Forums of the Megaverse®

Has anyone smashed these two games together into one setting before? If so, how well did it work and what tweaks did you have to make? I can see this mash up working very well, and I can see where some of the odd pieces might rub up against each other.

Also, would it be better to try to use Nightbane with the first or second edition of Beyond the Supernatural? Looking at the original publication dates it seems that it was put out closer to the first edition. Which, on that note, would it really make any difference since the system itself hasn't really changed all that much?

Thanks in advance,
Captain Nibbz

Yes. They actually work quite well together. I am also fairly sure Mr. Lucifer has used them together as well.

Mr. Jays wrote:Yes. They actually work quite well together. I am also fairly sure Mr. Lucifer has used them together as well.

This is good to hear. I'm working on throwing something together that takes place in the 1920's and I want to use a lot of elements from both of the settings (and some elements from Dead Reign as well now that I'm thinking about it). On the surface they seem like they should honestly be supplements of the same game rather than different settings in a lot of ways. I'm pretty excited to see what all I can harvest from both.

The main concern would likely be with balance depending on the nature of the game. An average nightbane in Morphus form has, before including any physical skills, 28 HP and 100 SDC, with a Supernatural PS of 20.5, PE, and SPD of 20.5 and a PP of 16.5, and the equivalent of HtH Martial Arts with an extra attack per round. Even randomly rolled morphus can then send those totals much higher (I remember a guy who rolled a bizzare character for the morphus and ended up with a centauroid scorpion with biomechanical armor, crystaline growths and the bones stigmata (among others that I don't recall, since he rolled 4 characteristics on the Nightbane Characteristics table); he had nearly 800 SDC in Morphus form!).

Now, in some games those kind of stats next to BTS PCCs would completely skew things. In others they wouldn't.

Would be interesting to rule if a nightbane ally entrring their morphus would trigger an increase in available ISP for the PCCs.

dreicunan wrote: Would be interesting to rule if a nightbane ally entrring their morphus would trigger an increase in available ISP for the PCCs.

If one of my players decides to roll up a Nightbane, I am 100% stealing this idea. I really love the idea that their Morphus would trigger that. I would probably play it up as being a minor threat (x2 multiplier) at most though. That way it could be used strategically without giving the characters too insane of a boost every time they enter into combat . . .

This has me thinking now . . .

First question: Is this a BTS game with Nightlords in it or a Nightbane game with BTS themes. If it is BTS with Nightlords in it then balance is going to be a problem as the minions pf the Nightlords are seriously tough and just one hound can cut through a party of regular humans without breaking a sweat.

If you run the Nightbane with BTS themes you could just use Nightbane OCCs. There are human mages, psychics, and soldiers OCCs in especially the first 3 Nightbane books that are all suitable for a BTS style game.

Just a few thoughts

dreicunan wrote:The main concern would likely be with balance depending on the nature of the game. An average nightbane in Morphus form has, before including any physical skills, 28 HP and 100 SDC, with a Supernatural PS of 20.5, PE, and SPD of 20.5

PE 20 or 21 gives a nice +3 to save vs magic on top of the +4 they inherently enjoy in Morphus, meaning it'll probably take a couple castings of the 10th level spell "Bind Nightbane" (p 144) until it takes, but once it does, forcing them into facade for at least 2 hours is a pretty nice balancer if you can lure some into a 400ft diameter circle.

I believe Nightbane qualify as supernatural beings in morphus, which means you could possibly keep them back using Protection Circle: Simple? Pg 143 only mentions vampires/elementals/Hounds/Hunters/Nightlords as being greater beings. Those who aren't listed (Night Princes, Nightbane) might be lesser beings.

Though it does seem kinda odd that Hounds are somehow greater than lesser beings, but it is what it is.

If PC:Simple didn't work, PC:Superior would since it works on ALL supernatural beings.

Then, if you shift to Facade to get into the circle (seems like it might work) your save vs magic would lower and make you vulnerable to 'Bind Nightbane' from the Night Priest / evil sorcerer / etc. Of course who is vulnerable since he can't rely on supernatural helpers to be in that area.

Nightbane also do not appear to have any inherent bonus to save vs. possession... they'd be just as vulnerable as your average muggle! Even the Nightbane Sorcerer (p118) only gets a mere +2 to save compared to the +4 the normal Sorcerer OCC (p116) gets.

That seems something very valuable to keep in mind.... Nightbane would be #1 priority targets for those using Control/Enslave Entity (also 10th level on p144) to send Possessing Entities against the group. If they're able to possess a nightbane in Morphus and keep control of the body while it's in morphus, that could make it really hard to hold them down to do an exorcism ceremony!

last i checked, nightbane are immune to mind control.

Shark_Force wrote:last i checked, nightbane are immune to mind control.

With the specific exception of the spell "Bind Nightspawn"
It is the classic "specific text vs general text"
The RCC may grant blanket immunity... but the spell specifically states that it works on Nightbane/Nightspawn because that is the entire existence of the spell.
Ruling that they are immune to the spell would require stating that the game designers did not intended to write the spell in the first place!

It is sort of how Atlantians are immune to transformation...except that they can be transformed into Tattoo Men.


Anything that states that it is a specific exemption to a general rule is, by the nature of how exemptions work not bound by the rule it is an exemption to!

eliakon wrote:Anything that states that it is a specific exemption to a general rule is, by the nature of how exemptions work not bound by the rule it is an exemption to!

Well said!

eliakon wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:last i checked, nightbane are immune to mind control.

With the specific exception of the spell "Bind Nightspawn"
It is the classic "specific text vs general text"
The RCC may grant blanket immunity... but the spell specifically states that it works on Nightbane/Nightspawn because that is the entire existence of the spell.
Ruling that they are immune to the spell would require stating that the game designers did not intended to write the spell in the first place!

It is sort of how Atlantians are immune to transformation...except that they can be transformed into Tattoo Men.


Anything that states that it is a specific exemption to a general rule is, by the nature of how exemptions work not bound by the rule it is an exemption to!

sure, but to complain that nightbane "only" get a small bonus (in particular compared to regular sorcerers) to save against mind control is disingenuous. nightbane have a bonus of *infinity* against the vast majority of mind control effects that exist. i rather suspect that the average non-nightbane sorcerer would make the trade gladly to be immune to everything except for a rare hyper-specialized effect that has been specially designed to get past their immunity, and let the nightbane have the extra +2 bonus to save, if you were to offer them that chance.

Shark_Force wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:last i checked, nightbane are immune to mind control.

With the specific exception of the spell "Bind Nightspawn"
It is the classic "specific text vs general text"
The RCC may grant blanket immunity... but the spell specifically states that it works on Nightbane/Nightspawn because that is the entire existence of the spell.
Ruling that they are immune to the spell would require stating that the game designers did not intended to write the spell in the first place!

It is sort of how Atlantians are immune to transformation...except that they can be transformed into Tattoo Men.


Anything that states that it is a specific exemption to a general rule is, by the nature of how exemptions work not bound by the rule it is an exemption to!

sure, but to complain that nightbane "only" get a small bonus (in particular compared to regular sorcerers) to save against mind control is disingenuous. nightbane have a bonus of *infinity* against the vast majority of mind control effects that exist. i rather suspect that the average non-nightbane sorcerer would make the trade gladly to be immune to everything except for a rare hyper-specialized effect that has been specially designed to get past their immunity, and let the nightbane have the extra +2 bonus to save, if you were to offer them that chance.

Oh heck yeah.
And more to the point... that means that they are +2 to save against the one attack that is designed to work uniquely to them.
Which is pretty impressive in and of itself!
I mean seriously that is +2 vs Kryptonite! My hats of to them!
Oh, and they ALSO get to stack on their out of this world bonus vs magic since its a spell.

I was just pointing out that this one spell could actually (sorta kinda in a limited way) affect Nightbane.

Shark_Force wrote:last i checked, nightbane are immune to mind control.

Possession is not mind control. It bypasses the mind and puts a foreign mind in control of the body.

eliakon wrote:With the specific exception of the spell "Bind Nightspawn"
It is the classic "specific text vs general text"
The RCC may grant blanket immunity... but the spell specifically states that it works on Nightbane/Nightspawn because that is the entire existence of the spell.
Ruling that they are immune to the spell would require stating that the game designers did not intended to write the spell in the first place!

Another take would be that pg 144 is more "body control" than "mind control". That's why the control is only partial. You're basically doing one of the following:
1) preventing them from doing the Becoming to go Facade>Morphus
2) preventing "unbecoming" to return to Facade
3) paralyzing their body
4) forcing them to walk out of an area

That's simply enough that it could just by bypassing the mind and wielding their body like a puppet.

unless you're arguing that a being can possess a nightbane but cannot make it do anything while doing so (controlling them would involve getting the mind out of the picture, and that doesn't work by default), their save vs possession is likewise pretty irrelevant in the majority of circumstances.

unless an effect very specifically gets past their immunity (as a spell that controls nightbane must, for example), it doesn't get past their immunity.

so again: broadly speaking, nightbanes are doing just fine on that front. better than most people, who will actually need to pass saving throws to resist the vast majority of mind control effects that nightbane are simply immune to.

Shark_Force wrote:unless you're arguing that a being can possess a nightbane but cannot make it do anything while doing so (controlling them would involve getting the mind out of the picture, and that doesn't work by default), their save vs possession is likewise pretty irrelevant in the majority of circumstances.

unless an effect very specifically gets past their immunity (as a spell that controls nightbane must, for example), it doesn't get past their immunity.

so again: broadly speaking, nightbanes are doing just fine on that front. better than most people, who will actually need to pass saving throws to resist the vast majority of mind control effects that nightbane are simply immune to.

Once possessed the Nightbane isn't 'driving' so it isn't mind control.
Possession of the Nightbane will let the entity drive the body around all day doing whatever it pleases... but it can't use the 'banes skills or powers, just its own.

But outside of the specific problem of possession which may or may not be an issue depending on how you slice things and that is a threat to everyone everywhere at all times anyway...
I mean it is like saying "The Nightbane have a vulnerability to Nightlords"

if you are being turned into a helpless (possibly unaware) passenger in your own body, i'd like to hear how you think that's happening without controlling your mind.

so, possessed in the sense that there's some sort of supernatural being hanging around in your body but not forcing you to do anything? that might be possible. possessed and making you do stuff? it's going to involve controlling your mind in some way or another. if you are immune to your mind being controlled, you're going to be immune to at least that part of the effect, because by default, without anyone else controlling it to do nothing, your mind is in charge of your body, and you're not going to push that mind anywhere else unless you're controlling it.

Shark_Force wrote:if you are being turned into a helpless (possibly unaware) passenger in your own body, i'd like to hear how you think that's happening without controlling your mind.

so, possessed in the sense that there's some sort of supernatural being hanging around in your body but not forcing you to do anything? that might be possible. possessed and making you do stuff? it's going to involve controlling your mind in some way or another. if you are immune to your mind being controlled, you're going to be immune to at least that part of the effect, because by default, without anyone else controlling it to do nothing, your mind is in charge of your body, and you're not going to push that mind anywhere else unless you're controlling it.

Mind control is what it says on the tin. Controlling your mind, your thoughts.
If I stuff another soul inside and run you as a meat-puppet for my summon... your mind has nothing to say on the subject.
Once possessed the person gets zero decisions on what happens and isn't even aware of what is going on. Their mind isn't involved at all in anyway, shape or form (other than biologically by having the brain be in the body).

This isn't the sort of possession in a horror movie where the voice in your head 'makes you do things that you didn't really want to do'.
This is the sort of possession where the person now runs around with glowing eyes drooling lava because they *are* the monster of the week and they are just taking the persons body out for a joy ride.
And once you exorcise them the person is confused about why they are four states from home, covered in blood and holy water and tied up with silver chains since the last thing they remember was opening the book that fell of the shelf last Friday...

ok, i'll try this again:

how are you getting the person's mind to shut off while they're possessed? because whatever that is, it is mind control. what are you doing to keep their mind from controlling their body? because again, whatever that is, it is mind control. whether it is possession-based mind control or non-possession-based mind control, it is *still* mind control, and they are immune to it unless otherwise specified.

so, can something hang out inside of them? sure, they're not immune to that (unless it involves transforming their body, which they are also immune to). can that thing turn off their mind? no, that would be mind control. can that thing prevent their mind from controlling their body? again, that would be mind control, so it doesn't work. it doesn't matter where that mind control comes from, they're immune to it. they can be possessed. the possessed being cannot control their mind to prevent them from being aware or controlling their body, because those things involve controlling the mind of the nightbane.

Shark_Force wrote:ok, i'll try this again:

how are you getting the person's mind to shut off while they're possessed? because whatever that is, it is mind control.

Only by using a definition of that that is radically different than the one used in the game.
Seriously. There is nothing, anywhere, in any book that suggests that "mind control" covers possession.
You get possessed something else is driving the body. That's it. That is how it works.
if Nightbane were immune to possession, they would not get a bonus to save against it... they would be immune.

Shark_Force wrote: what are you doing to keep their mind from controlling their body? because again, whatever that is, it is mind control. whether it is possession-based mind control or non-possession-based mind control, it is *still* mind control, and they are immune to it unless otherwise specified.

No. I am not controlling their mind. I am not making their mind do anything. I just took the wheel for a bit.
Mind control is when I can make you do something and you think "this is a good idea" and do it.
Hypnotic Suggestion is quintessential mind control. So is a Geas spell. Or a vampires domination.

You are literally redefining the word "mind control" in ways that nothing in the books have ever used it to and in the process granting them an immunity to something that they are explicitly stated to not be immune to.
No book ever has said "sleep" is a mind control spell. or that "K.O. gas is mind control" or that dying is mind control...
Losing consciousness is not mind control... it is simply losing consciousness.

Shark_Force wrote:so, can something hang out inside of them? sure, they're not immune to that (unless it involves transforming their body, which they are also immune to). can that thing turn off their mind? no, that would be mind control. can that thing prevent their mind from controlling their body? again, that would be mind control, so it doesn't work. it doesn't matter where that mind control comes from, they're immune to it. they can be possessed. the possessed being cannot control their mind to prevent them from being aware or controlling their body, because those things involve controlling the mind of the nightbane.

No. The possessing entity has zero to do with the mind.
You keep confusing the two.
The possessing entity is performing body control. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the mind other than it just jacked your body out from under you (that is what possession IS after all, grand theft body). It can't control your mind in the slightest because it can't make you think anything.
In fact, lets look at the canonical description of the process

Dark Conversions page 82 wrote:A successful possession means the entity has inhabited the body of a living creature and completely dominates that body. The essence and intellect of the original person is completely submerged, dormant, as if asleep and will have no idea or memory of what the Possessing Entity is doing with his or her body.

That doesn't sound like "mind control" that sounds like "your mind isn't in the equation at all"
You get possessed, your soul/mind/whatever gets suppressed and a new soul gets to be the driver.
There is no 'mind control' involved.

But hey since you are so adamant that possession is identical to mind control... back it up. I showed you my sources now its your turn.
Your making the claim that possession requires mind control to work.. cite your sources. Where, in what book makes this statement?
Which book says that possessed beings are mind controlled?
I'll wait.

again: how do you make the mind stop being part of the equation without controlling it. because last i checked, it was pretty damn firmly part of the equation.

to remove the mind from the equation, you need to control it somehow. otherwise, it is going to go right on being conscious and in control of the body, just like it was before anything possessed it.

you can possess a nightbane. you just can't control them into doing anything while doing so, or turn off their mind, because both of those things involve mind control. i would expect many creatures would find that arrangement incredibly unsatisfactory, and they would likely try to find another thing to possess which they *can* control, because most of the time that's the whole point of possessing someone. but it is possible.

just like a nightbane is not immune to psionics, and yet any attempt to use psionics to control their mind will fail, a nightbane is not immune to possession, but any attempt to use possession to control their mind will fail. the fact that they are not immune to possession is no more relevant than the fact that they are not immune to psionics, or magic, or bullets, or suffocation, or any number of other things. you can do all of those things to a nightbane, but if there is somehow an element of those things that attempts to control the nightbane's mind, that element will not work, in spite of the nightbane not having immunity to the thing you're trying to do.

edit: also, that's a pretty weak-sauce argument that you're claiming you've made and demanded i disprove. where have you given your evidence, exactly, that possession is *not* mind control? you've certainly asserted that it isn't. but actually providing evidence outside of your opinion? there's been none of that. this is particularly disingenuous considering that possession is never actually defined as a general term in the palladium universe so far as i can tell. but, since you asked for some evidence, sure, why not. RUE page 179, under the "mentally possess others" power (it was the most convenient source of the power i had on hand, it is probably copy/pasted, but may not be), where it mentions that the psychic is "... in the victim's body/mind..."

so i guess since i've actually provided ANY citation beyond just screaming that things work the way i say they do, now it's your turn: find a quote that clearly and unequivocally states that possession where the creature controls the subject does *not* require the mind. you claim that your assertion is super-duper-for-sure-100%-entirely backed by the books, so now how about you ACTUALLY prove it by pulling something out of the books that says it isn't instead of just insisting that you're the ultimate authority on these things.

Shark_Force wrote:unless you're arguing that a being can possess a nightbane but cannot make it do anything while doing so (controlling them would involve getting the mind out of the picture, and that doesn't work by default), their save vs possession is likewise pretty irrelevant in the majority of circumstances.

Immunity to mind control doesn't protect against possession. You're not controlling the mind at all, you're setting it aside and using your own mind to control their body.

Are there no "entities" spells in Nightbane Main Book to bring possessing ones around?

eliakon wrote:But outside of the specific problem of possession which may or may not be an issue depending on how you slice things and that is a threat to everyone everywhere at all times anyway...
I mean it is like saying "The Nightbane have a vulnerability to Nightlords"

An entity that grabs a Nightbane in morphus form has gained a much bigger asset than one who grabs the squishy human mage.

Shark_Force wrote:if you are being turned into a helpless (possibly unaware) passenger in your own body, i'd like to hear how you think that's happening without controlling your mind.

The clearest explanation I've seen is page 87 of "Powers Unlimited":

Possession is a different story entirely, because the character being victimized is no longer in control of his or her own body. The possessing psychic, monster, or sorcerer is in control now, and uses the other person's body as he would a suit of power armor

Of course, confusingly enough, this paragraph is immediately preceded by a list of "mind control" powers which happens to include "Mentally Possess Others", so Nightbane should be immune to being taken over by Mind Masters, just not supernatural entities with the non-psionic natural ability. Apparently MPO is the sole case of possession where it actually does work as a form of mind control.

PU87 happens to point out that Empathic Transmission isn't considered Mind Control so that could be a subtler problem.

Strangely it also lists Mind Wipe as a form of mind control which seems strange to me, since it seems more like mental damage or inserting mental blocks... maybe block-insertion requires control?

Shark_Force wrote:how are you getting the person's mind to shut off while they're possessed? because whatever that is, it is mind control.

what are you doing to keep their mind from controlling their body? because again, whatever that is, it is mind control.

A boxer who knocks someone out accomplishes these. Forcing someone to become unconscious is not considered a form of mind control.

PU87 defines mind control as something which "force or induce that individual to do something", but being unconscious isn't doing something.

Shark_Force wrote:since you asked for some evidence, sure, why not. RUE page 179, under the "mentally possess others" power (it was the most convenient source of the power i had on hand, it is probably copy/pasted, but may not be), where it mentions that the psychic is "... in the victim's body/mind..."

so i guess since i've actually provided ANY citation beyond just screaming that things work the way i say they do, now it's your turn: find a quote that clearly and unequivocally states that possession where the creature controls the subject does *not* require the mind

PU87, the super-psi MPO is a unique situation.

Long rather pointless debate in spoiler

Shark_Force wrote:so i guess since i've actually provided ANY citation beyond just screaming that things work the way i say they do, now it's your turn: find a quote that clearly and unequivocally states that possession where the creature controls the subject does *not* require the mind. you claim that your assertion is super-duper-for-sure-100%-entirely backed by the books, so now how about you ACTUALLY prove it by pulling something out of the books that says it isn't instead of just insisting that you're the ultimate authority on these things.

Or you know what better still we can read Conversion Book 2 unrevised page 206-207
Possession
"There are a variety of greater supernatural beings that can posses people or animals. These are always malignant, evil forces which crave to hurt or toy with humans. The foul creatures are actually able to transfer all or part of their evil lifes essence into another living being and completely (emphases theirs) dominate it. The possessing force is so strong that it can suppress the victim's own consciousness and control the body like a diabolical puppet master. Do not confuse this form of possession with the psionic power to temporarily possess others. (so your power isn't even considered possession!)
<sniped rules, but note it is a save vs possession, not mind control>
A successful possession means the creature has inhabited the body of the person (or animal) and completely dominates that body. The essence and intellect of the original person is completely submerged, dormant as if asleep <dormant, not controlled> and will have no recollection...

11. Possession should not be confused with magic enchantments, like domination, trance, compulsion, or hypnotic suggestions or psychic mind control. The difference is that an alien-force has actually inhabited the persons body and taken complete control


I really don't know how to be any more clear than that.
It is not mind control
It is not the psychic power
It is simply something coming along, moving in to the body and taking over and driving it around like a stolen car.
The only thing the persons mind was involved in was the initial save. After that they are asleep until the process is over.

yeah, so that says that type of posessions isn't the same as the psychic power. it doesn't say that the psychic power isn't possession, merely that the psychic power is not the same as this specific power. just like a fire bolt is not the same thing as a fire ball, but both can still be spells that deal fire damage, the psychic power to temporarily possess others is still a form of possession, just not the exact same form.

so let's look at your preferred example: "transfer all or part of their evil lifes essence into another living being and completely emphases theirs) dominate it."

oh hey, look at that. completely dominate it. that sounds an awful lot like mind control.

"The essence and intellect of the original person is completely submerged, dormant as if asleep"

so, just out of curiosity, if i have a remote control and the only thing it does is turn a device off or on, would you insist that the remote control does not in fact control the device? because i hate to break it to you, but if i am able to just turn off the intellect of a person, then that is control. it isn't the same *kind* of control as flying a remote controlled airplane, but it is *still* control. and nightbane are immune to mind control, not just some kinds of mind control, and certainly not only the kinds of mind control you have arbitrarily decided they should be immune to.

as to: "Possession should not be confused with magic enchantments, like domination, trance, compulsion, or hypnotic suggestions or psychic mind control. The difference is that an alien-force has actually inhabited the persons body and taken complete control"

that's very nice. what is the difference? does it say "the difference is that possession is not mind control"? no. no it does not. it says that the difference is that something is 1) inhabiting the body, and 2) has taken complete control. it is distinct from all those other forms of mind control in that the other forms of mind control are not very complete, and in that the body is not inhabited. never once does it say it isn't a form of mind control, merely that it isn't exactly the same thing; for example, you don't get to resist doing things that your alignment is extremely opposed to, or to keep your body from harming the people you love, as you would with most other forms of mind control, because *this* form of mind control is complete control.

and if i can just come along and turn your mind off and on, then i have control of it, and nightbane are immune to that. you can possess a nightbane, because they are not immune to that. you cannot control it's mind while possessing it, including shutting off their mind, because they *are* immune to that. in order to take control of a nightbane via possession, mind control is implicitly required. just as a monster with invulnerability to everything except silver weapons does not need to go into every single other subcategory of weapons in existence and specifically list them as things that the creature is immune to, because that is implicit in the fact that they are immune to everything except silver weapons, nightbane stat blocks don't need to state that they are immune to possession-based mind control, because that is already included in the fact that they are immune to mind control.

Shark_Force wrote:yeah, so that says that type of posessions isn't the same as the psychic power. it doesn't say that the psychic power isn't possession, merely that the psychic power is not the same as this specific power. just like a fire bolt is not the same thing as a fire ball, but both can still be spells that deal fire damage, the psychic power to temporarily possess others is still a form of possession, just not the exact same form.

Ummm no.
It is not the same it is a different power that is not to be confused with this at all. That is why we are explicitly told that it is not the same. And why you use different saves.

Shark_Force wrote:so let's look at your preferred example: "transfer all or part of their evil lifes essence into another living being and completely emphases theirs) dominate it."

oh hey, look at that. completely dominate it. that sounds an awful lot like mind control.

Again no.
Putting someone to sleep is not mind control. Like seriously that is pretty definitional. Which is why I keep bringing up that your expansive definition grants blanket immunity to insanity, sleep, paralysis, illusions and more. Which I note that you keep snipping out... almost as if you are unwilling to try and deal with the logical contradiction that your stance creates OR answer why you feel that Nightbane should get so many secondary powers for free OR explain why they are secretly immune to things that they get bonuses to save against!

Shark_Force wrote:"The essence and intellect of the original person is completely submerged, dormant as if asleep"

so, just out of curiosity, if i have a remote control and the only thing it does is turn a device off or on, would you insist that the remote control does not in fact control the device? because i hate to break it to you, but if i am able to just turn off the intellect of a person, then that is control. it isn't the same *kind* of control as flying a remote controlled airplane, but it is *still* control. and nightbane are immune to mind control, not just some kinds of mind control, and certainly not only the kinds of mind control you have arbitrarily decided they should be immune to.

Because, once again. sleep is not mind control.
your definition here is expansive and instead of actually covering "controlling peoples minds" you are making it "anything that manipulates them in anyway mentally" which we canonically know is bunk because powers unlimited explicitly states that Empathic Transmission is not mind control and it can change your emotions. If flat out changing your emotions isn't mind control then how is putting you to sleep mind control?
Answer...its not.
Mind Control is defined for us on page 87 of Powers Unlimited. "Mind Control powers are abilities to control another person's mind and force or induce that individual to do something against his will and to the specifications of the psychic controlling him.... Possession is a different story entirely, because the character being victimized is no longer in control of his own body.... Empathic Transmission, Horror Factor, and similar are NOT mind "control" They do not directly affect the logical thinking, control part of the brain."
Cut and Dried
If it does not directly affect your logical thinking it is not mind control. Thus:
Emotional control is not mind control.
Sleep is not mind control.
Possession is not mind control.
Anything that does not directly reach in to the mind and make you think (not feel but think)a specific way is not mind control.

Shark_Force wrote:as to: "Possession should not be confused with magic enchantments, like domination, trance, compulsion, or hypnotic suggestions or psychic mind control. The difference is that an alien-force has actually inhabited the persons body and taken complete control"

that's very nice. what is the difference? does it say "the difference is that possession is not mind control"? no. no it does not. it says that the difference is that something is 1) inhabiting the body, and 2) has taken complete control. it is distinct from all those other forms of mind control in that the other forms of mind control are not very complete, and in that the body is not inhabited. never once does it say it isn't a form of mind control, merely that it isn't exactly the same thing; for example, you don't get to resist doing things that your alignment is extremely opposed to, or to keep your body from harming the people you love, as you would with most other forms of mind control, because *this* form of mind control is complete control.

Again no
This is not mind control
It is body control
There is no 'mind control' involved.
Again Powers Unlimited 87 explicitly spells this out.
And yes, of course you don't get to 'resist doing things'... because you aren't doing things(other than sleeping) and your roll to resist sleeping is called "save vs possession"

Shark_Force wrote:and if i can just come along and turn your mind off and on, then i have control of it,

Not according to the games definition of the term.
And that is what matters here, not your definition!
Powers Unlimited 87 explicitly spells out what is or is not mind control. And many of the things that they explicitly state are NOT mind control you are stating ARE. This means that your definition (anything that affects the mind in any way) conflicts with the published canon... which means that your definition is axionically wrong.

Shark_Force wrote: and nightbane are immune to that. you can possess a nightbane, because they are not immune to that. you cannot control it's mind while possessing it, including shutting off their mind, because they *are* immune to that. in order to take control of a nightbane via possession, mind control is implicitly required. just as a monster with invulnerability to everything except silver weapons does not need to go into every single other subcategory of weapons in existence and specifically list them as things that the creature is immune to, because that is implicit in the fact that they are immune to everything except silver weapons, nightbane stat blocks don't need to state that they are immune to possession-based mind control, because that is already included in the fact that they are immune to mind control.

All of which is irelivant is it is built off of a false definition of mind control based on your personal definition of the word, which conflicts with the canon definition of the word.

eliakon wrote:Or you know what better still we can read Conversion Book 2 unrevised page 206-207
Possession
"There are a variety of greater supernatural beings that can posses people or animals. These are always malignant, evil forces which crave to hurt or toy with humans. The foul creatures are actually able to transfer all or part of their evil lifes essence into another living being and completely (emphases theirs) dominate it.

One thing I don't like about that is the emphasis on "evil" when I'm pretty sure anarchist AIs like Splynncryth can do it.

Shark_Force wrote:yeah, so that says that type of posessions isn't the same as the psychic power. it doesn't say that the psychic power isn't possession, merely that the psychic power is not the same as this specific power. just like a fire bolt is not the same thing as a fire ball, but both can still be spells that deal fire damage, the psychic power to temporarily possess others is still a form of possession, just not the exact same form.

The question is whether or not something is mind control (which Nightbane are immune to) not whether or not something is possession (which nightbane are not immune to).

I totally consider the psi power "mentally possess others" to be a form of possession and would let someone stack their bonuses against psi, against mind control AND against possession when resisting that...

Powers Unlimited (as both myself then Eliakon have quoted) explicitly lists it as a mind control power, so we know that Nightbane are immune to that.

OTHER forms of possession are not mind control unless explicitly stated though. Powers Unlimited actually explicitly differentiates the other forms as NOT mind control

well, it's about damned time you actually found anything that remotely supports your position the way you've been claiming.

that said, it's palladium, so it wouldn't know consistency if it came up and bit it in the face, but i guess that settles it. possession isn't mind control. except when it is. because they said so. also, mind control may or may not be mind control, what fun.

this is still moronic, but at least now it's officially moronic. i don't know why you kept on leading with things that do not actually say that for so long, but i guess it actually is in print.

incidentally, possession doesn't make you sleep (you do not get to dream, for example, which is a huge difference in the nightbane setting especially), and it should definitely be mind control, because you can't force the mind to bugger off and do nothing without controlling the mind, which means things that are immune to mind control should bloody well be immune to mind control based on possession.

this is stupid because it is like saying, for example... impervious to fire protects you from fire, but not suffocation, therefore if you breathe in hot enough air it can burn your lungs because the lack of explicit immunity to suffocation overrides the explicit immunity to fire.

Shark_Force wrote:well, it's about damned time you actually found anything that remotely supports your position the way you've been claiming.

that said, it's palladium, so it wouldn't know consistency if it came up and bit it in the face, but i guess that settles it. possession isn't mind control. except when it is. because they said so. also, mind control may or may not be mind control, what fun.

this is still moronic, but at least now it's officially moronic. i don't know why you kept on leading with things that do not actually say that for so long, but i guess it actually is in print.

incidentally, possession doesn't make you sleep (you do not get to dream, for example, which is a huge difference in the nightbane setting especially), and it should definitely be mind control, because you can't force the mind to bugger off and do nothing without controlling the mind, which means things that are immune to mind control should bloody well be immune to mind control based on possession.

this is stupid because it is like saying, for example... impervious to fire protects you from fire, but not suffocation, therefore if you breathe in hot enough air it can burn your lungs because the lack of explicit immunity to suffocation overrides the explicit immunity to fire.

Well, no, I think that most people would have immunity to fire protect you from the heated air burning your lungs. On the other hand, clearly you'd still be subject to suffocation due to lack of oxygen, regardless of how said lack of oxygen was acheived.

Shark_Force wrote:well, it's about damned time you actually found anything that remotely supports your position the way you've been claiming.

I have had support the whole time.
You have been the one with out any support at all with your outlandish claim that you could redefine possession and mindcontrol as you saw fit...
support that I was willing to cite, repeatedly.
Which is more than I can say for you and your simple "argument by repetition" where you simply kept repeating the same unsupported claim over and over as if that made it true.

Shark_Force wrote:that said, it's palladium, so it wouldn't know consistency if it came up and bit it in the face, but i guess that settles it. possession isn't mind control. except when it is. because they said so. also, mind control may or may not be mind control, what fun.

Gee, so your saying that because they don't agree with your ludicrous view that they are inconsistent.
How mature.
They have had the same consistant view on possession the entire time the game has been around... if you are possessed, your possessed. Full Stop.
If someone uses mind control they get to make you think something. Full stop.
The two have never had anything to do with each other at all

Shark_Force wrote:this is still moronic, but at least now it's officially moronic. i don't know why you kept on leading with things that do not actually say that for so long, but i guess it actually is in print.

It is moronic that they do not accept your radical redefinition of the terms to mean what no other game I have ever played has ever used so as to allow you to grant yourself additional powers that the author EXPLICITLY stated you do NOT have?
And that is MORONIC?

Shark_Force wrote:incidentally, possession doesn't make you sleep (you do not get to dream, for example, which is a huge difference in the nightbane setting especially),

You are effectively comatose so the difference is pretty moot

Shark_Force wrote:nd it should definitely be mind control, because you can't force the mind to bugger off and do nothing without controlling the mind, which means things that are immune to mind control should bloody well be immune to mind control based on possession.

again, this word you use...
You can't force the mind to 'bugger off' because your not there to force it to do anything. It is no more mind control than casting sleep on someone is mind control and arguing "well I can't tell them to bugger off and wake up when ever I want to, so that's mind control"
Uhhh no, that's not how it works. You *tried* to resist a one time deal. You failed. You don't get to keep trying. And just because you don't doesn't mean its mind control it means you have been knocked out and are unconscious. unconsciousness is not mind control, regardless of how often you insist it is and that you should be allowed to claim that you are immune to all powers that cause unconsciousness. It doesn't work that way... you only get the powers that are listed, not random other powers too.

Shark_Force wrote:this is stupid because it is like saying, for example... impervious to fire protects you from fire, but not suffocation, therefore if you breathe in hot enough air it can burn your lungs because the lack of explicit immunity to suffocation overrides the explicit immunity to fire.

Not in the slightest.
It is saying that impervious to fire doesn't protect you from suffocation.
Therefore swimming in lava means you can still drown.
Because lava, while hot and the heat is blocked by your impervious to fire... you can't breath lava.
You don't get immunity to anything that is hot or that is caused by anything hot or that is caused by anything that is caused by anything hot.

Shark_Force wrote:incidentally, possession doesn't make you sleep (you do not get to dream, for example, which is a huge difference in the nightbane setting especially), and it should definitely be mind control, because you can't force the mind to bugger off and do nothing without controlling the mind, which means things that are immune to mind control should bloody well be immune to mind control based on possession.

Being knocked out isn't mind control. Are you thinking Nightbane can't be knocked out by boxers rolling a natural 20?

support consists of actually quoting some rule that says possession is not mind control. not something that says possession is not the same thing as specific mind control powers. until that last citation, you had no actual supporting evidence, just baseless claims.

i'm saying that palladium is inconsistent because they're inconsistent. possession isn't mind control except when it is, for example, with the only actual clear statement that the one example of possession that they do consider to be mind control is mind control being in a single book out of hundreds that they've published, and oh yeah, that reference isn't in some universal book or anything, or even in the core book for ANY of their settings, but is hidden in a throwaway line in powers unlimited. which is also the only place that says emotion manipulation isn't mind control (which is also a load of crap, but it's a load of crap that is not the subject of discussion at this time).

it is moronic that a thing that controls your mind is not considered mind control (except when it is, with no clear dividing line as to when the hell that might be except in that one book that most of their fans won't even own) purely on the basis that it isn't 100% mind control, therefore you have immunity to NONE of it.

the difference between asleep and possessed is quite substantial. ESPECIALLY in nightbane, where you can literally have dream powers. and if you ask anyone who actually studies sleeping and dreams, they will tell you that there is a HUGE difference between no brain activity whatsoever and sleeping. no brain activity is what happens when you die, not what happens when you sleep, and there is a rather substantial difference between those two states.

sleep doesn't force your mind to leave the body. sleep doesn't shut the mind off entirely. it is NOT like sleep, while sleeping you are still in control of your body and your mind is still highly active.

so no, it isn't like drowning in lava while being immune to the burning. it is like saying that because you're not immune to suffocation, any effect that causes suffocation overrides any other immunities you may have, even if those immunities should prevent the specific form of suffocation you are being subjected to. the control offered by possession REQUIRES mind control. that it should ignore an immunity to mind control is moronic.

Psst... Dark Designs page 123. Mind control is the manipulation of a consciousness. Possession is sometimes the supplanting of said consciousness, and other times just it's hitching a ride to hide within and/or whispering in the person's ear (so-to-speak). Nightbane are immune to the former, not the latter.

Hope that helps.

Warwolf wrote:Psst... Dark Designs page 123. Mind control is the manipulation of a consciousness. Possession is sometimes the supplanting of said consciousness, and other times just it's hitching a ride to hide within and/or whispering in the person's ear (so-to-speak). Nightbane are immune to the former, not the latter.

Hope that helps.

Very much so! Thank you.

Warwolf wrote:Psst... Dark Designs page 123. Mind control is the manipulation of a consciousness. Possession is sometimes the supplanting of said consciousness, and other times just it's hitching a ride to hide within and/or whispering in the person's ear (so-to-speak). Nightbane are immune to the former, not the latter.

Hope that helps.

I don't think I noticed that FAQ before, gotta stop skimming books just for powers =)

I especially like the idea (pg 122) of banes/guardians needing principles of magic to draw PPE from ley lines and blood sacrifice. Seems that question neglected to correct the asker that "amulets" ought to be "PPE talismans".

I'm not sure I follow how slain demons trying to reincarnate can't use a nightbane... I guess because causing a pregnancy is a physical transformation? Does that mean nightbanes can't get pregnant at all regardless of whether or not it's a demon?

That thing about Elementals / Chinese animal spirit is interesting... "unlikely to even try" makes it sound like it would be possible for them to do it, but that it wouldn't alter the body like normal...

So what would that mean? Is body-alteration just a "bonus" or is it a necessity of possession so the failure to do it means the possession ends?

"may even be able to use psionic or magic abilities to try and communicate with and/or influence the host, but the Nightbane’s consciousness is secure against direct manipulation." I guess means you could send voices (be a "voice in the head") and maybe use social skills (MA-based trust/intimidation?) to try and influence them, just not stuff like hypnotic suggestion. But since the emotions are the body and not the mind, you could do Empathic Transmission: Anger or Empathic Transmission: Love to make them more receptive to certain stuff?

*finds ARs for main book morphus traits* NOICE

*notices that guys with super powered facades can be banes* NOICE

The "Substance Abuse Table" Juicer stuff is a bit confusing... it sounds more like you could just emulate the appearance of one (just like you might emulate a werebeast or vampire) rather than actually getting a bio-comp..

The concern about dichotomy between "fragile facade" might not apply to some powers, like if it was just 'Clock Manipulation' and 'Sensory Orb' for example.

"for almost all Nightbane, the Morphus form uses Hand to Hand: Martial Arts" ... with what exceptions though? Why 'almost' ?

I thought it might be "Combat Focused" on 117 but I don't see anything about changing HTH skill there

*finds "Magic Focused" also on 117* NOICE

This conversation has taken a bit of a left turn from the original question, but dang if it isn't getting my creative juices going. Thanks guys!

Axelmania wrote:I don't think I noticed that FAQ before, gotta stop skimming books just for powers =)

Might be useful.

Axelmania wrote:I especially like the idea (pg 122) of banes/guardians needing principles of magic to draw PPE from ley lines and blood sacrifice. Seems that question neglected to correct the asker that "amulets" ought to be "PPE talismans".

Um... no? Since they can be created with the spell "Amulet," I think it's safe to call them such.

Axelmania wrote:I'm not sure I follow how slain demons trying to reincarnate can't use a nightbane... I guess because causing a pregnancy is a physical transformation? Does that mean nightbanes can't get pregnant at all regardless of whether or not it's a demon?

The pregnancy question was answered officially already. I'm thinking it was in the official FAQ in Rifter 48. Long story short, they can get pregnant. They can also have amputations, plastic surgery, and other physical CHANGES to their Facade. Demonic rebirth is more than that, though. As described, it's more a type of possession, with the demon/deevil altering the mortal host. How else could the being gestate and come to term? It would likely tear right through the mother prematurely. Given that, it would be considered an externally sourced supernatural transformation, which Nightbane are immune to.

Axelmania wrote:That thing about Elementals / Chinese animal spirit is interesting... "unlikely to even try" makes it sound like it would be possible for them to do it, but that it wouldn't alter the body like normal...

So what would that mean? Is body-alteration just a "bonus" or is it a necessity of possession so the failure to do it means the possession ends?

It's unclear based on the canon. It simply states that when one of these beings possesses someone, the physical body changes and takes on aspects of the spirit. Ultimately, it's up to the G.M. My take is that it may be technically possible for such a spirit to possess a 'Bane, but it wouldn't bond with them the way it does a normal host. I would imagine the being would find that weird and uncomfortable, like wearing a suit that's a half-size too small. Thus, they wouldn't do it unless they had no other choice.

Axelmania wrote:"may even be able to use psionic or magic abilities to try and communicate with and/or influence the host, but the Nightbane’s consciousness is secure against direct manipulation." I guess means you could send voices (be a "voice in the head") and maybe use social skills (MA-based trust/intimidation?) to try and influence them, just not stuff like hypnotic suggestion. But since the emotions are the body and not the mind, you could do Empathic Transmission: Anger or Empathic Transmission: Love to make them more receptive to certain stuff?

Yes, the being could still communicate and use their powers against the Nightbane they possessed. They just can't make that Nightbane's consciousness do anything it doesn't want to. Doesn't mean they can't attempt to influence that consciousness.

Axelmania wrote:*notices that guys with super powered facades can be banes* NOICE

Axelmania wrote:The concern about dichotomy between "fragile facade" might not apply to some powers, like if it was just 'Clock Manipulation' and 'Sensory Orb' for example.

In response to the two above, remember that just because it CAN be done doesn't necessarily mean it SHOULD be. Making the Facade too powerful (and that doesn't just mean strength, S.D.C., etc.) puts a major damper on possibly the coolest dynamic of the Nightbane: having to transform to be truly powerful. And yes, I know that Mystics and Sorcerors already break that mold, but at least they have to burn the same points that fuel abilities in Morphus form. Superpowers are mostly infinite-use.

Axelmania wrote:The "Substance Abuse Table" Juicer stuff is a bit confusing... it sounds more like you could just emulate the appearance of one (just like you might emulate a werebeast or vampire) rather than actually getting a bio-comp..

Essentially, you could build a Rifts Nightbane whose Morphus was a Juicer or Crazy (without psionics). That's all the features they get, though.

Axelmania wrote:"for almost all Nightbane, the Morphus form uses Hand to Hand: Martial Arts" ... with what exceptions though? Why 'almost' ?

I thought it might be "Combat Focused" on 117 but I don't see anything about changing HTH skill there.

Instead of looking elsewhere, read that last paragraph. I left room for the potential in future books for there to be 'Bane that don't conform to the Martial Arts hand-to-hand structure. For now, it's Martial Arts.