truthfully, at that cost barding is so dirt cheap it should realistically be mandatory; forgetting it should be the kind of thing that gets you chewed out by your superior officers for a very long time.

but like i said, i feel it really messes with the balance of the class in a big way. more than most OCCs, battlemasters get a huge benefit from low-cost gear with high effectiveness.

and in any event, i'd make a point of having at least *some* close combat capability. trying to stay at range is all very well and good, but it certainly doesn't mean you're going to get what you want

I'm still talking to the GM about it. For them moment, we are kind of figuring that the barding, while powerful and cheap, shouldn't screw anything up too badly, and if nothing else, the House could always request it back for more combat oriented packs.

You think I'll need more close combat ability than what comes standard to the class? If so, any particular suggestions? I can relocate some bio-e towards the armor or even towards a melee weapon of needed. (Maybe about 47 pts)

you don't even necessarily need to move any bio-e around. but the machine does use close combat, which means you can't always be confident you'll avoid it completely.

just be prepared for when it happens... have some decent melee capability; paired weapons or WP reverse stroke and appropriate WP will be fine for most things where your immediate response shouldn't be "run away screaming in terror" anyways

Shark_Force wrote:you don't even necessarily need to move any bio-e around. but the machine does use close combat, which means you can't always be confident you'll avoid it completely.

just be prepared for when it happens... have some decent melee capability; paired weapons or WP reverse stroke and appropriate WP will be fine for most things where your immediate response shouldn't be "run away screaming in terror" anyways

Packmaster comes with paired weapons, WP sword, and WP knife, as well as the packmaster blades (2d8). I was kind of thinking that should be enough to deal with any melee that comes up. I was kind of thinking that anything that couldn't handle would be in the "run away in terror" category. Just because the character prefers operating at a distance doesnt mean I wanted him to be gimped if something jumped out of the bushes at him. At the very least, I'm hoping he would be able to hold his own until his pack or the party can help him disengage.

hmm... i had forgotten the packmaster didn't have to choose WP paired, thought you had to pick it up specifically. yeah, you should be ok then. i like the concussion stuff for its crowd control abilities more than the packmaster blades, but probably not enough to spend the skill selections on it when you've already got decent capabilities and melee won't be a focus

since you'll be using your swords in melee, when you're looking at extra skills to round out the character don't forget fencing, though... every bonus you can get to parry will help you survive in melee. of course, if there's another physical skill that offers parry and something better, go with that instead

Here are the skills I was looking at:

Those numbers are after levelling bonuses and intelligence bonus. As far as combat goes, H2H:expert, WP: Knife, Sword, Paired, Bio-weapon: Light and Heavy, and Fencing should give me a place to start. Vital Points, and Sniper give him some bonuses to making aimed and called ranged attacks with his Light Cell Laser Rifle and his Pod Rifle as well if I recall correctly.

I deleted my previous post and, having slept, will attempt a more accurate answer to the initial question. While I think a Packmaster character wouldn't have to pay to get these upgrades in the course of a game, we can estimate their value. I'll list each Gorehound, followed by the basic total of the Bio-Enhancements listed in each hound's entry(which save a couple of exceptions are all in the main book), followed by the Bio-Enhancements that don't have specific costs. The number of attacks seem correct, but some of the combat bonuses don't exactly match up. The major penalties for each variety are loss of automatic dodge, behavioral changes, and increased cost of future upgrades. The Samaritan's gaining of additional tentacles at higher levels is not factored in, and I would say should have the regular Bio-E cost.

Cerberus: 290, not counting the two extra heads, but including the new heads' fangs and gore cannons. The 3 sets of medium gore cannons cost 135 by themselves. An Additional Head grants 1 attack without benefit of Supernatural Strength and maybe a +1 to HF, so I'd peg it at 20-25 Bio-E each, for a total of 330-350.

Shocker: 160, or 180 if the Electromagnetic Vision eyes are not the Gorehound's only set of eyes, and which excludes the Electrical Bite. The base bite damage is 3d8 instead of 3d6, and the initial Bio-Enhancement list includes Electrical discharger, while the description of the bite mentions a Lightning discharger with half the range. Since the attack causes full damage at range and is a little higher damage than the Lightning discharger, I'm folding in the die boost to base bite damage and putting it at 20 Bio-E. My estimate then is the Shocker upgrades are worth 180/200 Bio-E.

Shredder: 169, not counting the bite. The bite is the Ripper Maw from page 120 with 33% more damage but lacking the bonus to H.F., which I'm estimating as being worth 40 points. The Shredder's mods are worth ~209 Bio-E.

Samaritan: 185, not counting the Crane Tail upgrade from Prehensile Tail, nor the Slap Patch Tongue. There are a couple of minor details about this total. The Suction Cups and Gripping Hairs mod is 5 points for 2 limbs, while the Samaritan gets it for 5. Since the tentacles are capable of upgrades and get cups of their own, I put it at 15 Bio-E in total, rather than 12.5 or the like. Also, the MDC total is high enough to warrant 1 more Increased MDC Enhancement. However, the +2 to MA is wildly overpriced, and so I'm comfortable calling it a wash. The Crane Tail doesn't grant a bonus attack, but is strong, prehensile, and can pry away debris. I'm inclined to place it at 20 Bio-E. The Slap Patch Tongue/Sterilizing dew combo I'll call 30. A Samaritan upgrade then, by this accounting, is worth 235 Bio-E.

Obviously these upgrades are worth it, provided a Packmaster wants a combat/medic focus. As for how to spend other Bio-E, I'd go with an initial package of Advanced Eyes, Enhanced Regeneration, Enhanced Leaping Ability, and Reinforced Body Area for a total of 30. Solid choices from there are Motion detector, Bio-Force Field Emitter Spheres, and Bio-Energy Expulsion Vents, but I'd save most Bio-E gained from levels for non-Mauler/Samaritan Gorehounds. At least one should have a stealth focus, and I'd consider making one a Shrieker sniper.

How about a reinforced spine & skull? You know for headbuts that enhance damage effects toward the machine?