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While going through the Siege on Tolkeen books (looking for a D'norr Devilman NPC for name inspiration), i found some rather interesting things....

There are items given stats in NPC descriptions that i cant find anywhere else... and some of them are pretty potent.

But the way they are statted makes it clear they aren't supposed to be unique, as they are given no coverage outside the bare stats, no mention of "a unique item created by X" or anything.

Lets start with Major Jara Kado, on page 42 of SoT3. She has the following goodies:

"E-6 TW Energy Bolt Pistol" - does a whopping 3D6 MD per shot, can fire short, long, and full melee bursts, and is +3 to strike! Uses a PPE clip.

"TK-21 Telekinetic Sub-Machinegun" - does an absolutely MIND BOGGLING 3D6MD per TK round. (WAY higher than any other TK gun!) Can fire short, long, and full melee bursts... and apparently can use a "PPE Power Pack". Well get back to those later.

"E-17 TW Energy Bolt RIfle" - same as the pistol, but does 4D6 per single shot, fully burst capable, and can use the PPE Power Pack (or the Clip)

"TK Sawsword" - i'd actually created a version of this for my Augmented Assaults NPCs, before i saw this - but this isn't seen anywhere else. Unlike the TW Chainsaw, this thing is apparently easy to wield - +1 to strike and parry!

She also carries three PPE Power Packs, which aren't given stats anywhere, that im aware of. They seem to be slightly better than than 3 PPE clips (as the guns list usually 30 shots per PPE clip or 100 per power pack). But there are no hard and fast rules - just that they exist by implication that she has them (everyone in her squad has them).

Next up, the Scrupulous Mystic Knight (who is not apparently a White Rose Knight) "The Revenant" on pages 44 and 45; on page 45, he gets this gem:

"TW Shard Cannon" - seems to be a machinegun version of the Shard Pistol/Shard Rifle; can only fire bursts. 6D6 (short), 1D4x10 (long - why would you waste the ammo @ only 4 damage better than the short burst?), and 1D6x10 (full melee). Weirdly, PPE Power Pack is even MORE efficient on this one - 25 shots for a PPE clip, 100 for the pack.


While i have not searched exhaustively, i cant find these weapons (or the PPE Power Pack) described anywhere else.

Makes me wonder what other items are out there that people have glossed over.

Another fun find:

te NPC "Thankless" on page 29 of SoT3 has an L-20 Pulse Rifle.

Nothing out of the ordinary here, except that he's had it forever and is +1 to strike with it...

And...

Somehow, if the CS got their hands on it, they'd be able to "connect Thankless with a long history of Anti-Coalition attacks".

Saywut?

Are they like.... matching laser ballistics?

This one made me seriously facepalm.

I can't take credit for this one, but it was amusing....

In my continuing blog review of the Rifts library, during the discussion of my WB5 review, somebody in a Rifts FB group pointed out the NGR human supremacy model and then the Rahu-man entry in Conversion Book 1. In the Notes section at the end of the Rahu-man entry, it speaks of General Rasheen, a 9th level Rahu-man cyber-knight, venerated hero of the NGR and member of the Council of Governors.

desrocfc wrote:I can't take credit for this one, but it was amusing....

In my continuing blog review of the Rifts library, during the discussion of my WB5 review, somebody in a Rifts FB group pointed out the NGR human supremacy model and then the Rahu-man entry in Conversion Book 1. In the Notes section at the end of the Rahu-man entry, it speaks of General Rasheen, a 9th level Rahu-man cyber-knight, venerated hero of the NGR and member of the Council of Governors.

This isnt actually a contradiction. While the NGR are humans-first, and D-bees are second class citizens (and not citizens by default), D-bees CAN be citizens if they prove their loyalty. General Rasheen is given a full write up in Triax 2. Theres even an “interview” short story with him being interviewed by the NGR press (which deals with him talking about the nature of D-bees in the NGR and advocating for D-Bee rights).

Another gem:

King Creed (SoT6) does mega damage from punches. No reason given. He just does.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

desrocfc wrote:<snip>

This isnt actually a contradiction. While the NGR are humans-first, and D-bees are second class citizens (and not citizens by default), D-bees CAN be citizens if they prove their loyalty. General Rasheen is given a full write up in Triax 2. Theres even an “interview” short story with him being interviewed by the NGR press (which deals with him talking about the nature of D-bees in the NGR and advocating for D-Bee rights).

Another gem:

King Creed (SoT6) does mega damage from punches. No reason given. He just does.

Ah, well I stand dutifully corrected. That said, the last book I purchased before very recently was Rifts Aftermath (yeah, that long).

I have purchased a slew of them to try and catch up, I just haven't gotten to them in my blog reviews - only just posted WB5 and SB3. That Rasheen shows up in greater depth only whets my appetite further!

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Another fun find:

te NPC "Thankless" on page 29 of SoT3 has an L-20 Pulse Rifle.

Nothing out of the ordinary here, except that he's had it forever and is +1 to strike with it...

And...

Somehow, if the CS got their hands on it, they'd be able to "connect Thankless with a long history of Anti-Coalition attacks".

Saywut?

Are they like.... matching laser ballistics?

This one made me seriously facepalm.

not bad. for another facepalm moment in palladium books, if I'm remembering correctly in the northern gun writeup of the behemoth explorer, it mentions that bandits (along with everyone else, but this is the group that made me facepalm) will avoid attacking the behemoth because it's a peaceful unarmed robot vehicle. who knew bandits were so respectful of pacifism?

well... there's also the claim that hovercycle technology is completely and utterly silent. not quiet, mind you... silent. and completely and utterly stealthy. apparently jets powerful enough to lift a 500 lb brick with 200+ lbs of rider and gear do not make any noise, nor do they kick up massive dust clouds or anything like that.

i can see not bothering to attack a behemoth. the parts aren't gonna be common with that shape and a buncha research equipment is gonna be hard to move. it's a big pile of guns and stuff that doesn't sell for very much, why bother?

Well "attack" doesn't mean "destroy", and they are still worth millions even at Black Market prices.

Not to mention it could just be a great base of operations for Bandits. Nice and comfy.

If i were a bandit, i'd attack it. Just to have a nice place to live between raids.

desrocfc wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

desrocfc wrote:<snip>

This isnt actually a contradiction. While the NGR are humans-first, and D-bees are second class citizens (and not citizens by default), D-bees CAN be citizens if they prove their loyalty. General Rasheen is given a full write up in Triax 2. Theres even an “interview” short story with him being interviewed by the NGR press (which deals with him talking about the nature of D-bees in the NGR and advocating for D-Bee rights).

Another gem:

King Creed (SoT6) does mega damage from punches. No reason given. He just does.

Ah, well I stand dutifully corrected. That said, the last book I purchased before very recently was Rifts Aftermath (yeah, that long).

I have purchased a slew of them to try and catch up, I just haven't gotten to them in my blog reviews - only just posted WB5 and SB3. That Rasheen shows up in greater depth only whets my appetite further!

The info is there in WB5 (about D-bees being ... 'tolerated') - the NGR is human-first but doesn't persecute D-bees, they just deport them. They also wont stand for just killing D-bees. Its expanded on quite a bit in Triax 2, with (as of 107 PA) D-bee Citizens (who are still second-class citizens) even getting to vote - though they only count as half a vote.

NGR also isn't anti-magic or anti-mutant like the CS is. Magic isnt even illegal, its just not widely practiced and as long as you dont use it to commit crime, you're fine.

Triax 2 will be a ways off. I think its like WB30 or something.

This topic has inspired me to go through NPC descriptions looking for weird stuff.

Caveat: NPCs DONT have to obey the same rules as PCs and can have whatever stats and powers the GM (and/or Writer/Kevin) assigns them, but im pointing these out because they are interesting or funny.

Going through England right now....

Sir Galahad (the T-man) inflicts +7 M.D. damage. No stated reason. This fits the damage bonus for his PS.. but for whatever reason, he applies his PS damage bonus to MD attacks.

Orin J. wrote:i can see not bothering to attack a behemoth. the parts aren't gonna be common with that shape and a buncha research equipment is gonna be hard to move. it's a big pile of guns and stuff that doesn't sell for very much, why bother?

what makes you think it doesn't sell for very much? it's a big, *mobile* pile of expensive parts and lab equipment, including a nuclear reactor as I recall. the transportation issues take care of themselves. all wrapped up in a package that *doesn't* have a lot of guns, which is somehow supposed to act as a deterrent to bandits.

(again, I have no problem with the statement that few or no weapons makes it non-threatening to security forces, police, governments, etc, and thus keeps *them* from attacking it. it's just the part about bandits and similar watching a multi-million credit payday walk past because it lacks adequate means to protect itself that sounds absurd. that is exactly the sort of thing bandits should be attacking; sure, a merchant caravan may have more loot, but if you have to fight half a dozen guys in power armour that sounds too much like a fair fight. a poorly-defended target that is still worth a lot, even though it is a lot less than some other things, should be an extremely appealing target for banditry).

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:King Creed (SoT6) does mega damage from punches. No reason given. He just does.

Several other NPCs in WB3 also have +MD damage bonuses, that are not always consistent with their PS. Its also inconsistent who has them and who doesn't.

Gargoyles..

The absurdity that is the Phoenix Empire raises its ugly head... from the way the text reads.... there are likely more Gargoyles and Gurgoyles in the Phoenix Empire than there are in the Gargoyle Empire. No exact population numbers for the Empire are given in WB5, but it's "Millions".... but not "tens of millions".

There are 20 million Gargoyles/Gurgoyles in the Phoenix Empire.

Shark_Force wrote:

Orin J. wrote:i can see not bothering to attack a behemoth. the parts aren't gonna be common with that shape and a buncha research equipment is gonna be hard to move. it's a big pile of guns and stuff that doesn't sell for very much, why bother?

what makes you think it doesn't sell for very much? it's a big, *mobile* pile of expensive parts and lab equipment, including a nuclear reactor as I recall. the transportation issues take care of themselves. all wrapped up in a package that *doesn't* have a lot of guns, which is somehow supposed to act as a deterrent to bandits.

(again, I have no problem with the statement that few or no weapons makes it non-threatening to security forces, police, governments, etc, and thus keeps *them* from attacking it. it's just the part about bandits and similar watching a multi-million credit payday walk past because it lacks adequate means to protect itself that sounds absurd. that is exactly the sort of thing bandits should be attacking; sure, a merchant caravan may have more loot, but if you have to fight half a dozen guys in power armour that sounds too much like a fair fight. a poorly-defended target that is still worth a lot, even though it is a lot less than some other things, should be an extremely appealing target for banditry).

most bandit groups aren't going to have someone able to properly remove the choice bits, and in one piece it's near worthless on the black market between the massive expense of hiding the giant thing and locating a buyer for it. anyone willing to pay good for it is above board and will likely be able to afford a legit one, and anyone needing a research lab for crook stuff is gonna just buy the parts without the huge vulnerable robot wrapped around them. goods are only as valuable as they sell for and you're gonna have a HARD time flipping one of those, or a bunch of lab equipment. anyone with the kinda connections to do THAT probably has a lot of juicier grifts to run than knocking over the walking laboratory.

World Book Six:

The Amazon River now has two parts, the "old" Amazon River and the new "Greater Amazon" - now 15,000 miles long in total - except that isn't how rivers work, at all. Two separate rivers like that that converge aren't counted as the same river. Anyway....

the length is utterly impossible, as South America north to south is only about 4500 miles (northernmost point to southernmost point). The southern "Greater Amazon" is supposedly 9,000 miles long! Except... its more like 2,400 miles (yay 'Measure Distance' on Google Maps..)

9,000 miles....

/shakes head sadly into massive facepalm.

Thats about the distance from the southern tip of SA to the top of Canada.

Of course, when we get to the New West well have a similar gaffe, but damn.

Still, does back up my belief that Kevin really sees Rifts as Palladium Fantasy + Lasers and Robots, and doesn't understand the concept of distance, or how even having a vehicle that can do ~40-50mph means that its pretty much impossible for the "long travel times between adventures" trope to even exist.

Orin J. wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Orin J. wrote:i can see not bothering to attack a behemoth. the parts aren't gonna be common with that shape and a buncha research equipment is gonna be hard to move. it's a big pile of guns and stuff that doesn't sell for very much, why bother?

what makes you think it doesn't sell for very much? it's a big, *mobile* pile of expensive parts and lab equipment, including a nuclear reactor as I recall. the transportation issues take care of themselves. all wrapped up in a package that *doesn't* have a lot of guns, which is somehow supposed to act as a deterrent to bandits.

(again, I have no problem with the statement that few or no weapons makes it non-threatening to security forces, police, governments, etc, and thus keeps *them* from attacking it. it's just the part about bandits and similar watching a multi-million credit payday walk past because it lacks adequate means to protect itself that sounds absurd. that is exactly the sort of thing bandits should be attacking; sure, a merchant caravan may have more loot, but if you have to fight half a dozen guys in power armour that sounds too much like a fair fight. a poorly-defended target that is still worth a lot, even though it is a lot less than some other things, should be an extremely appealing target for banditry).

most bandit groups aren't going to have someone able to properly remove the choice bits, and in one piece it's near worthless on the black market between the massive expense of hiding the giant thing and locating a buyer for it. anyone willing to pay good for it is above board and will likely be able to afford a legit one, and anyone needing a research lab for crook stuff is gonna just buy the parts without the huge vulnerable robot wrapped around them. goods are only as valuable as they sell for and you're gonna have a HARD time flipping one of those, or a bunch of lab equipment. anyone with the kinda connections to do THAT probably has a lot of juicier grifts to run than knocking over the walking laboratory.

the black market exists all over north america, and buys and sells to plenty of people, both legitimate and not. it is, quite frankly, an unofficial official back-channel for northern gun, because that's the only way for them to sell to a large portion of the continent. which is another way of saying the black market functionally IS a legitimate vendor, at least in some parts of the continent (they are probably also a non-legitimate vendor in those same places, of course). if you see a "northern gun" outlet in lazlo (and there's no way northern gun is not selling to all the major adventurer/merc cities, most of which are not on the list the CS wants NG to be selling to), that's a black market outlet.

and no, hiding a robot - even a large one - is not that hard in rifts, at least against small organizations. the amount of untamed wilderness is huge, and much of it is covered by old growth forest. now, if you have reason to suspect that the behemoth is owned by the CS which has a huge air force and possibly actually could track you down if you make it worth their while because they have a huge army of sapient dogmen who are all trackers, then yeah, maybe you skip over attacking the lone behemoth. otherwise? the wilderness is very, very big, and the robot is very, very small in comparison, and the robot is expensive enough that even if you're getting a small percentage of the value, you're still getting a lot of money.

Mictla the Devourer keeps changing its sex and species between its different printings.

In CB1 Mictla's a male supernatural intelligence.
In CB3 Mictla's still a supernatural intelligence, but is now female.
In both D&G and DB10 Mictla's still female, but a demon lord now.
1st ED PFRPG main book Mictla is an it, and not mentioned as either a demon lord or a supernatural intelligence (but is written up in the demon section).

This one isn't a problem, necessarily, just a weird way to describe something

One of the Nuat'yll cities is described as being "2000 miles directly west of Guinea in Africa". Okay.. that checks out.. you're still in the Ocean there.

But you're only ~300 miles north of the mouth of the Amazon, where there is already a Nuat'yll city (the first one, in fact) only 60 miles from the mouth.

Why not just describe it as "300 miles north of the first city"?

Describing it as near Africa when it isn't anywhere near Africa is weird.

Re: Behemoth.

Its worth attacking as bandits even if you completely slag the main body.

Look at how much repairs cost to MDC armor.

Even if you completely slag the main body of the thing, youve got a couple thousand MDC of material to use to repair armor and vehicle armor. Just for that, its worth it, particularly since you aren't really going to have to take many lumps to do so.

And i find the idea/concept that Bandits dont have Operators or anyone with Armorer, Field Armorer, or Mechanical skills in their organizations to be kind of silly on its face.

i don't expect the bandits themselves to be doing that, i expect them to be selling to someone that does. and i don't think anyone buying contraband off them is gonna take something as large and easily tracked as a highly rare and specialized science transport off their hands for a good price. same way i wouldn't expect you could just shear off the armor and slap it onto everything, it's probably only viable for very large frames.....

the behemoth screams "too easy to get caught over" to me, which means nobody's gonna try to resell it unless they already had a buyer lined up. which means they're not going to have a good reason to go after one most of the time because who knows how much damage it'll have if you try and buy one under the table?

Orin J. wrote:i don't expect the bandits themselves to be doing that

Then we have what i'd call an impasse.

I dont share that opinion in the slightest. In fact, a number of the Bandit bands we DO have statted out (or NPCs for) have Operators or TWs or Technical Officers in them.

, i expect them to be selling to someone that does. and i don't think anyone buying contraband off them is gonna take something as large and easily tracked as a highly rare and specialized science transport off their hands for a good price.

Tracked by... who? There's no national authority here. So... some group out of Lazlo that you knocked off spends a ton of money to track down the parts of the Behemoth that you sold to the Black Market (somehow?) and then does.... what? Files a complaint with the Bandit Union? Goes vigilante? I mean, they dont need to track down the parts to go vigilante on you, just have a decent idea that you did it.

As for getting a "good price" - the Black Market never gives "good prices". About 10-15% on Robots or Large Vehicles. That's still MILLIONS.

same way i wouldn't expect you could just shear off the armor and slap it onto everything,

There are canon examples of it working EXACTLY that way, actually. MDC armor material is MDC armor material is MDC armor material, unless its Chromium based, and then you have to use Chromium armor to replace damaged armor. (Which is why its worth salvaging GBs who have been trashed - the legs and arms still have HUNDREDS of MDC worth of armor that can be used to repair other GBs).

it's probably only viable for very large frames.....

Pure supposition not supported by anything in the canon and actually refuted by it in a number of cases (where we are told that bringing in scavenged armor is a way a lot of scavengers make armor and that that armor is then used to repair other armor).

the behemoth screams "too easy to get caught over" to me,

Again.. caught by... who? The CS? Doubtful. Not a lot of CS citizens driving around Behemoths. They dont care about Bandits whacking off random people in the countryside that aren't citizens. Good riddance, as far as theyre concerned. Lazlo? Only matters if you're in their territory, which you probably aren't. They keep it pretty safe. Same with NG/MI.

There's no "Feds" to run you down. The worst you're going to get is .... the people who were friends/family of the people you whacked might come looking for revenge... just like literally any other group of people you and your bandit buddies whacked. And good luck to them with that, depending on where you hide out. They aren't just going to stroll into the Pecos Badlands and be allowed to go around looking for you. As just one example.

And the Black Market isnt going to be telling people who brought in a Behemoth. They aren't even going to admit they got it stolen. Whose going to make them tell the truth? Outside of the CS, FQ, NG/MI, and Lazlo, theyre the most powerful force on the continent. Its not like your friends are going to roll up to the local Black Market operation and be like "tell me everything about how you got that Behemoth (if he even knows, since it probably got shipped around to someplace it might actually sell)" and the guy running it is just gonna be like "oh, sure, let me rat out my criminal friends". He's going to tell you to get lost. And if you dont? He's going to have you killed. Probably about 30 seconds later. Youll refuse to go and a couple of well armed thugs will come out of the back and start shooting.

which means nobody's gonna try to resell it unless they already had a buyer lined up. which means they're not going to have a good reason to go after one most of the time because who knows how much damage it'll have if you try and buy one under the table?

I think you haven't read Black Market.

The Black Market would resell it even if there was still blood and brain matter all over it. Hell, theyll put it up for sale on the lot 10 minutes after it rolls in, still smoking and with the bodies still hanging out of the windows. Who exactly is going to come down on them? NG/MI and Lazlo literally CANT, as they rely on the Black Market to even exist. HALF of NG's business goes through the Black Market. ALL of the (very common and necessary) supplies that Lazlo gets from NG/MI come through the Black Market. And im not just talking guns - im talking tractors, trucks, cars, farm tools, you name it (as the Manistique Imperium is more about manufacturing life-goods than weapons, though they do have a few arms dealers like Wellington).

Someone going to come in to the Black Market yard and be like "that's stolen, give it back"? I dont think so. They might not take it back to the place it was originally from (like, yeah, if a group out of Lazlo was waxed to get it, they probably aren't going to ship it to Lazlo to sell, not that it will matter by the time it gets there, as it will have been thoroughly cleaned and refurbed - there's an entire Black Market OCC whose job it is to do that).

I think you've got too much of how things work in the real world, where no matter where you go you're under someones jurisdiction, and if you commit a crime in Place A, the authorities in Place F might care about that. That isn't how it works in Rifts Earth. There are huge swathes of North America that are NO ONES Jurisdiction. The Local Law in any of the Colorado Baronies, for example, isn't going to give a single solitary "F" that you have a warrant from Lazlo. Or even the next Barony over. He wont stop you trying to take them in - bounty hunting being legal in most of the Baronies for instance - as long as you dont start shooting up the place. But they aren't going to help you, they aren't going to place Bandit Joe and his friends under arrest, and they aren't going to run him out of town.

A bunch of bandits whacking a group in a Behemoth and either capturing it or salvaging the wreck have no more to fear than any other raid they might make. The only risk is that someone somehow ties you to it and comes to get some vigilante justice. Which, basically, is just an occupational hazard of being a bandit.

MDC armor replacement is very expensive, around 25k if I recall correctly, something like a behemoth has a lot of MDC material to melt down and repurpose.

Not just that, the thing could be sold to some high tech chop shop to part out.

Remember that a lot of components are modular.

Nobody cares where the nuclear reactor that they bought to replace the old one came from after all.

Then there are the medical/scientific bits on the inside. Black market items are often purchased by people who can't legitimately buy the items or who can't afford the full price.

Finally let's talk about refitting and frankensteining.

You get your hands on something like a behemoth, then find a Glitterboy boom gun. Marry the two together and suddenly you've got a pretty beefy tank. After all, the behemoth weighs enough to take the recoil.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Tracked by... who? There's no national authority here. So... some group out of Lazlo that you knocked off spends a ton of money to track down the parts of the Behemoth that you sold to the Black Market (somehow?) and then does.... what? Files a complaint with the Bandit Union?

anyone that can burn money on a behemoth is someone that both can afford to put out a bounty and likely has a "security force" which is a polite way of saying people who are ready to roll off and kill people trying to rob them. the behemoth has a stupid amount of reasons to be in near constant contact with their financing group after all. they can also post a bounty and given the sensors on the thing they probably have a pretty good description of the bandits.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I think you haven't read Black Market.

The Black Market would resell it even if there was still blood and brain matter all over it. Hell, theyll put it up for sale on the lot 10 minutes after it rolls in, still smoking and with the bodies still hanging out of the windows. Who exactly is going to come down on them? NG/MI and Lazlo literally CANT, as they rely on the Black Market to even exist. HALF of NG's business goes through the Black Market. ALL of the (very common and necessary) supplies that Lazlo gets from NG/MI come through the Black Market. And im not just talking guns - im talking tractors, trucks, cars, farm tools, you name it (as the Manistique Imperium is more about manufacturing life-goods than weapons, though they do have a few arms dealers like Wellington)

i think YOU haven't read the black market. it's not a single entity, it's more a combination labor union/talent network that operates for-profit. bandits pulling a opportunistic smash'n'grab aren't working for them, they're working with them. if the bandits roll up to town and find bounty hunters gunning for them the local fences in the black market have clearly never met these guys and are way too professional to work with them (who'd risk their enforcers for the right to spend their money?) so all you have for your trouble is a reputation as a bushwhacker. the black market doesn't owe you the right to sell to them, they do it if it's convenient. no point throwing you cash when the legal owners are there to violently repossess your giant easily found found contraband.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Then we have what i'd call an impasse.

boy do we!

Orin J. wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Tracked by... who? There's no national authority here. So... some group out of Lazlo that you knocked off spends a ton of money to track down the parts of the Behemoth that you sold to the Black Market (somehow?) and then does.... what? Files a complaint with the Bandit Union?

anyone that can burn money on a behemoth is someone that both can afford to put out a bounty and likely has a "security force" which is a polite way of saying people who are ready to roll off and kill people trying to rob them. the behemoth has a stupid amount of reasons to be in near constant contact with their financing group after all. they can also post a bounty and given the sensors on the thing they probably have a pretty good description of the bandits.

what, you mean, like, they're fully kitted out with MD weaponry and armour, but not one of the bandits ever thought "hey, we should get a radio to use as a jammer", or "hey, we should wear face masks so that we can't be immediately identified"? and yeah, the thing has sensors. but it's a scientific vehicle. it isn't designed for getting information that's going to ID bandits; you're not going to scan someone, detect the fingerprints on their gun from 500 feet away, and be able to consult a database that has their name, aliases, and last known address to transmit back to your home base. "at least a dozen people with laser rifles and a variety of armour types" isn't going to get you very far.

and having a security force is not the same thing as being able to send that security force anywhere. if they have one at all (and no, the ability to buy an expensive thing does not remotely imply you can afford every other large ongoing expense imaginable, any more than the fact that many people irl being able to buy a house and a car implies that they could afford to just arbitrarily add a full-time butler and maid to their budget), it's probably because they feel the need to protect their stuff somewhere else, they aren't going to send them away to the wilderness in the hopes of starting a war with the black market (which they probably rely on to get things they need). any bounty hunters they send are likely to arrive long after the fact, and quite frankly any bounty hunter group that can take down a group of armed bandits is not going to come cheap at all. all it takes is a couple of stray laser shots hitting a couple of people's armour and all of a sudden the expenses for a few seconds of fighting are in the hundreds of thousands, not to mention that every time any of those bounty hunters pull a trigger it's costing them a non-trivial amount of money. you better be willing to fork out enough money that you could almost buy a replacement behemoth to send off a small army to the middle of nowhere and probably still never get your behemoth back even if they DO manage to do something to the bandits, because by the time you get there it's probably already being moved to someplace else, and you have no realistic way of figuring out *where* that someplace else could be.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I think you haven't read Black Market.

The Black Market would resell it even if there was still blood and brain matter all over it. Hell, theyll put it up for sale on the lot 10 minutes after it rolls in, still smoking and with the bodies still hanging out of the windows. Who exactly is going to come down on them? NG/MI and Lazlo literally CANT, as they rely on the Black Market to even exist. HALF of NG's business goes through the Black Market. ALL of the (very common and necessary) supplies that Lazlo gets from NG/MI come through the Black Market. And im not just talking guns - im talking tractors, trucks, cars, farm tools, you name it (as the Manistique Imperium is more about manufacturing life-goods than weapons, though they do have a few arms dealers like Wellington)

i think YOU haven't read the black market. it's not a single entity, it's more a combination labor union/talent network that operates for-profit. bandits pulling a opportunistic smash'n'grab aren't working for them, they're working with them. if the bandits roll up to town and find bounty hunters gunning for them the local fences in the black market have clearly never met these guys and are way too professional to work with them (who'd risk their enforcers for the right to spend their money?) so all you have for your trouble is a reputation as a bushwhacker. the black market doesn't owe you the right to sell to them, they do it if it's convenient. no point throwing you cash when the legal owners are there to violently repossess your giant easily found found contraband.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Then we have what i'd call an impasse.

boy do we!

easily found how? it's a design that's been around for decades. and it isn't like there's some planetary authority that registers every single one of them. if the owners were the sort to have armies at their disposal, they likely wouldn't be the sort to buy an unarmed very non-military vehicle to do their exploring.

the black market makes a living off of shipping stuff around the continent - including a lot of very large things - without it being tracked. they even go so far as to steal stuff from the coalition states, the biggest baddest organization around with the most hired goons and the most detectives and trackers and police, who get *very* particular about anyone having their equipment without good reason, and get away with it. the kinds of people who are looking to buy a peaceful exploration vehicle are not going to be scaring the black market away from an opportunity to turn a profit. if they think someone might cause problems, they might offer you less money for what you're selling (more because the bandits might look desperate to sell than because the black market can't handle the heat), but no, they aren't deathly afraid of the explorer's guild of west podunksville to the point of refusing to do business with the bandits.

Shark_Force wrote:

Orin J. wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Tracked by... who? There's no national authority here. So... some group out of Lazlo that you knocked off spends a ton of money to track down the parts of the Behemoth that you sold to the Black Market (somehow?) and then does.... what? Files a complaint with the Bandit Union?

anyone that can burn money on a behemoth is someone that both can afford to put out a bounty and likely has a "security force" which is a polite way of saying people who are ready to roll off and kill people trying to rob them. the behemoth has a stupid amount of reasons to be in near constant contact with their financing group after all. they can also post a bounty and given the sensors on the thing they probably have a pretty good description of the bandits.

what, you mean, like, they're fully kitted out with MD weaponry and armour, but not one of the bandits ever thought "hey, we should get a radio to use as a jammer", or "hey, we should wear face masks so that we can't be immediately identified"? and yeah, the thing has sensors. but it's a scientific vehicle. it isn't designed for getting information that's going to ID bandits; you're not going to scan someone, detect the fingerprints on their gun from 500 feet away, and be able to consult a database that has their name, aliases, and last known address to transmit back to your home base. "at least a dozen people with laser rifles and a variety of armour types" isn't going to get you very far.

if any group of people is going to 1: understand how to broadcast video of something happening to them and 2: have someone with expertise in transmitting through interference it's going to be a science expedition. and when's the last time you heard of anyone replacing their armor/weapons because someone caught them on tape in rifts to begin with? a bandit's bodged-up suit of samson power armor might as well be a fingerprint at this point. especially if they have a half-decent security team with a strike force like you'd fully expect anything operating in rifts which has no federal legal system to have if they can afford a giant robot JUST for science.

i get what you're going for, but you're leaning closer to "the black market is an elite organization that actively maintains ALL THESE CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES SMOOTHLY and they aren't that. they're several groups of criminal enterprises affiliated for the sake of individual benefit and the bandits are just taking a big risk because you assume the system can magically make everything work. hell, it's more likely whoever they attacked will be able to send a strike team to recover it before they GET the thing somewhere they can properly strip it for parts given what it is.

Japan lists the Arma-Tech Particle Beam pistol as the "only human made particle beam pistol on Earth!"

.... but, you know, WB5 has a Triax Particle Beam pistol.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Japan lists the Arma-Tech Particle Beam pistol as the "only human made particle beam pistol on Earth!"

.... but, you know, WB5 has a Triax Particle Beam pistol.

Then clearly that one's not human-made.

Orin J. wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Tracked by... who? There's no national authority here. So... some group out of Lazlo that you knocked off spends a ton of money to track down the parts of the Behemoth that you sold to the Black Market (somehow?) and then does.... what? Files a complaint with the Bandit Union?

anyone that can burn money on a behemoth is someone that both can afford to put out a bounty and likely has a "security force" which is a polite way of saying people who are ready to roll off and kill people trying to rob them. the behemoth has a stupid amount of reasons to be in near constant contact with their financing group after all. they can also post a bounty and given the sensors on the thing they probably have a pretty good description of the bandits.

lolwut? You cant even do that on Rifts Earth. Once you're more than ~400 miles from home, you're out of contact. Period. There's no satellite communications, no longer range radios, nothing. Read the two Dino Swamp books. That guy was out of contact with Lazlo after like week one. And he had one of the new super behemoths (well, the prototype version, as the new one was supposedly based on the modifications that guy wanted made).

And like.. there are these things called "jammers". Theyre cheap. Hell, Bandito even sells a SAM with them built in. Not that it matters.

And how exactly do you get a "good description" of bandits who opened up on your Robot from ~2000+ft out and slagged the main body without ever coming any closer or popping out of cover?

Do you believe that all battles take place on open fields with 360 degree, perfect-zoom cameras all around?

The stuff you are making up here is absurd. we KNOW from canon material that this is NOT how things work. There's canon material that even CS patrols attacked INSIDE CS TERRITORY, who are IN CONTACT with their base, get slagged and their gear carried off all the time, and the Coalition has no idea who did it. You'd think if anyone had a "good description" of the Bandits attacking them, and was ACTUALLY in constant contact with base, would be able to pass that info along and those bandits would just be meat for the CS... yet we know for absolutely 100% certain that if you can attack, slag, and loot a patrol fast enough, its pretty easy to get away scott free before the reinforcements arrive.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I think you haven't read Black Market.

The Black Market would resell it even if there was still blood and brain matter all over it. Hell, theyll put it up for sale on the lot 10 minutes after it rolls in, still smoking and with the bodies still hanging out of the windows. Who exactly is going to come down on them? NG/MI and Lazlo literally CANT, as they rely on the Black Market to even exist. HALF of NG's business goes through the Black Market. ALL of the (very common and necessary) supplies that Lazlo gets from NG/MI come through the Black Market. And im not just talking guns - im talking tractors, trucks, cars, farm tools, you name it (as the Manistique Imperium is more about manufacturing life-goods than weapons, though they do have a few arms dealers like Wellington)

i think YOU haven't read the black market.

Stop projecting your failings on others. You do it every time you're caught out not knowing the material.

it's not a single entity,

Both correct and wildly incorrect. They are 5 major organizations, each of whom also controls (completely) several smaller organizations that they have basically taken over any time someone starts up a new operation that gets too big. Its either join or die.

And the five factions work in concert with one another, by mutual agreement.

it's more a combination labor union/talent network that operates for-profit. bandits pulling a opportunistic smash'n'grab aren't working for them, they're working with them.

Mostly incorrect again. Its right there in Black Market that the various factions do, in fact, DIRECTLY employ bandits to bring in new material. Are the MAJORITY of Bandits doing this? Probably not, because the "majority" of Bandits on the continent are from the Pecos Empire (nearly 3/4 of a million of them), and while they raid out as far as Canada, they can and do just take their booty home and do whatever they want with it.

No vigilante force is just gonna stroll into the Empire and be like "we're here 'cause you killed some of our friends and took their vehicle". Theyll get murdilated immediately. But the Black Market operates openly in Pecos. But there's a decent chance that any particular non-Pecos group of Bandits is working directly for the Black Market or has a major contact who gladly takes anything they bring in off their hands with zero questions asked.

if the bandits roll up to town and find bounty hunters gunning for them the local fences in the black market have clearly never met these guys and are way too professional to work with them (who'd risk their enforcers for the right to spend their money?) so all you have for your trouble is a reputation as a bushwhacker. the black market doesn't owe you the right to sell to them, they do it if it's convenient. no point throwing you cash when the legal owners are there to violently repossess your giant easily found found contraband.

You are aware that there are entire trading posts set up and run ENTIRELY by the Black Market... right? Theyre even Detailed in Black Market. The "legal owners" aren't going to repossess ANYTHING. Theyre going to be shot the moment they go for their weapons, for causing trouble at a Black Market market town. The Black Market doesn't recognize your "legal ownership". Legal to who? There's no federal government here. Once it leaves your possession, its not yours anymore, unless you can take it back by force. You go ahead and try that with the Black Market. Youll find that you cant sell anything to the Black Market or buy from them, which means unless you stick to towns that have "legitimate" outlets you're going to have a hard time buying anything, ever.

Besides, you're acting like this isn't just a run of the mill occupational hazard for being a Bandit... at all. Every time you bushwhack ANYONE you run the risk of pissing someone off and someone coming to you for reprisal. Nothing about the Behemoth or its price makes it MORE likely that a group that owns one is going to come after you (somehow?). And we're told that they dont attack Behemoths because they are "peaceful", meaning that they DO attack heavily armed convoys? (That 100% undoubtably have WAY more credits worth of arms/armor/vehicles).

Try to make some kind of sense, man.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Then we have what i'd call an impasse.

boy do we!

Well, its a natural outcome when one person reads the material and sticks to the facts presented (wether he likes them or not; there are plenty of things in Rifts i think are silly and should be removed/revamped/work differently) and the other person just sorta... makes stuff up ("surely they are in CONSTANT CONTACT with their home base!" - even though this is literally impossible on Rifts Earth).

Enjoy ignore.

The Beast wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Japan lists the Arma-Tech Particle Beam pistol as the "only human made particle beam pistol on Earth!"

.... but, you know, WB5 has a Triax Particle Beam pistol.

Then clearly that one's not human-made.

Well, is Triax really human anymore?

Anyway, im also... confounded by H-Brand.

Like..99% of their stuff is just straight knock-offs of Arma-tech designs....

But theyve been around and producing their OWN stuff for almost 200 years before Arma-Tech showed back up....

Why would they bother knocking off Arma-Tech?

Where is their OWN material?

Just super-lazy writing on the part of Kev and Co. there, IMO.

The Beast wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Japan lists the Arma-Tech Particle Beam pistol as the "only human made particle beam pistol on Earth!"

.... but, you know, WB5 has a Triax Particle Beam pistol.

Then clearly that one's not human-made.

Northern Gun also makes one. it's pretty good

Orin J. wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Orin J. wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Tracked by... who? There's no national authority here. So... some group out of Lazlo that you knocked off spends a ton of money to track down the parts of the Behemoth that you sold to the Black Market (somehow?) and then does.... what? Files a complaint with the Bandit Union?

anyone that can burn money on a behemoth is someone that both can afford to put out a bounty and likely has a "security force" which is a polite way of saying people who are ready to roll off and kill people trying to rob them. the behemoth has a stupid amount of reasons to be in near constant contact with their financing group after all. they can also post a bounty and given the sensors on the thing they probably have a pretty good description of the bandits.

what, you mean, like, they're fully kitted out with MD weaponry and armour, but not one of the bandits ever thought "hey, we should get a radio to use as a jammer", or "hey, we should wear face masks so that we can't be immediately identified"? and yeah, the thing has sensors. but it's a scientific vehicle. it isn't designed for getting information that's going to ID bandits; you're not going to scan someone, detect the fingerprints on their gun from 500 feet away, and be able to consult a database that has their name, aliases, and last known address to transmit back to your home base. "at least a dozen people with laser rifles and a variety of armour types" isn't going to get you very far.

if any group of people is going to 1: understand how to broadcast video of something happening to them and 2: have someone with expertise in transmitting through interference it's going to be a science expedition. and when's the last time you heard of anyone replacing their armor/weapons because someone caught them on tape in rifts to begin with? a bandit's bodged-up suit of samson power armor might as well be a fingerprint at this point. especially if they have a half-decent security team with a strike force like you'd fully expect anything operating in rifts which has no federal legal system to have if they can afford a giant robot JUST for science.

i get what you're going for, but you're leaning closer to "the black market is an elite organization that actively maintains ALL THESE CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES SMOOTHLY and they aren't that. they're several groups of criminal enterprises affiliated for the sake of individual benefit and the bandits are just taking a big risk because you assume the system can magically make everything work. hell, it's more likely whoever they attacked will be able to send a strike team to recover it before they GET the thing somewhere they can properly strip it for parts given what it is.

ah yes. if anyone is going to be an expert at... broadcasting... through hostile jamming... it's going to be people who never broadcast anything, because the CS will hunt them down and murderize them.... riiiight...

I mean, I'm not sure there even IS a device that allows you to broadcast video more than a few hundred feet in rifts, never mind cut through interference with a standard-issue radio to broadcast full picture to someone hundreds of miles away.

Shark_Force wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Japan lists the Arma-Tech Particle Beam pistol as the "only human made particle beam pistol on Earth!"

.... but, you know, WB5 has a Triax Particle Beam pistol.

Then clearly that one's not human-made.

Northern Gun also makes one. it's pretty good

Also, there's the FIWS, which was developed by the CS under Colonel Lyboc.
It's not technically a pistol, but it does have two built-in particle beams that do 5d6 MD each, with a range of 500' and a payload of 30 shots.
If the CS can make THAT as a forearm weapon, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to make a pistol version.

Oh, the Particle Beam pistol thing i was pointing out because a book had *already been released that had one*.

I dont have an issue with other companies/places eventually cooking up their own, like the NG-45LP or FIWS, etc.

It was just.. WB5 was released some time before WB8, so uh.... that line was false when it was written.

Not... weird per se, but worth noting:

WB13, Fleets of the Three Galaxies:

Phoenix Light (Space Magic Spell, level 14):

for the paltry price of 1000 PPE (yes, it seems like a lot, well get to that) you can make any ship go 2LY/Hour, PER LEVEL, for Character Level Hours. WITH a packaged in Stellar Navigation skill of 88%.

The BEST Tech based drives get 8-ish LY per hour (7 according to Three Galaxies, but some of the CCW and TG military ships get up to 8 or 9, IIRC)...

So once you've got a guy whose 5th level, you're going faster than any tech ship can hope to go.

And yeah, 1000 PPE seems like a lot - until you realize that most UWW ships are SWIMMING in mages. Easy enough to get the 1000 PPE for the guy who needs it, not to mention a lot of those ships have giant PPE batteries specifically for the on-board mages to use.

14th level seems like "so high level no one has it" but all of that goes out the window when you're talking Interstellar-Government scale organizations and budgets.

The UWW could easily afford to make sure the top 3-5 casters on any given ship have this spell. And those guys are likely to be a lot higher level than 5th.

Certainly explains (Coupled with the teleportation/Rifting ability of the Tangent Stations) how the UWW can defend its space with a much smaller total fleet.

They can get there a lot faster than you can, most likely.

The typical Juicer has a PS of 23, and can carry 1,840 pounds.
(PS * 20 = 460, but Juicers can carry/lift four times as much as someone of equivalent PS... 460 * 4 = 1,840)

But a typical Royal Frilled Dragon as a Supernatural PS of 24, and can only carry 1,200 pounds.
(PS * 25 = 1,200)

So who would win an arm-wrestling competition? Juicer's is Augmented 23, while the dragon's is Supernatural 24 (a higher category and higher number).


[The PS thing has driven me nuts for a while.]

Mack wrote:The typical Juicer has a PS of 23, and can carry 1,840 pounds.
(PS * 20 = 460, but Juicers can carry/lift four times as much as someone of equivalent PS... 460 * 4 = 1,840)

But a typical Royal Frilled Dragon as a Supernatural PS of 24, and can only carry 1,200 pounds.
(PS * 25 = 1,200)

So who would win an arm-wrestling competition? Juicer's is Augmented 23, while the dragon's is Supernatural 24 (a higher category and higher number).


[The PS thing has driven me nuts for a while.]

I'd down-convert the SNPS into the juicer's PS scale and then... go with who has the better lifting capability? Or maybe have both roll 1d20+PS score for the best out of three? No matter what, it starts with getting everyone on the same scale.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Not... weird per se, but worth noting:

WB13, Fleets of the Three Galaxies:

Phoenix Light (Space Magic Spell, level 14):

for the paltry price of 1000 PPE (yes, it seems like a lot, well get to that) you can make any ship go 2LY/Hour, PER LEVEL, for Character Level Hours. WITH a packaged in Stellar Navigation skill of 88%.

The BEST Tech based drives get 8-ish LY per hour (7 according to Three Galaxies, but some of the CCW and TG military ships get up to 8 or 9, IIRC)...

So once you've got a guy whose 5th level, you're going faster than any tech ship can hope to go.

And yeah, 1000 PPE seems like a lot - until you realize that most UWW ships are SWIMMING in mages. Easy enough to get the 1000 PPE for the guy who needs it, not to mention a lot of those ships have giant PPE batteries specifically for the on-board mages to use.

14th level seems like "so high level no one has it" but all of that goes out the window when you're talking Interstellar-Government scale organizations and budgets.

The UWW could easily afford to make sure the top 3-5 casters on any given ship have this spell. And those guys are likely to be a lot higher level than 5th.

Certainly explains (Coupled with the teleportation/Rifting ability of the Tangent Stations) how the UWW can defend its space with a much smaller total fleet.

They can get there a lot faster than you can, most likely.

I always have to preface discussions of this with I love what Braden TRIED to do with Fleets and Thundercloud he really tried to develop the Three Galaxies and he is the last person to try, there has been nothing in this series in 9 years. Also, I'm not sure if the space magic was even him I think that was all someone else. That being said the book is just a disaster, it is the only Rifts book where I told my players that nothing in the book was in our game unless I approved it. This is the opposite of what I normally do which is assume it is OK unless we hit a problem with it.

The thing is, in terms of a player group the spell is actually not that bad. I have never run a group with more than 2 mages and the PPE cost is high enough that when combined with the fact that the mage must remain focused, i.e. no actions at all while traveling. The problem comes in universe the way you describe it. Any group with a large number of mages could move a Battleship at like 20 LYpH. That would be insane in game.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Another fun find:
NPC "Thankless" on page 29 of SoT3 has an L-20 Pulse Rifle.
Nothing out of the ordinary here, except that he's had it forever and is +1 to strike with it...
And...
Somehow, if the CS got their hands on it, they'd be able to "connect Thankless with a long history of Anti-Coalition attacks".
Saywut?
Are they like.... matching laser ballistics?
This one made me seriously facepalm.

I was thinking more like Object Read. The CS probably has a policy of having someone in Psi-Net scan all appropriated weapons to see if they were used in crimes.

The Beast wrote:Mictla the Devourer keeps changing its sex and species between its different printings.

In CB1 Mictla's a male supernatural intelligence.
In CB3 Mictla's still a supernatural intelligence, but is now female.
In both D&G and DB10 Mictla's still female, but a demon lord now.
1st ED PFRPG main book Mictla is an it, and not mentioned as either a demon lord or a supernatural intelligence (but is written up in the demon section).

D&G came out before CB3 (Dark Conversions) so the order should probably reflect that.

Mictla could be bigender/hermaphrodite or use deific powers to change its/his/her sex so it's not really that complicated using Alter Primal Manifestation.

The bigger problem than whether to classify these chars as AIs or Demon Lords is actually their statistical differences between the AIs in CB/DC and D&G

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:This one isn't a problem, necessarily, just a weird way to describe something

One of the Nuat'yll cities is described as being "2000 miles directly west of Guinea in Africa". Okay.. that checks out.. you're still in the Ocean there.

But you're only ~300 miles north of the mouth of the Amazon, where there is already a Nuat'yll city (the first one, in fact) only 60 miles from the mouth.

Why not just describe it as "300 miles north of the first city"?

Describing it as near Africa when it isn't anywhere near Africa is weird.

Perhaps a typo like they meant to say 200 miles directly west?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:there are these things called "jammers". Theyre cheap. Hell, Bandito even sells a SAM with them built in. Not that it matters.

would be interesting to find the cost of these on their own and how easy they would be to use to interfere with long-range radio and how they would be placed/activated strategically

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The UWW could easily afford to make sure the top 3-5 casters on any given ship have this spell. And those guys are likely to be a lot higher level than 5th.

Or if they don't want to give out power that easily (jealous mages and all) you could just have one high level mage safe at home put it on a scroll (which also deals with the problem of needing to get the PPE) which would allow for its use by ANY member of the ship (in case the high-level mages on board are disabled) and while it's possible to learn spells from scrolls it's a tricky business and it's probably not too hard to secure those scrolls.

You could probably also have Techno-Wizards build this into a device to lower the PPE cost using the new RUE construction optional rules.

Axelmania wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Another fun find:
NPC "Thankless" on page 29 of SoT3 has an L-20 Pulse Rifle.
Nothing out of the ordinary here, except that he's had it forever and is +1 to strike with it...
And...
Somehow, if the CS got their hands on it, they'd be able to "connect Thankless with a long history of Anti-Coalition attacks".
Saywut?
Are they like.... matching laser ballistics?
This one made me seriously facepalm.

I was thinking more like Object Read. The CS probably has a policy of having someone in Psi-Net scan all appropriated weapons to see if they were used in crimes.

i have to wonder if the coalition would actually accept object read are evidence in that sort of matter- it's one of the more more "mystical powers" sort of powers and it's not like it can be proven in any way. i mean mystics gain their magic powers naturally like psionics and the CS definitely doesn't mess with them so classing a few more suspect psionics as magic and forbidding them entirely would probably be their style.
"astral plane? sounds like shifter trickery to me, lock them up!"

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:While going through the Siege on Tolkeen books (looking for snip

Pretty sure the ppe clip is in federation of magic, and the unique items were made using item creation rules. Or what the author remebered of the off the top of there head.

Prysus wrote:

Orin J. wrote:i have to wonder if the coalition would actually accept object read are evidence in that sort of matter- it's one of the more more "mystical powers" sort of powers and it's not like it can be proven in any way. i mean mystics gain their magic powers naturally like psionics and the CS definitely doesn't mess with them so classing a few more suspect psionics as magic and forbidding them entirely would probably be their style.
"astral plane? sounds like shifter trickery to me, lock them up!"

Greetings and Salutations. That seems arbitrarily dismissive of powers. Whether or not they can "sound" mystical is irrelevant. They can be objectively demonstrated to be psychic in nature (or at least non-magical).

Dog Boys are created by the Coalition. Each has a standard set of powers, plus 1 Sensitive power. There are 24 Sensitive powers in RUE (I checked, and didn't see any extra in RGMG). They have 4 of those Sensitive powers automatically. That leaves 20 Sensitive Powers remaining. Of those powers, both Astral Projection and Object Read are options. If we figure each of the powers has an even chance of developing, that's 5% of Dog Boys with Astral Projection and 5% with Object Read. So 10% of Dog Boys have one of those two powers. Since the Coalition literally creates Dog Boys, they can easily have controlled environments to ensure the Dog Boy didn't randomly study magic on the side.

But let's set that aside for now. Maybe you feel that the Coalition eliminates 10% of their creations because they suspect they continuously create Mystics on accident. If there's doubt, they can use Sense Magic (an ability possessed by ALL Dog Boys, and some other psychics). Psychics and children under 13 can see Astral Projection, and Sense Magic can verify if a magic spell was used or not. And, again, children under 13 can verify a person is using Astral Projection, so even if you don't trust a psychic's word you can just grab a group of non-psychic, human children to verify the power is in use.

For Object Read, you can't see what the psychic saw for verification. I'm not really convinced the Coalition demands hard evidence of crimes against the Coalition, but let's say they're super diligent and care enough to verify beyond a reasonable doubt. They can still set up experiments with a group of psychics who possess Object Read, put them in isolated rooms, and hand each of them the object to read. Even if there is some variance, there's bound to be some consistency as well (and the larger the pool, the larger you can find commonalities). If you're simply trying to verify Object Read works in general, you can help verify accuracy of Object Read in general. You provide a known item from a known source, and then you can verify that accuracy of the visions since you already know all the information. This will have mixed results in the field when dealing with an unknown suspect, but again, I'm still really skeptical the Coalition would care about hard facts and undeniable proof.

The powers can be proven to work (in general), and proven to be psychic (or at least non-magical) in nature. Beyond that is just a question if you feel the Coalition demands irrefutable proof before moving forward on any action. Farewell and safe journeys.

Boy, you're awful quick to take things into a hard binary! if a psychic has astral projection (which you can't measure what astral projection IS or how to deal with the threats caused in using it) you simply teach all forces it's highly dangerous and should not be attempted. any dog boys that show a tendency to toy with it are reprimanded and assigned to low-priority positions like the burbs where they can't stumble on important info.

with object read, where you can't be clear what about the object is being "read" or that the object can't have that altered with outside powers, you simply treat it like a soldier having a hunch. used when they're a trusted element and have been reliable, but discarded any real need for verification is required. and certainly not made part of officail protocol in case magical elements have in fact found a way to manipulate the power for counter-intelligence reasons.

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:While going through the Siege on Tolkeen books (looking for snip

Pretty sure the ppe clip is in federation of magic, and the unique items were made using item creation rules. Or what the author remebered of the off the top of there head.

yeah, they're FOM, although they get mentioned in the tolkeen books a few times. one of those special developments limited to stormspire.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:King Creed (SoT6) does mega damage from punches. No reason given. He just does.

See, 'ol Bob Creed is no scholarly pansy! Don't mess with this King! Nanomachines Magic son!

Shark_Force wrote:for another facepalm moment in palladium books, if I'm remembering correctly in the northern gun writeup of the behemoth explorer, it mentions that bandits (along with everyone else, but this is the group that made me facepalm) will avoid attacking the behemoth because it's a peaceful unarmed robot vehicle. who knew bandits were so respectful of pacifism?

Weird. I mean, even if you've got nowhere to sell a huge robot, you could still strip it for parts and equipment. Sensors, computers, scientific devices, etc. A Behemoth is loaded up with all kinds of stuff that could be sold.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Japan lists the Arma-Tech Particle Beam pistol as the "only human made particle beam pistol on Earth!"

.... but, you know, WB5 has a Triax Particle Beam pistol.

The Beast wrote:Then clearly that one's not human-made.

The truth is that the Triax R&D Fairies are actual fairies

Prysus wrote: I stated how they could get proof of abilities working. So they can be proven in at least some ways.

can you prove they're working in a way that isn't subject to control via magic? your argument assumes that "it works, so they'ed use it" and ignores the fact you're looking at the setting from outside knowing the setting mechanics. from the position of the CS, object read is accepting objects have some sort of ghost that can track everything they do that isn't otherwise perceptible or detectable, but is somehow trustworthy and not subject to magic. this is a bridge too far for what i've read of the CS.

as for the astral plane having their psi-forces use it, go catatonic, and then die with no way to understand why alone seems like plenty of reason not to fiddle with it as highly dangerous.

Prysus wrote:You keep making things up. You're either mistaken again, or flat out lying. My argument is that saying that the powers can't be "proven in any way" is incorrect. I demonstrated how earlier. My argument is that "classing a few more suspect psionics as magic" is something that can be proven false, and a method widely available to the CS if they cared. I don't care if the CS uses it or not. I don't play Rifts, and have little to no interest in the CS itself. But you flat out made up false claims, and I corrected them.

i said they would probably not consider it reliable, that's all. you've done nothing but argue that by the game mechanics they can verify said game mechanics using game mechanics and this is proof enough they would trust it while ignoring my actual point and i'm a little tired of you being rude with polite language.

i honestly don't care in any way what you think of my opinion on the coalition's view of trusting psionics, but if you're going to post about rules entries to contridict setting politics i'm going to invite you to save yourself the time and just not reply to me about it. eesh.

Orin J. wrote:

Axelmania wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Another fun find:
NPC "Thankless" on page 29 of SoT3 has an L-20 Pulse Rifle.
Nothing out of the ordinary here, except that he's had it forever and is +1 to strike with it...
And...
Somehow, if the CS got their hands on it, they'd be able to "connect Thankless with a long history of Anti-Coalition attacks".
Saywut?
Are they like.... matching laser ballistics?
This one made me seriously facepalm.

I was thinking more like Object Read. The CS probably has a policy of having someone in Psi-Net scan all appropriated weapons to see if they were used in crimes.

i have to wonder if the coalition would actually accept object read are evidence in that sort of matter- it's one of the more more "mystical powers" sort of powers and it's not like it can be proven in any way.

The CS trusts Dog Boys' and Psi-Stalkers' supernatural detection powers, and those are pretty "mystical."
And it's the kind of power where if it's not obvious (i.e., "that dragon is supernatural!"), then it would often be unprovable (i.e., "this guy is a witch!").

And what we're looking at overall is:
The CS could officially track that weapon's history somehow, using an unspecified means.
Object Read IS one means which could accomplish that task.
So it makes more sense to assume that the means is Object Read (or a similar power) than it does to assume that the books are wrong about the CS being able to track that kind of thing.

honestly with palladium books it makes more sense to assume the writer didn't have an explanation and just wants to stick it in there. given it's one of the oldest laser rifle designs in the setting means it would be connected to "a long history of Anti-Coalition attacks" just by reputation, i doubt they'd need to run it past anyone to verify that before tossing it in impound for destruction..... i mean i don't think they're in the habit of returning mega-damage weapons they confiscate even when they aren't in a warzone.......

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Not... weird per se, but worth noting:

WB13, Fleets of the Three Galaxies:

Phoenix Light (Space Magic Spell, level 14):.

You just made my day with this.

Besides pointing out I'm missing. big toy to play with, you've recast the UWW In a more favorable light as a power to be reckoned with. This explains a lot about the UWW and almost compensates for the failure of the UWW book to materialize.

taalismn wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Not... weird per se, but worth noting:

WB13, Fleets of the Three Galaxies:

Phoenix Light (Space Magic Spell, level 14):.

You just made my day with this.

Besides pointing out I'm missing. big toy to play with, you've recast the UWW In a more favorable light as a power to be reckoned with. This explains a lot about the UWW and almost compensates for the failure of the UWW book to materialize.

you wanna really leverage it, check out the rules for sorcerous proficiencies and limitations in nightbane book 3 if you have it. you'll probably want to look particularly closely at the entry for 21-30 Ritual Magic on page 25 (you may also wish to consider sorcerous limitation 16-25 Ritual Dependence on page 27 in combination), or 81-90 Group Casting on page 26 (note that while this cannot be combined with other sorcerous proficiencies, no such restriction is given regarding limitations, so Ritual Dependence can still improve this although there are obvious drawbacks).

also, pay special attention to the last paragraph before the sorcerous proficiencies start, on page 24 (I mean, you should probably read that whole 5-paragraph segment, but the last paragraph just gives you that extra bit of oomph you may be looking for). it's a little bit unclear what it should mean in some cases, but I'm sure you'll manage

basically, you can probably have a handful of specialists stationed in a few locations around the UWW powering up spaceships for an exceptionally long time