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Would anyone buy a book that's made up of the Physical Training, Stage Magician, and Super Sleuth articles from the Rifter, along with similar upgrades for the other Special Training types (Ancient Master, Hunter/Vigilante, and Special Operative), the Ancient Weapon Master from Powers Unlimited 2 (unless that gets folded into the Ancient Master), possibly a few new ones (e.g., Professional Thief), and maybe even something like the Natural Genius from Heroes Unlimited 2 (as a sort of complement to the Physical Training upgrade)? Basically, a book dedicated to heroes who are extraordinary not because of any powers or exotic equipment, but because of the training they've undergone.

this is what I want, all tied in with Cascade as the setting for it.

One book as opposed to dragging around four or five? Yes please!

Oh, and this book would also be a perfect place for a consolidated skill list and an expanded set of Skill Programs.

As I envision it, the only skill-related stuff that it wouldn't cover would be the Aliens and Hardware stuff: the space pilots, gadgeteers, and so on. Aliens Unlimited covers the former; and when and if it gets published, Hardware Unlimited will cover the latter. And while Mystic Study is technically a kind of training, it's not skill-based and deals instead with exotic abilities rather than sheer proficiency. By contrast, this book would center around the notion of a hero who is cool because he's just that good at what he does.

I dunno what I'd do with the Ancient Master, its kinda legit as it is. I think the geniuses could use some gadgetry

One reason why I'm not talking about giving gadgetry to the geniuses is that I expect that to be covered in Hardware Unlimited (when and if it ever gets published) far better than this hypothetical book could ever manage. That said, I wouldn't mind taking inspiration from Ninjas & Superspies where the Ancient Master and Special Operative are concerned. Heck, Ninjas & Superspies is almost a Heroes Unlimited supplement as written.

as mentioned elsewhere, I'm of a mind that most gadgets just need to be created using a basic layout, because they can be about anything. Now I have nothing against cool inventions and gizmos that have sweet features and stuff either. One just has a 'build your own' feel to it, and the other is more refined.

New areas of training would also be good, not just rewriting stuff that has already been published.

Absolutely. Any suggestions?

indeed, I am all ears. I had considered a Ninja variant of the Secret Operative, but I decided to just stick with what we already had for now.

If you include Ninjas & Superspies among “what we already have”, ninjas are already covered.

yes and no? In Heroes, I try to rebuild these types as the 'ultimate' of their kind. The ultimate operative, the ultimate ninja. I put them at a higher plateau of skill and ability than N&S. I love N&S but Heroes Unlimited is a higher power game, and for special training chars to survive, they need more to play with.

I'm not saying that a Training Unlimited book shouldn't cover them; I think it should. I'm saying that they don't exactly count as something that hasn't been done before.

okay thats fair! But yeah if someone has an idea of something I should add, throw out the ideas. I've been considering more gadgets, like in the secret operative article

…which I'm guessing it's in a Rifter that isn't out in digital form yet?

Again, I'd much rather keep the focus on the training, with new gear kept to a minimum and mostly deferred to Hardware Unlimited.

rifter 83, so yeah not digital just yet.

I've seen Hardware Unlimited at the Open House, I'd really like that to just get done already too I think mostly its that it may not be a big draw so they can't really afford to print and edit anything but the mainstays

Sadly, these days I only do digital: I don't have any Friendly Neighborhood Gaming Stores, and even if I did (or if I decided to buy online) I don't have the space. So the faster PB gets things into digital form, the faster they'll get my money.

But, like the trials and travails of Hardware Unlimited, that's a bit off topic. What's on topic is that you seem to be writing Training Unlimited piece by piece in the Rifter: just convince PB to repackage your articles in a single publication, and you're most of the way there.

Might I suggest Military Ops training? Army Rangers, Marine Force Recon, Navy SEALs, and Air Force Pararescue and Combat Controllers, plus various foreign governments' counterparts. Or would that be covered by Hunter/Vigilante?

Hmmm, that might fall under Weapon Expert, but a military expert might not be a bad role for that. Okay, that's something to think on.

As for convincing PB to do so, my want is to have Cascade be a supplement and have all those items in the sourcebook (maybe refined a bit more), since ideally Cascade is a city without superpowers, since its more Gotham than Metropolis. I think the problem is that it may not sell well, as its a niche concept. Palladium doesn't strike me as a company that can afford to make too many niche books in a year.

The reason I was thinking that Hunter/Vigilante might be a better fit for the ultimate military specialist is the combination of being self-sufficient and comfortable in the wilderness, being good at sneaking around, and being good in combat. A Weapons Expert, by contrast, is good with weaponry — which is nothing to be sneered at, but it's something of a one-trick pony compared to what Rangers, SEALs, Force Recon, Pararescue, and Combat Control do. And speaking of those last two:

I was in the Air Force, so I've got a particular fondness for its two rather unique military specialist divisions. Pararescue specializes in saving lives: parachute into a hostile environment, find a badly injured soldier, stabilize his condition, and extract him. Part military specialist, part fireman (a burning building is definitely a hostile environment), part paramedic. And Combat Control is basically a communications engineer with commando-like training who likewise gets dropped in behind enemy lines and establishes communications to facilitate combat operations. They tend to be attached to other military specialist units rather than operating solo or in groups of just combat controllers: a Force Recon team might have an Air Force Combat Controller assigned to them, for instance.

The only existing material I know of that deals with Military Specialists is in Palladium Books' sci-fi games, e.g. Rifts (in particular, the Coalition States, NGR, and Northern Gun supplements all feature Military Specialist OCCs) and Robotech.

Wish I had talked to you when I was writing the hunter article!

dataweaver wrote:Might I suggest Military Ops training? Army Rangers, Marine Force Recon, Navy SEALs, and Air Force Pararescue and Combat Controllers, plus various foreign governments' counterparts. Or would that be covered by Hunter/Vigilante?

This is kind of what I was thinking. Military and paramilitary training is only vaguely covered by skill programs that are applied to other categories. We don't really see the military training expert in HU2.

well, tell ya guys what, look at the Hunter/Vigilante rewrite, and tell me if you think that's close enough that it could fit with some tweaking. If not, maybe we can look into it as its own idea.

I would; but as I said earlier, I don't do physical books. So I won't be able to comment on the Hunter/Vigilante rewrite until Rifter#83 is out in digital form.

That said, Training Unlimited wouldn't necessarily have to just package your rewrites as is. If your Hunter/Vigilante rewrite is close but not quite what's needed to handle an ultimate Military Specialist, perhaps it could be further expanded.

Looking at the Hunter/Vigilante write-up in HU, a Military Specialist could get all of the same Special Skills, as well as Attribute Bonuses, HP/SDC, Years of Experience, Equipment, and Other Stuff; only Education & Skills would need to change; and even then, not by much: the Wilderness & Hunting Skill Program is very similar to what N&S calls the Guerilla Warfare Military Skill Program; the Manhunter program is most likely what would need to be tweaked to focus a bit more on military matters and a bit less on espionage concerns.

(I'm talking about fairly minor tweaks, like including Military Etiquette and making Military skills available as additional picks: instead of going for things like Forgery or Pick Pockets, the Military Specialist version would go for things like Demolitions or Parachuting.)

Actually, a likely new type of Special Training that might be worth considering would be a First Responder: military field medics, urban paramedics and Fire and Rescue, the aforementioned Pararescue special forces, etc. Maybe even some SWAT. Basically, a guy who is trained to go into dangerous situations like natural disasters or hostage situations and save lives.

Yeah I mean I could see a more military variant of the hunter or the operative, just more options. Keep the ideas coming, I may have more to do!

zerombr wrote:Yeah I mean I could see a more military variant of the hunter or the operative, just more options. Keep the ideas coming, I may have more to do!

More options for the training for any of the heroes would be better. The two military options that exist are too generic.

Personally I prefer the skill packages from BTS over HU. If you are doing a skill based book it may not hurt to do a complete replacement of the old skill programs.

While I agree that HU's skill programs are a little outdated, I'd much prefer to update existing Skill Programs and introduce new skills and Skill Programs rather than to scrap the whole thing in favor of an OCC-like setup like the one found in BTS2e. But yeah; this would be the book in which to address such efforts.

I would recommend looking at the MOS lists found in the Masters Saga Sourcebook (for the now-defunct Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles game) for Skill Program ideas. While some are based heavily on elements unique to the setting (such as anything having to do with mecha or starships), a surprising number of them would translate cleanly into a modern setting.

And even the elements that seem to be setting-specific can usually be adapted to HU elements; though those tend to be more suitable for Hardware Unlimited than they would be for Training Unlimited. Regardless though, they wouldn't be the sort of skills and skill programs you'd find in the non-hero population of HU; they'd mostly be dedicated “skill programs” for the Hardware and/or Robotics power categories rather than being skill programs that are broadly available. And as such, they'd be something that I'd leave to Hardware Unlimited to tackle.

one of the running jokes in our games is that every single worldly martial artist has demolitions, since they all get the basic military package for free

What I like about the BTS skills is that it is an occupation but they are separate from the power category. Some PCCs have there own skills, like you might find in Rifts or Nightbane which is the worst, but most are separate. I think the BTS system that is actually tied to a job is just less generic. The skill programs of HU are just...well generic.

You should be able to be an MD and a Magic user, an Air Force pilot and robot power category, even a research scientist with super powers.

I am actually trying to set up a more BTS style system for Heroes for my convention characters just to make them a tad less generic.

zerombr wrote:one of the running jokes in our games is that every single worldly martial artist has demolitions, since they all get the basic military package for free

Yeah this is the dumbest thing in the world. Special training categories are the only ones that should be run like an OCC from Rifts but with wider selections.

dataweaver wrote:Actually, a likely new type of Special Training that might be worth considering would be a First Responder: military field medics, urban paramedics and Fire and Rescue, the aforementioned Pararescue special forces, etc. Maybe even some SWAT. Basically, a guy who is trained to go into dangerous situations like natural disasters or hostage situations and save lives.

Emergency response heroes are not really covered by power categories. You have to make them such through the skill programs. It would be interesting to see power categories made which focus on helping people rather than hunting them down. Much of HU seems to be about fighting over actually using skills to help people.

zerombr wrote:one of the running jokes in our games is that every single worldly martial artist has demolitions, since they all get the basic military package for free

That would be N&S, which includes Demolitions and Demolitions Disposal in the basic military training package (as opposed to HU, which doesn't). In this regard, I'd go with HU's version of Military (Basic): when I went through Basic Training in the Air Force, I don't recall any sort of Demolitions training.

Put another way, the problem isn't so much the Worldly Martial Artist getting Basic Military (though that's a bit odd, too); it's that Basic Military provides Demolitions and Demolitions Disposal. If they ever do a N&S2e (ha!), I would definitely want to see this sort of thing addressed.

Warshield73 wrote:What I like about the BTS skills is that it is an occupation but they are separate from the power category. Some PCCs have there own skills, like you might find in Rifts or Nightbane which is the worst, but most are separate. I think the BTS system that is actually tied to a job is just less generic. The skill programs of HU are just...well generic.

You should be able to be an MD and a Magic user, an Air Force pilot and robot power category, even a research scientist with super powers.

I am actually trying to set up a more BTS style system for Heroes for my convention characters just to make them a tad less generic.

Two things here: first, something like the hypothetical Training Unlimited should be building on existing HU material, not replacing it; and HU uses Skill Programs, so building on existing material would involve adding more skills and Skill Programs, not replacing Skill Programs with OCCs in all but name. Hardware, Mystic Studies, Physical Training, Robot pilots, and Special Training are the exceptions here, but explicitly so: all of them feature power categories that demand extensive training to use, and so the usual background and education stuff gets swept away in favor of the dedicated training that these power choices require.

Second, Skill Programs can do everything that BTS's occupations can do, and then some; you just need the right Programs. My main complaint with replacing Skill Programs with BTS-style occupations is that you lose the versatility that Skill Programs provide: with the latter, everyone gets one occupation and the only flexibility you have on what skills you get lies in whatever customization options that occupation write-up provides; with Skill Programs, you get to mix and match different Programs as well as select an assortment of Secondary Skills.

As things stand, you can do a research scientist with powers: take an appropriate Power Category (I think Experiment would be appropriate), select a college level of training, and pick at least one Science-based Skill Program. The other two you suggested don't work in the HU framework because HU assumes that both magic and piloting power armor are lifelong pursuits — though oddly enough, it's easier to use the Robot and/or Exoskeleton Pilot Character write-up to represent an Air Force pilot who also knows how to pilot robot vehicles than it is to design a guy who can build and pilot robot vehicles.

But that's more of a Hardware Unlimited thing to address.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Emergency response heroes are not really covered by power categories. You have to make them such through the skill programs. It would be interesting to see power categories made which focus on helping people rather than hunting them down. Much of HU seems to be about fighting over actually using skills to help people.

That's how it is now, yes. But that's why I'm suggesting a new Special Training category for them. If you want to play a detective, you have two choices: pick appropriate Skill Programs, or take the Super Sleuth power category. The former is combined with a power category (so you can be, say, an Experiment or Mutant who has been trained as a detective); the latter is a power category, and as such grants your detective training-based abilities that the other guy doesn't have.

What I'm suggesting is a Special Training option that is to emergency personnel as Super Sleuth is to detectives. Yes, you can still have your pyrokinetic firefighter; but you can also have an otherwise unpowered guy who has trained so thoroughly in dealing with emergency situations that watching him work is like witnessing a work of art.

As zerombr said earlier in this thread, Special Training basically takes something that can be represented through normal education and skills and amps it up to a higher plateau, representing the ultimate of its kind. Essentially, that's what a Training Unlimited book would be all about: training taken up to eleven, so that the training itself qualifies as a power category.

That said, I'd also want to add some Skill Programs for emergency personnel, to facilitate Heroes in other power categories who can do the fire and rescue stuff too — just not on the level that a Special Training rescuer can.

A lot of this expansion can be done simply with updated/expanded skill programs. I'm not saying go the OCC route, but books like CE First Responders(in the preview or final form), and the Robotech Marines book show the general grouping of many useful skills that would make building HU style programs fairly easy. That way you can build an EMT or a Para Rescue as education/occupation based choices. I actually like the idea of the best of the best becoming part of an actual hero class. Z's Rifter articles touch on this here and there, but there is room to expand, and probably fill some holes. FYI, I highly recommend you pick up those Rifters.

Something I've done in my games is make the military elites take a longer training period. Basically a SEAL, SAS, or GB will have a longer training period(which is real life), and there for more skills. The question is that just a time/age sink, or something that needs to be build into a class. Basically, do you want a SF/ex SF character to be able to have powers, or be their own stand alone thing?

RockJock wrote:A lot of this expansion can be done simply with updated/expanded skill programs. I'm not saying go the OCC route, but books like CE First Responders(in the preview or final form), and the Robotech Marines book show the general grouping of many useful skills that would make building HU style programs fairly easy. That way you can build an EMT or a Para Rescue as education/occupation based choices. I actually like the idea of the best of the best becoming part of an actual hero class. Z's Rifter articles touch on this here and there, but there is room to expand, and probably fill some holes. FYI, I highly recommend you pick up those Rifters.

Again, I do intend to pick those up just as soon as they're available in digital form. Physical copies just aren't an option for me.

And yes, I'm very much in favor of adding Skill Programs as you suggest. I'd also add that the Robotech Masters Saga has a lot of good material that could be turned into HU skill programs. It's just that I think that the Rescuer is at least as suitable to be highlighted as a Special Training type as a Stage Magician or a Super Sleuth.

RockJock wrote:Something I've done in my games is make the military elites take a longer training period. Basically a SEAL, SAS, or GB will have a longer training period(which is real life), and there for more skills. The question is that just a time/age sink, or something that needs to be build into a class. Basically, do you want a SF/ex SF character to be able to have powers, or be their own stand alone thing?

I'd like both to be options. The first would be facilitated by the Education and Skill Programs system; the second would be facilitated by a military specialist Special Training type.

(Note that there's already a Military Specialist option in the Education system; I'd like to see that beefed up with some more Military Skill Programs, but it's worth noting that the basics for it are already in place. By contrast, the corresponding Special Training should have the sorts of special skills that the Hunter/Vigilante has.)

i think a special forces power cat would work with First Responder being one of the main focal choices you could have.

The trick is to find the archetypes for it. Rambo is one, the heavy gunner survivalist. What other special forces archetypes would you like to see?

Variety is definitely a positive. I look at my own life experiences, and I have skills all over the place. Somewhere I have a copy of myself as a pseudo Dead Reign character. Basically one of these games where everyone at the table made a game version of themselves. Anyway, it showed an example of some of the variety you could put in a character with a lot of "extra" education. If I find it I will post it.

zerombr wrote:i think a special forces power cat would work with First Responder being one of the main focal choices you could have.

I'd be inclined to reverse that, with a “Rescuer” power cat that has one of its options being the Pararescue that combines the special skills of a Rescuer with military specialist training.

I'd do it this way for two reasons: first, by far the most common take on the military specialist training as a power is exceedingly close to the Hunter/Vigilante, and the Special Operative/Spy can, with minor(?) tweaking, end up representing the other Air Force Special Forces type that I'd like to see represented: the Combat Controller, who is basically a Social Operative/Spy who focuses on surveillance and communication as his “espionage” skills. So the idea is that the special forces stuff gets spread out as focuses of other kinds of Special Training.

Second, I think that a Special Training type that's dedicated primarily to putting yourself in danger to save lives is a very heroic concept; and amping the signature skills of these professions to “ultimate” status would make for a rather unique kind of hero.

In fact, if I were writing up Rifter articles for this, I'd write two: a First Responder/Rescuer article detailing a new kind of Special Training as described above (but without the Pararescue military specialist option) as well as a section on skills and skill programs to allow other power cats to get in on the rescue action; and a Military Specialist article about how to customize the Hunter/Vigilante, Special Operative/Spy, and First Responder/Rescuer (and maybe others?) to represent guys who got their Special Training in the military: not a new power cat, but a “lens” for existing power cats.

In terms of your city (which I haven't read yet, because the PDF version isn't out yet), the First Responder/Rescuer Special Training could be presented as a “pilot program” of Cascade, much like paramedics first came about as a pilot program in Los Angeles where rescue men from the fire department were given emergency medical training so that the victims they rescued wouldn't die in the ambulance on the way to a hospital. In the same way that that created the paramedic, Rescuers might be a new kind of Special Training first seen in Cascade and, if successful, eventually spreading to other cities.

I like what you're selling. Cascade isn't even in print just yet. Overall, it's a summary because I can't get it all into one article. I call it a setting proposal in the article

For the Rescuer's combat capabilities, I'd focus on non-lethal options: frequently, when a Rescuer encounters people that he has to fight, there's a good chance that the person will be a freaked-out victim that he's trying to save. So his “fighting style” should emphasize subduals and disarms. I'd also go with some skills designed to defuse tense situations, talking people down from the ledge (sometimes literally). There might also be some sort of sniper option for cases where a hostage situation goes south and the Rescuer needs to take out a hostage taker who's about to kill a hostage; but that should be a sort of last resort thing, and even then if the Rescuer can, he'll arm himself with some sort of weapon designed to instantly incapacitate rather than kill.

The skills should also include Demolitions Disposal (in case the crisis situation involves bombs) and Demolitions (to safely clear rubble that's trapping people), as well as an ability to evaluate dangerous or unstable terrain so that he can know what he can do without triggering a collapse, a backdraft, or other worsening of the situation. Combined with a variation on the notion of Parkour, he should have the ability to move through even unstable terrain without slowing. This should also include scaling walls, climbing ropes and rappelling, and in general ways to get into and out of hard to reach spots.

Heroes Unlimited doesn't have Mega-Damage, so one would think that Field Surgeon doesn't apply. I'd challenge that, and would come up with a version of Field Surgeon as a special skill that works in the context of Heroes Unlimited to save people's lives who are beyond the help of a paramedic. The main limit to this is that all of his fixes are temporary: they'll keep the victim alive in the short term, but may make the eventual physician's job of facilitating long-term recovery harder. (That said, it's better than being dead.)

There should also be a medical counterpart to his ability to evaluate unstable terrain that lets him know what he can do when moving an injured victim to minimize the risk of worsening the injuries.

Like the Special Operative/Spy, the Rescuer could definitely benefit from specialized gadgetry: protective clothing for when he has to go into hazardous environments; foam grenades to fight fires; a security blanket to protect victims that he has to carry through a hazardous environment; an axe and demolition charges to clear obstacles; zip lines, tools to subdue without killing, and of course a medical kit.

Not every Rescuer would have all of these skills and/or. gear; and even where a skill or gear is common, different focuses would exist within the Special Training that put emphasis on some over others.

Not lethal combat is tricky, but I've actually been working on that too. It's a great idea to meet the two concepts! More responses when I get home

zerombr wrote:Not lethal combat is tricky, but I've actually been working on that too. It's a great idea to meet the two concepts! More responses when I get home

It is.
Right now many of my PCs pack non-lethal weapons rather than guns and blasters... because they are horrifically more effective. Many are 'save or be out of the fight' and more than a few provide simply horrific penalties even on a successful save.
Add in that the only way to save against knock down attacks is a Maintain Balance roll... which you only get if you took Acrobatics or Gymnastics and it gets even worse.

I am still trying to figure out how to do something...but so far the solution has basically been a gentleman's agreement to not use the high end stuff while I try to figure out some way to do subdual that neither makes NLC an instant win nor make it pointless.

Exactly. The entire concept needs reworked

eliakon wrote:It is.
Right now many of my PCs pack non-lethal weapons rather than guns and blasters... because they are horrifically more effective. Many are 'save or be out of the fight' and more than a few provide simply horrific penalties even on a successful save.
Add in that the only way to save against knock down attacks is a Maintain Balance roll... which you only get if you took Acrobatics or Gymnastics and it gets even worse.

I am still trying to figure out how to do something...but so far the solution has basically been a gentleman's agreement to not use the high end stuff while I try to figure out some way to do subdual that neither makes NLC an instant win nor make it pointless.

One of my favorite weapons, especially for a bounty hunter style character, is that goo gun that you had in Phase World, though the AU strap gun is pretty good too.


Daniel Stoker

the strap gun IS nice. But nonlethal is mostly wonky.

Bubble Glue can be really powerful, and most nonlethal stuff just applies negatives. What my overall idea is, is to have less lethal hardware deal SDC damage only*

I tend to believe that people, except in dire emergencies, stop fighting when they hit HP. So a shotgun with one of those beanbag rounds will really sap your SDC, they're not generally going to kill. It should be tougher to take them down non-lethally too, I think.

So I need to just figure out how to make it work. IDK, its a tough concept.




*okay so technically it could do HP damage, but it'd do the absolute minimum that the weapon can do, since its not totally non lethal

zerombr wrote:the strap gun IS nice. But nonlethal is mostly wonky.

Bubble Glue can be really powerful, and most nonlethal stuff just applies negatives. What my overall idea is, is to have less lethal hardware deal SDC damage only*

I tend to believe that people, except in dire emergencies, stop fighting when they hit HP. So a shotgun with one of those beanbag rounds will really sap your SDC, they're not generally going to kill. It should be tougher to take them down non-lethally too, I think.

So I need to just figure out how to make it work. IDK, its a tough concept.




*okay so technically it could do HP damage, but it'd do the absolute minimum that the weapon can do, since its not totally non lethal

I played around with something similar but it never really worked that well. Damage in an RPG is tough anyway. In real life if you shoot someone with a 9mm they go down, if you get hit with a beanbag round you go down. Giving less lethal realistic effects is what makes them the I win button.

In the end the best thing I found was just to reduce duration of the effects less lethal weapons and to use them on the PCs.

there's a few things to consider. The most notable is that less lethal rounds shouldn't have much effect on armored targets

Which generally shouldn't matter for a Rescuer, as his targets usually aren't armored (except for hostage takers; and in those cases, he's better off going in with a sniper buddy if at all possible — he might be able to handle it on his own in a pinch; but that's where player creativity comes in. Better to try to defuse the situation first, employing his “talk them down from the ledge” expertise.

In other words, hostage situations are something that's within his wheelhouse; but they're right at the fringe of it.

zerombr wrote:there's a few things to consider. The most notable is that less lethal rounds shouldn't have much effect on armored targets

Flashbangs and stun grenades.

note the term 'less lethal rounds'

I think its tough to make flashbangs etc effective without making them overpowering. Not to mention that overall they don't work near as well in open areas. I've seen vids of people throwing flashbangs out in a parking lot and it doesn't really hurt much.

on a similar note, cloud of smoke is a damn good spell for lvl 1, and blinding flash is almost as good.

zerombr wrote:note the term 'less lethal rounds'

Sorry, missed that part.