can goblins be vampires?

[Kinghawke]

the books state that creatures of magic & supernatural beings cannot be turned into vampires, but goblins skirt the line there. they keep talking about their "fellow faerie folk", but are they actually creatures of magic themselves?

[Hotrod]

I would say yes; I see them as more humanoid/mortal than faerie, but I don't have a canon answer for you on that.

[Library Ogre]

I would class cobblers as creatures of magic, but non-cobbler goblins as mortal enough to be vampires.

[Warshield73]

This is interesting to me as I only dealt with this once and went the other direction really without too much thought. Since they were talked about as relatives of FF I thought that meant they couldn't be transformed but I see some of the points here.

[The Beast]

I would class cobblers as creatures of magic, but non-cobbler goblins as mortal enough to be vampires.

I see it the same way.

[kiralon]

I would class cobblers as creatures of magic, but non-cobbler goblins as mortal enough to be vampires.

ditto

[Axelmania]

I'm reading page 206 of Western Empire and the way Kev remembers things seems a bit off. He talks about developing Master/Secondary/Wild for Palladium Fantasy (sounds like a change to the 1st/Revised version, which didn't have variants) but then says:

a modified version first saw print in a Rifts® sourcebook

However, prior to Rifts, Beyond the Supernatural pg 181-185 had already introduced the AI/master/secondary split in 1988... so it seems like all Rifts can take credit for introducing to the lore is the "Wild Vampire" and the "Demon Familiar", much like Nightbane introduced the Wampyre/Strigoi.

Anyway, Western Empire 211 covers which races can be vamped:

Any intelligent, mortal humanoid can be turned into a vampire by this method.

Goblins are clearly humanoid, and I think even Cobblers are still mortal, so I don't see why they'd be off limits.

Page 19 of Rifts Vampire Kingdoms might be what people have in mind in this thread, but we don't know that these restrictions would apply to the creation of vampires in other dimensions we know them to inhabit, such as the Palladium World or Nightbane Earth or Beyond Earth.

It's not even 100% clear they would apply to Rifts Earth either, since this section "Vampire Powers" is (pg 14) "More accounts excerpted from the scientific report of Doc Reid."

IE it's just in-universe lore, not actual rules. Which sadly means that VK revised lacks actual word-of-god rules about vampires (get the original book for those!) and is just Reid rambling on like the madman-we-know-him-to-be about RCCs and Seduction Skill percentages and vampires having some "Arrogance Bonus" to "M.A".

Obviously one of his unpublished secret skills is the RPG Design skill from Ninjas and Superspies.

[Reagren Wright]

I'm reading page 206 of Western Empire and the way Kev remembers things seems a bit off. He talks about developing Master/Secondary/Wild for Palladium Fantasy (sounds like a change to the 1st/Revised version, which didn't have variants) but then says:

a modified version first saw print in a Rifts® sourcebook

However, prior to Rifts, Beyond the Supernatural pg 181-185 had already introduced the AI/master/secondary split in 1988... so it seems like all Rifts can take credit for introducing to the lore is the "Wild Vampire" and the "Demon Familiar", much like Nightbane introduced the Wampyre/Strigoi.

Anyway, Western Empire 211 covers which races can be vamped:

Any intelligent, mortal humanoid can be turned into a vampire by this method.

Goblins are clearly humanoid, and I think even Cobblers are still mortal, so I don't see why they'd be off limits.

Page 19 of Rifts Vampire Kingdoms might be what people have in mind in this thread, but we don't know that these restrictions would apply to the creation of vampires in other dimensions we know them to inhabit, such as the Palladium World or Nightbane Earth or Beyond Earth.

You would be correct. The original edition of Vampire Kingdom also said Goblins (D-bees in Rifts)
could be turned into vampire, although vampires wouldn't prefer them for actual food. And
considering official cannon material in Rifter #81 says Wolfen can become vampires, which means
so can goblins, ogres, orcs, trogs, trolls, and giants all. Shape changers, creature of magic, and
supernatural beings are the only beings in PF that cannot be turned into vampires.

It's not even 100% clear they would apply to Rifts Earth either, since this section "Vampire Powers" is (pg 14) "More accounts excerpted from the scientific report of Doc Reid."

IE it's just in-universe lore, not actual rules. Which sadly means that VK revised lacks actual word-of-god rules about vampires (get the original book for those!) and is just Reid rambling on like the madman-we-know-him-to-be about RCCs and Seduction Skill percentages and vampires having some "Arrogance Bonus" to "M.A".

Obviously one of his unpublished secret skills is the RPG Design skill from Ninjas and Superspies.

[kiralon]

I class a cobbler as a creature of magic cause you know, it has innate magical abilities, and shapeshifts. That means a creature of magic to me and not vampireable.

[Axelmania]

I could've sworn Elves were once called a creature of magic somewhere too. Though not as consistently as fairies/changelings.

[Stone Gargoyle]

This inspires me to create a bunch of goblin vampire creatures for my game.

[Axelmania]

Really if vampires have the same stats regardless, it's in your best interest to convert a small a species as possible. You can probably fit a dozen gnome vampires in a human-sized coffin!

Are there any species SMALLER than gnome (the smallest PF race I can recall) which might be turned to vamps?

Also: converting people who are small for other reasons than race (dwarfism, being a child) would make a lot of sense too.

All things considered: why wouldn't vampires be converting newborn infants into vampires? They get all the same physical/mental stats AFAIK but would take up the least amount of space, and it would make it really hard to attack them because nobody wants to stake a baby.

Plus you can get all Trainspotting with the ceiling-crawl.

Maybe a good house-rule would be something like an enhanced % chance of becoming a Wild Vampire instead of a Secondary Vampire when someone is very young? That could explain vampires avoiding it, if they'd prefer vampires to be Secondary and want to maximize chances.

That or abandon static vampire attributes and change them to a template built atop other racial / age stat guidelines.

[Stone Gargoyle]

All things considered: why wouldn't vampires be converting newborn infants into vampires? They get all the same physical/mental stats AFAIK but would take up the least amount of space, and it would make it really hard to attack them because nobody wants to stake a baby.

Plus you can get all Trainspotting with the ceiling-crawl.

Maybe a good house-rule would be something like an enhanced % chance of becoming a Wild Vampire instead of a Secondary Vampire when someone is very young? That could explain vampires avoiding it, if they'd prefer vampires to be Secondary and want to maximize chances.

That or abandon static vampire attributes and change them to a template built atop other racial / age stat guidelines.

I think vampire babies would make great NPCs. Get a swarm of them together and you have a really scary threat.

[Warshield73]

All things considered: why wouldn't vampires be converting newborn infants into vampires? They get all the same physical/mental stats AFAIK but would take up the least amount of space, and it would make it really hard to attack them because nobody wants to stake a baby.

Plus you can get all Trainspotting with the ceiling-crawl.

Maybe a good house-rule would be something like an enhanced % chance of becoming a Wild Vampire instead of a Secondary Vampire when someone is very young? That could explain vampires avoiding it, if they'd prefer vampires to be Secondary and want to maximize chances.

That or abandon static vampire attributes and change them to a template built atop other racial / age stat guidelines.

I think vampire babies would make great NPCs. Get a swarm of them together and you have a really scary threat.

I had always assumed that babies and very young children could not be turned into Vampires because they could not survive the blood draining on night one and two. Small children have very little blood so draining a little blood on night one and two could kill the child prematurely. If they die early they can not become vampires so wondering how this would work.

[Stone Gargoyle]

All things considered: why wouldn't vampires be converting newborn infants into vampires? They get all the same physical/mental stats AFAIK but would take up the least amount of space, and it would make it really hard to attack them because nobody wants to stake a baby.

Plus you can get all Trainspotting with the ceiling-crawl.

Maybe a good house-rule would be something like an enhanced % chance of becoming a Wild Vampire instead of a Secondary Vampire when someone is very young? That could explain vampires avoiding it, if they'd prefer vampires to be Secondary and want to maximize chances.

That or abandon static vampire attributes and change them to a template built atop other racial / age stat guidelines.

I think vampire babies would make great NPCs. Get a swarm of them together and you have a really scary threat.

I had always assumed that babies and very young children could not be turned into Vampires because they could not survive the blood draining on night one and two. Small children have very little blood so draining a little blood on night one and two could kill the child prematurely. If they die early they can not become vampires so wondering how this would work.

IV?

[kiralon]

All things considered: why wouldn't vampires be converting newborn infants into vampires? They get all the same physical/mental stats AFAIK but would take up the least amount of space, and it would make it really hard to attack them because nobody wants to stake a baby.

Plus you can get all Trainspotting with the ceiling-crawl.

Maybe a good house-rule would be something like an enhanced % chance of becoming a Wild Vampire instead of a Secondary Vampire when someone is very young? That could explain vampires avoiding it, if they'd prefer vampires to be Secondary and want to maximize chances.

That or abandon static vampire attributes and change them to a template built atop other racial / age stat guidelines.

I think vampire babies would make great NPCs. Get a swarm of them together and you have a really scary threat.

I had always assumed that babies and very young children could not be turned into Vampires because they could not survive the blood draining on night one and two. Small children have very little blood so draining a little blood on night one and two could kill the child prematurely. If they die early they can not become vampires so wondering how this would work.

Magical Healing has to replace blood as well as fix flesh, sinew and bone. Otherwise you couldn't be back on full HP after a fight with magical healing if blood wasn't replaced.

[Warshield73]

All things considered: why wouldn't vampires be converting newborn infants into vampires? They get all the same physical/mental stats AFAIK but would take up the least amount of space, and it would make it really hard to attack them because nobody wants to stake a baby.

Plus you can get all Trainspotting with the ceiling-crawl.

Maybe a good house-rule would be something like an enhanced % chance of becoming a Wild Vampire instead of a Secondary Vampire when someone is very young? That could explain vampires avoiding it, if they'd prefer vampires to be Secondary and want to maximize chances.

That or abandon static vampire attributes and change them to a template built atop other racial / age stat guidelines.

I think vampire babies would make great NPCs. Get a swarm of them together and you have a really scary threat.

I had always assumed that babies and very young children could not be turned into Vampires because they could not survive the blood draining on night one and two. Small children have very little blood so draining a little blood on night one and two could kill the child prematurely. If they die early they can not become vampires so wondering how this would work.

Magical Healing has to replace blood as well as fix flesh, sinew and bone. Otherwise you couldn't be back on full HP after a fight with magical healing if blood wasn't replaced.

It's been a long time since I read the vampire process but I just looked it over and it describes the physical toll it takes on the victim. I wasn't aware of any magical healing that takes places during the 3 nights but you have to die on the 3rd night and if you die before you're just dead. not a vampire.

It also says the people are listless and just sit around waiting for the vamp to return so not sure what fighting is going on.

[kiralon]

All things considered: why wouldn't vampires be converting newborn infants into vampires? They get all the same physical/mental stats AFAIK but would take up the least amount of space, and it would make it really hard to attack them because nobody wants to stake a baby.

Plus you can get all Trainspotting with the ceiling-crawl.

Maybe a good house-rule would be something like an enhanced % chance of becoming a Wild Vampire instead of a Secondary Vampire when someone is very young? That could explain vampires avoiding it, if they'd prefer vampires to be Secondary and want to maximize chances.

That or abandon static vampire attributes and change them to a template built atop other racial / age stat guidelines.

I think vampire babies would make great NPCs. Get a swarm of them together and you have a really scary threat.

I had always assumed that babies and very young children could not be turned into Vampires because they could not survive the blood draining on night one and two. Small children have very little blood so draining a little blood on night one and two could kill the child prematurely. If they die early they can not become vampires so wondering how this would work.

Magical Healing has to replace blood as well as fix flesh, sinew and bone. Otherwise you couldn't be back on full HP after a fight with magical healing if blood wasn't replaced.

It's been a long time since I read the vampire process but I just looked it over and it describes the physical toll it takes on the victim. I wasn't aware of any magical healing that takes places during the 3 nights but you have to die on the 3rd night and if you die before you're just dead. not a vampire.

It also says the people are listless and just sit around waiting for the vamp to return so not sure what fighting is going on.

If you want to turn a child just make sure you have potions of healing to feed it to make sure it "survives" the process

[Warshield73]

Sorry, too many quotes I had to trim some.

Magical Healing has to replace blood as well as fix flesh, sinew and bone. Otherwise you couldn't be back on full HP after a fight with magical healing if blood wasn't replaced.

It's been a long time since I read the vampire process but I just looked it over and it describes the physical toll it takes on the victim. I wasn't aware of any magical healing that takes places during the 3 nights but you have to die on the 3rd night and if you die before you're just dead. not a vampire.

It also says the people are listless and just sit around waiting for the vamp to return so not sure what fighting is going on.

If you want to turn a child just make sure you have potions of healing to feed it to make sure it "survives" the process

OK, now I understand. I thought you were saying that there was something inherent in the vamp process that would keep them alive. My only question is would this stop the process. If you are healed of the blood drain wouldn't that stop the process? At the very least I think we would have to say that there is an age limit to surviving the standard process.

But, as a GM I have to say that I love the idea of a bunch of baby vamps flying around the room attacking the PCs. I would probably add to the existing HF for that.

[Axelmania]

I had always assumed that babies and very young children could not be turned into Vampires because they could not survive the blood draining on night one and two. Small children have very little blood so draining a little blood on night one and two could kill the child prematurely. If they die early they can not become vampires so wondering how this would work.

This is a good explanation for why most secondaries wouldn't be able to turn them, true.

Only the minority with healing magic to top up their blood between slow-kill feedings could make them last the full 3 days.

So we COULD still do it, but it explains why it isn't happening wide-spread: just not enough vampire mages to go around.

Of course... we should keep in mind that a secondary could just mind-control a wizard (or psi-healer) to help the baby, or buy a scroll of healing, etc.

A good RP reason might be that vampires' desire to turn victims is often romantic in nature, which is why they would prioritize turning a spouse or unrequited love or prom queen or something along those lines, which would mean they would avoid trying to turn babies and unattractive adults, and just use them for blood.

[Orin J.]

if you're immortal why're you going to condemn yourself to endless being a "parent" to keep up the charade for your horrible minion infant?

[Kinghawke]

if you're immortal why're you going to condemn yourself to endless being a "parent" to keep up the charade for your horrible minion infant?

interview with a vampire

[Axelmania]

if you're immortal why're you going to condemn yourself to endless being a "parent" to keep up the charade for your horrible minion infant?

Who says the vampire themself has to play that role? You could get a minion to do it. Or just don't have a public persona for them at all. Tell your "Baby Wild" to just lurk in the air vents to attack people infiltrating your lair.

You could probably also have them crawl threw sewer pipes. Sewage water (even running sewage water) doesn't seem to hurt vampires as of Rifts Vampires Sourcebook. Even if it did, they could just cling to the top of large pipes where there is no water.

I can't remember if any cities in PF are developed enough to have sewers though, so it might be a moot point.

If we're talking caves/tunnels though, there's bound to be ones so small that vamps the size of human adults couldn't fit in them while vamps the size of human babies (or adult gnomes) could.

In circumstances like that, a vamp will usually just shift to mist form, but they still need enough space to resume their full size to actually make attacks. I guess their wolf forms would be slightly smaller than their humanoid size, but if so, not by much.

Hm... would a vampire who is smaller than an adult human (be it a baby human turned into a vampire, or an adult gnome turned into a vampire) shapeshift into a smaller wolf than an adult human would? Or is it always the same size wolf regardless of the size of their humanoid form?

I guess the ultimate ideal here is you find a baby gnome to turn into a vampire, as presumably the smallest species has the smallest babies. Then if you shapeshift into a wolf, it would be even smaller (perhaps?).

The "large bat" form is probably relatively smaller than the wolf form. We're not exactly told HOW large... the best indicator I have is Kevin Long's drawing on page 23 of Vampire Kingdoms. Which isn't the clearest since he's not just moving downward but forward so the relative size of the human is smaller than it would be if it was equal distance from camera.

[SirSpamHammer]

I found this topic, wanting to know if Lynn-Serial can be vampires, because , I know they can be evil....at least, but I guess, they can't be. Being Supernatural creatures.

[kiralon]

OK, now I understand. I thought you were saying that there was something inherent in the vamp process that would keep them alive. My only question is would this stop the process. If you are healed of the blood drain wouldn't that stop the process? At the very least I think we would have to say that there is an age limit to surviving the standard process.

But, as a GM I have to say that I love the idea of a bunch of baby vamps flying around the room attacking the PCs. I would probably add to the existing HF for that.

If it worked that way, then wouldn't just using healing potions on a person being turned stop the process as well. Would make it dead easy for the priest to stop it by healing the person everyday.

So i would say that it wouldn't stop the process.

[Axelmania]

My only question is would this stop the process.
If you are healed of the blood drain wouldn't that stop the process?
At the very least I think we would have to say that there is an age limit to surviving the standard process.

So long as you were bitten and had some blood sucked out of you on 3 cumulative nights and died on that final night, I expect you get turned.

Even though lost pints of blood can be completely restored via healing psi/spells (I think at a ratio of 15 HP per pint? I think I misremembered that as 20 HP on another thread) I'm not sure if that would 'reset' the process.

I guess it's an interesting idea though, to have complete restoration of lost blood reset the slow-kill count.