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Are there any better details anywhere about Chi-Town than the roughly 1/3 page writeup in the RUE? I can't recall it being covered anywhere else and did some skimming in tables of contents for likely books but wasn't seeing anything. I have to assume I'm overlooking something with more details somewhere.

LostOne wrote:Are there any better details anywhere about Chi-Town than the roughly 1/3 page writeup in the RUE? I can't recall it being covered anywhere else and did some skimming in tables of contents for likely books but wasn't seeing anything. I have to assume I'm overlooking something with more details somewhere.

Theres information about the 'Burbs in the Chi-Town Burbs adventure books, and some more info about the Burbs in Coalition War Campaign, and CWC has some VERY slim info on Chi-Town itself (like, less than a page).

So.. no, much like Lazlo, you're not missing it. Its literally never been detailed.

And likely never will be.

There is a bit more information at least about some external defense measures in heroes of humanity I believe but no we don't have much of a write up either of the coalition fortress cities insides or lazlo.

It's on my list to tackle as a netbook in addition to lazlo, space, and gaw....so many things not properly addressed while we get.......Antarctica.....oy

LostOne wrote:Are there any better details anywhere about Chi-Town than the roughly 1/3 page writeup in the RUE? I can't recall it being covered anywhere else and did some skimming in tables of contents for likely books but wasn't seeing anything. I have to assume I'm overlooking something with more details somewhere.

Tales of the Chi-Town Burbs. It's one of Palladium's lesser-known gems, a collection of good short stories that provides lots of details.

Believe it or not the Black Market book has some of the most 'detailed' details on Chi Town, that have been published Canon. Thing is. Some of them are absurd, so I hesitant to point people to them as a frame of reference.

Things such as "Just flying up to the out side wall of the walled city fortress and chucking a bag to someone on a balcony"

When via CWC there's standing armies around Chi Town numbering into the hundreds of thousands of troops and all the advanced technology that should be able to count the hairs on a fly's rump at 500 miles....

There's paragraphs written about just winging up to the wall and chucking stuff. lol

But.. if you can get past THAT, there's some details about security measures in the Black Market book.

I believe that's also the book that points out that the CS have magic scanners at the doors/points of entry. As in machines that can detect magic.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Believe it or not the Black Market book has some of the most 'detailed' details on Chi Town, that have been published Canon. Thing is. Some of them are absurd, so I hesitant to point people to them as a frame of reference.

Things such as "Just flying up to the out side wall of the walled city fortress and chucking a bag to someone on a balcony"

When via CWC there's standing armies around Chi Town numbering into the hundreds of thousands of troops and all the advanced technology that should be able to count the hairs on a fly's rump at 500 miles....

There's paragraphs written about just winging up to the wall and chucking stuff. lol

But.. if you can get past THAT, there's some details about security measures in the Black Market book.

I believe that's also the book that points out that the CS have magic scanners at the doors/points of entry. As in machines that can detect magic.

Invisibility & Invisibility to Sensors are a thing.

Though IIRC the passage was referring to someone using a hoverbike or something, which makes it somewhat harder to believe... but then again, "Armies near Chi-Town" doesn't mean 'sitting in the 'Burbs' ready to intercept a guy on a hoverbike at a moments notice" - someone who jets up from the burbs a few hundred feet from the wall and then back down is.. possible. Even the fastest SAM might not make it in time.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Believe it or not the Black Market book has some of the most 'detailed' details on Chi Town, that have been published Canon. Thing is. Some of them are absurd, so I hesitant to point people to them as a frame of reference.

Things such as "Just flying up to the out side wall of the walled city fortress and chucking a bag to someone on a balcony"

When via CWC there's standing armies around Chi Town numbering into the hundreds of thousands of troops and all the advanced technology that should be able to count the hairs on a fly's rump at 500 miles....

There's paragraphs written about just winging up to the wall and chucking stuff. lol

But.. if you can get past THAT, there's some details about security measures in the Black Market book.

I believe that's also the book that points out that the CS have magic scanners at the doors/points of entry. As in machines that can detect magic.

Invisibility & Invisibility to Sensors are a thing.

Though IIRC the passage was referring to someone using a hoverbike or something, which makes it somewhat harder to believe... but then again, "Armies near Chi-Town" doesn't mean 'sitting in the 'Burbs' ready to intercept a guy on a hoverbike at a moments notice" - someone who jets up from the burbs a few hundred feet from the wall and then back down is.. possible. Even the fastest SAM might not make it in time.

If you have armies literally into the hundreds of thousands of troops and that is your capital and you're the CS you're telling me it's not covered 500 miles out with overlaping flying security patrols of not only Samus but sky cycles, choppers, hovor craft, etc ad infin??

It was stupidly absurd to even conceptualize that happening. "Oh wee I'm going to some how avoid 500 radars and fly my bike up to the walled city and toss a package and zip away. Dur hur!"

The Rifts Adventure Guide has about 20 pages or so on the Burbs.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Believe it or not the Black Market book has some of the most 'detailed' details on Chi Town, that have been published Canon. Thing is. Some of them are absurd, so I hesitant to point people to them as a frame of reference.

Things such as "Just flying up to the out side wall of the walled city fortress and chucking a bag to someone on a balcony"

When via CWC there's standing armies around Chi Town numbering into the hundreds of thousands of troops and all the advanced technology that should be able to count the hairs on a fly's rump at 500 miles....

There's paragraphs written about just winging up to the wall and chucking stuff. lol

But.. if you can get past THAT, there's some details about security measures in the Black Market book.

I believe that's also the book that points out that the CS have magic scanners at the doors/points of entry. As in machines that can detect magic.

Invisibility & Invisibility to Sensors are a thing.

Though IIRC the passage was referring to someone using a hoverbike or something, which makes it somewhat harder to believe... but then again, "Armies near Chi-Town" doesn't mean 'sitting in the 'Burbs' ready to intercept a guy on a hoverbike at a moments notice" - someone who jets up from the burbs a few hundred feet from the wall and then back down is.. possible. Even the fastest SAM might not make it in time.

If you have armies literally into the hundreds of thousands of troops and that is your capital and you're the CS you're telling me it's not covered 500 miles out with overlaping flying security patrols of not only Samus but sky cycles, choppers, hovor craft, etc ad infin??

We know for a fact that the air cover ISNT that thick. We're told that. The burbs dont start 500 miles away. They start right at the base of the arcology. A SAM could be just a few thousand feet away, and a guy could jet up, toss a bag, and jet back down before the SAM operator can both realize that something illegal is happening (there is, after all, plenty of legal air traffic that can dock at the higher levels of the arcology), lock on to the guy, and get a clean shot off. It doesn't take minutes, it takes seconds.

It was stupidly absurd to even conceptualize that happening. "Oh wee I'm going to some how avoid 500 radars and fly my bike up to the walled city and toss a package and zip away. Dur hur!"

I think you're under the missaprehension that he's avoiding any of those things. He's spotted immediately, but it takes a few seconds to realize he's not legitimate air traffic, then a few more seconds for someone to tell the air patrols that something is amiss, then a few more seconds for said patrols to get an eye on the guy, and confirm that yes, this is indeed criminal activity of some kind and not a legitimate air traffic person who was just stupid and left their IFF off, and then a few more seconds to lock on to the guy and fire (if their typical ROE allows them to fire without authorization, ill assume it DOES)... whole thing might be over before the shot gets off. The guy is back down at ground level among the buildings, ditches his bike, and walks away.

As an example.

As I said, i dont PARTICULARLY think myself that it was well thought out, not given what we know about Coalition paranoia, but its feasible.

Itd be quite a bit easier to just have someone with some ISP or PPE do it, though, as they could fly up, totally undetectable, drop said package, and leave.

Simple Invisibility protects you from everything except thermal/IR; Superior Invisibility protects you from all of it. As you're not making a hostile action, it wont break.

On the off-chance that said "magic detection devices" have absurdly long ranges (the implication is that they DONT, as it IS stated in Black Market that even the rich people who live on those apartments that are on the outside of the city wall and have open balconies have to go through a full security scan to actually get back inside the arcology/city wall, every single time, and this is where people get caught, trying to bring the goods inside) - Invisibility to Sensors isn't any higher level than Superior Invisibility and can be learned by literally anyone with the money for the spell in Merctown.

Honestly, the fact that magic doesnt play a MUCH bigger role in smuggling INTO Chi-Town is kinda absurd.

A dirty, abandoned room in the lower levels would make an EXCELLENT contraband dump. All you have to do is get even a low-level mage of any kind a good picture of it, somehow (even a live video feed would do, or various kinds of psychic powers) and they could dump entire loads of contraband in there with Teleport: Lesser dozens of times a day.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Believe it or not the Black Market book has some of the most 'detailed' details on Chi Town, that have been published Canon. Thing is. Some of them are absurd, so I hesitant to point people to them as a frame of reference.

Things such as "Just flying up to the out side wall of the walled city fortress and chucking a bag to someone on a balcony"

When via CWC there's standing armies around Chi Town numbering into the hundreds of thousands of troops and all the advanced technology that should be able to count the hairs on a fly's rump at 500 miles....

There's paragraphs written about just winging up to the wall and chucking stuff. lol

But.. if you can get past THAT, there's some details about security measures in the Black Market book.

I believe that's also the book that points out that the CS have magic scanners at the doors/points of entry. As in machines that can detect magic.

Invisibility & Invisibility to Sensors are a thing.

Though IIRC the passage was referring to someone using a hoverbike or something, which makes it somewhat harder to believe... but then again, "Armies near Chi-Town" doesn't mean 'sitting in the 'Burbs' ready to intercept a guy on a hoverbike at a moments notice" - someone who jets up from the burbs a few hundred feet from the wall and then back down is.. possible. Even the fastest SAM might not make it in time.

If you have armies literally into the hundreds of thousands of troops and that is your capital and you're the CS you're telling me it's not covered 500 miles out with overlaping flying security patrols of not only Samus but sky cycles, choppers, hovor craft, etc ad infin??

We know for a fact that the air cover ISNT that thick. We're told that.

We're not told that. We're left to assume that due to this dumbarse tactic that's put forth as having a chance of working. lol If you do the math there's literally 100s of 1000s of troops around the city. They're not all asleep at the wheel. And that's with out actually acting like the city itself would have.. you know... Defenses.

Which it SURELY would, to dwarf any other city in North America by far. Heck Archie can fire flights of missiles at anything with in 500 miles of the UP. But the CS have zero radar and air coverage on Chi town? They would have dozens if not 100s of radar receivers all around the city on multiple levels with overlapping feeds, all directed into combat computers, and the rail guns, long range laser turrents, and missile batteries would all be tied in.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The burbs dont start 500 miles away. They start right at the base of the arcology. A SAM could be just a few thousand feet away, and a guy could jet up, toss a bag, and jet back down before the SAM operator can both realize that something illegal is happening (there is, after all, plenty of legal air traffic that can dock at the higher levels of the arcology),

Again this assumes that 1) Chi town has no defenses itself wich would be about the most stupid high tech post apoc city on record and
2) Like a SAMUS pilot can't read his own radar screen.

Even if he doesn't have inits, he can turnn and fire on someone flying high speed towards the city as the second action in the melee round. Even if he had to do a full about face he'd still have 3 or 4 shots at the target before the first round was done. And yes, the Samus pilot can chase them down to ground level, flying THROUGH buildings if he has to (But he doesn't) to get his target.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
lock on to the guy, and get a clean shot off. It doesn't take minutes, it takes seconds.

It doesn't take minutes to fire on the guy either. As soon as he heads up, he's on radar, the Samus turns and fires.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

It was stupidly absurd to even conceptualize that happening. "Oh wee I'm going to some how avoid 500 radars and fly my bike up to the walled city and toss a package and zip away. Dur hur!"

I think you're under the missaprehension that he's avoiding any of those things. He's spotted immediately, but it takes a few seconds to realize he's not legitimate air traffic,

No it doesn't. he would instantly ping as a fast moving bogey with out an IFF. I.E. the milisecond he appears on radar he's painted RED as a hostile.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: then a few more seconds for someone to tell the air patrols that something is amiss,

Even if the city would take seconds to do such, (Which it wouldn't) The flight patrols all have their own radar that would paint the target as hostile.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: then a few more seconds for said patrols to get an eye on the guy,

You simply turn towards the radar contact. Under a second.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: and confirm that yes, this is indeed criminal activity of some kind and not a legitimate air traffic person who was just stupid and left their IFF off,

Now... I've a long history here of not painting the CS as horrible devils that many do.. but this kinda makes me chuckle.

You think the CS give a crap about confirming and or double checking if it's a civilian with an iFF off? No way. As soon as something paints red, close to the city they light it up. That's whom ever it was (Past tense) fault. If you're flying towards Chi Town and not broadcasting that friendly signal from 100s of miles off you're simply dead.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: and then a few more seconds to lock on to the guy and fire (if their typical ROE allows them to fire without authorization, ill assume it DOES)

But that's not how palladium's system works. Second action of the melee round they can fire. "Locking on" happens automatically. But even IRL a patrol craft locks on fast, as the radar and such do it automatically.

And again this is assuming Chitown isn't just.... bristling with the Rifts equivalent of 100s of SEAWIZ guns. (Automatic defense systems that fire off 75 rounds, PER SECOND to intercept and shred fast moving objects flying at US ships. In Rifts, Railguns and laser turrets would be used for range and bang. If the bogey was further out missile turrets would be used. But up close it's going to get hosed by railgun rounds and laser blasts

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
... whole thing might be over before the shot gets off. The guy is back down at ground level among the buildings, ditches his bike, and walks away.

They pop up, numerous radar's lock on. Even if the City itself didn't open fire and shred it in under 5 seconds, the same Samus flights can just fly down there to ground level. Shreddding anything in their path that they need to. But the Burbs are by and large shanty's. They could just fly through any buildings they didn't feel like going over or around, but the guy isn't going to just get away. He has to climb vertically up to the 'balcony' deliver his cargo and then desend. Up and down is still travel distance and the defenses will come with a quickness.

And THAT is assuming the same defenses of the city don't just target him and fire off a few MDC missiles at his landing sight and take out the equivilent of a city block. "He's hiding among the burbs" ... isn't really a defense the CS would be squeemish with.

"Private?"
"Commander! Bogey fast mover, darted up the side of the city, then about face and is diving for the burbs"
"Have him locked?"
"Yes sir!!"
"Fire a flight of missiles at him and his projected landing site"
*CLICK- FOOOOOOSH BOOOM!*

Sir, approximately 5,000 square feet of the burbs are aflame."
"Very good private. Back to your air patrol."
"Thank you sir"

This is why I think it's a stupid tactic. The city itself will be brimming with defenses. We have automatic defenses NOW that can shred incoming missiles. The gun is automatic and can intercept supersonic missiles. Which some dude on a hovorbike is NOT going to be. (Going supersonic up and down.)

Chi town can develop nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks. Laser rifles. Flying power armor. Hovor tanks. Huge flying troop carriers, MDC materials. Skelebots, and lets not forget uplift a simple dog into a fully sapient creature that can think, reason and have self idenity, and communicate with us in our own language. They can do alllll that super science stuff.

I think their defenses would at least be on par with a technology we developed in .... 1973?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
As an example.

As I said, i dont PARTICULARLY think myself that it was well thought out, not given what we know about Coalition paranoia, but its feasible.

Itd be quite a bit easier to just have someone with some ISP or PPE do it, though, as they could fly up, totally undetectable, drop said package, and leave.

Simple Invisibility protects you from everything except thermal/IR; Superior Invisibility protects you from all of it. As you're not making a hostile action, it wont break.

On the off-chance that said "magic detection devices" have absurdly long ranges (the implication is that they DONT, as it IS stated in Black Market that even the rich people who live on those apartments that are on the outside of the city wall and have open balconies have to go through a full security scan to actually get back inside the arcology/city wall, every single time, and this is where people get caught, trying to bring the goods inside) - Invisibility to Sensors isn't any higher level than Superior Invisibility and can be learned by literally anyone with the money for the spell in Merctown.

Honestly, the fact that magic doesnt play a MUCH bigger role in smuggling INTO Chi-Town is kinda absurd.

A dirty, abandoned room in the lower levels would make an EXCELLENT contraband dump. All you have to do is get even a low-level mage of any kind a good picture of it, somehow (even a live video feed would do, or various kinds of psychic powers) and they could dump entire loads of contraband in there with Teleport: Lesser dozens of times a day.

As for the magic stuff... ugg. It's 4am in the morning. THat's an entire other kettle of fish.

Alright, I got it. This is how I think it would go down.

I am pretty sure that there are some skills in Rifts that will allow you to Spoof a fake iFF signal, or they could steal one off a legitimate vehicle. It might not hold up to closer scrutiny (ie scanning somebodies plates) but it seems legit at first glance.

They've been planning this for weeks now, and chose a time to do it when Private McMillan (who is on the black market pay roll) is on duty watching the monitors for section 438 through 454. The balcony they chose was one that doesn't have overlapping sensors. The external monitoring camera for that balcony has been "on the fritz" and has had a fix-it maintenance ticket in for about a month now, but it keeps getting "rescheduled". The only thing they need to worry about are the external patrols, whose flight plans are all constantly changing and sensitive.

The smuggler pilot of the rocket cycle fly's in a normal pattern around the city that passes by within 300ft (100m) of the target balcony, however the pilot needs to take about three passes around the city before he spots an opening in the patrols that leaves only 2 SAMAS PA's within range & line of sight (instead of the usual 5-10). That's when he makes a break for it (first action).

The two pilots both make their spot checks to identify the irregular flight path, and only one of them see's something fishy and radio's it in "Woah I've got a bogey rocket cycle, moving to pursue" (second action). By that time the drop off has already occurred and the rocket cycle is quickly flying down the side of the superstructure (second action).

The first Samas opens fire with a pair of mini missiles, while the second Samas spots the target and turns to pursue (third action).
Private McMillan, who wants to keep his job now, radio's back "Yeah looks like he's got a fake iFF transponder", and activates/turns off the safety on the auto guns (third action)
Meanwhile the smuggler, flying at 300+mph, is quickly approaching the cover of the buildings in the burbs, and attempts to dodge the missiles (third action)
The dodge fails and the rocket cycle eats 60MDC from the pair of mini missiles, but is still flight capable.
At the same time, the smugglers friends in the burbs hear the commotion and set off the smoke grenades in the back alley between Rudy's Saloon (a popular sports bar with apartments upstairs), and furniture store. (third action)

The pair of Samas pursue and fire their rail guns at the smuggler. One of them rolls poorly and hits the corner of an apartment building causing debris to fly down onto the street below. (fourth action), the other one hits but the smuggler rolls well in his dodge and manages to avoid getting hit.
Private McMillan is unable to get a lock on the rocket cycle with the city turrets as it darts around and between buildings in the burbs. He decides not to fire into the buildings (he's on the payroll afterall) (fourth action).
After dodging the rail gun burst, the smuggler makes a sharp turn into the alley his friends had put the smoke screen in. (fourth action)

The two Samas lost line of sight as the rocket cycle went around the corner into the smokey alley, so one of them flys down to ground level and prepare to land and search on foot while the other flies circles around the alley looking to intercept the rocket cycle if it tries to make a break for it. (fifth action)
The smuggler ditches his bike and trench coat in the alley dumpster that had been placed there and tipped over ahead of time for that purpose, and stumbles through the smoke trying to find the side door to the furniture store, but is unable to do so in the smoke and ends up wondering out of the smoke into a group of people hanging outside Rudy's Saloon. (fifth action)

The Samas on the ground tries to look through the smoke but even his thermal vision isn't able to penetrate it to get a clear picture, and he hesitates to go into the smoke thinking it might be an ambush (sixth action)
The airborne Samas rolls a spot check to see if he can see the smuggler coming out the back side of the smoke, but his roll is right on the border of success and failure, so the GM rules that he only got a glimpse of a figure leaving the smoke, but didn't have enough time to take a shot from this angle, so the second Samas turns to make a lower approach and radio's "hey I think i see someone coming out the other side of the smoke" (sixth action)
The smuggler clears his eyes and sees the people at the Saloon and immediately tries to blend in with the crowd while trying to put some distance between himself and the alley. (sixth action)

The first Samas after hearing about someone coming out the other side gets the nerve to enter the smoke, and wonders through the smoke until he stumbles on the overturned dumpster with a lid that can't close.
The second Samas finds a spot to land and begin's looking for the smuggler in the crowd.
The Smuggler hears the Samas approaching and begins to run away along with about a dozen other people on the street fearful of the coalition solider.(seventh action)
Rudy, the saloon owner, comes out the front door to see what the commotion is.

The first Samas pears into the dumpster and finds the damaged rocket cycle puts two and two together, and continues through the smoke.
The second Samas raises his gun towards the remaining people outside the saloon and in a threatening voice demands to know "Where did he go!?"
Rudy, the saloon owner responds "Who?, we didn't see anything, please don't shoot!"
The smuggler continue's to run away on foot.

The second Samas shouts "The smuggler, on the rocket cycle, where did he go"
One of the frightened saloon patrons points down the road in a direction that a group of people had been running, but the expression in her face showed that she wasn't certain.
The second Samas looks down the road and realizes with frustration that there isn't any way to tell which, if any, of the fleeing people was the smuggler. He turns back to the people in front of them and continues in his threatening voice "Don't any of you move! I know he had help, ... I bet you're all working with 'em, arn't ya?, ... well you better f#$ing tell me now, where's he going, who's he working with.
The crowd replies with puzzled frightened faces.

The second samas picks up Rudy the saloon owner by the collar and slams him against a brick wall. "Do you want to Die?!!". he then turns and points his railgun towards the patrons menacingly. Some of the patrons crouch down on the ground crying in fear.
The first Samas grabs the second by the shoulder and pulls him back "What the hell is wrong with you Dave?!, They're civilians"
Dave responds "do you think they are so innocent?" and shrugs his comrades hand off his shoulder and returns his rifle to a firing position
The first Samas "Dave, Becky lives in the burbs!"
"What?!" Dave's demeanor calms with confusion at the unexpected topic
"Becky, your girlfriend, ... jeez man, one of these guys might be her father for all we know... calm down man."
Dave, the second Samas pilot, lowers his gun in frustration and turns away from the crowd and curses.

The smuggler delivered the package and got away, but not without losing his rocket cycle, and with significant risk to his person. ISS investigators review the incident and examine the tapes only to be disturbed that the monitoring camera's for the balcony weren't operable during the incident, and other means to identify who was on the balcony to pick up the package didn't lead to a suspect.

... Well that was a fun write. A lot longer than I anticipated, but I hope you all enjoyed

Hotrod wrote:

LostOne wrote:Are there any better details anywhere about Chi-Town than the roughly 1/3 page writeup in the RUE? I can't recall it being covered anywhere else and did some skimming in tables of contents for likely books but wasn't seeing anything. I have to assume I'm overlooking something with more details somewhere.

Tales of the Chi-Town Burbs. It's one of Palladium's lesser-known gems, a collection of good short stories that provides lots of details.

Still annoyed that my story for that got lost and left out.

But, anyway, while it's not canon, I have a bit about Coalition culture, if you're interested.

Mark Hall wrote:Still annoyed that my story for that got lost and left out.

But, anyway, while it's not canon, I have a bit about Coalition culture, if you're interested.

That does suck, they should put the story on the errata page if nothing else. I'll check them out, thanks!

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I believe that's also the book that points out that the CS have magic scanners at the doors/points of entry. As in machines that can detect magic.

Invisibility & Invisibility to Sensors are a thing.

Invisibility to Sensors (is that from Combat Mage?) may protect YOU from being detected by a machine, but does it protect the spell itself from being detected by a magic-detecting machine?

Axelmania wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I believe that's also the book that points out that the CS have magic scanners at the doors/points of entry. As in machines that can detect magic.

Invisibility & Invisibility to Sensors are a thing.

Invisibility to Sensors (is that from Combat Mage?) may protect YOU from being detected by a machine, but does it protect the spell itself from being detected by a magic-detecting machine?

Ley Line Walkers can see the magic in someone that is invisible. But it specifically says does not include Invisibility Superior. So I'd assume if the LLW can't see it, neither can any machine.

LostOne wrote:

Axelmania wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I believe that's also the book that points out that the CS have magic scanners at the doors/points of entry. As in machines that can detect magic.

Invisibility & Invisibility to Sensors are a thing.

Invisibility to Sensors (is that from Combat Mage?) may protect YOU from being detected by a machine, but does it protect the spell itself from being detected by a magic-detecting machine?

Ley Line Walkers can see the magic in someone that is invisible. But it specifically says does not include Invisibility Superior. So I'd assume if the LLW can't see it, neither can any machine.

Back to Occams Razor.

Invisibility to Sensors makes you completely undetectable by any sensor.
Is the thing that detects magic a sensor?
If yes, then the spell does what it says - you're undetectable.
If no, (say, a Dog Boy or Psi-stalker), then they can "see" you.

So, tech sensors that can detect magic... are sensors, and are defeated by Invisibility to Sensors.

FWIW, therei s ALSO Mystic Invisibility (a level lower than Invis to Sensors IIRC) that makes you immune to detection by non-tech means. Even works against Dog Boys and similar. So if you layer Invis (Superior), Invis to Sensors, and Mystic Invis...

You're just not detectable at all. By anything.

For an added bonus, throw on Invis (Lesser) so that if you do have to shoot someone, you're still not optically visible, since Invis to sensors defeats the one way that Lesser Invis sucks - thermo/infrared detection - since they are sensors.

You can do pretty crazy things.

Being invisable to a camera doesn't mean that a dog boy or psi stalker can't sense you with their abilities.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Being invisable to a camera doesn't mean that a dog boy or psi stalker can't sense you with their abilities.

Read above.

Mystic Invisibility does EXACTLY that.

So the combination of:

Invisibility: Superior - no visible detection of any kind and almost no sound
Invisibility to Sensors - no sensors of any type other than a mark 1 eyeball can detect you
Mystic Invisibility - no magical or psionic means can detect you

theoretically if you were in a room with someone, they MIGHT have a chance to hear you. (You can avoid this, however, by using another Combat Magic spell, Stealthwalk, which makes it so you dont make sound, even if you bump into things, as long as you're movingly at a slow-ish pace)

otherwise... renders you absolutely undetectable.

Also, my point above was in reference to the supposed "magic sensors" that we are told the CS has (but aren't detailed). My original point was "if you use Invisibility you could fly up and drop off something on a balcony without being seen, and IF the "magic sensors" have a really huge range, you could compensate with Invisibility to Sensors". It had nothing to do with Dog Boys or Psi Stalkers, which WOULD be able to detect you unless you used Mystic Invisibility, which specifically counters their abilities. Not that it matters since their range isn't nearly large enough to pick up someone coming up to drop[ something off on a balcony unless they were standing on the balcony at the time.

I'm remembering how in PF, even Invisibility Superior could be seen by "See the Invisible" but it was like a translucent ghostly image. I think that only applies to the PF versions though, I've never seen that in the Rifts version, maybe Rifts has stronger invisibility than PF... MEGA-invisibility, so to speak.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Invisibility to Sensors makes you completely undetectable by any sensor.
Is the thing that detects magic a sensor?
If yes, then the spell does what it says - you're undetectable.

I don't think we can answer this until we find the devices Pepsi Jedi was referring to and see whether they only detect people with magic abilities (in which case I agree, Invisibility to Sensors would protect the mage from detection) or magic itself, in which case I'm not sure it would.

The question becomes: does a spell cast on you actually become PART of you? Mesh with your aura or something? Is there reason to think a means of detecting active spells somehow don't work if they're cast on a person who is protected, because the spell counts as part of that person?

One thing to keep in mind here is that Psi-Hounds (RUE 145) apparently can't smell a mage with less than 80 PPE if they don't have any active spells up. PPE from non-supernatural beings only qualifies as "magic energy" for them to smell if it's used in:

spell casting
magic devices
large energy reserves in practitioners and creatures of magic; 80 or more points

Psi-Stalkers (RUE 153) might be more flexible, they don't mention 80, it's a bit unclear how to RP the use of that ability though. They seem to instantly smell even minor psychics entering a room and can trace them (though I don't know if they KNOW they're minor... or even that they're psychics) over time, so maybe they can do that with all mages (even those with 0 PPE) whereas Psi-Hounds can't?

Transferal might be an exception, unclear there. BOM132 implies it would help against the See Aura approach. Since it leaves them with 4 PPE I guess that would work against Psi-Hounds unless they cast a spell... but I don't know if it would guard against Psi-Stalkers.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:If no, (say, a Dog Boy or Psi-stalker), then they can "see" you.

Pg 15 of Mercenary Adventures specifies "high-tech sensory devices", I'm not sure living beings were intended by that phrase.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:FWIW, therei s ALSO Mystic Invisibility (a level lower than Invis to Sensors IIRC)

It's actually 1 levels higher: MS is 7th level spell on pg 17 compared to ITS being 6th level spell on pg 15

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:that makes you immune to detection by non-tech means. Even works against Dog Boys and similar. So if you layer Invis (Superior), Invis to Sensors, and Mystic Invis...

It sure is oddly phrased, it opens with "all forms of mystic detection" then says "all magical and psionic means". It even follows "psionic or mystic sight" showing PSIONIC isn't considered part of MYSTIC, so the opening phrase ought to've been "all forms of mystic or psionic detection"

This raises a similar question though: the CASTER will not be detected: what about magical items on your person? What about PPE actively maintaining a spell, including the PPE maintaining Mystic Invisibility itself?

Perhaps that would protect your unique scent from being identified, but it might still register as an active magical EFFECT somewhere in the area, if Psi-Stalkers can tell the difference.

You guys realize all of this is a moot point if the entry into chi town is equipped with the ULTRA High tech item...

A beaded curtain. Just as you channel everyone through the magic detector you simply channel the entry through a beaded curtain. (Likely more than one, a 50 foot hallway of them if need be) if it moves and you don't SEE anyone moving it. Hose the area with laser fire. Mop up what's left.

This defeats invisibility simple, and invisibility super. By nature or being invisible and trying to enter a CS city, you're either 1) Magical and trying to infiltrate = death or 2) Some hyper advanced technology and trying to infiltrate= death. or 3) Some sort of supernatural/alien creature and trying to infiltrate = death.

This rules out the three spells that might get you past the sensors.

The sensors, dog boys and psistalkers pick up those that aren't reading the game book to carefully check the wording on the spells to know which ones might work.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You guys realize all of this is a moot point if the entry into chi town is equipped with the ULTRA High tech item...

A beaded curtain. Just as you channel everyone through the magic detector you simply channel the entry through a beaded curtain. (Likely more than one, a 50 foot hallway of them if need be) if it moves and you don't SEE anyone moving it. Hose the area with laser fire. Mop up what's left.

This defeats invisibility simple, and invisibility super. By nature or being invisible and trying to enter a CS city, you're either 1) Magical and trying to infiltrate = death or 2) Some hyper advanced technology and trying to infiltrate= death. or 3) Some sort of supernatural/alien creature and trying to infiltrate = death.

This rules out the three spells that might get you past the sensors.

The sensors, dog boys and psistalkers pick up those that aren't reading the game book to carefully check the wording on the spells to know which ones might work.

Your Making a literal textbook strawman here. Literally no one was talking about trying to infiltrate the city. Not one person.

We were talking about the claim in Black Market that people fly up to the balconies (which are on the outside of the arcology) and leave contraband to be picked up by someone else.

The argument was it didn’t work because you’d be seen, to which i replied (paraphrased) that a mage would be better suited as they can turn invisible.

Someone else then brought up the ill-defined “magic sensors”, and i brought up Invisibility to Sensors.

Thats the begining and end of the conversation. No one was talking about a mage trying to just walk into the city.

I dont think anyone disagrees with you that it would still be nearly impossible because the entryways are likely one-in, one-out style. You couldn’t get through because you’d have to touch someone, or be in an enclosed space with someone that cant actially fit two people.

But for flying up and doing the contrband drop.... with a handful of low level spells, its pretty much impossible for the CS to detect.

Now, the guy who has to go out on the balcony and pick it up and get it back into the city? Good luck to that guy, depending on what it is.

Thats why i still think the easiest way to get contraband into the city is Teleport: Lesser. If someone can get you something as simple as a *picture* of an isolated place inside the city (a storeroom, sewer in the lower levels, even an apartment rented by the black market temporarily), you can teleport a big old pile of contraband right into the spot at will. Its not even a lot of PPE, and the range is huge, for our purposes (5 miles per level).

Since all it requires is a picture, the target spot could move daily or even hourly. As long as you have guys on the ground, the stuff can be teleported in and broken down and moved in minutes, assuming the magic sensors can detect the teleportation in the first place.

Teleport: Lesser and its 5 mile per level range is the spell that makes me think that Chi-town and other locations must have an undocumented way to prevent teleportation inside, because otherwise rhere should be explosions going off on a regular basis, especially during and after the war with Tolkeen. 50 lbs is an awful lot of explosive power with the right explosives! I'm now also wondeing what the closet ley line to Chi-town is, because since ley lines disrupt psi-stalker and psi-hound sensing, they'd have a heck of a time denying that area to maguc users to launch attacks. Wait a minute, ley lines increase range by 50%, and we know that Old Chicago has plenty of ley lines and Chi-town is only 80 miles away from Old Chicago, so that would confirm that magic users at least lvl 12 and up (And likely lvl 11, with an 82.5 mi range, and you only need to be within 2 miles of the ley line to get the range boost) could just regularly be terrorizing the residents of Chi-town with packs of frag grenades...or frag missile warheads rigged to go off. If medium warheads weigh under 50lbs, you coukd get the same radius with plasma warheads.

But what if you didn't have magic as an option, how would you smuggle things in then?

A lot of people in the CS buy into the whole 'magic is evil' thing, and are superstitious about it.

What about sneaking it in with crates of food stuffs and other goods, and bribing the customs officers. You know the old fashion way. Maybe attaching fake paperwork that indicates the packages have already gone through the scanners. Wouldn't that work?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You guys realize all of this is a moot point if the entry into chi town is equipped with the ULTRA High tech item...

A beaded curtain. Just as you channel everyone through the magic detector you simply channel the entry through a beaded curtain. (Likely more than one, a 50 foot hallway of them if need be) if it moves and you don't SEE anyone moving it. Hose the area with laser fire. Mop up what's left.

This defeats invisibility simple, and invisibility super. By nature or being invisible and trying to enter a CS city, you're either 1) Magical and trying to infiltrate = death or 2) Some hyper advanced technology and trying to infiltrate= death. or 3) Some sort of supernatural/alien creature and trying to infiltrate = death.

This rules out the three spells that might get you past the sensors.

The sensors, dog boys and psistalkers pick up those that aren't reading the game book to carefully check the wording on the spells to know which ones might work.

Your Making a literal textbook strawman here. Literally no one was talking about trying to infiltrate the city. Not one person.

We were talking about the claim in Black Market that people fly up to the balconies (which are on the outside of the arcology) and leave contraband to be picked up by someone else.

The argument was it didn’t work because you’d be seen, to which i replied (paraphrased) that a mage would be better suited as they can turn invisible.

Someone else then brought up the ill-defined “magic sensors”, and i brought up Invisibility to Sensors.

Thats the begining and end of the conversation. No one was talking about a mage trying to just walk into the city.

I dont think anyone disagrees with you that it would still be nearly impossible because the entryways are likely one-in, one-out style. You couldn’t get through because you’d have to touch someone, or be in an enclosed space with someone that cant actially fit two people.

But for flying up and doing the contrband drop.... with a handful of low level spells, its pretty much impossible for the CS to detect.

Now, the guy who has to go out on the balcony and pick it up and get it back into the city? Good luck to that guy, depending on what it is.

Thats why i still think the easiest way to get contraband into the city is Teleport: Lesser. If someone can get you something as simple as a *picture* of an isolated place inside the city (a storeroom, sewer in the lower levels, even an apartment rented by the black market temporarily), you can teleport a big old pile of contraband right into the spot at will. Its not even a lot of PPE, and the range is huge, for our purposes (5 miles per level).

Since all it requires is a picture, the target spot could move daily or even hourly. As long as you have guys on the ground, the stuff can be teleported in and broken down and moved in minutes, assuming the magic sensors can detect the teleportation in the first place.

Being the one that mentioned the magic sensors in response to magical infiltration, yes... some of us were. lol Sorry.

As for the teleport, if memory serves that's been broken by the fact that the city was sectioned off through multiple blast walls and what have you to prevent that sort of thing. It's been a while since I looked it up.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You guys realize all of this is a moot point if the entry into chi town is equipped with the ULTRA High tech item...

A beaded curtain. Just as you channel everyone through the magic detector you simply channel the entry through a beaded curtain. (Likely more than one, a 50 foot hallway of them if need be) if it moves and you don't SEE anyone moving it. Hose the area with laser fire. Mop up what's left.

One trick for that would be to wait for someone else to walk through it and try to follow immediately behind them so you can follow in their wake.

Otherwise, you could try to roll/wriggle very slowly along the ground to cause minimal disturbance to the hanging bead curtain, which might make it a harder perception roll for the guards to notice.

A skelebot might be more suited to the task, I think they'd have more patience for staring at a curtain and detecting minute changes in it.

It also might be a good to electrify the metal beads so nobody can touch them without getting zapped unless you de-activate the current.

dreicunan wrote:magic users at least lvl 12 and up (And likely lvl 11, with an 82.5 mi range, and you only need to be within 2 miles of the ley line to get the range boost) could just regularly be terrorizing the residents of Chi-tow

I'm wondering now if they'd even have to do it DIRECTLY. Would they even need to go to Old Chicago or could they do this through proxy? Being 6th level you can fit 3 charges of Teleport Lesser on a Talisman which is much more versatile than a Scroll since the user doesn't need to be literate, and I'm guessing doesn't need to speak any words to activate them either.

One thing I've never been very certain on though is...

1) can spells from scrolls/talismans get increases to range/duration from being near (<2 miles) ley lines?
2) if so: does this happen when the scroll/talisman is created on near a ley line, activated near a ley line, or does it require both?

The answer would give ideas of how flexible these tactics are.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:if memory serves that's been broken by the fact that the city was sectioned off through multiple blast walls and what have you to prevent that sort of thing. It's been a while since I looked it up.

You mean something like you can't teleport a bomb into an environmentally sealed vehicle or something like that?

DD The Shmey wrote:But what if you didn't have magic as an option, how would you smuggle things in then?

A lot of people in the CS buy into the whole 'magic is evil' thing, and are superstitious about it.

What about sneaking it in with crates of food stuffs and other goods, and bribing the customs officers. You know the old fashion way. Maybe attaching fake paperwork that indicates the packages have already gone through the scanners. Wouldn't that work?

All that happens too. Its detailed in Black Market.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You guys realize all of this is a moot point if the entry into chi town is equipped with the ULTRA High tech item...

A beaded curtain. Just as you channel everyone through the magic detector you simply channel the entry through a beaded curtain. (Likely more than one, a 50 foot hallway of them if need be) if it moves and you don't SEE anyone moving it. Hose the area with laser fire. Mop up what's left.

This defeats invisibility simple, and invisibility super. By nature or being invisible and trying to enter a CS city, you're either 1) Magical and trying to infiltrate = death or 2) Some hyper advanced technology and trying to infiltrate= death. or 3) Some sort of supernatural/alien creature and trying to infiltrate = death.

This rules out the three spells that might get you past the sensors.

The sensors, dog boys and psistalkers pick up those that aren't reading the game book to carefully check the wording on the spells to know which ones might work.

Your Making a literal textbook strawman here. Literally no one was talking about trying to infiltrate the city. Not one person.

We were talking about the claim in Black Market that people fly up to the balconies (which are on the outside of the arcology) and leave contraband to be picked up by someone else.

The argument was it didn’t work because you’d be seen, to which i replied (paraphrased) that a mage would be better suited as they can turn invisible.

Someone else then brought up the ill-defined “magic sensors”, and i brought up Invisibility to Sensors.

Thats the begining and end of the conversation. No one was talking about a mage trying to just walk into the city.

I dont think anyone disagrees with you that it would still be nearly impossible because the entryways are likely one-in, one-out style. You couldn’t get through because you’d have to touch someone, or be in an enclosed space with someone that cant actially fit two people.

But for flying up and doing the contrband drop.... with a handful of low level spells, its pretty much impossible for the CS to detect.

Now, the guy who has to go out on the balcony and pick it up and get it back into the city? Good luck to that guy, depending on what it is.

Thats why i still think the easiest way to get contraband into the city is Teleport: Lesser. If someone can get you something as simple as a *picture* of an isolated place inside the city (a storeroom, sewer in the lower levels, even an apartment rented by the black market temporarily), you can teleport a big old pile of contraband right into the spot at will. Its not even a lot of PPE, and the range is huge, for our purposes (5 miles per level).

Since all it requires is a picture, the target spot could move daily or even hourly. As long as you have guys on the ground, the stuff can be teleported in and broken down and moved in minutes, assuming the magic sensors can detect the teleportation in the first place.

Being the one that mentioned the magic sensors in response to magical infiltration, yes... some of us were. lol Sorry.

As for the teleport, if memory serves that's been broken by the fact that the city was sectioned off through multiple blast walls and what have you to prevent that sort of thing. It's been a while since I looked it up.

Teleport Lesser does not need line of sight. You can put stuff down anywhere within range as long as the area is “familiar to them” (which, admittedly, is ill-defined). Other teleportation spells and abilities list a picture being good enough to count as “familiar” enough to get an 80% chance to make the teleport (though, ironically, Teleport: Lesser appears to have no chance of failure).

Theres nothing anywhere (that im aware of) that says teleportation is impeded in any way by walls of any kind. Doesnt matter how many walls and cordons there are, if i am “familiar” with the area, i can teleport stuff in.

I dont think this is intended to work; IMO Kevin likely intended the fortress cities to be Impervious to such tactics, but just never detailed it (as he is often baffled that people didnt just automatically understand things which were obvious to him, as the creator). As it stands, though, it would work.

If environmental vehicles are impervious then I imagine environmental fortresses might be too... but I'm not sure if vehicles are or not.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You guys realize all of this is a moot point if the entry into chi town is equipped with the ULTRA High tech item...

A beaded curtain. Just as you channel everyone through the magic detector you simply channel the entry through a beaded curtain. (Likely more than one, a 50 foot hallway of them if need be) if it moves and you don't SEE anyone moving it. Hose the area with laser fire. Mop up what's left.

One trick for that would be to wait for someone else to walk through it and try to follow immediately behind them so you can follow in their wake.

Right... because the militarized nation, who can build nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks, and by and large have a cultural fear of magic and the supernatural, and want none of that in their mega fortress cities, would build defenses at their entrances and just allow multiple people though their screening at once. Or if they DID actually have the beaded curtain. Wouldn't watch for someone holding them open so an invisible person could sneak in behind them.

Why go to all the trouble of the invisibility and all if your NPCs are that stupid? "Look! Your shoelace is untied" should have ya covered.

Axelmania wrote:
Otherwise, you could try to roll/wriggle very slowly along the ground to cause minimal disturbance to the hanging bead curtain, which might make it a harder perception roll for the guards to notice.

Right. Again, because they're so stupid they wouldn't have them reach the floor, to .... purposefully prevent some idiot from trying to crawl under them. I mean it's just the safety and security of their fortress city. Sure. Have them cut off at.. hip level? Knee? Let the baddies just limbo on in....

Axelmania wrote:
A skelebot might be more suited to the task, I think they'd have more patience for staring at a curtain and detecting minute changes in it.

The CS would have multiple redundancy but have MILLIONS of troops under arms. They would likely have multiple skelebots in the hallway, Dogboys, psi stalkers and normal troops, along with power armor troops at the points of egress.

Axelmania wrote:
It also might be a good to electrify the metal beads so nobody can touch them without getting zapped unless you de-activate the current.

I suppose. I wasn't proposing the be all and end all of the defenses be the beaded curtain. Just that a simple beaded curtain would put a stop to the above mentioned infiltration tactic. You could do lots of different things.

Axelmania wrote:If environmental vehicles are impervious then I imagine environmental fortresses might be too... but I'm not sure if vehicles are or not.

Vehicles are not impervious to teleportation, environmentally-sealed or not.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Axelmania wrote:
Otherwise, you could try to roll/wriggle very slowly along the ground to cause minimal disturbance to the hanging bead curtain, which might make it a harder perception roll for the guards to notice.

Right. Again, because they're so stupid they wouldn't have them reach the floor, to .... purposefully prevent some idiot from trying to crawl under them. I mean it's just the safety and security of their fortress city. Sure. Have them cut off at.. hip level? Knee? Let the baddies just limbo on in....

This back and fourth about the length of the beaded curtain made me giggle.

The image invoked by Axelmania, of a powerful wizard who has spent his life researching the dark arcane arts, a mage who has battled demons and the very elemental forces themselves and came out the victor, who is now crawling on his hands and knees trying to duck under a simple beaded curtain. The sweat draining down his brow as he awkwardly snakes and wriggles past the dreaded beads -- knowing all to well that if he makes one small wrong move, he will be immediately be killed by hundreds of soldiers.

This image juxtaposed with Pepsi Jedi's response of righteous indignation at the absurdity that the beaded curtains not reach all the way down to the floor.

You know conversations like this are the reason why I keep coming here. I love you guys <3

DD The Shmey wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Axelmania wrote:
Otherwise, you could try to roll/wriggle very slowly along the ground to cause minimal disturbance to the hanging bead curtain, which might make it a harder perception roll for the guards to notice.

Right. Again, because they're so stupid they wouldn't have them reach the floor, to .... purposefully prevent some idiot from trying to crawl under them. I mean it's just the safety and security of their fortress city. Sure. Have them cut off at.. hip level? Knee? Let the baddies just limbo on in....

This back and fourth about the length of the beaded curtain made me giggle.

The image invoked by Axelmania, of a powerful wizard who has spent his life researching the dark arcane arts, a mage who has battled demons and the very elemental forces themselves and came out the victor, who is now crawling on his hands and knees trying to duck under a simple beaded curtain. The sweat draining down his brow as he awkwardly snakes and wriggles past the dreaded beads -- knowing all to well that if he makes one small wrong move, he will be immediately be killed by hundreds of soldiers.

This image juxtaposed with Pepsi Jedi's response of righteous indignation at the absurdity that the beaded curtains not reach all the way down to the floor.

You know conversations like this are the reason why I keep coming here. I love you guys <3

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Teleport Lesser does not need line of sight. You can put stuff down anywhere within range as long as the area is “familiar to them” (which, admittedly, is ill-defined). Other teleportation spells and abilities list a picture being good enough to count as “familiar” enough to get an 80% chance to make the teleport (though, ironically, Teleport: Lesser appears to have no chance of failure).

Right.
I interpret Teleport: Lesser as having the same success/failure chances as normal Teleport spells, but that is arguably a house rule.
Even with those chances, if somebody could find a way to be familiar with a place within Chi-Town, they could stand a good chance of teleporting objects there as far as we know.
One thing about the lack of details in Chi-Town, is that we're free to make up our own stuff if we want to.
If a GM wants to say that there's an anti-teleportation force field that protects the city, then there is one... until future canon comes along to confirm or deny that kind of thing.

Theres nothing anywhere (that im aware of) that says teleportation is impeded in any way by walls of any kind. Doesnt matter how many walls and cordons there are, if i am “familiar” with the area, i can teleport stuff in.

100% correct.

I dont think this is intended to work; IMO Kevin likely intended the fortress cities to be Impervious to such tactics, but just never detailed it (as he is often baffled that people didnt just automatically understand things which were obvious to him, as the creator). As it stands, though, it would work.

That is a very apt description of Kevin!

I once got to speak to Kevin at an Open House, and asked about general teleportation attacks on Chi-Town:
viewtopic.php?p=2744016&sid=31ab73e290f2df0d39a02244c3b5dfae#p2744016

Why don't mages and dragons just teleport into Chi-Town and attack?
Well, they probably DO. But it's a huge city full of cops and soldiers as well as civilians, so it's kind of a suicide mission.

This indicates that he not only allows for the possibility of enemies teleporting into the city, his head-cannon is that they DO teleport in from time to time... but the defenses inside are more than sufficient to kill any such attackers, even including dragons and such.

I'm not exactly sure how that works with teleporting contraband or bombs into the city, except that I believe his answer would be essentially the same:
Something along the lines of "I'm sure they do, but it's a huge mega-damage city full of cops and soldiers as well as civilians, so smugglers tend to get caught, and the bombs tend not to do much damage."

I believe it was during this same conversation that I described my non-canon interpretation that the more devastating any terrorist attack on Chi-Town would normally be, the more likely it is to be detected by CS Psychics.
Kevin listened, and asked me to email him the math and details. He seemed to like the idea, although he never got back to me about it after I emailed him.

Here's where I originally did the math:
viewtopic.php?p=2680808&sid=18c542ab852dd356787856221b4745e4#p2680808

In the case of simple smuggling operations, the number of psychics wouldn't be likely to matter because few people would be significantly affected.
Even if there was something like a gun getting smuggled in for an assassination attempt, or drugs getting smuggled in that somebody important (if only to a psychic or a number of psychics) would overdose on, the smuggling itself would be less likely IMO to trigger visions than the assassination or overdose itself.
So I assume that there are both magical and non-magical means of smuggling things in and out of Chi-Town that are being utilized.

Heck, remember that the City Rat OCC is designed for characters who live inside the CS cities, and who may have never gone outside.
Then look at their standard equipment list.
It's pretty clear that at least the Chi-Town downside is less than fully secure!

All of which is, IMO, good adventure-fodder.

You know, if I *did* want to teleport stuff into a city, a good option would be a Mystic.

Find someone familiar with the town. Mind Meld with them. Use their familiarity as your familiarity, and use Teleport: Lesser to deliver your payload. Then kill or Mind Wipe your subject.

Would an inbound teleport trip the psychic senses of a dog boy or psi-stalker? Say, I'm teleporting in a completely mundane brick made out of completely mundane mud and water... sun-baked, the only thing magical involved is the teleport, nothing to actually trip the sixth sense... just pure psychic/magic scent.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Teleport Lesser does not need line of sight. You can put stuff down anywhere within range as long as the area is “familiar to them” (which, admittedly, is ill-defined). Other teleportation spells and abilities list a picture being good enough to count as “familiar” enough to get an 80% chance to make the teleport (though, ironically, Teleport: Lesser appears to have no chance of failure).

Right.
I interpret Teleport: Lesser as having the same success/failure chances as normal Teleport spells, but that is arguably a house rule.
Even with those chances, if somebody could find a way to be familiar with a place within Chi-Town, they could stand a good chance of teleporting objects there as far as we know.
One thing about the lack of details in Chi-Town, is that we're free to make up our own stuff if we want to.
If a GM wants to say that there's an anti-teleportation force field that protects the city, then there is one... until future canon comes along to confirm or deny that kind of thing.

Theres nothing anywhere (that im aware of) that says teleportation is impeded in any way by walls of any kind. Doesnt matter how many walls and cordons there are, if i am “familiar” with the area, i can teleport stuff in.

100% correct.

I dont think this is intended to work; IMO Kevin likely intended the fortress cities to be Impervious to such tactics, but just never detailed it (as he is often baffled that people didnt just automatically understand things which were obvious to him, as the creator). As it stands, though, it would work.

That is a very apt description of Kevin!

I once got to speak to Kevin at an Open House, and asked about general teleportation attacks on Chi-Town:
https://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/ ... e#p2744016

Why don't mages and dragons just teleport into Chi-Town and attack?
Well, they probably DO. But it's a huge city full of cops and soldiers as well as civilians, so it's kind of a suicide mission.

This indicates that he not only allows for the possibility of enemies teleporting into the city, his head-cannon is that they DO teleport in from time to time... but the defenses inside are more than sufficient to kill any such attackers, even including dragons and such.

I'm not exactly sure how that works with teleporting contraband or bombs into the city, except that I believe his answer would be essentially the same:
Something along the lines of "I'm sure they do, but it's a huge mega-damage city full of cops and soldiers as well as civilians, so smugglers tend to get caught, and the bombs tend not to do much damage."

I believe it was during this same conversation that I described my non-canon interpretation that the more devastating any terrorist attack on Chi-Town would normally be, the more likely it is to be detected by CS Psychics.
Kevin listened, and asked me to email him the math and details. He seemed to like the idea, although he never got back to me about it after I emailed him.

Here's where I originally did the math:
https://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/ ... 4#p2680808

In the case of simple smuggling operations, the number of psychics wouldn't be likely to matter because few people would be significantly affected.
Even if there was something like a gun getting smuggled in for an assassination attempt, or drugs getting smuggled in that somebody important (if only to a psychic or a number of psychics) would overdose on, the smuggling itself would be less likely IMO to trigger visions than the assassination or overdose itself.
So I assume that there are both magical and non-magical means of smuggling things in and out of Chi-Town that are being utilized.

Heck, remember that the City Rat OCC is designed for characters who live inside the CS cities, and who may have never gone outside.
Then look at their standard equipment list.
It's pretty clear that at least the Chi-Town downside is less than fully secure!

All of which is, IMO, good adventure-fodder.

Further, the existence of the NTSET also makes it clear that the lower levels, at least, are far from secure or unable to be breached/snuck into by nasties.

Teleport: Lesser does have the 50lb limitation, meaning it is of limited use in smuggling in explosives or bombs, but is great for books and other small contraband.

Mark Hall wrote:You know, if I *did* want to teleport stuff into a city, a good option would be a Mystic.

Find someone familiar with the town. Mind Meld with them. Use their familiarity as your familiarity, and use Teleport: Lesser to deliver your payload. Then kill or Mind Wipe your subject.

Some kinds of scrying would probably work as well.
Astral travel... well, again, the CS has masses of psychics, statistically likely to include more astral travelers than you could shake a psi-sword at.
But there are ways to become familiar with a location, and Mind Meld is a good one!

Would an inbound teleport trip the psychic senses of a dog boy or psi-stalker? Say, I'm teleporting in a completely mundane brick made out of completely mundane mud and water... sun-baked, the only thing magical involved is the teleport, nothing to actually trip the sixth sense... just pure psychic/magic scent.

IIRC, they can sense magic in use, so the answer would depend on if the spell is "in use" at both ends, or only where the caster is.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Further, the existence of the NTSET also makes it clear that the lower levels, at least, are far from secure or unable to be breached/snuck into by nasties.

True!

Teleport: Lesser does have the 50lb limitation, meaning it is of limited use in smuggling in explosives or bombs, but is great for books and other small contraband.

Terrorists could attempt to smuggle in the parts to a bomb, as long as those parts are <50 lbs each.
Of course, taking more time to smuggle it in, and to later assemble it, means a longer operation that's more likely to be discovered at some point before the bomb goes off.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:You know, if I *did* want to teleport stuff into a city, a good option would be a Mystic.

Find someone familiar with the town. Mind Meld with them. Use their familiarity as your familiarity, and use Teleport: Lesser to deliver your payload. Then kill or Mind Wipe your subject.

Some kinds of scrying would probably work as well.
Astral travel... well, again, the CS has masses of psychics, statistically likely to include more astral travelers than you could shake a psi-sword at.
But there are ways to become familiar with a location, and Mind Meld is a good one!

Well, I've talked about my view of the CS and their use of psychics before... when you have a population as large as theirs, the statistical likelihood of accurate divination goes way up.

Mark Hall wrote:Well, I've talked about my view of the CS and their use of psychics before... when you have a population as large as theirs, the statistical likelihood of accurate divination goes way up.

FWIW... I threw some math at that a while back. Out of 100 random people, ~2.16 would have Clairvoyance (via either Minor or Major Psionics, not counting Masters). So if there's a million folks in Chi-Town, there would be 21,600 Clairvoyants.

Teleport: Lesser's low cost also has to be considered. If you are a LLW on a ley line, you can spam it once a round for as long as you have explosives to send without spending a single point of your own PPE.

Also, as far as getting explosives in goes, if 1950s US technology can produce the 51lb W-54, I'm pretty sure they could find a way to lighten it under the 50lb mark. Now, I've always been a little unclear how much the higher yield versions weighed (the reworked warheads for the AIM-26A were 250 tons, the Walleye was 600 tons), but the Little Fellers that got tested were 22 and 18 tons of TNT equivalent. Teleporting a few of those into Chi-town is going to mess the place up pretty badly, and the psychological effects on the residents would be pretty intense.

The Firefly nuclear bomb fits inside a torpedo that is able to be carried inside a medium range missile...
Just an FYI

Mack wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Well, I've talked about my view of the CS and their use of psychics before... when you have a population as large as theirs, the statistical likelihood of accurate divination goes way up.

FWIW... I threw some math at that a while back. Out of 100 random people, ~2.16 would have Clairvoyance (via either Minor or Major Psionics, not counting Masters). So if there's a million folks in Chi-Town, there would be 21,600 Clairvoyants.

My numbers are a bit less generous (1 in 240, assuming approximately 1 in 4 people is psychic, 1 in 3 psychics is Sensitive, and 1 in 20 have Clairvoyance... though looking at that number now, it seems the 1 in 20 is WAY low), but you still wind up with a lot of clairvoyants, and the means to organize them.

Mark Hall wrote: I've talked about my view of the CS and their use of psychics before... when you have a population as large as theirs, the statistical likelihood of accurate divination goes way up.

Exactly.

It's an interesting concept and was a fun read nonetheless, but...

“They've been planning this for weeks now, and chose a time to do it when Private McMillan (who is on the black market pay roll) is on duty watching the monitors for section 438 through 454. The balcony they chose was one that doesn't have overlapping sensors. The external monitoring camera for that balcony has been "on the fritz" and has had a fix-it maintenance ticket in for about a month now, but it keeps getting "rescheduled". The only thing they need to worry about are the external patrols, whose flight plans are all constantly changing and sensitive.”

Not to mention the Dog Boy patrols, ISS patrols, and various others. Then there's the possibility that the repairs were actually completed and no-one told them. And the area was recently upgraded with overlapping sensors and MDC windows.

“The first Samas opens fire with a pair of mini missiles, while the second Samas spots the target and turns to pursue (third action).
Private McMillan, who wants to keep his job now, radio's back "Yeah looks like he's got a fake IFF transponder", and activates/turns off the safety on the auto guns (third action).”

Only instead of SAMAS it's CS hover cycles or rocket cycles that move as fast or faster and also carry more than “a pair” of mini-missiles, or attack choppers with short or medium range missiles so they don't waste time pursuing the criminal they just blast him out of the sky. Plus the arcology itself likely mounts mini, small, medium and long range missiles, so there's a greater likely hood that the hover bike gets hit by a volley of small or medium range missiles and both vehicle and pilot go up in a ball of flame. Even if it's close to the Burbs the CS gives no effs and wouldn't bat an eye at taking some of the Burbs with the offender to make sure he's dead.

Per Killer Cyborg:

FYI, at the Unofficial Open House tour of the Palladium warehouse, I got to ask Kevin about this sort of thing:
Why don't mages and dragons just teleport into Chi-Town and attack?
Well, they probably DO. But it's a huge city full of cops and soldiers as well as civilians, so it's kind of a suicide mission.

Mark Hall wrote:

Mack wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Well, I've talked about my view of the CS and their use of psychics before... when you have a population as large as theirs, the statistical likelihood of accurate divination goes way up.

FWIW... I threw some math at that a while back. Out of 100 random people, ~2.16 would have Clairvoyance (via either Minor or Major Psionics, not counting Masters). So if there's a million folks in Chi-Town, there would be 21,600 Clairvoyants.

My numbers are a bit less generous (1 in 240, assuming approximately 1 in 4 people is psychic, 1 in 3 psychics is Sensitive, and 1 in 20 have Clairvoyance... though looking at that number now, it seems the 1 in 20 is WAY low), but you still wind up with a lot of clairvoyants, and the means to organize them.

Yea, I went a bit further. For example, a Minor Sensitive has a 1/24 chance of his first power being Clairvoyance, and a 1/23 chance of his second power. Plus some other mathematical shenanigans (especially with Majors who are a bit more complicated).

I completely agree with your concept. Recruit a few hundred (or thousand) volunteers and give them an "app on their phone" (for lack of a better description) to report any visions. Feed that into a basic AI to look for trends... pretty good warning system.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Right... because the militarized nation, who can build nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks, and by and large have a cultural fear of magic and the supernatural, and want none of that in their mega fortress cities, would build defenses at their entrances and just allow multiple people though their screening at once.

If one is undetectable, they wouldn't perceive it as multiple people.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Or if they DID actually have the beaded curtain. Wouldn't watch for someone holding them open so an invisible person could sneak in behind them.

I'm not talking about someone standing there and holding it open, I mean waiting by the beads for someone to come through who 100% belongs there and trying to enter a half-step behind them so that the beads hitting you might not be easily perceptible compared to the residual momentum in the beads left in the first legitimate entrant's wake.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:because they're so stupid they wouldn't have them reach the floor, to .... purposefully prevent some idiot from trying to crawl under them. I mean it's just the safety and security of their fortress city. Sure. Have them cut off at.. hip level? Knee? Let the baddies just limbo on in....

You misread. Notice I said MINIMAL disturbance, not NO disturbance. This implies the beads are low enough to be disturbed by the ground-roller. I never said anything about them being raised or there being a gap.

Instead: there would simply be reduced visible movement the lower down (and slower) you moved through them.

You might also have impatient guards (if this is a busy entrance) not waiting for beads to come to a natural stop from the previous entrant, or minor fluctuations from air currents. Depends on how heavy these beads are. If they're super heavy then they should come to a rest faster and resist breezes.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The CS would have multiple redundancy but have MILLIONS of troops under arms. They would likely have multiple skelebots in the hallway, Dogboys, psi stalkers and normal troops, along with power armor troops at the points of egress.

Agree 100%. I think the Psi-Hounds would be focusing on using their noses instead of looking at a curtain, of course.

In fact, it might work better to just have a motion-detector camera aimed at the beads which beeps any time a certain amount of movement measurably occurs.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I wasn't proposing the be all and end all of the defenses be the beaded curtain. Just that a simple beaded curtain would put a stop to the above mentioned infiltration tactic.

It would be a very useful countermeasure, but I do think there are tactics to reduce the movement to make it harder to notice, particularly as troops get tired and less observant of the forever-boring beads, with their attention divided on other things, like looking at the people lining up. That's why I think an alarm system which detects the beads might work better.

Perhaps a "bead tunnel" with a sealed door on both ends, so you know when to actually focus on the beads?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Vehicles are not impervious to teleportation, environmentally-sealed or not.

Dragons-as-kittens teleporting into Glitter Boy lunchboxes then?

DD The Shmey wrote:The image invoked by Axelmania, of a powerful wizard who has spent his life researching the dark arcane arts, a mage who has battled demons and the very elemental forces themselves and came out the victor, who is now crawling on his hands and knees trying to duck under a simple beaded curtain. The sweat draining down his brow as he awkwardly snakes and wriggles past the dreaded beads -- knowing all to well that if he makes one small wrong move, he will be immediately be killed by hundreds of soldiers.

Here's the thing... if we're already under the idea that the combination of Mystic Invisibility and Invisibility to Sensors will shield the magic energy of Invisibility Superior being active, it should shield other spells too, right?

So you might for example, "Shrink Self to Six Inches" to very much minimize how much you disturb the beads, or use the Temporal spell D-Phase so that you don't disturb them at all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:One thing about the lack of details in Chi-Town, is that we're free to make up our own stuff if we want to.
If a GM wants to say that there's an anti-teleportation force field that protects the city, then there is one... until future canon comes along to confirm or deny that kind of thing.

I have a pet theory that the Vanguard come by on the regularly to top up the perimeters of very very big Protection Circle: Superior (is there even a maximum size?) which they can activate to keep out Supernatural Beings, limiting magical invaders to non-supernatural ones. Invaders of course, may find out about this and try to figure out how far out these circles can be found and try to damage them to remove their protections.

Of course we're sorta lacking rules on what happens if a protection circle spell (simple or superior) is activated when a supernatural being is already inside, if they get thrown in there against their will, etc.

Palladium Fantasy had rules (damage per melee round) for Circle Masters' circles which I guess could be borrowed easily enough, but I'm not sure if that's 100% legal to use them, or if they ought to be equivalent.

Mark Hall wrote:Find someone familiar with the town. Mind Meld with them. Use their familiarity as your familiarity, and use Teleport: Lesser to deliver your payload. Then kill or Mind Wipe your subject.

Perhaps for this reason, the Coalition isn't just picky about who is allowed to enter, but also who is allowed to leave? Or restricts which parts of the city can be visited?

People familiar with MANY parts of the city may be considered the greatest security risks and least likely to be permitted to leave without some kind of protection for their knowledge?

Maybe even mind-wiping them before they leave of critical geographic info? You might need to get a Mind Bleeder to use Mental Block Removal to gain access to it?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Teleport: Lesser does have the 50lb limitation, meaning it is of limited use in smuggling in explosives or bombs, but is great for books and other small contraband.

Unless you smuggle in some Talismans of Reduce Weight from the Palladium world.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Astral travel... well, again, the CS has masses of psychics, statistically likely to include more astral travelers than you could shake a psi-sword at.

I sometimes wonder what the astral coexistance landscape might look like around Chi-Town.

Although you will have some astral projectors who can use Psi-Sword, most probably can't, so it would just be a lot of fist-fights, grappling, roundhouse kicks, etc. of presumably naked humans unless there's something I missed about the Astral Body including some form of clothing.

Meanwhile, those other sensitives with see the invisible would be greeted to quite a show, might be kind of terrifying to those who know to look, but it might not be clear when to actually turn on See the Invisible to catch those shows.

... im in Hawaii at the moment, so im nowhere near my books...

Is there a spell that shrinks the caster?

*that* coupled with Invis (Lesser or Superior), Invis to Sensors and Mystic Invis would PROBABLY let you get past the doors, if you could get small enough.

You could enter the one-at-a-time cordon with a legitimate entrant easily that way.

A dragon could do it, at least (they could shapeshift into something small, then turn invisible/mystic invis/invis to sensors.)

Still, seems a bit risky when you're a lot better off using your magic to just get the contraband inside without exposing yourself.

Here is a better question.
Why are we presuming that the CS is some how not only perfect... but that none of the officers are corrupt?
I mean literally every single example we have of canonical CS units and police... are all full of corrupt people. From Col. "Juicergate" down to the police in firetown the CS seems to run on corruption.
Add in that there are quite literally Black Market character class powers that are centered around this (finding, dealing with, and exploiting corrupt individuals) since that is quite literally the Black Markets entire thing …
I suspect that we are making mountains out of molehills and that the simple answer is that the smugglers get stuff in because the officer on duty is busy looking the other way...when its not a CS officer bringing the contraband through themselves!

Think about it. How many mages and psychics are required to smuggle contraband around in OUR world?

eliakon wrote:Here is a better question.
Why are we presuming that the CS is some how not only perfect... but that none of the officers are corrupt?
I mean literally every single example we have of canonical CS units and police... are all full of corrupt people. From Col. "Juicergate" down to the police in firetown the CS seems to run on corruption.
Add in that there are quite literally Black Market character class powers that are centered around this (finding, dealing with, and exploiting corrupt individuals) since that is quite literally the Black Markets entire thing …
I suspect that we are making mountains out of molehills and that the simple answer is that the smugglers get stuff in because the officer on duty is busy looking the other way...when its not a CS officer bringing the contraband through themselves!

Think about it. How many mages and psychics are required to smuggle contraband around in OUR world?

Oh, I totally agree that there's going to be a **** of smuggling and corruption... the Coalition, for all that it talks about humanity, has always fostered a "me-first" attitude in its officers.