Forums of the Megaverse®

Does rifts ever say where the bugs (xitictic sp?) come from? What I mean is what planet/dimension etc.

Nope.


Daniel Stoker

It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

Mark Hall wrote:It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

This is the way that I have always run them and in fact I have a few worlds in the Three Galaxies that are under Xiticix invasion or are completely Xitformed (great word there Mark I'm adding it to my Palladium Lexicon).

What I wonder is if they just invade through random rifts or do they have means of traveling on their own to new worlds.

Warshield73 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

This is the way that I have always run them and in fact I have a few worlds in the Three Galaxies that are under Xiticix invasion or are completely Xitformed (great word there Mark I'm adding it to my Palladium Lexicon).

What I wonder is if they just invade through random rifts or do they have means of traveling on their own to new worlds.

They have grown spaceships that they use when they have completely converted a planet. Give them time, and they will take Mars and even Xitiform Venus.

Mark Hall wrote:They have grown spaceships that they use when they have completely converted a planet. Give them time, and they will take Mars and even Xitiform Venus.

Population pressure and the assimilation of smaller hives into larger mass-minds reaches a critical mass state that unlocks a new level of abilities, including the ability to create spacecraft?
I figure slower than light craft(maybe a hive dome with an impulse drive), and either hibernation or pre-programmed eggs in stasis....They land on a suitable world, the first to hatch tuck into reserves of suitable food set aside for them, then divvy up into those who hunt for fresh good, and those that take care of the next wave of hatchings.

Or maybe the space-stage Queens hatch a new specialized caste that's virtually all high-powered nervous tissue, and acts like the psi-warpers from the original Mechanics trilogy. They can perform psionic FTL warp jumps, but they consume so much PPE glop that they're very expensive, effort-wise, to maintain. And the strain of jumping quickly burns them out.

Another psionic FTL drive alternative might be the big space-stage mega-hives, when population pressure gets too much, pool their minds and form massive ISP pools and telekinetic gestalts that lob the hive ship into space, but in the process, burns out the brains of the launch-pool members(they get eaten by a remanent population or by rival hives). Once in space, another percentage of the hive population sacrifices themselves to send the core hive ship with its colonizer population FTL to the next suitable target world.

The Rifts have given the Xits a handy form of FTL.

In my imagination, when the Xiticix population gets to a certain level, they start building TK drives into some of their Mushroom Towers, and launch those into space to find new habitable worlds.

Killer Cyborg wrote:In my imagination, when the Xiticix population gets to a certain level, they start building TK drives into some of their Mushroom Towers, and launch those into space to find new habitable worlds.

The multiple chambers would make for a good compartmentalized spacecraft, and the organic or mineralized construction wouldn't show up as metal spacecraft to the techno-sensors of other species.

This thread makes me tangentially wonder where would be a good place on Rifts Earth to shove several hundred-to-thousand Bugs from the Systems Failure setting. I could see attempts to run power lines across the Australian Sea, or maybe something in India. Straight conversion puts them at 85-335 mdc opponents, in a distribution not unlike that of the Xiticix.

Curbludgeon wrote:This thread makes me tangentially wonder where would be a good place on Rifts Earth to shove several hundred-to-thousand Bugs from the Systems Failure setting. I could see attempts to run power lines across the Australian Sea, or maybe something in India. Straight conversion puts them at 85-335 mdc opponents, in a distribution not unlike that of the Xiticix.

New Zealand.

I don't recall if anything was done with it in Australia, but it's physically isolated, modern, state. Have a mixture of bug hives in the cities (Auckland, Christchurch, Wellington, etc.), with Maori resistance in the hinterlands (maybe the Bugs have North Island, and the Maori and free pakeha are largely in the South?) Just spitballing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:In my imagination, when the Xiticix population gets to a certain level, they start building TK drives into some of their Mushroom Towers, and launch those into space to find new habitable worlds.

In the book they say that when Xiticix take control of an entire planet they hit a point of equilibrium were they birth just enough new bugs to keep them going. They never really get population pressure in that sense. Not sure about this anymore. Will need to go through the book again.

Don't get me wrong, I love that idea but they seem to lack the sophistication to do it. My players always had a theory that they started out as a servant race to some magical being that sort of got away and now infest planets all over the Megaverse. Still an interesting idea though. Do we know if Xiticix need an Earth atmosphere to survive? Could we see Xiticix on the moon or something?

I'm pretty sure they need to breath, but I couldn't say for sure until I get home.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:I'm pretty sure they need to breath, but I couldn't say for sure until I get home.


Daniel Stoker

Actually I appear to be full of crap. I went to read the section (A different way of - life on the Xiticix homeworld, pg. 23 WB 23) and what I appear to be remembering was life inside the hive after the XIts take over a planet. Between the hives it can get pretty horrible. I don't have time to really dive into the book right now but I think I just mixed up the results to the hive with the effects to the planet wide Xiticix. The rest of my post I think still holds.

Xitiformed... great, I see that and hear it in my head except instead of hearing Zytiformed I get Zeetee and first thing I think of is baked Ziti. Yuck what species eat baked Xiti

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:In my imagination, when the Xiticix population gets to a certain level, they start building TK drives into some of their Mushroom Towers, and launch those into space to find new habitable worlds.

In the book they say that when Xiticix take control of an entire planet they hit a point of equilibrium were they birth just enough new bugs to keep them going. They never really get population pressure in that sense. Not sure about this anymore. Will need to go through the book again.

Don't get me wrong, I love that idea but they seem to lack the sophistication to do it.

They build and use magic rifles, and they make buildings.
It doesn't need to be sophistication, just instinct.

My players always had a theory that they started out as a servant race to some magical being that sort of got away and now infest planets all over the Megaverse.

Huh. What kind of servants? I could see them being an army or something, but I don't know how good they'd be at anything other than breeding, killing, and constructing their weird buildings.

Still an interesting idea though. Do we know if Xiticix need an Earth atmosphere to survive? Could we see Xiticix on the moon or something?

I'm pretty sure they need to breathe.
IIRC, MDC critters have an advantage in outer space when it comes to resisting the cold and the vacuum, though. I can't find my XI book right now, but I might recall something about them being to hold their breath for a long time? Or maybe that's just any critter with supernatural PE?

I think in order to put bugs on the moon, you'd need to get some small number of the right ones there, in some kind of protected environment--either a human moon base, or a sealed Xit tower. From there, they could tunnel down into the moon, and build towers poking up here or there.
If they adapted their tactics to the environment, figured out some way to make airlocks, they could potentially colonize the moon without being needing atmosphere.
Their green fungus probably produces some oxygen, so with enough of that they'd have O2... but there'd be a lack of air in general, even in underground tunnels and such.
Ultimately, I think they'd need some new TW-like devices.

Xiticix: Space

Space-based hives.

Specially bred warriors, hunters, and workers. Living spaceships that are really just another form of bug.

TW TK FTL. (If that made sense without thinking, turn off the computer. Go outside. Please. )

Xitiformed planets... does Venus's atmosphere do MDC?

I didn’t especially love them in the Star Wars novels, but I could see stealing some ideas from the Yuuzhan Vong (sp?) for this.

honestly, i kinda assumed looting starship troopers for ideas would be the most obvious direction to go for xiticix in spaaaaaaaaace!

Shark_Force wrote:honestly, i kinda assumed looting starship troopers for ideas would be the most obvious direction to go for xiticix in spaaaaaaaaace!

Shhhh! You'll reveal my sources!

Mark Hall wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:honestly, i kinda assumed looting starship troopers for ideas would be the most obvious direction to go for xiticix in spaaaaaaaaace!

Shhhh! You'll reveal my sources!

Gee not Tyranid or Zerg?

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:honestly, i kinda assumed looting starship troopers for ideas would be the most obvious direction to go for xiticix in spaaaaaaaaace!

Shhhh! You'll reveal my sources!

Gee not Tyranid or Zerg?

They didn't have an utterly ridiculous movie.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:In my imagination, when the Xiticix population gets to a certain level, they start building TK drives into some of their Mushroom Towers, and launch those into space to find new habitable worlds.

In the book they say that when Xiticix take control of an entire planet they hit a point of equilibrium were they birth just enough new bugs to keep them going. They never really get population pressure in that sense. Not sure about this anymore. Will need to go through the book again.

Don't get me wrong, I love that idea but they seem to lack the sophistication to do it.

They build and use magic rifles, and they make buildings.
It doesn't need to be sophistication, just instinct.

The buildings are nothing more than mud and MDC spit with no doors or force fields or anything else to indicate they can do something like launch into space. The only weapons of any real sophistication are the Resin Spike, Resin Spitter, and TK Rifle and all of those are just from the Queen. They have no vehicles, not even an equivalent to like a TW flight board or something. No indication they can make any advances. Truthfully this surprised me a lot. When I was using the original Xiticiix from RMB I gave them a lot of homegrown TW gear going so far as to make the queen a sort of Techno-Wizard but that all changed with WB 23.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

My players always had a theory that they started out as a servant race to some magical being that sort of got away and now infest planets all over the Megaverse.

Huh. What kind of servants? I could see them being an army or something, but I don't know how good they'd be at anything other than breeding, killing, and constructing their weird buildings.

We looked at them being similar to the Hive Spawn in Phase World. Some Alien Intelligence or great power took an existing insect species and changed it giving the queens a natural ability to create a few TW weapons. On planets it controls it can direct them. If there master abandons them or they go through a Rift, they are on there own.

If you are trying to conquer or destroy an enemy world Xiticix would be a great army.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Still an interesting idea though. Do we know if Xiticix need an Earth atmosphere to survive? Could we see Xiticix on the moon or something?

I'm pretty sure they need to breathe.
IIRC, MDC critters have an advantage in outer space when it comes to resisting the cold and the vacuum, though. I can't find my XI book right now, but I might recall something about them being to hold their breath for a long time? Or maybe that's just any critter with supernatural PE?

I think in order to put bugs on the moon, you'd need to get some small number of the right ones there, in some kind of protected environment--either a human moon base, or a sealed Xit tower. From there, they could tunnel down into the moon, and build towers poking up here or there.
If they adapted their tactics to the environment, figured out some way to make airlocks, they could potentially colonize the moon without being needing atmosphere.
Their green fungus probably produces some oxygen, so with enough of that they'd have O2... but there'd be a lack of air in general, even in underground tunnels and such.
Ultimately, I think they'd need some new TW-like devices.

I agree with the above accept there is no indication that they can create any new TW.

The problem is there is no indication that they can launch anything into space. No indication that they can target a far off celestial object, and no indication that they can maneuver said object to a new celestial body.

I also agree that they need to breath, we no they need water so really if they were to spread to other planets that would just leave Mars at most, and that is only the areas that are green.

Mark Hall wrote:Xiticix: Space

Space-based hives.

Specially bred warriors, hunters, and workers. Living spaceships that are really just another form of bug.

TW TK FTL. (If that made sense without thinking, turn off the computer. Go outside. Please. )

Xitiformed planets... does Venus's atmosphere do MDC?

I could see this being a great idea for a new variant on the Xiticix (maybe the Gene Plicers / Tech creation) but the Xits on Earth just don't seem up to this.

Venus's atmosphere should not do mega-damage. We can land probes on the surface for short times now so Golden Age tech / MDC materials should make it easier. The Xiticix though would not be able to breath or find enough water to be there.

Voodoolaw wrote:I didn’t especially love them in the Star Wars novels, but I could see stealing some ideas from the Yuuzhan Vong (sp?) for this.

I have never read the books but everything I have learned on Youtube makes them sound more like the Necrons in DB 6 - The Three Glaaxies.

Mark Hall wrote:They didn't have an utterly ridiculous movie.

I would be hard pressed to come up with a movie as ridiculous as this one but you could go animated, Roughnecks: The Starship Troopers Chronicles

One thing I could see is the Xiticix shooting unpowered resin spheres into space loaded with eggs in a special mixture. If it crashes on a suitable planet the eggs hatch, including a few queens and they infest the planet. An unsuspecting ship opens it up and wackiness ensues.

doesn't really jive with the fact that they don't even notice anything above a certain height, iirc.

Warshield73 wrote:Venus's atmosphere should not do mega-damage. We can land probes on the surface for short times now so Golden Age tech / MDC materials should make it easier.

There are several factors to consider with regard to Venus's atmosphere:
-Temperature
-Pressure

The surface temperature is greater than 800deg F, with atmospheric pressure equivalent to ~1km Ocean Depth.

Per WB7 (pg10) we know MDC structures can have an Ocean Depth tolerance of less than 1km. Though it is also possible for an MDC structure to reach a depth of 3.2km. These are human limitations and our technology, but it would suggest that the Pressure could potentially do damage. It just depends on the ocean depth tolerance of an Xit. (Off hand I don't know what it is).

Per RUE pg261, CS EBA suits provide protection upto 300deg Centigrade (which works out to 572deg F). This may or may not be an issue. I don't know off hand when heat starts doing MD, but it would be outside the design tolerance of EBA suits, and 'bots and PA (400deg Centigrade, or 752deg F). The Xits are living beings, so might have more "open ended tolerances" to heat.

Warshield73 wrote:One thing I could see is the Xiticix shooting unpowered resin spheres into space loaded with eggs in a special mixture. If it crashes on a suitable planet the eggs hatch, including a few queens and they infest the planet. An unsuspecting ship opens it up and wackiness ensues.

I can see them using something like this for terrestrial expansion, with space travel being an unintended consequence. Though the space travel method is going to be very slow and hit/miss, but would be possible.

Though they might simply just open/find random rifts to travel to other worlds. Presumably they traveled via a Rift to Earth, it might have been a random rifts connecting Earth to what ever world they came from, then again it could also have been an intentional random rift they created (and undocumented ability to date if it is AFAIK).

ShadowLogan wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:Venus's atmosphere should not do mega-damage. We can land probes on the surface for short times now so Golden Age tech / MDC materials should make it easier.

There are several factors to consider with regard to Venus's atmosphere:
-Temperature
-Pressure

The surface temperature is greater than 800deg F, with atmospheric pressure equivalent to ~1km Ocean Depth.

Per WB7 (pg10) we know MDC structures can have an Ocean Depth tolerance of less than 1km. Though it is also possible for an MDC structure to reach a depth of 3.2km. These are human limitations and our technology, but it would suggest that the Pressure could potentially do damage. It just depends on the ocean depth tolerance of an Xit. (Off hand I don't know what it is).

Per RUE pg261, CS EBA suits provide protection upto 300deg Centigrade (which works out to 572deg F). This may or may not be an issue. I don't know off hand when heat starts doing MD, but it would be outside the design tolerance of EBA suits, and 'bots and PA (400deg Centigrade, or 752deg F). The Xits are living beings, so might have more "open ended tolerances" to heat.

I absolutely agree with you here. Whenever the subject of colonies or monsters on Venus has come up I always said that it is unlikely to have any or at least very, very few. I was answering a very specific question and I hold to it that Venus's atmosphere does not do MDC damage.

To me planets like Venus have two core questions: 1) Can you set up a base on the planet? I think the answer for anyone with Golden Age tech is yes. - 2) Why would you? The answer for this is really dependent but a few would be Scientific, secret research base (is there a better place to hide something in the system?) but for most individuals, corporations and groups its just not worth it.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:One thing I could see is the Xiticix shooting unpowered resin spheres into space loaded with eggs in a special mixture. If it crashes on a suitable planet the eggs hatch, including a few queens and they infest the planet. An unsuspecting ship opens it up and wackiness ensues.

I can see them using something like this for terrestrial expansion, with space travel being an unintended consequence. Though the space travel method is going to be very slow and hit/miss, but would be possible.

Like I said they lack the skills necessary to make this a common thing. I personally don't even think it happens.

ShadowLogan wrote:Though they might simply just open/find random rifts to travel to other worlds. Presumably they traveled via a Rift to Earth, it might have been a random rifts connecting Earth to what ever world they came from, then again it could also have been an intentional random rift they created (and undocumented ability to date if it is AFAIK).

This goes to my original question. We know that the Xiticix arrive by rift, this is the only method we know of in canon. We know that they can arrive by random rifts but can they control them in some way. I don't think so but it is way more likely for them than some sort of space travel.

Mark Hall wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:honestly, i kinda assumed looting starship troopers for ideas would be the most obvious direction to go for xiticix in spaaaaaaaaace!

Shhhh! You'll reveal my sources!

Gee not Tyranid or Zerg?

They didn't have an utterly ridiculous movie.

Nope they have utterly rediculous games.

Warshield73 wrote:I was answering a very specific question and I hold to it that Venus's atmosphere does not do MDC damage.

I guess the questions comes down to does depth tolerance equate to taking (mega) damage and what amount of heat causes MD..

IMHO it does since you are deforming the MDC structure you are taking damage. Can you make an MDC structure able to handle the pressure? Sure, but not all MDC structures can, and off hand I don't know what the depth tolerance for the Xits are.

Warshield73 wrote:To me planets like Venus have two core questions: 1) Can you set up a base on the planet? I think the answer for anyone with Golden Age tech is yes. - 2) Why would you? The answer for this is really dependent but a few would be Scientific, secret research base (is there a better place to hide something in the system?) but for most individuals, corporations and groups its just not worth it.

A surface base on Venus would be very unlikely, even with MDC tech. While pressure would be manageable, the ambient heat would not be (I don't know of any MDC vehicle w/heat tolerances required). Plus the propulsive energy required to launch from the surface of Venus would be comparable to Earth. This would require a pretty big launch system if they are using chemical rockets, nuclear systems can reduce the size, how much depends on which type.

A hypothetical base on Venus it likely is either a space station in orbit or "Cloud City"-type base (avoids the issue of pressure and heat) floating in the upper atmosphere.

Warshield73 wrote:Like I said they lack the skills necessary to make this a common thing. I personally don't even think it happens.

I agree I don't know of anything that suggests they even do such a thing, for them to travel in space by the method you suggested IMHO is best explained as an unintended consequence of the method being used for expansion on the planet they are on.

I suppose a more likely explanation using this approach is that someone(s) attempt to deal with their infestation via comet/asteroid impact (or big explosion) and some eggs get blasted into space (ala Martian metorites discovered in Antarctica).

Warshield73 wrote: there is no indication that they can create any new TW.

It's not about TW stuff that's new to the bugs.
It's about TW stuff that's new to US, the players and GMs.
Like how when FoM came out, and suddenly there was all this new TW gear... most of which wasn't new in the game's timeline.

But also, there's no indication that the bugs CAN'T make new TW inventions.
For all we know, Resin Spitters and Spike Guns were invented in the last 50 years, on Rifts Earth.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Warshield73 wrote: there is no indication that they can create any new TW.

It's not about TW stuff that's new to the bugs.
It's about TW stuff that's new to US, the players and GMs.
Like how when FoM came out, and suddenly there was all this new TW gear... most of which wasn't new in the game's timeline.

You actually prove my point here. In FoM we see many individuals and groups with defined abilities and skills to make new and different TW weapons/equipment. So if you were to create a new TW item for them and have it available that would definitely fit those parties.

Pg 66 of WB 23 describes the process as basically instinctual. No skills involved.

Killer Cyborg wrote:But also, there's no indication that the bugs CAN'T make new TW inventions.
For all we know, Resin Spitters and Spike Guns were invented in the last 50 years, on Rifts Earth.

When something is new weapon in most books they are described that way, none of the Xiticix weapons are described that way. It also says nothing about these weapons only being available to Xiticix in other Dimensions.

If you were to create a new vehicle or weapon for the Kitani or the CS that fits those characters. They have the skills and a noted history of innovation. There is nothing in the Xiticix description that gives any indication that they have that skill. There is definitely nothing that would indicate that they can turn one of there towers into a starship. I think that would be cool beyond belief but it doesn't fit with the creatures in canon.

Now the great thing about pen and paper gaming is that you can change these groups anyway you want. My version of ARCHIE and Hagan in my games are radically different than the one in ithe book. I love my version and I will always use it but I don't pretend that it fits with canon. People who want can do the same with the Xiticix.

Just as a point here we know of at least one form of Mutant Xiticix from the HLS
Brain? Brain? Silly human, Brains are for queens.
Rifts Index One page 89
-This demonstrates that we can see at least one mutation of Xitixc
-This mutant version is intelligent enough to comprehend humanoids enough to program them realistically
-This suggests that there is likely far more to the Xicitic ecology than just the semi-sentient bugs we see in WB 23

While it doesn't answer much either way we can also consult
From Other Worlds
Rifts Adventure Book page 47
In which they are at least aware enough to understand
-what a rift is,
-that it is being artificially created
-by a (TW) device
-That they need people and parts to fix it

Now it is possible to argue that neither of these is canon anymore.
But I am not aware of any official statement decanonizing them and since they are published official material they would seem to be canon. Just because the Author(s) of the Rifter article that became WB23 chose to ignore the previously published material about the Xicitic doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Warshield73 wrote: there is no indication that they can create any new TW.

It's not about TW stuff that's new to the bugs.
It's about TW stuff that's new to US, the players and GMs.
Like how when FoM came out, and suddenly there was all this new TW gear... most of which wasn't new in the game's timeline.

You actually prove my point here. In FoM we see many individuals and groups with defined abilities and skills to make new and different TW weapons/equipment. So if you were to create a new TW item for them and have it available that would definitely fit those parties.

No idea how you think that fits your point.

But if you want another example, spike guns, resin spitters, and entire subspecies of Xiticix didn't exist and were not hinted at until XI came out.
Yet once those books came out, they were canon, and it wasn't indicated that the spike guns and such were only invented at the point in game time right before the book came out.
Palladium could just as easily write a Xiticix In Spaaaaaace book that follows the same pattern of introducing new bug devices that weren't previously hinted at.
And new bug species.
Heck, they could introduce a specific category of bugs who's main job is to design and build spaceships (or TW artillery, or any other toys), with unique powers and a slew of new devices, and that wouldn't be much weirder than what they did in XI.

Pg 66 of WB 23 describes the process as basically instinctual. No skills involved.

Right. As in, "when the xiticix population on a planet gets to be x amount, the queens--unable to further grow their hives due to the sheer number of other xiticix--instinctively start construction on a space ship."

Killer Cyborg wrote:But also, there's no indication that the bugs CAN'T make new TW inventions.
For all we know, Resin Spitters and Spike Guns were invented in the last 50 years, on Rifts Earth.

When something is new weapon in most books they are described that way,[/quote]

50 years isn't really new, but also I'd be curious to see your general support for that claim.

It also says nothing about these weapons only being available to Xiticix in other Dimensions.

If they were invented on Rifts Earthy, why WOULD the weapons only be available to Xiticix in other Dimensions?

If you were to create a new vehicle or weapon for the Kitani or the CS that fits those characters. They have the skills and a noted history of innovation. There is nothing in the Xiticix description that gives any indication that they have that skill.

They're bugs that instinctively create magical firearms.
It is implausible to me that would happen if they weren't capable of inventing things on some level. You don't EVOLVE to create magical firearms out of your own spit.

Or you could go with your (IIRC) idea that they were created by somebody else as a slave race or super army.
If their inventor created them with the capability to create TW Guns, why would it be impossible to have created them with the capability and instinct to build spaceships under certain situations?

eliakon wrote:Just as a point here we know of at least one form of Mutant Xiticix from the HLS
Brain? Brain? Silly human, Brains are for queens.
Rifts Index One page 89
-This demonstrates that we can see at least one mutation of Xitixc
-This mutant version is intelligent enough to comprehend humanoids enough to program them realistically
-This suggests that there is likely far more to the Xicitic ecology than just the semi-sentient bugs we see in WB 23

While it doesn't answer much either way we can also consult
From Other Worlds
Rifts Adventure Book page 47
In which they are at least aware enough to understand
-what a rift is,
-that it is being artificially created
-by a (TW) device
-That they need people and parts to fix it

Now it is possible to argue that neither of these is canon anymore.
But I am not aware of any official statement decanonizing them and since they are published official material they would seem to be canon. Just because the Author(s) of the Rifter article that became WB23 chose to ignore the previously published material about the Xicitic doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Good points.

Sorry, I'm going to take this out of order just to make responses make sense.

eliakon wrote:Now it is possible to argue that neither of these is canon anymore.
But I am not aware of any official statement decanonizing them and since they are published official material they would seem to be canon. Just because the Author(s) of the Rifter article that became WB23 chose to ignore the previously published material about the Xicitic doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I'm not sure about this either. The Xiticix first appearance in Rifts is in RMB and we know that that information is superseded by WB23 so since both of these sources predate WB23 it would be likely that the new source has supremacy, I mean that is what we see in all the other books, but I agree with you there is nothing specific saying they are not canon.

Now, I have never treated any of these sources (Magic of Palladium, Index 1 & 2, Adventure guide) as canon. To me they were kind of a precursor to the Rifter but now that you bring that up there is nothing saying that, it was just my assumption.

eliakon wrote:Just as a point here we know of at least one form of Mutant Xiticix from the HLS
Brain? Brain? Silly human, Brains are for queens.
Rifts Index One page 89
-This demonstrates that we can see at least one mutation of Xitixc
-This mutant version is intelligent enough to comprehend humanoids enough to program them realistically
-This suggests that there is likely far more to the Xicitic ecology than just the semi-sentient bugs we see in WB 23

I think you missed an important part of your own post - "mutant" - this is not the norm and it really demonstrates that this is probably not canon.

The Xiticix Invasion book is set up so that you can run your PCs through a war with the Xiticix. It not only gives you 80 pages of new or highly revised information on the Xiticix but it gives you information about how Lazlo is fighting this war, the response of the CS, and psi-stalker tribes. If there was a Xiticix queen, in canon, that could do what was listed in that adventure I think it would be in this book for the GM to take into account for his adventures.

eliakon wrote:While it doesn't answer much either way we can also consult
From Other Worlds
Rifts Adventure Book page 47
In which they are at least aware enough to understand
-what a rift is,
-that it is being artificially created
-by a (TW) device
-That they need people and parts to fix it

WB 23, pg 77 wrote:The Xiticix rarely use weapons not of Xiticix manufacture, meaning they will never use human or D-Bee energy weapons, but, in a pinch, may use a melee weapon such as a Vibro-Blade or magic weapon. However, once the crisis that forced them to use a non-Xiticix weapon is over, they will discard it.

It also makes it clear in other parts that they do not understand or appreciate human technology for what it is and will often just leave it alone if it is turned off / not making any noise or generating any heat.

If the information from Other Worlds was once canon once I think we can say it no longer is.

Now just to refocus what we were talking about here. No one was saying that the Xiticix were going to take TW made from other people and fly it to space. What is being said is that the Xits can seal up one of there towers, put some sort of TK engine on it, and launch it into space. That is what I am saying has no source in canon.

Warshield73 wrote:Now the great thing about pen and paper gaming is that you can change these groups anyway you want. My version of ARCHIE and Hagan in my games are radically different than the one in ithe book. I love my version and I will always use it but I don't pretend that it fits with canon. People who want can do the same with the Xiticix.

I really want to reemphasize this point. It is your game, make all the changes you want to it just don't try to pretend that it is canon or has any basis there.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Warshield73 wrote: there is no indication that they can create any new TW.

It's not about TW stuff that's new to the bugs.
It's about TW stuff that's new to US, the players and GMs.
Like how when FoM came out, and suddenly there was all this new TW gear... most of which wasn't new in the game's timeline.

You actually prove my point here. In FoM we see many individuals and groups with defined abilities and skills to make new and different TW weapons/equipment. So if you were to create a new TW item for them and have it available that would definitely fit those parties.

No idea how you think that fits your point.

I'm sorry I thought I was pretty specific. In FoM every NPC or OCC that is capable of making TW equipment has the skills, powers and spells listed. Those things are all missing from the Xiticix. The queen has no mechanical or electrical skills and no magic knowledge.

WB23, Pg. 66 - Elder Queens wrote:Make TW Weapons (special): Only the Queens, with the help of the Diggers, psionically (and magically?) make the long range weapons, including the TK rifle, TK pistol, Spikes Spitters, and Resin Spitter rifle. Nobody knows how this process works but assumes it involves psionics and perhaps the syphoning of magic energy. In many regards, these are crude Techno-Wizard weapons. No human or D-Bee has ever witnessed the creation process. Presumably, only the Queens can (magically or psionically?) create the firing mechanism and P.P.E. power source while the Diggers make the physical weapon.

The important part of this description is that they are crude and it specifically delineates the weapons that can be created. If you read the descriptions in the books these weapons are barely techno-wizardry and it may simply be that they are so alien the only way we can relate to it is as a form of TW.

Killer Cyborg wrote:But if you want another example, spike guns, resin spitters, and entire subspecies of Xiticix didn't exist and were not hinted at until XI came out.
Yet once those books came out, they were canon, and it wasn't indicated that the spike guns and such were only invented at the point in game time right before the book came out.
Palladium could just as easily write a Xiticix In Spaaaaaace book that follows the same pattern of introducing new bug devices that weren't previously hinted at.
And new bug species.
Heck, they could introduce a specific category of bugs who's main job is to design and build spaceships (or TW artillery, or any other toys), with unique powers and a slew of new devices, and that wouldn't be much weirder than what they did in XI.

I am really not sure what your point is at all. Yes the Xiticix were expanded greatly. That's what happens when they go from 3 pages in the very first Rifts book to 80+ pages 10 years and several rules changes later. They never hinted at it before because they never hinted at anything before. The Xiticix were just a unique threat that they could put in RMB that they figured they would get to later. By the arguments you are making someone could say it is perfectly canon to say that Joseph Prosek can shoot lightning out of his but because his description has changed over time and it doesn't specifically say he can't.

If you were making these arguments before the Xiticix got there own book, before they went from 3 to 83 pages then I would say it is a little out there but yeah could be but now sorry no.

It's too long to post here but read the "Overview" on page 8-11. Kevin really goes into what the whole purpose of the Xiticiix are and how they are meant to be completely alien.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pg 66 of WB 23 describes the process as basically instinctual. No skills involved.

Right. As in, "when the xiticix population on a planet gets to be x amount, the queens--unable to further grow their hives due to the sheer number of other xiticix--instinctively start construction on a space ship."

In this case you are directly contradicted by the material in the book. "A Different way of - life on the Xiticix homeworld" page 23 describes, in great detail, what happens on a planet once the Xiticix establish dominance and no mentions of launching into space.

Also this

WB23, Page 8 wrote:Of concern to dimension spanning creatures is the fear that the Xiticix might eventually invade other planets; probably by accident, just as they accidentally came to Rifts Earth. Low-tech and unpopulated worlds will be especially vulnerable, because the Xiticix will be free to effectively invade, infest, expand and conquer unchallenged. Basically, that is what is happening on Rifts Earth.

Which clearly says the Xiticix came to Earth by accident. I found this a few weeks ago when I wanted to answer my own question if the Xiticix could open Rifts themselves, the answer being no.

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:But also, there's no indication that the bugs CAN'T make new TW inventions.
For all we know, Resin Spitters and Spike Guns were invented in the last 50 years, on Rifts Earth.

When something is new weapon in most books they are described that way,

50 years isn't really new, but also I'd be curious to see your general support for that claim.
You can start with the Original SB1 and look at the description of the Wilks 457 which describes it as a new, last few years. You can look at both Northern Gun books which describe some weapons as being older and others as recent releases. This is not always true but it is often in there.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:It also says nothing about these weapons only being available to Xiticix in other Dimensions.

If they were invented on Rifts Earthy, why WOULD the weapons only be available to Xiticix in other Dimensions?

If it was invented on Rifts Earth than Xiticix in other dimensions could not have it since they do not travel or trade between dimensions. Also, for that matter they probably wouldn't be in all the Rifts Earth hives as they do not work together, they are competitors who kill each other as often as anyone else.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:If you were to create a new vehicle or weapon for the Kitani or the CS that fits those characters. They have the skills and a noted history of innovation. There is nothing in the Xiticix description that gives any indication that they have that skill.

They're bugs that instinctively create magical firearms.
It is implausible to me that would happen if they weren't capable of inventing things on some level. You don't EVOLVE to create magical firearms out of your own spit.

Or you could go with your (IIRC) idea that they were created by somebody else as a slave race or super army.
If their inventor created them with the capability to create TW Guns, why would it be impossible to have created them with the capability and instinct to build spaceships under certain situations?

Yeah with creatures of magic or supernatural beings, however these are classified, evolution is sort of sidelined. If they developed in a magic rich environment then by the rules of Palladium Megaverse anything goes. Also I go back to my earlier point you view these as actual TW weapons when the book clearly says that they are crude TW creations and more on instinct. If that word wasn't used over and over and over again in the descriptions I would say that you might have a point and it could be plausible. But with there ability to create a very limited number of TW weapons (remember the melee weapons are not magical in any way), it being described as instinct, and there arrival being an accident then I have to say no. Turning a tower into a spaceship and launching it into space would be way out of character.

Whatever the books say though it's your universe have at it. As much as I love PB and all the books my favorite parts of my Rifts Megaverse is what I added or changed. I will never use the straight book version of ARCHIE and Hagan, I like my version of Camelot way more than there's, and my New Navy (which was ripped apart by civil war caused by the Nightlords) is too good to give up. But as much as I love all of them, I don't pretend it fits the canon.

Have fun.

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:But also, there's no indication that the bugs CAN'T make new TW inventions.
For all we know, Resin Spitters and Spike Guns were invented in the last 50 years, on Rifts Earth.

When something is new weapon in most books they are described that way,

50 years isn't really new, but also I'd be curious to see your general support for that claim.

You can start with the Original SB1 and look at the description of the Wilks 457 which describes it as a new, last few years. You can look at both Northern Gun books which describe some weapons as being older and others as recent releases. This is not always true but it is often in there.

And yet many of the power armor suits that are revealed to only be a few decades old (so less than 50 or so years) are not described as "new"
So your claim seems to be "anything that is a few years old say four or five years will be stated that way... except for the Xicitic who will use the term new for up to a century or so"

Can you show anything that is older than 10 year that is called "new" and has its "newness" described that way?
Something that is 20 years old?
30?
50?

i'd consider any description of the xiticix weapons as being crude to be pretty sketchy. crude in appearance perhaps, but they're anything but crude in performance. as TW weapons go, their TK rifles feature excellent range, respectable damage, high efficiency, and excellent payload for example. the resin gun is quite remarkable as well in its own way. the various spiked weapons are short range as i recall, but are capable of volley firing as well if i'm not mistaken... i'm not even sure there are examples of that elsewhere, though i would presume techno-wizardry is capable (in all likelihood it isn't done in conventional TW weaponry mostly because energy storage is crazy expensive and most volley fire would be done by storing multiple shots, whereas xiticix can just make it out of their spit).

give me a choice between a xiticix TK rifle and any of the techno-wizardry TK weapons made by actual techno-wizards, and as far as performance is concerned i'm going to take the xiticix weapon every single time.

Shark_Force wrote:i'd consider any description of the xiticix weapons as being crude to be pretty sketchy. crude in appearance perhaps, but they're anything but crude in performance. as TW weapons go, their TK rifles feature excellent range, respectable damage, high efficiency, and excellent payload for example. the resin gun is quite remarkable as well in its own way. the various spiked weapons are short range as i recall, but are capable of volley firing as well if i'm not mistaken... i'm not even sure there are examples of that elsewhere, though i would presume techno-wizardry is capable (in all likelihood it isn't done in conventional TW weaponry mostly because energy storage is crazy expensive and most volley fire would be done by storing multiple shots, whereas xiticix can just make it out of their spit).

give me a choice between a xiticix TK rifle and any of the techno-wizardry TK weapons made by actual techno-wizards, and as far as performance is concerned i'm going to take the xiticix weapon every single time.

I would tend to agree with you on the performance of the TK rifle.

I think crude comes from its construction. A regular TK gun requires opals, red zircon, and turquoise but the book indicates that the diggers make the weapon and then the queen creates the firing mechanisms. No costs are given and no other resources are listed. Again, the wording indicates that TW is just the only way that humans and most d-bees can understand their weapons. The book is pretty specific that a regular Techno Wizard cannot create these weapons, only a Xit queen can so the process is depicted as more organic and instinctual as opposed to technical.

Warshield73 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

This is the way that I have always run them and in fact I have a few worlds in the Three Galaxies that are under Xiticix invasion or are completely Xitformed (great word there Mark I'm adding it to my Palladium Lexicon).

So those world have gone to Xit?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

SolCannibal wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

This is the way that I have always run them and in fact I have a few worlds in the Three Galaxies that are under Xiticix invasion or are completely Xitformed (great word there Mark I'm adding it to my Palladium Lexicon).

So those world have gone to Xit?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Something about that joke bugs me.

Mark Hall wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

This is the way that I have always run them and in fact I have a few worlds in the Three Galaxies that are under Xiticix invasion or are completely Xitformed (great word there Mark I'm adding it to my Palladium Lexicon).

So those world have gone to Xit?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Something about that joke bugs me.

Yeah, too much of that and one day we are all buggered.

SolCannibal wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

This is the way that I have always run them and in fact I have a few worlds in the Three Galaxies that are under Xiticix invasion or are completely Xitformed (great word there Mark I'm adding it to my Palladium Lexicon).

So those world have gone to Xit?

Yeah, my players did all the jokes 15 years ago when they encountered the first Xiticix world?
Its gone to Xit.
It's a Xit storm.
We're in the Xit now.

Every pun, every joke done to death.

Warshield73 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

This is the way that I have always run them and in fact I have a few worlds in the Three Galaxies that are under Xiticix invasion or are completely Xitformed (great word there Mark I'm adding it to my Palladium Lexicon).

So those world have gone to Xit?

Yeah, my players did all the jokes 15 years ago when they encountered the first Xiticix world?
Its gone to Xit.
It's a Xit storm.
We're in the Xit now.

Every pun, every joke done to death.

Quite the Xit-y situation to be in as a GM with a story to run, no?

Interesting ideas. If there is a way for them to learn/develop spell casting it would be way easier to just open dimensional portals.

Mlp7029 wrote:Interesting ideas. If there is a way for them to learn/develop spell casting it would be way easier to just open dimensional portals.

Well, they are able to make one kind of TW-weapon at least - that could work as an excuse/springboard for this kind of thing and more, i guess.

Maybe some sort of brain bug, who could learn magic.

SolCannibal wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:It's possible that they, themselves, don't know. They seem to travel from dimension to dimension, possibly world to world, completely Xitiform wherever they are, with new colonies doing the same thing wherever they wind up.

This is the way that I have always run them and in fact I have a few worlds in the Three Galaxies that are under Xiticix invasion or are completely Xitformed (great word there Mark I'm adding it to my Palladium Lexicon).

So those world have gone to Xit?

Yeah, my players did all the jokes 15 years ago when they encountered the first Xiticix world?
Its gone to Xit.
It's a Xit storm.
We're in the Xit now.

Every pun, every joke done to death.

Quite the Xit-y situation to be in as a GM with a story to run, no?

Yeah, that joke alone should earn you a special place in hell.

Warshield73 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:
Quite the Xit-y situation to be in as a GM with a story to run, no?

Yeah, that joke alone should earn you a special place in hell.

Such pun-y attempts at humor are a hell to bear.
But more on specifics - Hades, Dyval, Nightlands, what would you expect or prefer?

SolCannibal wrote:

Mlp7029 wrote:Interesting ideas. If there is a way for them to learn/develop spell casting it would be way easier to just open dimensional portals.

Well, they are able to make one kind of TW-weapon at least - that could work as an excuse/springboard for this kind of thing and more, i guess.

I still maintain that the Xiticix don't "know" how to make any kind of "TW". The instinctively make a weapon that humans understand as TW. Now this doesn't mean that they won't develop anything new but it does, IMHO, make it less likely.

One thing I just thought of as I was looking up stats on their weapons is "how do they fight vampires, werewolves, and other magical beings with special damage rules?"

I don't believe the TK guns would hurt them and none of the melee weapons are magical so how can they hurt them. I did a quick review of the bugs skills and none of them even have a lore skill.

Mark Hall wrote:Maybe some sort of brain bug, who could learn magic.

I did this using a Gene Splicer. In my game the Rolla-Morden hive was taken over by a Gene Splicer that set up under the hive and controlled it by controlling the queen. He did this for more than 10 years using the Xits to help him gather specimens in addition to experimenting on them. I admit when I did this I was watching way to much Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles (I even had a Sea King named The Valley Forge that the players were going to operate from) so I had plasma bugs as giant artillery and everything. I used the psi powers from the mutant animals in South America 1 & 2 as baselines and create Xits with massive powers.

What the players were going to find out was that the GS accidentally created a young queen with near human intelligence who learned magic over a period of years. She then forced the GS to create a group of infertile females who could learn magic and tech, brain bugs.

Never got a chance to run the whole thing but the players who did the first part enjoyed it. If I ever have a chance to run a long term campaign again I might use it.