Is there tattoo magic referenced anywhere in the PFRPG?

[thorr-kan]

I thought I remembered something in Jungles, but I'm not finding anything.

There's Danzi Spirit Tattoos in Eastern Territory, but I thought there was something else.

[The Beast]

I thought I remembered something in Jungles, but I'm not finding anything.

There's Danzi Spirit Tattoos in Eastern Territory, but I thought there was something else.

There's a line in D&G about Chaing-ku not using tattoo magic since it was purged from PFRPG after the Elf-Dwarf war, but that's it.

[thorr-kan]

I could have sworn something about the witch and undead hunters.

[kiralon]

I could have sworn something about the witch and undead hunters.

Neither do have any tattoo magic.

Tattoo magic is limited to the Danzi.

[Hotrod]

Chiang-Ku are described in Dragons and Gods, and the description states that they respect the whole "get rid of all magic" push of that place following the Elf/Dwarf wars, so they don't give out or even use tattoo magic while they're there. I've never particularly cared for this explanation for a few reasons.

First, I don't see an anti-magic or anti-exotic-forms-of-magic theme anywhere in the present setting. There are schools of magic and people who openly use it (wizards, warlocks, mystics, diabolists, summoners, alchemists, and arguably, priests). The Millennium of Purification succeeded in eliminating practitioners of certain schools, but this effort has not persisted to the present, and in fact, many peoples and nations are very keen to rediscover ancient magics.

Second, the Dragons and Gods description states that the Chiang-Ku do this out of respect for the Elves and Dwarves deciding to eliminate this magic from the world, and they are all about "letting the people of a world choose their own direction." This makes no sense. Tattoo magic only works at its best on Chiang-Ku and humans; it doesn't work on dwarves and doesn't work well on elves, so their decision to eliminate tattoo magic (if that even was a specific thing) was likely more about keeping humans down than eliminating the evils of their past (rune magic, nastier types of power circles, et cetera). Furthermore elves and dwarves are minorities in almost every region they inhabit. The species that constitute most of "the people of the world" didn't participate in the millennium of purification and aren't against more exotic forms of magic.

Finally, even if there were some kind of international magic control UN-style organization in Palladium that was actively controlled by the majority of people on the planet, I don't see why Chiang-Ku would abide by outside authorities in restricting what they do. They certainly don't do this in Rifts, the only other setting in which they appear. The Dragons and Gods text suggests that most Chiang-Ku on the Palladium Fantasy world refuse to use their tattoos, even to save their own lives, going so far as to state that only miscreant or diabolic Chiang-Ku would do so. This seems beyond ludicrous to me.

All that said, I'm actually OK with the Chiang-Ku not sharing tattoo magic on the Palladium world on the basis of not interfering with the balance of power between the many races, since it would give humans a huge advantage over almost every other race on the planet. I'd also be ok with a more mysterious rationale stemming from concerns over the Old Ones slumbering in the deep; perhaps tattoo magic has special risks unique to the Palladium Fantasy world?

The canon explanation, however, is nonsense, and I ignore it. If you want to have some tattoo magic, just have a Chiang-Ku give them out. If you want to respect the apparent prohibition on tattoo magic in Palladium Fantasy and you want something like tattoo magic, you can go with the Danzi tattoos or have a diabolist sew a permanence ward on a given character.

[dreicunan]

I am very much in agreement with Hotrod about the illogical nature of the canon explanation. I can buy it dying out during the Millennium of Purification, but not that the Chiang-Ku would never reintroduce it or even use it. Also, nothing would be stopping a True Atlantean Tattoo Master from setting up shop and empowering some people, be it for noble or ignoble ends.

[Library Ogre]

As an aside, the Danzi (weird cheetah people from Eastern Territories) have a form of magic tattooing, but not True Atlantean Tattoo Magic.

For my part, I view Tattoo Magic in Palladium as being mostly a lost art... no one here knows how to practice it, the elves and dwarves wouldn't have been terribly interested in it (it is horribly painful and disfiguring for elves, dwarves can't use it, and no one cared about humans), and the Chiang-Ku aren't about to introduce a lost magical art into the world, because they respect the Prime Directive (unlike those bastards in Starfleet). Lacking tattoo masters, the art really can't get a foothold anywhere... even if Bob the Chiang-ku came in and gave magic tattoos to 300,000 people, those tattoos will be lost in 60 years or so when everyone dies of old age.

So, someone COULD do these things, but no one necessarily HAS.

[kiralon]

So, someone COULD do these things, but no one necessarily HAS.

Totally agree, maybe it could appear in garden of the gods or another upcoming book to renew it more, but as it is, if you want some magical tattoos you go to the danzi.

[thorr-kan]

I could have sworn something about the witch and undead hunters.

Neither do have any tattoo magic.

Tattoo magic is limited to the Danzi.

I know. So probably my memory confabulating PFRPG undead hunters with Rifts undead slayers.

Thanks, all.

[eliakon]

I could have sworn something about the witch and undead hunters.

Neither do have any tattoo magic.

Tattoo magic is limited to the Danzi.

I know. So probably my memory confabulating PFRPG undead hunters with Rifts undead slayers.

Thanks, all.

The Chang-Ku dragons are supposedly involved in the creation of the Undead Hunters. And helped to found the monasteries.
But they have not provided the Hunters with Tattoos because 'reasons'.

[thorr-kan]

The Chang-Ku dragons are supposedly involved in the creation of the Undead Hunters. And helped to found the monasteries.
But they have not provided the Hunters with Tattoos because 'reasons'.

THAT'S what I remember! Thanks.

[The Beast]

The Chang-Ku dragons are supposedly involved in the creation of the Undead Hunters. And helped to found the monasteries.
But they have not provided the Hunters with Tattoos because 'reasons'.

Where did you get that from? It's not in their description in book 7.

[kiralon]

It's in the Chiang-Ku dragon description in D&G that it's rumoured that one started, and continues to run the monastery that trains the Undead Hunters, so it might not be true, but the continues to run bit makes me think it's likely that it is.

[Hotrod]

In my head-canon, Chiang-Ku are also very rare on the Palladium Fantasy world, but the small handful who live there have no prohibition against using their own tattoos. Bestowing tattoos on others is something done very rarely, and only to one who is worthy and has a specific need for a specific tattoo or small combination thereof.

For example, a dragon might empower a warrior to fight undead with the tattoo that grans immunity from vampiric mind control and a simple wooden weapon. Another might provide some healing power tattoos to a worthy psi-healer who has to try to keep up with the astonishing rate of casualties coming in during a high-intensity war (especially since psi-healers suck so badly at their job). Such dragons would likely bestow the subtler, less attention-grabbing tattoos than the flashier and more distinctive tattoos like monster tattoos, and they would not create proper tattooed characters unless the world was literally going to hell (a la major Minion War outbreak all over the planet), so characters would not get more than six tattoos total.

Keep in mind that even a Chiang-Ku dragon in the Palladium Fantasy world might prefer to use other resources to help such characters, like giving them magic items, teaching spells/circles, or using the dragon's network of friends to bring in additional allies.

[Library Ogre]

I'd also point out that empowering a tattoo warrior is a time-intensive process... IIRC, each tattoo takes a while to heal from, and so you have to get them in sequence. Since anyone not a T-man pays double for tattoos, you have to find a sweet spot of "Has lots of PPE" and "Not otherwise a magic-user" for a non-T-man to get much out of an isolated tattoo. (Sure, simple weapons and some things will be fine, but that's not what you really need)

[Hotrod]

I'd also point out that empowering a tattoo warrior is a time-intensive process... IIRC, each tattoo takes a while to heal from, and so you have to get them in sequence. Since anyone not a T-man pays double for tattoos, you have to find a sweet spot of "Has lots of PPE" and "Not otherwise a magic-user" for a non-T-man to get much out of an isolated tattoo. (Sure, simple weapons and some things will be fine, but that's not what you really need)

One way in which I might use magic tattoos in the game might go like this:

The characters lose in a fight, and lose badly; they're lucky to have survived at all, and the big bad villain considers them either dead or effectively vanquished. The Chiang-Ku or friends brings the wounded (comatose?) party to a hidden sanctuary. As the characters recuperate, the Chiang-Ku provides some special insight into the Big Bad's nature and bestows magic tattoos specifically catered to help them in their next fight against the Big Bad.

Given the assortment of other ways in which the helper NPC could empower the player characters, tattoos aren't all that necessary, but against some very specific foes or Big Bads, they could be an elegant solution. The fact that they're unheard-of on the Palladium Fantasy world could also be useful.

[AlanGunhouse]

It mentions that "Dragons", presumably Chian-Ku, taught the Danzi how to create their tattoos and that the Danzi respect all good dragons to this day because of it.

I recently posted a theory about Danzi Tattoos being something very different from other apparently similar magics.

[Axelmania]

There's a line in D&G about Chaing-ku not using tattoo magic since it was purged from PFRPG after the Elf-Dwarf war, but that's it.

That never sat right with me, since you still have summoners bringing in demons and diabolists making permanence wards out of their bones, but somehow it's the magic tats making energy horses that's dangerous.

their decision to eliminate tattoo magic (if that even was a specific thing) was likely more about keeping humans down

Giving humans the ability to spend PPE to make a knife as needed would be a pretty nice equalizer against Wolfen and their claws

[Library Ogre]

There's a line in D&G about Chaing-ku not using tattoo magic since it was purged from PFRPG after the Elf-Dwarf war, but that's it.

That never sat right with me, since you still have summoners bringing in demons and diabolists making permanence wards out of their bones, but somehow it's the magic tats making energy horses that's dangerous.

My rationale, in the MoMm, was that summoning grew out of diabolism after the Millenium of Purification.

[kiralon]

Circle magic existed in the time of the old ones, as there is a magic circle made of old one blood (used by the old ones)that is in relatively the same format as todays circles (Not that a summoner could make it mind you). I feel that summoning has been around longer than just the time of the purification.

[Library Ogre]

Circle magic existed in the time of the old ones, as there is a magic circle made of old one blood (used by the old ones)that is in relatively the same format as todays circles (Not that a summoner could make it mind you). I feel that summoning has been around longer than just the time of the purification.

Oh, certainly. But, in my version, it was purged during the Millenium Purification, but diabolists rediscovered it subsequently. They have the ability to learn circles, even from one they find on the ground. Someone who decides to delve into this might recreate circle magic.

[kiralon]

that makes sense

[Library Ogre]

Palladium has one of those crazy-long fantasy timelines, which, to an extent, work because you have such long-lived races, but which get kinda weird from a technology standpoint (and I include magic in this). The Millennium of Purification ended 7,000 years ago. If we're talking 7000 years ago on earth, we're talking the start of pottery, the domestication of the pig, and the growth of rice. The Sahara was still a savanna in 5000 BCE.

Timiro is 2800 years old. That's the Etruscans, who predated the Romans. That's the beginning of the Iron Age in Europe... we don't even have CELTS at this point. There's no such thing as Irish, Scots, or even Gauls, because they haven't moved out of Germany.

If you give me a tool as powerful as diabolism and 7000 years, I will summon you a host of demons and a host of angels to fight them.

[ShadowLogan]

Second, the Dragons and Gods description states that the Chiang-Ku do this out of respect for the Elves and Dwarves deciding to eliminate this magic from the world, and they are all about "letting the people of a world choose their own direction." This makes no sense. Tattoo magic only works at its best on Chiang-Ku and humans; it doesn't work on dwarves and doesn't work well on elves, so their decision to eliminate tattoo magic (if that even was a specific thing) was likely more about keeping humans down than eliminating the evils of their past (rune magic, nastier types of power circles, et cetera). Furthermore elves and dwarves are minorities in almost every region they inhabit. The species that constitute most of "the people of the world" didn't participate in the millennium of purification and aren't against more exotic forms of magic.

Perhaps Tattoo magic made the list due to:
-limited racial aspect (only 4 known races, 5 if you consider True Atlanteans a separate race), stamping out a branch of magic seems easier to do than Genocide (given the Purification was to atone for atrocities it seems)
-its deformation impact on Elves (premature aging and attribute hits, a generic Elf T-man OCC in WB2 is going to be aged ~80years and -2IQ and -4PB, never mind some of the other T-OCCs that would hit them harder)
-Tattoo Magic is only defined in Rifts (AFAIK), but there are only a few known subtypes, one of which is a secret (SA1's Monster Shaping) and one is new (SDM's Arrows) from a Splugorth perspective. Perhaps there are other subtypes which justify it and it is unknown to them (or they know about them, but even they don't want to use them).
-Perhaps Tattoo Magic was "associated" with something similar and they couldn't tell the difference between "Tattoo Magic" and "Looks like Tattoo Magic". Rifts Earth does have Line Magic (in SA2, which might be mistaken on their Rune Warrior OCC), not-true T-Magic (in Japan, though the list is 1 or 2 powers). Now I am not saying these two examples are/were on the Palladium World, but they do show that you can have magic that would resemble it.
Perhaps T-Magic's stamping out isn't to keep humans down, but rather to keep Ogres down (enemy to Dwarves and Elves) and humans have to take the hit in order to keep the power from falling into Ogre hands

[Library Ogre]

Not so sure about ogres... they don't get a major mission on the timeline until 4100 ybp, whereas humans are 14,000 ybp, significantly before the Elf-Dwarf War or the Millennium of Purification.

I wonder if human T-men weren't used as weapons in the Elf-Dwarf war. The potential of tattoo magic to turn normal humans into creatures of magic that happen to be difficult to control juggernauts... with little need to study or learn... might have been a factor in the removal.

[Whiskeyjack]

Humans were found only in the Yin Sloth Jungles and were almost wiped out in the war of the gods. It's quite likely the reason there was never much interest in Tattoo magic, is simply that there was no one to use it on.

[Elvendork]

Maybe the Splugorth did try to introduce tat magic to Palladium but since we know it only worked on elves with side effects , those Elven kingdoms rightly thought the Splugorth were actually some sort of corrupting demon and cast them out. Meanwhile the Chiang Ku heard about that and respected the decision and went somewhere else like Atlantis and since the side effects weren’t as bad on humans eventually the Chiang Ku were able to perfect it for humans too

[Hotrod]

Well, there is one place where tattoo magic was almost certainly a thing. A True Atlantean colony at the Islands at the Edge of the World existed long ago. It died out, but ruins of it remain there, in the Floenries, and at archipelagos at the cardinal points along the Edge of the World (the Gruzzia islands, for example).

[SolCannibal]

Little random aside - are there any other brands of magic strongly associated with certain species/races of magical creatures like Tatoo Magic is with the Chiang-Ku?

[Library Ogre]

Well, Danzi and Spirit Tattoos.
Jungle Elves and Biomancy
Lynn-Syrial and Cloudweaving
I think whoever has Blue Fire Magic has it mostly racialized (I cannot remember)
Native Americans and a lot of the Shaman Spells.
Temporal Raiders and Temporal Magic.

Those are off the top of my head.

[Hotrod]

Prometheans and phase tech/magic

[SolCannibal]

Well, Danzi and Spirit Tattoos.
Jungle Elves and Biomancy
Lynn-Syrial and Cloudweaving
I think whoever has Blue Fire Magic has it mostly racialized (I cannot remember)
Native Americans and a lot of the Shaman Spells.
Temporal Raiders and Temporal Magic.

Those are off the top of my head.

Prometheans and phase tech/magic

Jungle Elves and native americans, along with Nhur Dwarves and their "rune weapons-lite" i would count as cultures more than magical creature races and the Danzi i know nothing about, but it's still a very good list to tinker with anyway, thanks guys.

edit: just read into the Danzi. It makes an interesting edge case in that it is a racially-locked variant power for the Shaman O.C.C. I kind of keep imagining what could happen if some individual from a supernatural context, like say, a cobbler goblin (that also seem to have some fairy roots and limited magic) turned shaman, got tattooed by a Danzi shaman, if such a turn of fate could or not lead to some incidental revelation/inspiration. Could make an interesting character background or plot at least.

I thought I remembered something in Jungles, but I'm not finding anything.

There's Danzi Spirit Tattoos in Eastern Territory, but I thought there was something else.

Well, it bears mention the following, straight from the first paragraphon Danzi Spirit Tattoos.

Note: Danzi Spirit Tattoos were inspired by Tattoo Magic from the pages of Rifts® World Book 2: Atlantis, but are very different. However, the two may be related, and both certainly once existed during the Time of a Thousand Magicks.

So, while canon says nothing specific, there's an admitted OoC influence, what gives GMs more than enough freedom to make a relation of sorts between them, like some ancient mostly forgotten contact & mutual exchange between the Chiang-Ku and Danzi leading the creation of their own variant, maybe as a way to circunvent or channel Netosa's legendary curse.

edit2: And because i'm an idiot, i managed to spout all that fanwank while completely missing the second paragraph.

The Danzi call this magic "Kratos," meaning "Spirit Mark" or "Spirit Tattoo." In legend, the Danzi speak of a serpentine dragon by the name of Xao-Tey-Long who taught them the secret shortly after the fall of the Old Ones. Unable to repay their debt to Xao-Tey-Long, the Danzi honor and respect all dragons and will go out of their way to assist one if he is honorable or asks of them some simple request.

I'm in need of a facepalm icon....

Anyway, a relation between both forms of tattoo magic is kind of acknowledged ingame too.
Yeah, one could make a case for it being another serpentine dragon species no problem, but it's still a pretty clear hint.

[SolCannibal]

Sorry for derailing from the main subject somewhat, but i have something of a question.

Could circles, wards, power words and other elements of diabolist/summoner magic be used effectively in a person's skin as tattoos, or temporary designs like henna drawings and such? The visual stuck in my mind just a few minutes ago and my knowledge of Diabolism mechanics and limitations is between mediocre to null, so i would really appreciate some input on that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sorry for derailing from the main subject somewhat, but i have something of a question.

Could circles, wards, power words and other elements of diabolist/summoner magic be used effectively in a person's skin as tattoos, or temporary designs like henna drawings and such? The visual stuck in my mind just a few minutes ago and my knowledge of Diabolism mechanics and limitations is between mediocre to null, so i would really appreciate some input on that.

As per the "rules" (summoner) circles no.
The written word mages, yes, but they fade w/o a permanence ward on a proper material component, that is attached to the person.

Thou, I would point out the Line drawer mages and the Pattern Warriors in one of the SA books from that other game.
----------
As myself.
tattooing spells into one's-self as a mage is something that is, if not common, not unexpected in their portrayal in media.

[SolCannibal]

Sorry for derailing from the main subject somewhat, but i have something of a question.

Could circles, wards, power words and other elements of diabolist/summoner magic be used effectively in a person's skin as tattoos, or temporary designs like henna drawings and such? The visual stuck in my mind just a few minutes ago and my knowledge of Diabolism mechanics and limitations is between mediocre to null, so i would really appreciate some input on that.

As per the "rules" (summoner) circles no.
The written word mages, yes, but they fade w/o a permanence ward on a proper material component, that is attached to the person.

Thou, I would point out the Line drawer mages and the Pattern Warriors in one of the SA books from that other game.
----------
As myself.
tattooing spells into one's-self as a mage is something that is, if not common, not unexpected in their portrayal in media.

That is help aplenty to tinker with for my games. Looks like the Grafitto gang's bag of street tricks/trades just got a little boost.
Also a little something extra for your attention-grabbing caravan/circus/gypsy troupe fortuneller or performing magician. Thanks.

[Library Ogre]

Sorry for derailing from the main subject somewhat, but i have something of a question.

Could circles, wards, power words and other elements of diabolist/summoner magic be used effectively in a person's skin as tattoos, or temporary designs like henna drawings and such? The visual stuck in my mind just a few minutes ago and my knowledge of Diabolism mechanics and limitations is between mediocre to null, so i would really appreciate some input on that.

Circles, no; there would be too much outside the circle. There might be some power circles which it would work for, but I would require some significant research to make that work. Wards? Yes. Aside from the infamous Permanence Ward, the book also allows wards to be drawn directly on the skin; they mention torture, but I'm pretty use a "protection from [condition]" ward can be used, and "protection by infliction wards" should be usable by the diabolist themselves, on the diabolist (since they do not disturb their own wards, but others may).

[SolCannibal]

Sorry for derailing from the main subject somewhat, but i have something of a question.

Could circles, wards, power words and other elements of diabolist/summoner magic be used effectively in a person's skin as tattoos, or temporary designs like henna drawings and such? The visual stuck in my mind just a few minutes ago and my knowledge of Diabolism mechanics and limitations is between mediocre to null, so i would really appreciate some input on that.

Circles, no; there would be too much outside the circle. There might be some power circles which it would work for, but I would require some significant research to make that work. Wards? Yes. Aside from the infamous Permanence Ward, the book also allows wards to be drawn directly on the skin; they mention torture, but I'm pretty use a "protection from [condition]" ward can be used, and "protection by infliction wards" should be usable by the diabolist themselves, on the diabolist (since they do not disturb their own wards, but others may).

Yes, that reinforces the ideas i had in mind for a little bit of character color in my Rifts game, where some diabolists of the local magic academy mixed up with graffiti artists and evolved into one of the major gangs the city the PCs are based into.
Indeed the kingdom of New Byzantium (relation with similarly named kingdom from Palladium undecided so far - read, i don't have the book) in the Magic Zone's border has quite the profusion of colorful gangs amidst the districts of its shanty town/"burbs" area, even after the recent "gang war meets robot/zombie apocalypse" mess it went through.

Anyway, diabolism-based tattooing and/or body painting/make up is a very nifty little extra to add into the city's already peculiar local culture.