Old Kingdom weather...

[Braden Campbell]

Being in the middle of the continent, the Old Kingdom probably sees less rainfall than other parts of the world. However, would not storms form from time to time over the Scarlet Sea, and then be carried inland by the western winds?

And what effect, if any, would the mountains have re. weather patterns?

[Warshield73]

Oh I get to play geography teacher on the forums again. So I am no expert but going strictly by the maps in the books and the height of the mountains as listed and using real world mountains as examples but the mountains around the Old Kingdom should have little effect on the weather of the region. They are too short to act as a rain shadow the way the Rocky's do and it is surrounded by inland seas and oceans on all sides so their should be precipitation on all sides.

The one impact I could see is on temperature. If there is a difference in temperature between north and south then it should create an area on the southern side of the mountains that holds the southern temperature in so if it is warn in the south then the southern side is going to be hotter or vice versa.

Just what I could get by comparing my geography materials to the map.

[Braden Campbell]

Well, since we find giraffes and,other African savana animals in the OK Southern lowlands (but not in the western or eastern ones) you may be right.

[Maddog]

Oh I get to play geography teacher on the forums again. So I am no expert but going strictly by the maps in the books and the height of the mountains as listed and using real world mountains as examples but the mountains around the Old Kingdom should have little effect on the weather of the region. They are too short to act as a rain shadow the way the Rocky's do and it is surrounded by inland seas and oceans on all sides so their should be precipitation on all sides.

The one impact I could see is on temperature. If there is a difference in temperature between north and south then it should create an area on the southern side of the mountains that holds the southern temperature in so if it is warn in the south then the southern side is going to be hotter or vice versa.

Just what I could get by comparing my geography materials to the map.

Extra Rune Swords are cool and all, but this really is the sort of content I come to the forum for!

[kiralon]

One thing that could effect the weather greatly in the area is the water sink that the baalgor wastelands is, as it magically hoovers up water.

[Warshield73]

One thing that could effect the weather greatly in the area is the water sink that the baalgor wastelands is, as it magically hoovers up water.

I had forgotten about this but I think it is more likely to have an impact on the western area of the kingdom and along the coast of the Scarlet Sea. It's just too far away and is mostly surrounded by mountains of it's own to block the effects.

[Prysus]

So I am no expert but going strictly by the maps in the books and the height of the mountains as listed and using real world mountains as examples but the mountains around the Old Kingdom should have little effect on the weather of the region. They are too short to act as a rain shadow the way the Rocky's do ...

Greetings and Salutations. I definitely don't know much about how the terrain affects weather, but I'm curious what you mean by they're "too short"? Do you mean the length/how far they stretch across the land? Or do you mean height/peak? Because you mention height in the first sentence quoted (above), and that makes me think short is in reference to height.

Monsters & Animals Second Edition, page 14 (very top of page) states they're similar to the Rocky Mountains and lists the "average height of 20,000 feet (6096 m)." When I search for the height of the Rockies, I find: "14,433 feet (4,399 metres) is the highest point in the Rockies." So the "highest point" (if accurate) of the Rockies is still shorter than the "average" height of the Old Kingdom Mountains. Am I misunderstanding something? Or is there another quote that contradicts this one?

Same page also lists: "The Old Kingdom is a warm, humid land with sprawling plains, scattered deserts (particularly in the southwest), and marshlands, with deciduous and subtropical forests to the south, and rolling hills, lush lowlands, and scattered deciduous forests to the north and east."

And while the only thing we get that's close to weather is "warm, humid land," I think (but again, no expert) that by understanding the terrain (marshlands, deserts near Mt. Nimro, and subtropical forests probably closer to the South-Winds) that we might at least get a better hint at some of the weather? I genuinely don't know, but I'm hoping maybe it'll help someone else give a better picture. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Warshield73]

So I am no expert but going strictly by the maps in the books and the height of the mountains as listed and using real world mountains as examples but the mountains around the Old Kingdom should have little effect on the weather of the region. They are too short to act as a rain shadow the way the Rocky's do ...

Greetings and Salutations. I definitely don't know much about how the terrain affects weather, but I'm curious what you mean by they're "too short"? Do you mean the length/how far they stretch across the land? Or do you mean height/peak? Because you mention height in the first sentence quoted (above), and that makes me think short is in reference to height.

Monsters & Animals Second Edition, page 14 (very top of page) states they're similar to the Rocky Mountains and lists the "average height of 20,000 feet (6096 m)." When I search for the height of the Rockies, I find: "14,433 feet (4,399 metres) is the highest point in the Rockies." So the "highest point" (if accurate) of the Rockies is still shorter than the "average" height of the Old Kingdom Mountains. Am I misunderstanding something? Or is there another quote that contradicts this one?

Same page also lists: "The Old Kingdom is a warm, humid land with sprawling plains, scattered deserts (particularly in the southwest), and marshlands, with deciduous and subtropical forests to the south, and rolling hills, lush lowlands, and scattered deciduous forests to the north and east."

And while the only thing we get that's close to weather is "warm, humid land," I think (but again, no expert) that by understanding the terrain (marshlands, deserts near Mt. Nimro, and subtropical forests probably closer to the South-Winds) that we might at least get a better hint at some of the weather? I genuinely don't know, but I'm hoping maybe it'll help someone else give a better picture. Farewell and safe journeys.

Sorry, I did mix my terms here. I was trying to look things up in the book while doing my comparisons. I did mean that they are not long enough, as in they can not block enough of the inbound air on either the north or south side of the mountains. Fronts will simply move along the mountains and with bodies of water to both the north and south there is likely to be no rain shadow effect.

One thing I am curious about, and this could simply be the map I'm working from which is from the main book and the Game Masters kit, what separates the Old Kingdom from the land of the south winds. I didn't think to look it up while I was reading the books earlier because the map doesn't show a barrier but if there is something there then that would radically change the analysis.

[Prysus]

Sorry, I did mix my terms here.

Greetings and Salutations. No worries. If I understood the subject better I could've probably figured it out myself. Instead, all I can do is point to references and say: "Hey, does this help or change anything?" Then I just try to leave it up to people more knowledgeable than I.

One thing I am curious about, and this could simply be the map I'm working from which is from the main book and the Game Masters kit, what separates the Old Kingdom from the land of the south winds. I didn't think to look it up while I was reading the books earlier because the map doesn't show a barrier but if there is something there then that would radically change the analysis.

As far as I'm aware, the part of the South Winds separated by the bay is also mostly separated by the Old Kindgom Mountains. But there's not much overlap there. The part connected by land is only partially separated by rivers, but not much else. The South Winds actually has a fair bit of flat lands and savanna (not counting the jungle areas).

The Old Kingdom has hills, but those are in the north and east, so probably not a factor in separation. So it's probably sprawling plains, marshland (also common in the South Winds, so there's probably some transition), and maybe subtropical forests.

There might be something I'm missing, but that's what I know from memory and what little double checking I did tonight. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Braden Campbell]

South-east of Mt Nimro... that area is apparently all swamps and wetlands.

[kiralon]

The Baalgor wastelands book doesn't give exact height, but does say shorter than the rockies for the mountains between them, and there is a part that has no mountains at all.

I have always been curious about the equatorial line in palladium, and how it would line up (I always assumed it was a copyish of north america). The hot and cold places are a bit confusing, but in saying that there could be massive streams of warm water in the oceans we don't know about

[Warshield73]

The Baalgor wastelands book doesn't give exact height, but does say shorter than the rockies for the mountains between them, and there is a part that has no mountains at all.

I have always been curious about the equatorial line in palladium, and how it would line up (I always assumed it was a copyish of north america). The hot and cold places are a bit confusing, but in saying that there could be massive streams of warm water in the oceans we don't know about

I was going to bring this up in my last posted but I deleted it, thought it was too esoteric for these discussions.

I have not read all the books in detail but as far as I know we don't have even a basic climate map for palladium or are there even seasons. Air and water currents would be good too but truth be told if this is just a pocket dimension not sure if any of that makes a difference as the climate would largely be artificial.

[Braden Campbell]

There are seasons (it's not always winter in the Great Northern Wilderness, for example, and the Golden Coast has storms only certain parts of the year)...and the prevailing winds blow from west to east (Library).

Given the tropical climate of the south, I have always presumed an "equator" to lie south of the Floenries. Plenty of ocean then for hurricanes and whatnot to brew up in.

[Library Ogre]

There are seasons (it's not always winter in the Great Northern Wilderness, for example, and the Golden Coast has storms only certain parts of the year)...and the prevailing winds blow from west to east (Library).

Given the tropical climate of the south, I have always presumed an "equator" to lie south of the Floenries. Plenty of ocean then for hurricanes and whatnot to brew up in.

Not so much, since the Wall is there, but I think you're right about the Tropics.

[Warshield73]

There are seasons (it's not always winter in the Great Northern Wilderness, for example, and the Golden Coast has storms only certain parts of the year)...and the prevailing winds blow from west to east (Library).

Given the tropical climate of the south, I have always presumed an "equator" to lie south of the Floenries. Plenty of ocean then for hurricanes and whatnot to brew up in.

Not so much, since the Wall is there, but I think you're right about the Tropics.

Do we know how far away the wall is from say the southern and eastern coasts? If its less than say a thousand miles that's not a lot of room to develop naturally occurring storms.

I have brought this up on the forums before but what do we know about Palladium as a world. Does it have a real moon, is there an actual sun. Is it an actual flat world in orbit around a real sun or is Palladium a round world but most of it is blocked by the wall. You would need to know these things if you are trying to figure out greater climate information.

[Library Ogre]

I have brought this up on the forums before but what do we know about Palladium as a world. Does it have a real moon, is there an actual sun. Is it an actual flat world in orbit around a real sun or is Palladium a round world but most of it is blocked by the wall. You would need to know these things if you are trying to figure out greater climate information.

It's turtles all the way down.

[Warshield73]

I have brought this up on the forums before but what do we know about Palladium as a world. Does it have a real moon, is there an actual sun. Is it an actual flat world in orbit around a real sun or is Palladium a round world but most of it is blocked by the wall. You would need to know these things if you are trying to figure out greater climate information.

It's turtles all the way down.

Turtle or is it a giant Lo-Dox.

[Prysus]

Do we know how far away the wall is from say the southern and eastern coasts? If its less than say a thousand miles that's not a lot of room to develop naturally occurring storms.

Greetings and Salutations. Per Island at the Edge of the World, page 125, the black wall is approximately 600 miles (960 km) south of West Mnn (of the Floenry Islands). Keep in mind, the "black wall" is made of energy, and in general it's non-destructive. As this is not a physical barrier, it may not actually stop currents.

Dragons & Gods, page 178, second column (Common Rites and Sacrifices) tells us the South Winds does have hurricanes and monsoons during certain seasons. We're not told if these are natural or unnatural.

I have brought this up on the forums before but what do we know about Palladium as a world. Does it have a real moon, is there an actual sun. Is it an actual flat world in orbit around a real sun or is Palladium a round world but most of it is blocked by the wall. You would need to know these things if you are trying to figure out greater climate information.

Depends how you define "real," and how do you want the books to prove it as "real"?

So, before I begin this, I'll start with the whole "pocket dimension" thing that (as far as I'm aware) the only official hint at is from Rifts Dimension Book 7: Megaversal Builder (RDB7: MB), and should (in my opinion) by mostly ignored (since the whole section is rubbish). I'm going to include that rant in a Spoiler tag, and then I'll continue from there.

Spoiler:

Okay, RDB7: MB, pages 65-66 talk about the Palladium World.
1. This is all narrative, from a point of view, which is far from being factual in game.
2. This is listed as "the most comprehensive study" and "a fact-finding mission." However, from what's written, these facts are supported by about as much as a YouTube video talking about how masks make you sick because of carbon dioxide, and is about as comprehensive and factual.
3a. At one point they state how the presence of the Old Ones disrupts some Shifters' senses.
3b. Then we're told that the lack of Shifter senses causes some Shifters to suspect it's not a natural dimension (instead of the Old Ones presence as we were just told).
3c. Then they just go to say that it's believed (as, in general believed) that this is in a pocket dimension with zero support.
4. There's the claim that "historical records suggest it is a free floating land mass or plate," but whose historical records? This seems highly unlikely it's from records from the Palladium World, which means someone from somewhere else had to make these historical records ... and they're now willing to take it as gospel. If it was Palladium World records, it would be taking the word of people with a lack of science and strong belief in religion ... kind of like Earth's history saying the world was flat. Either way, it's seriously lacking any facts. They don't ever once mention being able to see extreme distance due to no curvature of the world ... just a random statement ... from an unnamed source ... and they're willing to pass off as fact.
5. They acknowledge the Palladium World as having stars and (potentially) other planets ... and this is support for it being a pocket dimension (a micro universe, but still a pocket dimension).
6. They see stars, but they personally haven't been there and neither have any of their friends ... so maybe the starts aren't really there ... which has some level of science (as it can't be proven), but more in line with conspiracy theories.
7. They know random rifts that open to and from there, but not as frequently as on Rifts Earth ... so more support for a pocket dimension I guess? Lack of frequent rifts also makes Heroes Unlimited, Nightbane, Beyond the Supernatural (with Victor Lazlo, who don't they know at least of?), and other settings as even more secret and secluded pocket dimensions I guess?
8. They note it has a connection to the dimension of Hades and could be parallel dimensions ... so Hades is also a pocket dimension then? This one might be my personal lack of science and maybe both are possible.
9. They call it the "most comprehensive study" (as stated earlier), but then they also say that going to the Baalgor Wastelands would've been too far south to travel. So they tell us they didn't bother even going to I'd say at least 1/3 of the world, because it was too far south to bother on this "comprehensive study." The only places they actually mention studying (in any capacity) are the Land of the Damned and Ophid's Grasslands. There's zero mention of the Wolfen (who are right in that area) that I can see.

What we're told in the various books include things like ...

Dragons & Gods, page 135 (last paragraph, The Almanac of Light & Dark): We're told that the Church of Light & Dark hold astronomical records that go back over 10,000 years; and that they chart "the positions of the stars and planets, and the rising and setting times of the sun and the moon (keyed for the different longitudes) ..." This not only tells us that there are stars and planets, but also that the rising and setting of the sun and moon changes times depending on where you are on the Palladium World.

Dragons & Gods, in general, has plenty of other references to the sun, moon, and stars.

RDB7: MB, page 65 (if anything in this section has any validity at all) tells us the passage of time is the same as Earth (not sure that's really helpful, but it's something and you asked for what is known).

We know they have seasons, and Northern Hinterlands talks a bit about the months (in that passage, they use the same months as the Gregorian calendar).

There's a "black wall" of energy in the south, but no evidence it goes north at all.

There's another continent north of Bizantium (with Iceborn and an ice theme).

The north is cold (Northern Hinterlands, the other continent, etc.). The south is oppressively hot (South-Winds and Yin-Sloth Jungles).

East and west of the mainland, as far as I'm aware, is unexplored (there could be other continents, you might fall off the edge, or you might travel around the world).

Kevin (in the past) has talked about plans for the other side of the world (he talked about this quite a bit around the time James Cameron's Avatar movie came out, as Kevin also talked about having these floating lands and such). However, as nothing was ever published on this, it is not official in any of the books.

Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Warshield73]

See I've never been able to fully grasp the geography of PF, especially in terms of the black wall in Island at the Edge of the World. Is it a barrier that surrounds the known world or is it just to the west of the island.

As for real that is a good question. Real in this case if I smuggled a space fighter to PF and launched from the Northern kingdom could I land on the moon and orbit the sun. But, in this case real could also mean that it has gravity that effects the tides and wind and air currents and the sun goes through cycles that would effect the climate of the world.

Kevin (in the past) has talked about plans for the other side of the world (he talked about this quite a bit around the time James Cameron's Avatar movie came out, as Kevin also talked about having these floating lands and such). However, as nothing was ever published on this, it is not official in any of the books.

I remember him talking about this at a POH once. Would be cool to see more of the world but I also think PF works as a pocket dimension especially if it is a prison for the old ones.

[Library Ogre]

My headcanon is that Palladium is a normal, spherical world, a little bit larger than Mars (I did measurements once, and I think that's what it works out to), that was the last bastion of the Old Ones. They are (mostly) trapped within it. The Wall is, basically, magical purification. Things that pass through are cleansed of the Old One's taint (and, if they are Old Ones or directly connected to them, destroyed). In several centuries, the last vestige of the Old Ones will be wiped away.

[Braden Campbell]

As of "Bizantium," the Black Wall surrounds the entire continent. It's six or seven hundred miles to the south, east, and west, and more to the north.

[Warshield73]

I don't play Fantasy much and I never GM but my head cannon was always that it was a pocket dimension surrounded by an energy barrier and beyond that barrier is either the sleeping old ones or just nothing.

Not sure if any of the books goes into stars and other celestial bodies that can seen from Palladium, I know astronomy is a skill but not sure what kind of telescopes they have or what can be seen from there.

[Warshield73]

As of "Bizantium," the Black Wall surrounds the entire continent. It's six or seven hundred miles to the south, east, and west, and more to the north.

To the north is it a frozen continent like Antarctica or just a frozen ice cap like what we used to have on earth? Also, is the black wall cutting through the land or is it a large continent with more water on the other side?

Haven't read Bizantium yet but probably need to at some point.

[Braden Campbell]

Its an ice cap... and north of that (south, maybe, it the ice is over the pole?) you encounter the wall again.

There's no escape...

[kiralon]

My Head canon is the palladium world is one of a small group of prime "inner" worlds (others are rifts, nightbane, turtles, n&s (includes bts and is the same world as rifts, just a precursor), robotech and HU). Palladium is the very centremost (like an onion with skins of astral and ethereal planes between the main planes and the elemental planes are thin slices into the planes like a knife cutting through the centre of an onion) as its the most real and is the homeworld of the old ones. There is the outer dark, which houses ultra powerful negative energy monsters (inspired by feist dreadlords and shannara demons) that only have a passing interest in the natural laws like gravity and such, but always have a strong weakness to something. Was faeries and nature, has moved to elementals, and will then move to spirits of light, then back to gods (its a 100,000 year cycle per segment).
The black wall was magic protection from when the old ones were fighting things before the godwars, and the old ones put it up to protect the remaining part of the world from a nasty magical effect, like contagious magical radiation. You can go out but you cant come back in , but this happened millions of years ago, and the planet has recovered some.

[Borast]

Can't remember where...canon book or Rifter...but I remember reading that matter that touches the wall is destroyed.
Given the fact that there is still water on (what's left of) the Palladium world, and the fact that the wall has been there for thousands of years, I'm going to presume it is organic matter that is destroyed.

But, it's years since I last did any reading...

[Warshield73]

Can't remember where...canon book or Rifter...but I remember reading that matter that touches the wall is destroyed.
Given the fact that there is still water on (what's left of) the Palladium world, and the fact that the wall has been there for thousands of years, I'm going to presume it is organic matter that is destroyed.

But, it's years since I last did any reading...

It's canon

The maelstrom is immediately fatal to anything alive that enters it.
Everything it touches is said to be broken down into its elemental
components and those components become part of the maelstrom.
(G.M. Note: To illustrate this, the Game Master may want to have a
small ship or sea monster get sucked into the wall and be disintegrated).
Clouds spit forth lightning as if in protest to being swallowed by the
insidious energy wall. Pulses of flashing red and orange break the
darkness of the wall as if a volcano flared for just a moment and then
was smothered by the unnatural blackness. The air, the ocean waters,
the fish and all that exists below the waves are slowly drawn into the
maelstrom. A primordial blend of air, fire, water and earth seem to
compose the living blackness. The energy wall reaches from the floor
of the ocean and seems to stretch into the cold darkness of space , fifty
miles (80 km) into the sky. Furthennore, it encircles the entire lower
portion of the world; if there is any remnant of the world beyond the
black abyss.

[kiralon]

Gotta love the words said to, to introduce a possibility that it doesn't, and if it does just do that, why not just say does rather than said to