malaclypse wrote:Fair. But since this post was specifically about Shifters, and RUE, I'm not sure Wizards (which are PF material) would apply to it. Still, the example is a good one of a spellcaster exceeding 16 by canon, so kudos for that.
Greetings and Salutations. Well, you're the one who wanted to discuss Thoth, and he is neither a Shifter nor in RUE. By your own original post ...
malaclypse wrote:For reference, Thoth is a 30th level Diabolist, 20th level Rune Master (the last?), 20th level Wizard, 15th level Summoner, and a 20th level Alchemist
As such, it definitely seemed fitting to discuss Wizards, since Thoth is one. If you discount Wizards, then you should also discount Thoth's ability to cast magic as a whole (which would make the comparison odd).
malaclypse wrote:Better at what, or in what way(s)? Thoth has more PPE and a larger pool to draw upon. But so what? Who's got the higher save? That's the point I was making. No mortal should be able to exceed a God of Magic on spellcasting saves.
And see, you keep trying to say all of magic is tied back to Spell Strength, but it's not. I'm going to use the PF2 main book as my reference, as PF is the setting I know best and I did a lot of Excel data entry on the main book spells, which makes it easy for me to search/find information. A lot of this should be comparable in Rifts.
There are 182 Invocation spells.
59 have a Standard save (2 of which have a penalty to the one making a saving throw).
2 have a Save vs. Magic (which would bring it up to 61), but the Saving Throw doesn't do very much (Carpet of Adhesion and Immobilization, where you're affected regardless if you save or not, it's just a matter of how long).
104 with "None" for the saving throw.
2 have a Save set at 18 (skill does not matter).
1 has a save vs. Ritual.
4 have a Horror Factor save (1 with a Save vs Magic as well, but that's set at 16 regardless of skill).
7 have a Dodge (no Save otherwise).
2 require a Mind Block to resist.
1 has a Battle of Wills.
12 spells have a Range benefit based on level*.
130 have a Duration based on level*.
33 have some other benefit based on level* (such as Damage, increased S.D.C., greater area affect, more targets affected, etc.).
*As these are based on level, Thoth will have an edge in each of these categories vs. any mortal caster.
So out of 182 different possibilities, a Shifter with a Spell Strength of 18 has a slight advantage in 61 situations (and 2 of those situations Thoth can probably do whatever he needs to before a save even matters). In the other 121 situations, Spell Strength is irrelevant (effectively twice as many situations). In at least 130 situations (probably more, but I didn't feel like checking for how many overlaps there were) Thoth will have 1 or more advantages over the Shifter.
malaclypse wrote:Are we to believe that a 13th level Shifter with a link to the supernatural Gods of Magic (which could be to Thoth himself, after all) is somehow more potent in spells and incantations than the highest god of magic in the Palladium Megaverse?
Since I'm responding (again), does it ever actually say that Thoth is the highest god of magic in the Palladium Megaverse? I'm reading his write-up, and I don't see it. I see him listed as "possibly the most talented god ever," but that's not necessarily related to magic, just that he's talented (which covers more than just magic).
Dragons & Gods, page 143, Thoth, Lord of Wisdom wrote:Thoth symbolizes wisdom, knowledge, and invention. Yet, despite his learning and knowledge, there is a bit of larceny in his heart, for he admires cunning, deception, and people who use their wits and a quick tongue. Thus, he is the patron of magic, and of all fast speaking, thieving, quick-witted creatures.
From I see, he's the patron of magic, but not because he is magic incarnate, but because he values wisdom and people with wits (which would overlap with magic users).
He has the
wisdom of a Wizard, and a Wizard of his level would have a Spell Strength of 17. His spell strength is from
knowledge, not innate, and in many ways it seems that's the part you actually don't like.
malaclypse wrote:My point is that, regardless of how much PPE you have, how many spells you know, a PC shouldn't be able to exceed a god of magic in the domain of magic on any ground - unless you consider knowing a certain form of magic that the god in question doesn't know "excelling" (say, you know Blue Flame magic and Thoth doesn't, for example). To me, that's not exceeding Thoth on his own ground, it's just knowing something obscure that he doesn't (or, who knows, maybe a part of him does - he doesn't seem to be able to access all of his knowledge due to the whole transformation thing).
Well, first, I'd disagree with your basic premise. But instead of arguing on personal preference, I'll point out that the rest of your stance is flawed. The Shifter only has a Spell Strength of 16. A supernatural entity (through a link) is giving the Shifter a +2 boost, but that is not the Shifter's actual ability, just his/her to command. So what you're complaining about is 2 different beings pooling their resources to out perform 1 being, and you don't think that should be possible.
So two powers are combining their abilities to gain a slight advantage to only 61 situations, while Thoth who is wise, knowledgeable, cunning, and quick-witted could use 130 (or more) situations to overcome their very minor advantage, plus his large reserve of godly talents, attributes, and abilities. Personally, I don't have any issue with it and my money would still be on Thoth. The rules don't suggest there's an issue with this. You're welcome to house rule as you like. Farewell and safe journeys.
