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Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

Yes, the nuclear warheads are severely nerfed, or only the 'in space' damages are listed for stand off ranges. The damages for Full Nuclear Warheads are found in the CS Navy sourcebook.

As such, in the write up for AU:GG expantion I sent into the rifter I defined the ""nuclear"" missiles in list of 'standard missile' type are laser induced fusion warheads. Which should be downsize-able to damage levels seen in the standard missile lists. As such, with that definition fit into the high tech settings in which they are avalible better then thinking them as full sized nukes, that can level cities.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, the nuclear warheads are severely nerfed.

Now I forgot about this from Fleets as I rarely use it but forget nukes. That does as much damage as an anti-matter cruise missile which is insane. You could make an argument that nukes aren't so much nerfed as the new K-hex missiles are a massive power creep. The original K-hex long range only did 4D6X10 now that is really low compared to newer missiles but 4D6X100 is a radical change from the original. This is one of the many things I just ignore personally.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Or only the 'in space' damages are listed for stand off ranges. The damages for Full Nuclear Warheads are found in the CS Navy sourcebook.

As such, in the write up for AU:GG expantion I sent into the rifter I defined the ""nuclear"" missiles in list of 'standard missile' type are laser induced fusion warheads. Which should be downsize-able to damage levels seen in the standard missile lists. As such, with that definition fit into the high tech settings in which they are avalible better then thinking them as full sized nukes, that can level cities.

I do use the rules from CS navy for nukes and a slightly altered set of rules for anti-matter as well. This makes them a little more deadly in both space and for planets but the relative damage to the k-hex still makes no sense.

Its been clearly stated numerous times that the LRM nukes are “clean” low yield weapons.

The revised damages were retconned to be “from all manufacturers”/standard and not “Special CS only nukes/newly designed”...

So im not really seeing the issue.

Yes, a “standard” LRM does 2d4x100 MD. A K-Hex LRM does 4d6x100 MD...

Okay? Whats the issue? That a military-grade (remember, in the 3Gs there are such things as “civilian grade” weapons - including missiles (up to Cruise Missiles!) LRM enhanced by a cutting-edge element is really good? This supports Killaryte being so good and so desired that it has literally caused wars and led to even the CCW turning a blind eye to planets being exploited for Killaryte even when they have indigineous people on them (Detailed in Corkscrew Galaxy).

Its roughly the same damage ratio/difference as that between commercial CRMs (4d6x100 MD) and military-grade CRMs (between 1d4x1000 and 2d4x1000).

So, civilian LRMs do about 1/3rd the damage of Military-grade K-hex enhanced ones...just like civilian CRMs do about one third to one quarter of what military-grade CRMs do.

Seems fine, and completely in line.

This post is all over the place and doesn't address many of the issues to pardon me if I miss something. Before I begin I just want to say that at no point do you counter my biggest complaint of the massive power creep. Even if I grant every point here, which I don't, my premise still holds.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Its been clearly stated numerous times that the LRM nukes are “clean” low yield weapons.

I don't know about numerous, I could only find two mentions of this so not exactly great in number, but it misses the point. In terms of fallout we were comparing Cruise missiles to cruise missiles using the rules in the CS navy book. As there is nothing about this one way or another in any Phase World book it seems a perfectly reasonable supposition.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The revised damages were retconned to be “from all manufacturers”/standard and not “Special CS only nukes/newly designed”...

Not sure if this was ever specifically stated but not really relevant to what is being discussed.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So im not really seeing the issue.

Yes, a “standard” LRM does 2d4x100 MD. A K-Hex LRM does 4d6x100 MD...

It doesn't matter who can make a particular LRM the highest damage is still 2D4X100 and this K-Hex is 3 times that number. By comparison when K-hex was originally introduced in DB3 the 4D6X10 MDC that it could inflict matched what was at the time the most powerful LRM so if the Fleets had the new K-hex doing 2D4X100, a one for one increase, that would be in keeping with the original but that isn't the case.

This part is very dense so I am sorry that I am breaking it into tiny pieces but I want it clear what I am responding to.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Okay? Whats the issue? That a military-grade (remember, in the 3Gs there are such things as “civilian grade” weapons - including missiles (up to Cruise Missiles!)

Source. If this is true I missed it and Phase World is way more broken than I already think it is.

Yes, there are civilian weapons in PW. In DB2 page 154 it states several times that any ship with a medium weapon is considered military. That is weapons where the damage is usually X100 or above. I have found no civilian ships with any LRMs or CMs. In fact most civilian ships only have point defense. I have found no reference to any CM being civilian.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:LRM enhanced by a cutting-edge element is really good? This supports Killaryte being so good and so desired that it has literally caused wars and led to even the CCW turning a blind eye to planets being exploited for Killaryte even when they have indigineous people on them (Detailed in Corkscrew Galaxy).

First, thanks for the source. I know the passage of which you speak and I have ranted enough about it in the past so I'm going to just skip that and say that the same would be true for K-Hex missiles that do as much as a nuke, 2D4X100, so my statement that moving it up to an AM CM is massive power creep.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Its roughly the same damage ratio/difference as that between commercial CRMs (4d6x100 MD) and military-grade CRMs (between 1d4x1000 and 2d4x1000).

If you are referring to the Heavy Cruise Missiles on page 130 of DB 6 those are special weapons that according to the books they only have a few, only carry them on certain ships, and really only use them during times of war.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So, civilian LRMs do about 1/3rd the damage of Military-grade K-hex enhanced ones...just like civilian CRMs do about one third to one quarter of what military-grade CRMs do.

Seems fine, and completely in line.

Just to be clear, as far as you are concerned a nuclear missile doing 2D4X100 MDC are civilian missiles?

Yes, the nuclear warheads are severely nerfed, or only the 'in space' damages are listed for stand off ranges.

The third option was that they picked a damage and then put some flavor text in the weapon descriptive text cause they thought that text would be "cool". (talking about the 200 mt warheaded missiles.)

Any way you cut it, the result is the items "being" (list of words that describe) uncool, ignorant, stupid, uncorodinated, damage creep, etc... .

Stand off ranges....too bad they didn't add a bonus to strike to the listing to reflect that the warheads detonating early to get a better 'to hit ratio' was the reason that the 200 mt warhead damages were so low.

Warshield73 wrote:This post is all over the place and doesn't address many of the issues to pardon me if I miss something. Before I begin I just want to say that at no point do you counter my biggest complaint of the massive power creep. Even if I grant every point here, which I don't, my premise still holds.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Its been clearly stated numerous times that the LRM nukes are “clean” low yield weapons.

I don't know about numerous, I could only find two mentions of this so not exactly great in number, but it misses the point. In terms of fallout we were comparing Cruise missiles to cruise missiles using the rules in the CS navy book.

I have no idea why you'd do this, as they have nothing in common other than both being called Cruise Missiles.

As there is nothing about this one way or another in any Phase World book it seems a perfectly reasonable supposition.

Its not really reasonable at all. Remember, in the 3Gs, they dont use weapons of Mass Destruction like full-up nukes. Not even the evil races will do it. Even the TGE will call on world to surrender first, and if they say no, will "only" bombard them from orbit with energy weapons, wrecking infrastructure and farmland to force a surrender. Use of CRMs (of any kind) against a planet is strictly forbidden by the Lanator Accords. Even the Splugorth wont do it. The societies of the 3Gs, by and large, dont even produce WMDs of any kind, despite having the technical knowhow.

You're comparing what is essentially an extra-tough, extra-fast long range "clean" attack weapon (3Gs anti-ship CRMs) to a WMD from a backwards planet where they still thought making weapons that could annihilate everyone on the planet was an A-OK idea. Again, other than both being called "Cruise Missiles", they have literally nothing in common.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The revised damages were retconned to be “from all manufacturers”/standard and not “Special CS only nukes/newly designed”...

Not sure if this was ever specifically stated but not really relevant to what is being discussed.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So im not really seeing the issue.

Yes, a “standard” LRM does 2d4x100 MD. A K-Hex LRM does 4d6x100 MD...

It doesn't matter who can make a particular LRM the highest damage is still 2D4X100 and this K-Hex is 3 times that number. By comparison when K-hex was originally introduced in DB3 the 4D6X10 MDC that it could inflict matched what was at the time the most powerful LRM so if the Fleets had the new K-hex doing 2D4X100, a one for one increase, that would be in keeping with the original but that isn't the case.

I think the issue is that you're misunderstanding what K-Hex does. They use it to enhance existing weapons. You ADD it to an existing LRM, and make that LRM more potent. Thats what K-hex does and why Killaryte is so coveted. If anything, the original K-hex missile in DB3 only doing the same damage as the non-enhanced missile of the same type is the problem.

This part is very dense so I am sorry that I am breaking it into tiny pieces but I want it clear what I am responding to.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Okay? Whats the issue? That a military-grade (remember, in the 3Gs there are such things as “civilian grade” weapons - including missiles (up to Cruise Missiles!)

Source. If this is true I missed it and Phase World is way more broken than I already think it is.

Yes, there are civilian weapons in PW. In DB2 page 154 it states several times that any ship with a medium weapon is considered military. That is weapons where the damage is usually X100 or above. I have found no civilian ships with any LRMs or CMs. In fact most civilian ships only have point defense. I have found no reference to any CM being civilian.

Because you have an entirely blinkered view on what is "civilian" in the 3Gs.

Can you buy it, unrestricted, on the open market?

If the answer is yes, its a civilian weapon. Guess what you can buy on the open market (and not just in Phase World, where "anything goes"), and is totally legal to own even in the CCW? Anti-matter CRMs.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:LRM enhanced by a cutting-edge element is really good? This supports Killaryte being so good and so desired that it has literally caused wars and led to even the CCW turning a blind eye to planets being exploited for Killaryte even when they have indigineous people on them (Detailed in Corkscrew Galaxy).

First, thanks for the source. I know the passage of which you speak and I have ranted enough about it in the past so I'm going to just skip that and say that the same would be true for K-Hex missiles that do as much as a nuke, 2D4X100, so my statement that moving it up to an AM CM is massive power creep.

Moving it up to the same power as a civilian-available Anti-matter CRM. It has NOTHING on a full-up, military-grade CRM. Its basically the Naruni equivalent of a CRM (as they do not manufacture CRMs that we are aware of). Its also still an LRM, meaning it is FAR more vulnerable to counter-missile fire than a true CRM at optimal ranges.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Its roughly the same damage ratio/difference as that between commercial CRMs (4d6x100 MD) and military-grade CRMs (between 1d4x1000 and 2d4x1000).

If you are referring to the Heavy Cruise Missiles on page 130 of DB 6 those are special weapons that according to the books they only have a few, only carry them on certain ships, and really only use them during times of war.

The book does not state that they "only have a few" - it states that they "only keep a few on hand". And wether they get used during time of war or not is irrelevant. They exist. And are significantly more powerful than off-the-shelf, civilian-available CRMs.

And no, im not solely referring to the ones in DB6, as in Fleets, all the major factions have their own military-grade CRMs except the Golgans. The CCW has an even heavier Antimatter CRM than the one in DB6, the Altess have the Nezsam Torpedo (light warhead but lots of attacks and dodges), the Splugorth have the Splinter Missile (which does about the same damage as the heavy CCW Antimatter CRM), and the TGE has the Singularity Missile.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So, civilian LRMs do about 1/3rd the damage of Military-grade K-hex enhanced ones...just like civilian CRMs do about one third to one quarter of what military-grade CRMs do.

Seems fine, and completely in line.

Just to be clear, as far as you are concerned a nuclear missile doing 2D4X100 MDC are civilian missiles?

Since they are available to anyone with the money to buy them, on the open market, and are totally legal...

Yes. They are civilian weapons. Its not a tough concept. The damage they do is irrelevant. If they are legally available to civilians, they are civilian weapons.

And you keep pushing the "nuclear" thing as if it is somehow special - when the clean nuclear missile warhead is ubiquitous and normal, especially in the 3Gs.

FWIW, the "power creep" of the various CRMs over the course of the books was... expected and needed.

As it was, CRMs weren't dangerous. A Protector-class ship could empty it's CRM batteries of regular CRMs and not kill a Doombringer except with extreme luck (permanently knocking out the shields or something). If you wanted missile salvos to actually be dangerous, the damage was going to have to go up.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:This post is all over the place and doesn't address many of the issues to pardon me if I miss something. Before I begin I just want to say that at no point do you counter my biggest complaint of the massive power creep. Even if I grant every point here, which I don't, my premise still holds.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Its been clearly stated numerous times that the LRM nukes are “clean” low yield weapons.

I don't know about numerous, I could only find two mentions of this so not exactly great in number, but it misses the point. In terms of fallout we were comparing Cruise missiles to cruise missiles using the rules in the CS navy book.

I have no idea why you'd do this, as they have nothing in common other than both being called Cruise Missiles.

The have name, damage, and range. Litteraly everything we know about them is the same so that is why I did it. Again.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

As there is nothing about this one way or another in any Phase World book it seems a perfectly reasonable supposition.

Its not really reasonable at all. Remember, in the 3Gs, they dont use weapons of Mass Destruction like full-up nukes. Not even the evil races will do it. Even the TGE will call on world to surrender first, and if they say no, will "only" bombard them from orbit with energy weapons, wrecking infrastructure and farmland to force a surrender. Use of CRMs (of any kind) against a planet is strictly forbidden by the Lanator Accords. Even the Splugorth wont do it. The societies of the 3Gs, by and large, dont even produce WMDs of any kind, despite having the technical knowhow.

You're comparing what is essentially an extra-tough, extra-fast long range "clean" attack weapon (3Gs anti-ship CRMs) to a WMD from a backwards planet where they still thought making weapons that could annihilate everyone on the planet was an A-OK idea. Again, other than both being called "Cruise Missiles", they have literally nothing in common.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The revised damages were retconned to be “from all manufacturers”/standard and not “Special CS only nukes/newly designed”...

Not sure if this was ever specifically stated but not really relevant to what is being discussed.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So im not really seeing the issue.

Yes, a “standard” LRM does 2d4x100 MD. A K-Hex LRM does 4d6x100 MD...

It doesn't matter who can make a particular LRM the highest damage is still 2D4X100 and this K-Hex is 3 times that number. By comparison when K-hex was originally introduced in DB3 the 4D6X10 MDC that it could inflict matched what was at the time the most powerful LRM so if the Fleets had the new K-hex doing 2D4X100, a one for one increase, that would be in keeping with the original but that isn't the case.

I think the issue is that you're misunderstanding what K-Hex does. They use it to enhance existing weapons. You ADD it to an existing LRM, and make that LRM more potent. Thats what K-hex does and why Killaryte is so coveted. If anything, the original K-hex missile in DB3 only doing the same damage as the non-enhanced missile of the same type is the problem.

This part is very dense so I am sorry that I am breaking it into tiny pieces but I want it clear what I am responding to.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Okay? Whats the issue? That a military-grade (remember, in the 3Gs there are such things as “civilian grade” weapons - including missiles (up to Cruise Missiles!)

Source. If this is true I missed it and Phase World is way more broken than I already think it is.

Yes, there are civilian weapons in PW. In DB2 page 154 it states several times that any ship with a medium weapon is considered military. That is weapons where the damage is usually X100 or above. I have found no civilian ships with any LRMs or CMs. In fact most civilian ships only have point defense. I have found no reference to any CM being civilian.

Because you have an entirely blinkered view on what is "civilian" in the 3Gs.

Can you buy it, unrestricted, on the open market?

If the answer is yes, its a civilian weapon. Guess what you can buy on the open market (and not just in Phase World, where "anything goes"), and is totally legal to own even in the CCW? Anti-matter CRMs.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:LRM enhanced by a cutting-edge element is really good? This supports Killaryte being so good and so desired that it has literally caused wars and led to even the CCW turning a blind eye to planets being exploited for Killaryte even when they have indigineous people on them (Detailed in Corkscrew Galaxy).

First, thanks for the source. I know the passage of which you speak and I have ranted enough about it in the past so I'm going to just skip that and say that the same would be true for K-Hex missiles that do as much as a nuke, 2D4X100, so my statement that moving it up to an AM CM is massive power creep.

Moving it up to the same power as a civilian-available Anti-matter CRM. It has NOTHING on a full-up, military-grade CRM. Its basically the Naruni equivalent of a CRM (as they do not manufacture CRMs that we are aware of). Its also still an LRM, meaning it is FAR more vulnerable to counter-missile fire than a true CRM at optimal ranges.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Its roughly the same damage ratio/difference as that between commercial CRMs (4d6x100 MD) and military-grade CRMs (between 1d4x1000 and 2d4x1000).

If you are referring to the Heavy Cruise Missiles on page 130 of DB 6 those are special weapons that according to the books they only have a few, only carry them on certain ships, and really only use them during times of war.

The book does not state that they "only have a few" - it states that they "only keep a few on hand". And wether they get used during time of war or not is irrelevant. They exist. And are significantly more powerful than off-the-shelf, civilian-available CRMs.

And no, im not solely referring to the ones in DB6, as in Fleets, all the major factions have their own military-grade CRMs except the Golgans. The CCW has an even heavier Antimatter CRM than the one in DB6, the Altess have the Nezsam Torpedo (light warhead but lots of attacks and dodges), the Splugorth have the Splinter Missile (which does about the same damage as the heavy CCW Antimatter CRM), and the TGE has the Singularity Missile.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So, civilian LRMs do about 1/3rd the damage of Military-grade K-hex enhanced ones...just like civilian CRMs do about one third to one quarter of what military-grade CRMs do.

Seems fine, and completely in line.

Just to be clear, as far as you are concerned a nuclear missile doing 2D4X100 MDC are civilian missiles?

Since they are available to anyone with the money to buy them, on the open market, and are totally legal...

Yes. They are civilian weapons. Its not a tough concept. The damage they do is irrelevant. If they are legally available to civilians, they are civilian weapons.

And you keep pushing the "nuclear" thing as if it is somehow special - when the clean nuclear missile warhead is ubiquitous and normal, especially in the 3Gs.

FWIW, the "power creep" of the various CRMs over the course of the books was... expected and needed.

As it was, CRMs weren't dangerous. A Protector-class ship could empty it's CRM batteries of regular CRMs and not kill a Doombringer except with extreme luck (permanently knocking out the shields or something). If you wanted missile salvos to actually be dangerous, the damage was going to have to go up.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I have given you the sources in the book that I have used for the assumptions I have made until you do the same there is absolutely noting in your post that is worth the time to respond to.

Mip7029 wrote:Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

I don't necessarily see a problem per RAW (w/RAW is another matter):
1. It is "enhanced", which might indicate that it isn't a pure K-HEX warhead. Though what is "enhanced" about it would be pure speculation AFAIK.
2. It is on a Naruni Corporate Design, not a commercial design, and it is known that Corporate designs tend to be superior to the commercial versions.
3. When DB3 was written LRMs did less damage on the generic missile table, which was revised in RUE IINM which could influence how DB13 was written (so Recton?)
4. Per DB3 pg56 (or DB8 pg95), it would only take 4lbs of the K-Hex Plastique Cubes to equal a high end RMB LRM (actually 8lbs if we use the thrown stats) for damage. 40lbs (or 80lbs) of the stuff would seem reasonable for an explosive warhead, more so when you consider that a Tomahawk Cruise Missile w/conventional warhead is 1,000lbs (per the US Navy fact file on the missile). It gets even worse if we consider the K-HEX before its stabilized, you only need 2,000lbs/907kg to vaporize a starship (DB3 pg56. this is flavor text and likely depends on the starship in question), and 1lb/2.2kg is more potent that the refined Plastique Cubes.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Mip7029 wrote:Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

I don't necessarily see a problem per RAW (w/RAW is another matter):
1. It is "enhanced", which might indicate that it isn't a pure K-HEX warhead. Though what is "enhanced" about it would be pure speculation AFAIK.
2. It is on a Naruni Corporate Design, not a commercial design, and it is known that Corporate designs tend to be superior to the commercial versions.
3. When DB3 was written LRMs did less damage on the generic missile table, which was revised in RUE IINM which could influence how DB13 was written (so Recton?)
4. Per DB3 pg56 (or DB8 pg95), it would only take 4lbs of the K-Hex Plastique Cubes to equal a high end RMB LRM (actually 8lbs if we use the thrown stats) for damage. 40lbs (or 80lbs) of the stuff would seem reasonable for an explosive warhead, more so when you consider that a Tomahawk Cruise Missile w/conventional warhead is 1,000lbs (per the US Navy fact file on the missile). It gets even worse if we consider the K-HEX before its stabilized, you only need 2,000lbs/907kg to vaporize a starship (DB3 pg56. this is flavor text and likely depends on the starship in question), and 1lb/2.2kg is more potent that the refined Plastique Cubes.

I agree 40 lbs of warhead is quite reasonable for a LRM. As you pointed out 40 lbs is probably way lite for a LRM if they are similar to a Tomahawk. The stats presented for K-HEX as an explosive are lower than NG produced explosives so if NG wanted they to could produce LRMs doing 4D6x100.

Mlp7029 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Mip7029 wrote:Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

I don't necessarily see a problem per RAW (w/RAW is another matter):
1. It is "enhanced", which might indicate that it isn't a pure K-HEX warhead. Though what is "enhanced" about it would be pure speculation AFAIK.
2. It is on a Naruni Corporate Design, not a commercial design, and it is known that Corporate designs tend to be superior to the commercial versions.
3. When DB3 was written LRMs did less damage on the generic missile table, which was revised in RUE IINM which could influence how DB13 was written (so Recton?)
4. Per DB3 pg56 (or DB8 pg95), it would only take 4lbs of the K-Hex Plastique Cubes to equal a high end RMB LRM (actually 8lbs if we use the thrown stats) for damage. 40lbs (or 80lbs) of the stuff would seem reasonable for an explosive warhead, more so when you consider that a Tomahawk Cruise Missile w/conventional warhead is 1,000lbs (per the US Navy fact file on the missile). It gets even worse if we consider the K-HEX before its stabilized, you only need 2,000lbs/907kg to vaporize a starship (DB3 pg56. this is flavor text and likely depends on the starship in question), and 1lb/2.2kg is more potent that the refined Plastique Cubes.

I agree 40 lbs of warhead is quite reasonable for a LRM. As you pointed out 40 lbs is probably way lite for a LRM if they are similar to a Tomahawk. The stats presented for K-HEX as an explosive are lower than NG produced explosives so if NG wanted they to could produce LRMs doing 4D6x100.

Absolutely and my GM is considering raising the damage of LRMs by a factor of 10 due to this.

If you simply must have a bigger, LRM...
Just take four of the MRM Cruise Missiles on page 131 of Underseas. each is 2d6x100
Now put them in your Multi-Warhead LRM (fires for Medium Missiles...)
Presto 8d6x100

You can use the Firefly nuke if you want to go even bigger (and before people whine about 'no one uses nukes'... Fleets of the 3gs explicitly states that all cruise missiles are strategic nuclear weapons with the full underseas effects.)

eliakon wrote:If you simply must have a bigger, LRM...
Just take four of the MRM Cruise Missiles on page 131 of Underseas. each is 2d6x100
Now put them in your Multi-Warhead LRM (fires for Medium Missiles...)
Presto 8d6x100

You can use the Firefly nuke if you want to go even bigger (and before people whine about 'no one uses nukes'... Fleets of the 3gs explicitly states that all cruise missiles are strategic nuclear weapons with the full underseas effects.)

I do not see a 2D6x100 MRM Cruise missile in Underseas. I see a reference to a missiles launcher being capable of launching MRMs or cruise missiles. I am guessing you are extrapolating from the CSN Firefly nuclear long range torpedo in CS Navy that does 2D4x100 and says its about the size of a MRM?

Mlp7029 wrote:

eliakon wrote:If you simply must have a bigger, LRM...
Just take four of the MRM Cruise Missiles on page 131 of Underseas. each is 2d6x100
Now put them in your Multi-Warhead LRM (fires for Medium Missiles...)
Presto 8d6x100

You can use the Firefly nuke if you want to go even bigger (and before people whine about 'no one uses nukes'... Fleets of the 3gs explicitly states that all cruise missiles are strategic nuclear weapons with the full underseas effects.)

I do not see a 2D6x100 MRM Cruise missile in Underseas. I see a reference to a missiles launcher being capable of launching MRMs or cruise missiles. I am guessing you are extrapolating from the CSN Firefly nuclear long range torpedo in CS Navy that does 2D4x100 and says its about the size of a MRM?

Going from page 131 in WB7, it looks more like eliakon is combining the Cruise Missile Launchers and Medium Range Missile Launcher into a single entry, even though they are each given their own bullet number.

Mip7029 wrote:The stats presented for K-HEX as an explosive are lower than NG produced explosives so if NG wanted they to could produce LRMs doing 4D6x100.

I noticed that when I was researching my reply, but did not want to create a tangent.

Mip7029 wrote:Absolutely and my GM is considering raising the damage of LRMs by a factor of 10 due to this.

One might argue based on the MDC to SDC conversion "notes" in Rifts Conversion Book 1R that other explosives might also fall under this heading (SRM, MRM, and Fusion Blocks where included. Mini-Missiles and Grenades where not).

Mlp7029 wrote:Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

Its just another example of how scaling and game balance in general are completely out of whack.

Like just look at all the spaceships and robots that can take less damage than their own weight in cardboard boxes

Rallan wrote:

Mlp7029 wrote:Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

Its just another example of how scaling and game balance in general are completely out of whack.

Like just look at all the spaceships and robots that can take less damage than their own weight in cardboard boxes

You mean a nuclear missile doing as much damage as 100 sticks of MD Dynamite. Rifts merc has MD dynamite on page 101 does 2d4 MD per stick.

A Hellfire missile has a warhead of 20 pounds. 7 inch diameter 64(5 foot 4 inches) inches length. Size wise I would say it is about the size of rifts medium missile.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

Tomohawk is much to large for most lrm platforms in rifts. diameter 20 inches, wing span 5' and 18-20 feet long.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)

I would say the AIM-120 AMRAAM is about the size of rifts LRM. 40-50 pound warhead diameter 7 inches, length 12, feet wingspan 20 inches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM


so assuming a warhead of 20 pounds for MRM and 40 pounds for LRM the NG could make a high explosive missile do 2d4 X 200 +400 for medium and 2d4 X 400 + 800. That would be insta-death for most things in rifts earth with a 4 missile volley. ( NG6 is 2d4 X 10 +20 per pound.)

Rifts damage is......interesting. When triax first came out, the large rifle on the version 1 the devestator held did 1d6x10 damage... The same as a wilks 457 laser pulse rifle. It had twice the range, but come on now. A huge robot rifle that is no more powerful than a 6 pound wilks rifle.. Something is out of wack here.

Emerald MoonSilver wrote:Rifts damage is......interesting. When triax first came out, the large rifle on the version 1 the devestator held did 1d6x10 damage... The same as a wilks 457 laser pulse rifle. It had twice the range, but come on now. A huge robot rifle that is no more powerful than a 6 pound wilks rifle.. Something is out of wack here.

Rifts damage is built around the focus of the PCs. A juicer needs to stand a chance in most fights if they scaled robots and tanks correctly then that would be all people played. So most weapons even quite a "cannons" tend to be stated less than 1d6X10 and large mechanical units having poorly scaling MDC.

Emerald MoonSilver wrote:Rifts damage is......interesting. When triax first came out, the large rifle on the version 1 the devestator held did 1d6x10 damage... The same as a wilks 457 laser pulse rifle. It had twice the range, but come on now. A huge robot rifle that is no more powerful than a 6 pound wilks rifle.. Something is out of wack here.

No, it did over three times the damage of the Wilk's rifle (which does 3D6+2 MD per shot) and over twice the range.

The Wilk's had to use a Pulse to get that 1d6x10, which cant be aimed (or, now, use Called Shots), which the giant rifle can.

Do i think 1D6x10 is enough damage? Not really, but not out of any "ITZ BIGGUR SOZ IT MUSTS DO MOAR DAMAGEZ" nonsense. The larger size could be required to get that much damage out of a single blast and to produce a beam of that damage that is coherent enough out to that range (this is a somewhat real life issue; really powerful lasers tend to dissipate more quickly; its one of the main reasons we dont already have major laser weaponry deployed on things like Cruisers, Destroyers, etc).

My main reason for not thinking it does enough damage is because its a Triax weapon; Triax should be almost 200 years more advanced than anyone else native to Rifts Earth as they never suffered a Dark Age and started with Golden Age technology levels.

But that is a problem with the general lack of attention to lore and consistency therein. (Similarly, the Gargoyle Empire could NEVER be a realistic threat to the NGR, ever).

Mlp7029 wrote:

Mlp7029 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Mip7029 wrote:Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

I don't necessarily see a problem per RAW (w/RAW is another matter):
1. It is "enhanced", which might indicate that it isn't a pure K-HEX warhead. Though what is "enhanced" about it would be pure speculation AFAIK.
2. It is on a Naruni Corporate Design, not a commercial design, and it is known that Corporate designs tend to be superior to the commercial versions.
3. When DB3 was written LRMs did less damage on the generic missile table, which was revised in RUE IINM which could influence how DB13 was written (so Recton?)
4. Per DB3 pg56 (or DB8 pg95), it would only take 4lbs of the K-Hex Plastique Cubes to equal a high end RMB LRM (actually 8lbs if we use the thrown stats) for damage. 40lbs (or 80lbs) of the stuff would seem reasonable for an explosive warhead, more so when you consider that a Tomahawk Cruise Missile w/conventional warhead is 1,000lbs (per the US Navy fact file on the missile). It gets even worse if we consider the K-HEX before its stabilized, you only need 2,000lbs/907kg to vaporize a starship (DB3 pg56. this is flavor text and likely depends on the starship in question), and 1lb/2.2kg is more potent that the refined Plastique Cubes.

I agree 40 lbs of warhead is quite reasonable for a LRM. As you pointed out 40 lbs is probably way lite for a LRM if they are similar to a Tomahawk. The stats presented for K-HEX as an explosive are lower than NG produced explosives so if NG wanted they to could produce LRMs doing 4D6x100.

Absolutely and my GM is considering raising the damage of LRMs by a factor of 10 due to this.

Except LRM's are nowhere near the size of a Tomahawk.

The CS LRM Missile Launch vehicle, in Mercenaries, built on the chassis of the Mark V APC, holds over a HUNDRED of them.

Tomahawks are larger than a lot of the vehicles that carry LRMs in Rifts, at over 15 feet long with a nearly 9 foot wingspan.

Warshield73 wrote:What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I have given you the sources in the book that I have used for the assumptions I have made until you do the same there is absolutely noting in your post that is worth the time to respond to.

The size of the pile of evidence that you were given was astronomical.

You are an absolute KING in arguing in bad faith.

No evidence is good enough unless you agree with it, right up to you simply saying the books say things they provably do not say, and then refusing to admit you're wrong when i post the entire section of the book verbatim that shows you are 100% wrong.

There's no inference. The evidence is clear.

The basic CRMs are available on the open market.

Civilians can buy things on the open market, even in the CCW (though individual planets may not let you dock or enter their orbital space until you agree to have your weapons disarmed). There is no Consortium-wide ban on any weapons even inferred except for the explosive-round Draygon Industries guns. You can literally walk down to the corner store and pick up an NE-10 and as many Plasma rounds as you like.

They are civilian weapons.

End of story.

Any other assertion is your head-canon fantasy.

Your entire argument is "there could be all these laws we dont know about so we have to imagine that they are all real and that no one can actually buy anything because the law restricts it" even though that isn't how setting information works in the first place (if something ISNT mentioned as being banned, it ISNT), and secondly, we're straight up told that actual Consorium-wide laws are almost nonexistent and very light.

Dont bother replying. I'm done with your nonsense and inability to face being wrong. You're not remotely interested in educating yourself or doing anything other than pushing your head-canon as though it is fact and simply ignoring when people disagree and prove you wrong.

Ignored. Enjoy your head-canon fantasy.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Mlp7029 wrote:

Mlp7029 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Mip7029 wrote:Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

I don't necessarily see a problem per RAW (w/RAW is another matter):
1. It is "enhanced", which might indicate that it isn't a pure K-HEX warhead. Though what is "enhanced" about it would be pure speculation AFAIK.
2. It is on a Naruni Corporate Design, not a commercial design, and it is known that Corporate designs tend to be superior to the commercial versions.
3. When DB3 was written LRMs did less damage on the generic missile table, which was revised in RUE IINM which could influence how DB13 was written (so Recton?)
4. Per DB3 pg56 (or DB8 pg95), it would only take 4lbs of the K-Hex Plastique Cubes to equal a high end RMB LRM (actually 8lbs if we use the thrown stats) for damage. 40lbs (or 80lbs) of the stuff would seem reasonable for an explosive warhead, more so when you consider that a Tomahawk Cruise Missile w/conventional warhead is 1,000lbs (per the US Navy fact file on the missile). It gets even worse if we consider the K-HEX before its stabilized, you only need 2,000lbs/907kg to vaporize a starship (DB3 pg56. this is flavor text and likely depends on the starship in question), and 1lb/2.2kg is more potent that the refined Plastique Cubes.

I agree 40 lbs of warhead is quite reasonable for a LRM. As you pointed out 40 lbs is probably way lite for a LRM if they are similar to a Tomahawk. The stats presented for K-HEX as an explosive are lower than NG produced explosives so if NG wanted they to could produce LRMs doing 4D6x100.

Absolutely and my GM is considering raising the damage of LRMs by a factor of 10 due to this.

Except LRM's are nowhere near the size of a Tomahawk.

The CS LRM Missile Launch vehicle, in Mercenaries, built on the chassis of the Mark V APC, holds over a HUNDRED of them.

Tomahawks are larger than a lot of the vehicles that carry LRMs in Rifts, at over 15 feet long with a nearly 9 foot wingspan.

Maybe but even 20 lbs of explosives (like the AIM-9 carries) based on the stats in Mercenaries yields damage values way larger than the book values.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Mlp7029 wrote:

Mlp7029 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Mip7029 wrote:Fleets of the Three Galaxies page 65 has a K-HEX enhanced long range missile that does 4D6x100 M.D. That is more than a nuclear multi-warhead at 2D4x100. To me this is just another example that shows the larger missile damages are way to low.

I don't necessarily see a problem per RAW (w/RAW is another matter):
1. It is "enhanced", which might indicate that it isn't a pure K-HEX warhead. Though what is "enhanced" about it would be pure speculation AFAIK.
2. It is on a Naruni Corporate Design, not a commercial design, and it is known that Corporate designs tend to be superior to the commercial versions.
3. When DB3 was written LRMs did less damage on the generic missile table, which was revised in RUE IINM which could influence how DB13 was written (so Recton?)
4. Per DB3 pg56 (or DB8 pg95), it would only take 4lbs of the K-Hex Plastique Cubes to equal a high end RMB LRM (actually 8lbs if we use the thrown stats) for damage. 40lbs (or 80lbs) of the stuff would seem reasonable for an explosive warhead, more so when you consider that a Tomahawk Cruise Missile w/conventional warhead is 1,000lbs (per the US Navy fact file on the missile). It gets even worse if we consider the K-HEX before its stabilized, you only need 2,000lbs/907kg to vaporize a starship (DB3 pg56. this is flavor text and likely depends on the starship in question), and 1lb/2.2kg is more potent that the refined Plastique Cubes.

I agree 40 lbs of warhead is quite reasonable for a LRM. As you pointed out 40 lbs is probably way lite for a LRM if they are similar to a Tomahawk. The stats presented for K-HEX as an explosive are lower than NG produced explosives so if NG wanted they to could produce LRMs doing 4D6x100.

Absolutely and my GM is considering raising the damage of LRMs by a factor of 10 due to this.

Except LRM's are nowhere near the size of a Tomahawk.

The CS LRM Missile Launch vehicle, in Mercenaries, built on the chassis of the Mark V APC, holds over a HUNDRED of them.

Tomahawks are larger than a lot of the vehicles that carry LRMs in Rifts, at over 15 feet long with a nearly 9 foot wingspan.

LRMs might not be the size of a Tomahawk, but are they using the same type of engines with the same fuel efficiency? A more fuel efficient engine means you can reduce the size of the missile because you don't need as much fuel.

ShadowLogan wrote:
LRMs might not be the size of a Tomahawk, but are they using the same type of engines with the same fuel efficiency? A more fuel efficient engine means you can reduce the size of the missile because you don't need as much fuel.

If it is smaller than a tomahawk then it is not like a tomahawk. Increasing the fuel efficiency of a Tomahawk increases range not reduce the size. When you switch size you change to another type of missile, meaning warhead size comparison to a Tomahawk would be pointless, after all the warhead could be smaller do to more efficient warheads.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I have given you the sources in the book that I have used for the assumptions I have made until you do the same there is absolutely noting in your post that is worth the time to respond to.

The size of the pile of evidence that you were given was astronomical.

You are an absolute KING in arguing in bad faith.

No evidence is good enough unless you agree with it, right up to you simply saying the books say things they provably do not say, and then refusing to admit you're wrong when i post the entire section of the book verbatim that shows you are 100% wrong.

There's no inference. The evidence is clear.

The basic CRMs are available on the open market.

Civilians can buy things on the open market, even in the CCW (though individual planets may not let you dock or enter their orbital space until you agree to have your weapons disarmed). There is no Consortium-wide ban on any weapons even inferred except for the explosive-round Draygon Industries guns. You can literally walk down to the corner store and pick up an NE-10 and as many Plasma rounds as you like.

They are civilian weapons.

End of story.

Any other assertion is your head-canon fantasy.

Your entire argument is "there could be all these laws we dont know about so we have to imagine that they are all real and that no one can actually buy anything because the law restricts it" even though that isn't how setting information works in the first place (if something ISNT mentioned as being banned, it ISNT), and secondly, we're straight up told that actual Consorium-wide laws are almost nonexistent and very light.

Dont bother replying. I'm done with your nonsense and inability to face being wrong. You're not remotely interested in educating yourself or doing anything other than pushing your head-canon as though it is fact and simply ignoring when people disagree and prove you wrong.

Ignored. Enjoy your head-canon fantasy.

Where does it say they are civilian weapons. Where does it say you can pick them up at a corner store?

What is more note worthy-
A market with no restrictions on who can buy what where.
A market that limits purchase of high power weapons that pose a threat to public safety.

Without them telling us weather or not their are restrictions both cases can be true.


Unless you have a statement in the books that backs your stance is it possible this post was a case of the pot talking to the kettle.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Emerald MoonSilver wrote:Rifts damage is......interesting. When triax first came out, the large rifle on the version 1 the devestator held did 1d6x10 damage... The same as a wilks 457 laser pulse rifle. It had twice the range, but come on now. A huge robot rifle that is no more powerful than a 6 pound wilks rifle.. Something is out of wack here.

No, it did over three times the damage of the Wilk's rifle (which does 3D6+2 MD per shot) and over twice the range.

The Wilk's had to use a Pulse to get that 1d6x10, which cant be aimed (or, now, use Called Shots), which the giant rifle can.

Do i think 1D6x10 is enough damage? Not really, but not out of any "ITZ BIGGUR SOZ IT MUSTS DO MOAR DAMAGEZ" nonsense. The larger size could be required to get that much damage out of a single blast and to produce a beam of that damage that is coherent enough out to that range (this is a somewhat real life issue; really powerful lasers tend to dissipate more quickly; its one of the main reasons we dont already have major laser weaponry deployed on things like Cruisers, Destroyers, etc).

My main reason for not thinking it does enough damage is because its a Triax weapon; Triax should be almost 200 years more advanced than anyone else native to Rifts Earth as they never suffered a Dark Age and started with Golden Age technology levels.

But that is a problem with the general lack of attention to lore and consistency therein. (Similarly, the Gargoyle Empire could NEVER be a realistic threat to the NGR, ever).

For the record the pulse can be aimed and used for called shots. but get half the normal bonuses.



[quote ="RUE pg 381" ] Rapid-Fire Pulse. Some modem lasers and other energy weapons
fire 3-4 instantaneous energy pulses at the same target. This happens so
fast it is not even considered to be a burst, but a single, heavy blast. It
counts as one melee attack and suffers no penalty to strike except on an
Aimed or Called Shot, in which case any strike bonus is reduced by
half (round down).[/quote]

The idea that a larger weapon should do more damage really is not nonsense. It is conventional thinking, with how we understand weapons. If a larger weapon is doing the less damage than smaller weapons with no reason why people find that hard to understand.

Blue_Lion wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:
LRMs might not be the size of a Tomahawk, but are they using the same type of engines with the same fuel efficiency? A more fuel efficient engine means you can reduce the size of the missile because you don't need as much fuel.

If it is smaller than a tomahawk then it is not like a tomahawk. Increasing the fuel efficiency of a Tomahawk increases range not reduce the size. When you switch size you change to another type of missile, meaning warhead size comparison to a Tomahawk would be pointless, after all the warhead could be smaller do to more efficient warheads.

You are right that on an existing design a more fuel efficient option would result in more range, but you could also take that fuel efficient technology and put it into a new "next generation" product that is smaller and does the same thing (which is what we could be seeing in terms of Rifts LRMs).

ShadowLogan wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:
LRMs might not be the size of a Tomahawk, but are they using the same type of engines with the same fuel efficiency? A more fuel efficient engine means you can reduce the size of the missile because you don't need as much fuel.

If it is smaller than a tomahawk then it is not like a tomahawk. Increasing the fuel efficiency of a Tomahawk increases range not reduce the size. When you switch size you change to another type of missile, meaning warhead size comparison to a Tomahawk would be pointless, after all the warhead could be smaller do to more efficient warheads.

You are right that on an existing design a more fuel efficient option would result in more range, but you could also take that fuel efficient technology and put it into a new "next generation" product that is smaller and does the same thing (which is what we could be seeing in terms of Rifts LRMs).

As I said once you change the size you no longer can use the tomahawk as the basis for comparison of things like the size the warhead would be.

@Blue_Lion
While the size itself might be different, the relevant statistics (range, speed, warhead/payload-size) can still end up being the same to allow comparison. (ie XYZ has Cruise Missile like a Tomahawk in terms of performance but in a different size package due to its advanced tech).

ShadowLogan wrote:@Blue_Lion
While the size itself might be different, the relevant statistics (range, speed, warhead/payload-size) can still end up being the same to allow comparison. (ie XYZ has Cruise Missile like a Tomahawk in terms of performance but in a different size package due to its advanced tech).

While they can be the same it does not mean they are.
Once you change the size you can no longer say the warhead X because a larger missile has y warhead size.
That is like saying A smart car can seat 8 because there are vans can seat 15.

In addition There are cruise missiles in phase world so why you using cruise missile warhead size to justify LRM warhead size.

Your lets apply your IE as you are using a tomahawk missile correctly.

X has Y like a Z in terms of A but with B because of b.

That is the logical break down. Now then lets plug in the original claim.

LRM has 1000 pounds of high explosive warhead like a cruise missile in terms of performance because but in a smaller size do to advanced tech.

That means we have no idea what the size of the warhead is because the over all size was changed do to advanced tech. So we can not say the warhead size is X because it is like a cruise missile.

Basically cruise missile can not be used to justify the warhead size of LRM if the LRM smaller. You need to find a missile that represents the size of A LRM to justify what the reasonable size of a warhead would be.

I think we are getting too hung up Phase World using the term "cruise missile". This was just a term CJ used to denote missiles that were bigger and more powerful than LRMs. There is nothing in the characteristics of what PW calls CMs that would make them similar to modern missiles categorized as cruise missiles except maybe the range. Some similar missiles in the Fleets Book are actually referred to as torpedoes.

As for comparing sizes of missiles I tend to agree with Blue Lion the most. I think at most you might be able to compare the proportions of a missile. What percentage of a missile is taken up by guidance, payload, and drive but that would still be better done by comparing similar sized missiles. So I would try to look at an AIM-9 for a short ranged missile on so on.

It doesn't help any of this that we have inconsistent and incomplete stats on all of these missiles in the books.

Warshield73 wrote:I think we are getting too hung up Phase World using the term "cruise missile".
This was just a term CJ used to denote missiles that were bigger and more powerful than LRMs.

You're forgetting the x2 range multiplier against couches.