Forums of the Megaverse®

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:55 am**

As per the title, do we need one?

Do we need a second edition of the rules that can be used globally across all the games.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:28 am**

Expand what you said into what you meant. (there is no meat on the bone you asked)

Right now the only PB games that don't have a 2nd ed are (going in PB store order) N&S , DR, NB, CE, Splicers, Mechanoids (and Systems Failure).

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:32 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Expand what you said into what you meant. (there is no meat on the bone you asked)

Right now the only PB games that don't have a 2nd ed are (going in PB store order) N&S, DR, NB, CE, Splicers, Mechanoids (and Systems Failure).

Do we need a second edition of the rules that can be used globally across all the games.

EDIT: Maybe even a split into core rules, and those rules which tend to be flavoursome to certain people / games.
I would also suggest a proper strength table like in M&M and Champions, or even Mythic D6, such that it is split across the different types of strength.

What particular rules would you want adding?

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:11 pm**

Simple answer is the word 'No'.

All the globally active rules are already reprinted in each Core Book of each game.

Calling for a "This supersedes everything" book would just end up a Rifts rulebook that makes the mockery of the other games. We already have too many people that already think that way anyways since Rifts became the cash cow. That you put this question in a RIFTS forum, instead of the 'All Things PalladiumBooks' forum does indicate 'to me' that you think that Rifts is the ""is all be all"" to the PB game.
And you should really set aside Rifts to play the other PB games for a while.

Should PB compile all the Rifts rules into a single book? Yes, that would be nice. But I won't be holding my breath for it. And I will not be buying it.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:21 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Simple answer is the word 'No'.

All the globally active rules are already reprinted in each Core Book of each game.

Calling for a "This supersedes everything" book would just end up a Rifts rulebook that makes the mockery of the other games. We already have too many people that already think that way anyways since Rifts became the cash cow. That you put this question in a RIFTS forum, instead of the 'All Things PalladiumBooks' forum does indicate 'to me' that you think that Rifts is the ""is all be all"" to the PB game.
And you should really set aside Rifts to play the other PB games for a while.

Should PB compile all the Rifts rules into a single book? Yes, that would be nice. But I won't be holding my breath for it. And I will not be buying it.

I put it in this forum as it is part of Rifts dimensions, there is no other place to put it.
And no the rules are not printed in each game, that is false, as different games have different rules. Shouldn't there be one book for how powers work, kind of like M&M. And how damage works as power levels increase?

Then provide some example templates on how to build characters, thus removing all the superfluous classes?

A point buy system would work well in this.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:34 pm**

Rogerd wrote:[

I put it in this forum as it is part of Rifts dimensions, there is no other place to put it.
And no the rules are not printed in each game, that is false, as different games have different rules. Shouldn't there be one book for how powers work, kind of like M&M. And how damage works as power levels increase? I would note that the character building is written much looser than the other games, as if they want the players & GMs to modify it to fill out character details.

Then provide some example templates on how to build characters, thus removing all the superfluous classes?

A point buy system would work well in this.

Reread my post, I said where it should of been asked.

That is because they are different games. And have rules unique to them.

There is are books like that. They are the Heroes Unlimited core and game books.

If you don't like the Character Class way of making chars the use the Heroes Unlimited skills programs ed system.

If you are the GM of the game you can import whatever you want from the other PB games. And/or add elements you wrote up yourself (aka house rules).

Quoting myself from another topic...

To quote the Rifts Conversion Book 1r page 7

"These other worlds are not an official part of the Rifts game setting and are stand-alone games that all use the same basic set of RPG rules."

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:45 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Rogerd wrote:[

I put it in this forum as it is part of Rifts dimensions, there is no other place to put it.
And no the rules are not printed in each game, that is false, as different games have different rules. Shouldn't there be one book for how powers work, kind of like M&M. And how damage works as power levels increase? I would note that the character building is written much looser than the other games, as if they want the players & GMs to modify it to fill out character details.

Then provide some example templates on how to build characters, thus removing all the superfluous classes?

A point buy system would work well in this.

Reread my post, I said where it should of been asked.

That is because they are different games. And have rules unique to them.

There is are books like that. They are the Heroes Unlimited core and game books.

If you don't like the Character Class way of making chars the use the Heroes Unlimited skills programs ed system.

If you are the GM of the game you can import whatever you want from the other PB games. And/or add elements you wrote up yourself (aka house rules).

Quoting myself from another topic...
To quote the Rifts Conversion Book 1r page 7

"These other worlds are not an official part of the Rifts game setting and are stand-alone games that all use the same basic set of RPG rules."

And your statement regarding Heroes is false - yet again. It does not allow full import into Phase World without a lot of issues that Palladium had to publish yet another powers book. Followed by magic books, and yet more magic books. Sheesh.

Not the least of which I made clear that we do not need dozens of books, just one book.

Whereas one book of codified rules and powers would solve all of that. Preferably ones that work

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:25 pm**

A systematic approach to reducing page bloat is kinda antithetical to PB's milieu. There are a couple of reasons why the GURPS approach isn't more prevalent, not least of which being why their sourcebooks are useful even when playing other games. I think that even if it were a desired goal that turning the current oeuvre into a cohesive, well-organized, and broadly applicable scaling ruleset would take substantial out-of-house effort. While I have issues with the epicycles in the Savage Worlds system, not to mention the previous brand manager, their Rifts entry at least takes a stab at doing so. While the instant KS sells the property off something would be in the works, I suspect that will be a matter for his estate.

I've played a couple of games in PB settings using M&M3. They have some idiosyncrasies which don't jive that well with each other, but any open-ended point buy game is predicated on the sort of handshake agreements required.

Here are some first things to consider:

Slapping an after the fact point-buy system on PB games can be fun as well, but replaces shaking with handwaving. I've posted generalities about it a couple of times. This allows a bit of assessment at a glance between different characters, but individual opinions on relative weights of things may vary. As an example, a Mystic's abilities may vastly outshine or be rendered inconsequential in comparison to 1 major and 2 minor superpowers, depending on selections made.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:26 pm**

Rogerd wrote:.

And your statement regarding Heroes is false - yet again. It does not allow full import into Phase World without a lot of issues that Palladium had to publish yet another powers book. Followed by magic books, and yet more magic books. Sheesh.

Not the least of which I made clear that we do not need dozens of books, just one book.

Whereas one book of codified rules and powers would solve all of that. Preferably ones that work

Issues are what GMs get to deal with with things called house rules.

What I said was that HU was one of the DIFFEREN'T GAMES that PB produces.
I didn't say that there wouldn't be any issues.
I haven't see any issues that stand out in the past 20 years, thou others might have a different VP because I was on the Player's side of more games. (Yes, I've had GMs change things mid-game on powers my char had. But that was in a different PB game.)
I did note that you didn't state what issues you had with them. (maybe present the issues to ask question about if others have the same issues with those power and if they did, how did they fix them.)

And it not like just using the ""Rifts rules"" doesn't have up ""issues"". And there is a nice book called 'Rifts Conversion Book 1 revised' that gives GMs some examples of conversions, so they have examples of how they dealt with issues with brining in super abilities.

There is the Rifts Book of Magic....for a magic book.

Rifts is OLD. There are many official answers to questions in Q&As in the Rifters.

Hero powers: if you are looking for a technical why they work....the PB game system is not for you. Same goes with the PB magic system....if you are looking for "Why's" they are not there.

This is an aspect of the PB gaming system and if you don't like it write up your own house rules about them.

I will stick with my own opinion of the need to make all the games follow Rifts Rules is a Non-Starter with me.

sidenote: I am a bit OCD with my words. So I hate it when other posters do not critically READ what I've said. Your last post says to me that you didn't Criiticly Read my post. Since you didn't, I am not going to argue with you about what I said.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:00 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Rogerd wrote:.
And your statement regarding Heroes is false - yet again. It does not allow full import into Phase World without a lot of issues that Palladium had to publish yet another powers book. Followed by magic books, and yet more magic books. Sheesh.

Not the least of which I made clear that we do not need dozens of books, just one book.

Whereas one book of codified rules and powers would solve all of that. Preferably ones that work

Issues are what GMs get to deal with with things called house rules.

What I said was that HU was one of the DIFFEREN'T GAMES that PB produces.
I didn't say that there wouldn't be any issues.
I haven't see any issues that stand out in the past 20 years, thou others might have a different VP because I was on the Player's side of more games. (Yes, I've had GMs change things mid-game on powers my char had. But that was in a different PB game.)
I did note that you didn't state what issues you had with them. (maybe present the issues to ask question about if others have the same issues with those power and if they did, how did they fix them.)

And it not like just using the ""Rifts rules"" doesn't have up ""issues"". And there is a nice book called 'Rifts Conversion Book 1 revised' that gives GMs some examples of conversions, so they have examples of how they dealt with issues with brining in super abilities.

There is the Rifts Book of Magic....for a magic book.

Rifts is OLD. There are many official answers to questions in Q&As in the Rifters.

Hero powers: if you are looking for a technical why they work....the PB game system is not for you. Same goes with the PB magic system....if you are looking for "Why's" they are not there.

This is an aspect of the PB gaming system and if you don't like it write up your own house rules about them.

I will stick with my own opinion of the need to make all the games follow Rifts Rules is a Non-Starter with me.

sidenote: I am a bit OCD with my words. So I hate it when other posters do not critically READ what I've said. Your last post says to me that you didn't Criiticly Read my post. Since you didn't, I am not going to argue with you about what I said.

I did ready your post, very critically and it is full of misdirection by attempting to hide behind you're OCD with words schtick. The fact is that the powers do not work, RAW, or RAI, and that there is not equality between them. And there should be!

Secondly, this is why there needs to be a go-to powers books, where you choose the same powers whether mutant, magic, or cosmically powered. What we do not need is another Champions - which is needlessly complicated maths wise, but something more M&M ish, which is D20. Heck M&M even has an official PF conversion book for instance. The point is that all power need to draw from the same pool, with slight modifiers for origin or source. It is such that at this point in time, I am considering doing Phase World / Rifts conversion to M&M for my own games.

Thirdly, your blithering on about magic book this, and powers book this, shows me you did not read my post where I directly mention there needs to be one source for it all. So this makes your post utter hypocrisy.

Fourthly, there needs to be rule collation, and full updates, for what works around a table for fast paced action, and for what is more suited to slower paced gaming. Plus an attempt, to actually balance player classes. As at this time, it flat does not work - at all. Play can be slow, and even grind to a halt due to this, and rule contradiction between powers. One book of powers, removes this utterly.

Curbludgeon wrote:A systematic approach to reducing page bloat is kinda antithetical to PB's milieu. There are a couple of reasons why the GURPS approach isn't more prevalent, not least of which being why their sourcebooks are useful even when playing other games. I think that even if it were a desired goal that turning the current oeuvre into a cohesive, well-organized, and broadly applicable scaling ruleset would take substantial out-of-house effort. While I have issues with the epicycles in the Savage Worlds system, not to mention the previous brand manager, their Rifts entry at least takes a stab at doing so. While the instant KS sells the property off something would be in the works, I suspect that will be a matter for his estate.

I've played a couple of games in PB settings using M&M3. They have some idiosyncrasies which don't jive that well with each other, but any open-ended point buy game is predicated on the sort of handshake agreements required.

Here are some first things to consider:
Skills like Expertise, Vehicles, and especially Technology need to be divided into subskills such that a character must necessarily specialize in at least the top few ranks
One must decide which Effects are available via Equipment versus those that require a Device
Does something akin to P.P.E./I.S.P. get implemented? This is in likely conjunction with what limits are placed on D/AE. As a related matter, effects with intentionally deflated cost such as certain forms of Movement warrant attention
As an aesthetic matter, PS scaling in PB is so much slower and with a lower effective cap than in M&M that character sheets can look a mite puny. I don't think there's a great argument, but there's one to be made for using 2e Strength charts.

Slapping an after the fact point-buy system on PB games can be fun as well, but replaces shaking with handwaving. I've posted generalities about it a couple of times. This allows a bit of assessment at a glance between different characters, but individual opinions on relative weights of things may vary. As an example, a Mystic's abilities may vastly outshine or be rendered inconsequential in comparison to 1 major and 2 minor superpowers, depending on selections made.

Huzzah, a good answer!

Well done and kudos in your well thought out reply.

Yeah SW does a good job of taking things in the right direction, a more cohesive whole such that everyone picks from the same powers just that there are normal and higher powered versions - which is fine. If it was up to me, it isn't, I would allow other companies such as Cortex, M&M, and others, that can cope with the power level publish their own official conversions. Thus you bring in other gamers, from other systems into the fold. So while they may not like the PB in-house system, they could easily use their own and would likely buy PB books just for the extra setting fluff. Thus rejuvenating the product, with fresh thoughts and players.

The good thing about point buy, is that it would let you play a Monk from Fantasy with a Rifts Juicer, or even Glitterboy - but because of the point buy they would even out and no one would outshine the other.

Your comment about skill specialisation, is certainly something I agree with and something I have been thinking about of late after reading some Modern: Age. For me, I would be inclined, especially, in a modern setting, is for someone like a Heroic SpecOps to have all military skills (he has the program), but as you say would specialise in various things - which in a point buy would be denoted by an extra cost, which would also provide extra bonuses when using that particular skill.

I agree some classes vastly outshine others, from a game mechanic standpoint that is not even funny. And this is why I kind of think that some kind of Palladium Books Second is needed to address, and resolve all of this. As it puts a lot on the shoulders of an inexperienced GM - who is game mechanically inept, but can weave a kickass story and game session together. This lack of game balance can hinder that - which is a very serious problem.

While someone who is mechanically brilliant, can make game sessions a chore as they run soooo slowly. The game is about having fun, and essentially the rules need to be easy and allow quick easy decisions, and for the game to flow. Don't get me wrong, M&M does have it's own innate flaws - it just does, as a lot of characters can be broken right out of the box, so to speak, if you have a min-maxer in your midst.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:51 am**

Rogerd wrote:I did ready your post, very critically and it is full of misdirection by attempting to hide behind you're OCD with words schtick. The fact is that the powers do not work, RAW, or RAI, and that there is not equality between them. And there should be!

Secondly, this is why there needs to be a go-to powers books, where you choose the same powers whether mutant, magic, or cosmically powered. What we do not need is another Champions - which is needlessly complicated maths wise, but something more M&M ish, which is D20. Heck M&M even has an official PF conversion book for instance. The point is that all power need to draw from the same pool, with slight modifiers for origin or source. It is such that at this point in time, I am considering doing Phase World / Rifts conversion to M&M for my own games.

Thirdly, your blithering on about magic book this, and powers book this, shows me you did not read my post where I directly mention there needs to be one source for it all. So this makes your post utter hypocrisy.

Fourthly, there needs to be rule collation, and full updates, for what works around a table for fast paced action, and for what is more suited to slower paced gaming. Plus an attempt, to actually balance player classes. As at this time, it flat does not work - at all. Play can be slow, and even grind to a halt due to this, and rule contradiction between powers. One book of powers, removes this utterly.

The OCD part is I read things critically all the time (minus the 'being human' times) and I write what I MEAN w/o secondary meanings. That you are misreading me is not on me.

#2 That you are disappointed with the lack of RIFTs conversions in the HU game's is not a problem. That is just you not liking it.

#3 I did read your post and you were B'ing about how the books didn't explain why the powers worked.
If you asking how the stats for the powers works then you didn't do your reading from the HU2 core book where it explains how to do the math around the powers stats. This is another ON YOU, for not taking the time to read the books. It's not like where the they explain them is hidden somewhere obscure. They are right there in the front of the super abilities listing in the HU Core book.

#4 As I stated before, No They don't NEED to be consolidated in one book. Each GAME has its own core book that covers what is needed for That Game.
For one thing the resulting book would be twice as thick as the Pathfinder Core book and still not cover everything.

What I am seeing is that the PB games are not matching up to Your Preconceptions that all the different PB games are one game, when they are all separate games

Goodbye

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:13 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Rogerd wrote:I did ready your post, very critically and it is full of misdirection by attempting to hide behind you're OCD with words schtick. The fact is that the powers do not work, RAW, or RAI, and that there is not equality between them. And there should be!

Secondly, this is why there needs to be a go-to powers books, where you choose the same powers whether mutant, magic, or cosmically powered. What we do not need is another Champions - which is needlessly complicated maths wise, but something more M&M ish, which is D20. Heck M&M even has an official PF conversion book for instance. The point is that all power need to draw from the same pool, with slight modifiers for origin or source. It is such that at this point in time, I am considering doing Phase World / Rifts conversion to M&M for my own games.

Thirdly, your blithering on about magic book this, and powers book this, shows me you did not read my post where I directly mention there needs to be one source for it all. So this makes your post utter hypocrisy.

Fourthly, there needs to be rule collation, and full updates, for what works around a table for fast paced action, and for what is more suited to slower paced gaming. Plus an attempt, to actually balance player classes. As at this time, it flat does not work - at all. Play can be slow, and even grind to a halt due to this, and rule contradiction between powers. One book of powers, removes this utterly.

The OCD part is I read things critically all the time (minus the 'being human' times) and I write what I MEAN w/o secondary meanings. That you are misreading me is not on me.

#2 That you are disappointed with the lack of RIFTs conversions in the HU game's is not a problem. That is just you not liking it.

#3 I did read your post and you were B'ing about how the books didn't explain why the powers worked.
If you asking how the stats for the powers works then you didn't do your reading from the HU2 core book where it explains how to do the math around the powers stats. This is another ON YOU, for not taking the time to read the books. It's not like where the they explain them is hidden somewhere obscure. They are right there in the front of the super abilities listing in the HU Core book.

#4 As I stated before, No They don't NEED to be consolidated in one book. Each GAME has its own core book that covers what is needed for That Game.
For one thing the resulting book would be twice as thick as the Pathfinder Core book and still not cover everything.

What I am seeing is that the PB games are not matching up to Your Preconceptions that all the different PB games are one game, when they are all separate games

Goodbye

User warned for violating forums rules by directly insulting another user. - NMI

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:49 pm**

Can we stick to a debating the merits of change vs the merits of tradition without the name calling? I'm rather tired of seeing threads devolve to the point where a moderator has to issue warnings and lock the thread. As I am not a mod, you can consider this a gentle reminder before the actual mods bring disciplinary action.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:25 pm**

The problem that I've been saying is that what you want, isn't "Inovation". It is dumbing down to the lowest quality level.

As I said before, making all the games rules the same would just have PB make them all rifts rules. Which is dumbing things down because of the stupid changes they made (my opinion of the changes) to make the game "more accessible".

Your opinion that things don't work is that. Your Opinion. The PB Games are not GURPS, with a different supplement book for everything. It is seperate games that GMs can import stuff fairly easily between the games.

If you want GURPS. Then go play GURPS.
All you are doing right not is bringing strife into this house, by 817ch1ng about how the PB games don't meet your preconceptions of how a gaming system should be organized.

You have not brought up any examples of 'which super abilities have issues' in your opinion. You have only said that you have issues with some.

Be a FN adult and ask about the issues you have with which super abilities. If you are just going to complain that you don't like how things are in the PB games people will put you on ignore and you won't get answer to your question except from the people you haven't pissed off with your attitude.

Good bye

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:38 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The problem that I've been saying is that what you want, isn't "Inovation". It is dumbing down to the lowest quality level.

As I said before, making all the games rules the same would just have PB make them all rifts rules. Which is dumbing things down because of the stupid changes they made (my opinion of the changes) to make the game "more accessible".

Your opinion that things don't work is that. Your Opinion. The PB Games are not GURPS, with a different supplement book for everything. It is seperate games that GMs can import stuff fairly easily between the games.

If you want GURPS. Then go play GURPS.
All you are doing right not is bringing strife into this house, by 817ch1ng about how the PB games don't meet your preconceptions of how a gaming system should be organized.

You have not brought up any examples of 'which super abilities have issues' in your opinion. You have only said that you have issues with some.

Be a FN adult and ask about the issues you have with which super abilities. If you are just going to complain that you don't like how things are in the PB games people will put you on ignore and you won't get answer to your question except from the people you haven't pissed off with your attitude.

Good bye

Nope totally false and shows you cannot read basic English.

I said there should be one book of powers which everyone should draw from, and deliberaltely used M&M, Mythic D6, and others as an examples, and mentioned that it should include magic, superpowers, psychic abilities. I also said that these all had strength tables. I also mentioned about new rules to enable equalising issues with classes, such that it would enable a Fantasy anf Rifts character to adventure together - which new rules should empower.

Essentially Palladium have not issed any serious new rules in decades, during which DnD, PF, Shadowrun to name but a few have issues multiple versions, some good, some bad. But all have issued fresh rules. Palladium is stuck in the past, hidebound, like a good many of its fans. Needing to get into modern age, and accept that new editions are called for.

Newer, fresher rules are called for.

To get the younger generation interested. And this requires innovation, and improvement. Take what they have done so far, learn from previous mistakes and surge ahead.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:47 am**

Actually, the biggest reason other companies write new versions of their rules has little to do with the viability of the rules themselves, and more to do with marketing and cashflow. If they release a new core rules set every 5-10 years, the existing fans must shell out money to buy the new books to be compatible with new supplements. It's not that the rules needed a fresher take, but rather that the company needed to meet their financial bottom line.
The reason PB fans are generally happy to make do with the current system is that we have hundreds of books that we have invested thousands of dollars to acquire and don't want to see all that material rendered obsolete.
Many of us left games like D&D because we were tired of having to replace our entire library every few years. It sucks when you scrimp and save to finally afford the books you want, only to see them rendered obsolete shortly thereafter and have to start the process all over again.
That said, I am all in favor of a unified Megaverse System Corebook that smooths out the issues of moving from one game to another, but not at the expense of negating what already exists. Instead, I'd like to see the concept employed in the Rifts Conversion series expanded and adapted so that it unifies the Megaverse without requiring fans to start from scratch buying new books to play this game.
There are options between 'leave it broken' and 'reinvent the wheel just because it's been a while.'

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:23 am**

Father Goose wrote:Actually, the biggest reason other companies write new versions of their rules has little to do with the viability of the rules themselves, and more to do with marketing and cashflow. If they release a new core rules set every 5-10 years, the existing fans must shell out money to buy the new books to be compatible with new supplements. It's not that the rules needed a fresher take, but rather that the company needed to meet their financial bottom line.

The reason PB fans are generally happy to make do with the current system is that we have hundreds of books that we have invested thousands of dollars to acquire and don't want to see all that material rendered obsolete. Many of us left games like D&D because we were tired of having to replace our entire library every few years. It sucks when you scrimp and save to finally afford the books you want, only to see them rendered obsolete shortly thereafter and have to start the process all over again.

I just gave them more by way of examples, though to be fair, DnD 5e is pretty hot to trot at the moment with a load of new settings that have been recently released, or coming out (in KS atm) that would be great if used as Palladium setting too. I mean they have some seriously good settings, same too for Magic the Gathering - I mean look at Nicol Bolas, the planeswalking dragon as a perfect example of this. He would fit right in!

Father Goose wrote:That said, I am all in favor of a unified Megaverse System Corebook that smooths out the issues of moving from one game to another, but not at the expense of negating what already exists. Instead, I'd like to see the concept employed in the Rifts Conversion series expanded and adapted so that it unifies the Megaverse without requiring fans to start from scratch buying new books to play this game. There are options between 'leave it broken' and 'reinvent the wheel just because it's been a while.'

Yeah I think we're on the same page here - and don't get wrong the fluff and settings for Palladium are just top notch, they really are, and can stay as they are - no change required. Just 'dem rulez!

I mean I love Nightbane, Heroes Unlimited, Phase World, Fantasy. And to me, with a good 2e you would get the tools to combine with little effort, and anything that is MDC is clearly a higher power level - kind of like comparing MCU tv to MCU films really. One is SDC, the other MDC.

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:31 am**

Rogerd wrote:
Nope totally false and shows you cannot read basic English.

I said there should be one book of powers which everyone should draw from, and deliberately used M&M, Mythic D6, and others as an examples, and mentioned that it should include magic, superpowers, psychic abilities. I also said that these all had strength tables. I also mentioned about new rules to enable equalising issues with classes, such that it would enable a Fantasy anf Rifts character to adventure together - which new rules should empower.

Essentially Palladium have not issed any serious new rules in decades, during which DnD, PF, Shadowrun to name but a few have issues multiple versions, some good, some bad. But all have issued fresh rules. Palladium is stuck in the past, hidebound, like a good many of its fans. Needing to get into modern age, and accept that new editions are called for.

Newer, fresher rules are called for.

To get the younger generation interested. And this requires innovation, and improvement. Take what they have done so far, learn from previous mistakes and surge ahead.

Since I know how GURPS is organized and What you are describing is how GUPRS is organized (and you described how GURPS is organized in this last post also.) I am 99.9999% sure confident I read you correctly. That you mention of games I've never heard of has no bearing on that you described how GUPRS; as it was organized when I looked into it; is organized. It is you that is failing to make connections in what I am saying.

Just because you have to work at bringing elements from the other PB games to rifts does not make you right. It just means that you ether are 'just 817ch1ng to 817ch" or you fail to understand that not all games have to be "The Same" as what YOU WHANT. In fact that the world where everything is the same would be Frelling BOOOOOORRRRRING. But I think you are just being the former or can't understand how other people don't think just like you.

Besides all the Rifters have their RUE core book to look to to as the canon source. That does not mean you should seek to Ruin the other PB games just because you are a little inconvenienced because you want/desire to being a foreign element into the Rifts game.

What I see it you pissing on the way things are because you are inconvenienced by the differnt games are different. It is sort of how a someone will 817ch and moan cause he has to work at bringing something from Adv. D&D into 5th ed or Pathfinder.

Have you ever thought that the PB system rules hasn't changed because there are so few issues with them? Of that the questions the have come up are answered in official Q&A articles and Errata?
Why do they do this.....so they can produce new content sell more books instead of re-hashing the same old stuff with slightly different rules.

I for one would rather have New Content then 'just another rules change to make people buy the same books again.' Thou with some of the older rifts books (JU comes to mind) there are things in them that make them prime candidates for a revised edition.

The thing I wish they did was to make more new content for their other games.

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:30 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Since I know how GURPS is organized and What you are describing is how GUPRS is organized (and you described how GURPS is organized in this last post also.) I am 99.9999% sure confident I read you correctly. That you mention of games I've never heard of has no bearing on that you described how GUPRS; as it was organized when I looked into it; is organized. It is you that is failing to make connections in what I am saying.

The fact that mentioned games that are not Gurps, does have total bearing on my point. It is your total lack of reading comprehension that is the problem. Read my lips numbbutz - NOT GURPS. I think you need to change you name from Drew Kitty to Dumb Kitty.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Just because you have to work at bringing elements from the other PB games to rifts does not make you right.

Yeah it does make me right, and you CLEARLY WRONG. Conversions from another system into something else, does take time, but within system it should require none. And let's look at Heroes Unlimited. It required another book, Skraypers, to be modified to fit within MDC structure. Then it required another magic book to convert normal magic into MDC. All this proves my entire point, and makes me more, and more right I;m afraid - and you utterly wrong - like always. If there had been one powers book, this would have been easily solved. The one book could be used for magic, psionics, cosmic power, super powers.

Could even have had one equipment book, dealing with different weapons etc. Then concentrate on setting specific stuff in each book instead of reprinting the entire rules in each book, and just make reference to it - just like Savage Worlds does.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Have you ever thought that the PB system rules hasn't changed because there are so few issues with them? Of that the questions the have come up are answered in official Q&A articles and Errata?

This is the dumbest fu**ing thing I have EVER heard - and yeah you'er wrong as pretty much everyone else on the internet agrees with me. We all think Palladium rules are terrible - but the fluff and settings are amazing. Now I understand you may need counselling at hearing this, but it is true. So in order to make it playable, and get a wider audience, things need to change.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Besides all the Rifters have their RUE core book to look to to as the canon source. That does not mean you should seek to Ruin the other PB games just because you are a little inconvenienced because you want/desire to being a foreign element into the Rifts game. What I see it you pissing on the way things are because you are inconvenienced by the differnt games are different. It is sort of how a someone will 817ch and moan cause he has to work at bringing something from Adv. D&D into 5th ed or Pathfinder.

In fact you're mentality, and attitude is everything wrong with Palladium fans quite frankly. If things do not change within 10-15 years, PB is gone, just like Unisystem.

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:58 am**

Rogerd wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Since I know how GURPS is organized and What you are describing is how GUPRS is organized (and you described how GURPS is organized in this last post also.) I am 99.9999% sure confident I read you correctly. That you mention of games I've never heard of has no bearing on that you described how GUPRS; as it was organized when I looked into it; is organized. It is you that is failing to make connections in what I am saying.

The fact that mentioned games that are not Gurps, does have total bearing on my point. It is your total lack of reading comprehension that is the problem. Read my lips numbbutz - NOT GURPS. I think you need to change you name from Drew Kitty to Dumb Kitty.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Just because you have to work at bringing elements from the other PB games to rifts does not make you right.

Yeah it does make me right, and you CLEARLY WRONG. Conversions from another system into something else, does take time, but within system it should require none. And let's look at Heroes Unlimited. It required another book, Skraypers, to be modified to fit within MDC structure. Then it required another magic book to convert normal magic into MDC. All this proves my entire point, and makes me more, and more right I;m afraid - and you utterly wrong - like always. If there had been one powers book, this would have been easily solved. The one book could be used for magic, psionics, cosmic power, super powers.

Could even have had one equipment book, dealing with different weapons etc. Then concentrate on setting specific stuff in each book instead of reprinting the entire rules in each book, and just make reference to it - just like Savage Worlds does.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Have you ever thought that the PB system rules hasn't changed because there are so few issues with them? Of that the questions the have come up are answered in official Q&A articles and Errata?

This is the dumbest fu**ing thing I have EVER heard - and yeah you'er wrong as pretty much everyone else on the internet agrees with me. We all think Palladium rules are terrible - but the fluff and settings are amazing. Now I understand you may need counselling at hearing this, but it is true. So in order to make it playable, and get a wider audience, things need to change.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Besides all the Rifters have their RUE core book to look to to as the canon source. That does not mean you should seek to Ruin the other PB games just because you are a little inconvenienced because you want/desire to being a foreign element into the Rifts game. What I see it you pissing on the way things are because you are inconvenienced by the differnt games are different. It is sort of how a someone will 817ch and moan cause he has to work at bringing something from Adv. D&D into 5th ed or Pathfinder.

In fact you're mentality, and attitude is everything wrong with Palladium fans quite frankly. If things do not change within 10-15 years, PB is gone, just like Unisystem.

I wish there was love or like reactions for this post.....

Dude PM me, we should chat....

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:56 am**

jaymz wrote:I wish there was love or like reactions for this post.....

Dude PM me, we should chat....

PM sent

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:00 pm**

Palladium markets itself as a megaversal system.
That every system can interact with every other system.

"Conversions" As mentioned above, are usually held for trying to use something 'Out of system' with a system you're using. Converting D&D to Palladium rules, or Converting WoD to Palladium rules.

NOT For Using HU with N&SS, or BTS with Rifts.

If Palladium IS a megaversal system then it should be one system. Not 5 or 6 similar systems that can, with effort be converted, akin to taking something from Shadowrun and making it Palladium.

As to the rules themselves. Drew. Come on dude. I don't even know how you typed that last bit with a straight face. "Have you ever thought that the PB system rules hasn't changed because there are so few issues with them? Of that the questions the have come up are answered in official Q&A articles and Errata?" LOL I needed a laugh to wake up in the morning.
Palladium rules have many many many many issues.
Not only that, but you know that, as you've been on these forums for years and have been witness to 1000s of pages of people fighting over those problems. I've seen you there. You KNOW better. To even put that forth as a hypothetical totally invalidates any other part of this debate you might wish to enter into.
Heck Drew. You know Kevin doesn't even use the rules.
The creator of the system itself doesn't even use them.
Let that sink in.

Yes Palladium needs a "Core book"

The rules we do have are spread, quite literally over 20 or more books. They often contradict themselves. They do need revision, clarification and unification.

In spite of what's been said above, yes other systems put out new versions of the games to REVISE them. To UPDATE Them. Palladium is one of the only companies still technically producing books, that has NOT revised their system since the 80s. It shows. Horribly. It also shows on pallaidum's loss of prominence since the 90s. D&D doesn't just put out a new rule set to 'make money" (Though as a business that's no doubt PART of it) They do so to stay relivent and improve the game. And again in spite of what's posted above it's not every few years like some would imply. It's usually what every 8 to 10 years? Once a DECADE for D&D.
1974
1989
2000
2008
2014

So it's not every 5-10 years. It's 15 years 11 years, 8 years and then 6. For a literal average of a decade between editions. (Yeah math!) and the change from 4th to 5th came through when 4th wasn't really liked much at all and people went to Pathfinder and 'back' to 3.5 instead of playing 4. So that one was quicker, but necessitated by player demand more than anything, and still even with that one's quick turn around the average still comes out at a decade)

Yes there are some (Myself included) that don't go in and buy every book every time. But here's another hit. Most game systems aren't marketed to people their 4th decade playing the game. A new revision once per decade is about what the market will bare and brings in new players and new blood. Something Palladium has refused to do. They're still using the same format they used i8n 1980. Same paper. Same black and white. Same lack of innovation at all.

So to answer the OP,

Yes the entire Palladium system needs a revision. Yes we need a consolidation of the rules. Yes we need one book to say "This is how it works. Yes we know we told you 4 ways in three books previously but this is the canon answer" Yes we need the rules in ONE book.

Now one thing I disagree with is "All the super powers/etc" in one book. From a business standpoint that's going to hurt your sales.

You create a core book. "Palladium Core Rules" That you can use to play ANY system And then you issue supplements to handle those sorts of things. I mean I have HU. VU and PU 1-3. To say you take all that and put it in the core book would cut out sales for 5 books from the roster. Not good for a business. BUT, you can sell HU as the "Super hero Game" and then have one bigass book of powers that combines the super POWERS from HU, VU and PU1-3.

But over all I agree the Palladium system is in dramatic need of an update and consolidation.

ALLLL That said.

It's not going to happen. As much as we might want it.

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:27 pm**

The 'core rules' are already presented within the 'Core Books' of each PB game.

It is one system. It is just there a tweaks in each game to make the rules work for that game genre and types of gamers.

Like the modern WP rules. The original MWP rules work real well in the Heroes Genre, and for playing Heroic games, and for Players/GMs.
Even so, the more RW MWP rules presented in RUE cater to those games who want the MWP rules to be more real world like.
This variance gives the circle of gamers canon options about their own games if they so chose.

Also, the amount of effort importing rules from one PB game to another is minimal to none. (Unless the GM has done wholesale modifications to the rules for their games.) And well within easy efforts of 6th grade gamers.

If you pull the diversity out if the gene pool you weaken the species.

What you are proposing to to shrink the fanbase by driving out those who HATE!! the Rifts canon rules set. Cause there are those who will just stop buying PB gamebooks if your idea is implemented and the Rifts canon is used as the basis of such ""core book".

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:55 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote: The 'core rules' are already presented within the 'Core Books' of each PB game.

But they're not the same. Not totally. Thus they're not 'core rules'. They're rulesets that are supposed to intermesh effortlessly but don't. Thus... No. You've got different renderings and readings of a ruleset with many differences.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:It is one system. It is just there a tweaks in each game to make the rules work for that game genre and types of gamers.

I.E. Conversions. Other wise you wouldn't need.... wait for it..... THE CONVERSION BOOK YOU MENTIONED.

Again, conversions should be for "D&D to Shadowrun" or "Changeling the Dreaming to Star Trek" not "HU to N&SS" You shouldn't have to have a conversion document with in 'one' system. If you need to convert with in one system... it's not ... one system. It's two (or more) systems that need conversion to work.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Like the modern WP rules. The original MWP rules work real well in the Heroes Genre, and for playing Heroic games, and for Players/GMs.
Even so, the more RW MWP rules presented in RUE cater to those games who want the MWP rules to be more real world like.
This variance gives the circle of gamers canon options about their own games if they so chose.

It gives totally different rulesets. Thus not one system. You're actually proving the point you're trying to deny. You're trying to sell it as a feature that there's many totally incompatible and discongruent rules, and frankly not too many people are stupid enough to buy that. And it's insulting that you'd try.

You're -literally- citing far different rulesets with in 'one game' and trying to act like it's a good thing. lol Nice try, but no. Don't pee on our legs and tell us it's raining.

Again if you have to CONVERT RULES, it's not one system and that sows confusion.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Also, the amount of effort importing rules from one PB game to another is minimal to none. (Unless the GM has done wholesale modifications to the rules for their games.) And well within easy efforts of 6th grade gamers.

It's palladium. By and large it's aimed at 6th grade gamers.
But that's not the point.

Of course we can do the work Drew. We've been doing it for Decades.

Why should we have to?

If it's one system why doesn't the people that produce it.... do their own work?

How come we have to look through 20 books for rules?

We're paying THEM money to do this. Not to take it on our selves.

Of course we "Can" Convert stuff as needed. But that's time we're not playing the game.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

If you pull the diversity out if the gene pool you weaken the species.

A RULESET For a game system doesn't need diversity with in itself. You have diversity when you look at Palladium vs D20, or palladium vs WoD, or Palladium vs Shadowrun. You don't purposefully compeat with yourself unless you're an idiot. You don't make it harder for your players to cross system with in your OWN GAME. You make it easier so you sell more books and open new worlds. If I know how to play rifts and those rules are 100% the same as HU I might play HU, before I pick up Mutants and Masterminds. As I don't need to learn a new system.

Again you're trying to sell a failing as a perk. We're not that stupid.

You also have diversity in SETTING... but having a single ruleset makes it easier to ebrace the setting diversity.

And everyone agrees that Palladium excells at settings. Not rules. Tryngh to be like 'Oh the differences of rules with in one system are a good thing!" is silly on the face of it. It confuses the issues, makes it harder for people to learn, and leads to conflict. As evidenced by decades of fighting on these forums.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
What you are proposing to to shrink the fanbase by driving out those who HATE!! the Rifts canon rules set. Cause there are those who will just stop buying PB gamebooks if your idea is implemented and the Rifts canon is used as the basis of such ""core book".

Not at all.

You're one person.

More over noone's said "RIFTS OVER EVERYTHING" other than you. That's a strawman you're attacking.

More over than THAT, many other game systems do this and make mad bank. Much more than Palladium makes.

For the people like yourself that are hide bound and dislike the concept there's many more that have been calling for it for years... or decades. The other systems like White wolf and D&D are doing just fine.

Palladium's down to a hand full of people, with lay offs and begging for money on the Regular.

How many books has Palladium put out this year? We're almost 11 months in. How many books?

How many of THOSE were 100% new content and not just cut and paste jobs with a bit of polish to resell?

You're seriously trying to go "This is BETTER" as Palladium slowly bleeds todeath, largely based on the abject refusal to innovate or even 'keep up with the jonses' in the industry it's in. The lack of revision and innovation are a stranglehold.

Palladium's the company still producing the horse buggy, when everyone else is selling sports cars with electronic interfaces.

Yeah, the Amish still used the buggies, but you're not going to remain a leader in the vehicle industry refusing to keep up with the times.

Same for the RPG industry. If you refuse to change anything from the late 80s or early 90s...a nd it's 2020..... you might wonder if THAT is the reason your company is dying.

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:31 pm**

Updating books is fine. It is the " Make it One Game" idea isn't flying. That is what the OP's ideas will lead to. FT

'keep up with the Joneses" should not be "doing what the Joneses are doing just because the Joneses are doing it". Doing that will just have the PB games look just like the other games.

That is what I like about the PB games, things do get fixed, whiles still being able to used the older books.The only three books I have that characters made from them would be difficult to play under the current rules are the PF1 core book and HU1r core book and the Recon Books. Every other books can be crossed over and played in the other games without change.
(Yes, if you are playing race that is SN then things start to get complicated, but you signed up from that when you chose/allowed a complicated character race.)

Really, if you can play one PB game you can play all of them. Even if there are minor variations in each. It is those minor variations that the OP is complaining about. And are not up to the level of something to complain about if you are mildly competent gamer.

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:33 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Updating books is fine. It is the " Make it One Game" idea isn't flying. That is what the OP's ideas will lead to. FT

It is one game system. This has been explained by both of us now. In which there are different settings with slight nuances - and that is fine. But is most definitively one system.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Really, if you can play one PB game you can play all of them. Even if there are minor variations in each. It is those minor variations that the OP is complaining about. And are not up to the level of something to complain about if you are mildly competent gamer.

That is rubbish, as you have already agreed that you need a conversion book. Which under one system, is not required. And as I have already shown HU powers and PF magic needed extra books to use with MDC systems. Rules are all over the place, as already explained, so no it is about Palladium doing the work - it is their job after all, not ours, to make it make it usable across settings.

And that is done with one central set of rules. People do not want to buy a gazillion books to get complete rules, or to have two or three books with conflicting rules. This should not happen. And has recently been explained Palladium is dying as both a product, and as a brand. And it is your hidebound mentality, that is a problem.

Palladium and its players like you need to change in order for it to survive. Simple as that really.

Relevant: https://www.spritesanddice.com/reviews/ ... on-review/
Relevant too: https://www.enworld.org/threads/palladi ... pgs.54106/

Pathfinder innovated into a 2e, why rules bloat, and over complication.

Now the comments regarding Palladium's rules are not isolated, they are internet wide, whether prg.net, rpgpub.com, as you can see Enworld. We sll say the same thing - we want to play Palladium, we really do but for the most part cannot be bothered with doing conversions into another workable system. End result we don't and Palladium loses out - every.single.time.

Why?

We don't buy their stuff.
We're fed up.

How long have i been asking for Garden of the Gods in pdf in Fantasy? Months! Most people agree that Dragons and Gods was an amazing book. So naturally I want the follow up one too. Can i get it. Nope.

Not good!

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:10 pm**

"And are not up to the level of something to complain about if you are mildly competent gamer."

When one cannot actually address the complaint properly, or in this case competently, one should not backhandedly insult the complainant....

You are in the minority in your various stances, and that minority is precisely why Palladium is mired where it is.

Bravo. You've stagnated a company for the last 20 years into irrelevance among its peers.

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:26 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote: Updating books is fine. It is the " Make it One Game" idea isn't flying. That is what the OP's ideas will lead to. FT

No. You're misrepresenting. No one is saying 'Make it one GAME" They're saying one game system should have ---one system---. You can play multiple games under one system.
Look at White wolf. They have Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling, Demon, etc. All under one overall system. Each game's rules incorperate that system. If there are changes (A vampire's blood pool, a werewolf's rage, a changeling's glamour) Those -individual- rules are in that system's perview.

Palladium heralds itself as having a universal system like the one mentioned above, but infact does not.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

'keep up with the Joneses" should not be "doing what the Joneses are doing just because the Joneses are doing it". Doing that will just have the PB games look just like the other games

The other games are relevant and have companies that aren't scraping the bottom of the barrel. Other games have shelf space in gaming stores. Other games have distributors that will carry them. Other games produce more than 2 or 3 books a year. Other games can charge more (Uggg) Because they give more.

If your competition is innovating and changing and the INDUSTRY STANDARD Has advanced, refusing to maintain even the minimal level of standard, leaves you stranded in the past. Both in product.... and PROFIT.

Palladium isn't a shoe maker that makes hand made shoes that sell for Tens of thousands of dollars each pair, refusing to use Nike's mass production plan.

They're a RPG book company that hasn't advanced it's product in 30 years. While other RPG Book companies have. So Palladium is producing soft bound books on low quality paper, black and white print, in 2 column format. With quarter, half or full page black and white art dropped in. Same as they did in 1980. The rest of the industry has advanced 30 years.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
That is what I like about the PB games, things do get fixed,

What's been fixed?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:whiles still being able to used the older books.The only three books I have that characters made from them would be difficult to play under the current rules are the PF1 core book and HU1r core book and the Recon Books. Every other books can be crossed over and played in the other games without change.

Untrue. N&SS leaps immediately to mind. That's with out even digging deep.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
(Yes, if you are playing race that is SN then things start to get complicated, but you signed up from that when you chose/allowed a complicated character race.)

Your defense for rules not working is "You signed on for that if you don't make someting vanilla/white bread" Isn't going to be a defense in RPGs where everyone wants to be something coo;/special. ESPECIALLY in palladium where the flag ship is Rifts.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Really, if you can play one PB game you can play all of them.

Really, this can be said about any RPG, the difference is the level of conversion and work you have to put into it. If you can play palladium you CAN play D&D, but they're different games.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote: Even if there are minor variations in each. It is those minor variations that the OP is complaining about. And are not up to the level of something to complain about if you are mildly competent gamer.

So 1) You're insulting everyone that doesn't agree with you. Bad form.
2) You're wrong. The variations are the point. if you have a universal system, you don't have the variations you're talking about. Nor do you have to look through 20 books and varyaing systems to find answers for things. HU has no rules for perception. TMNT has no rules for how far you jump. Both things that happen, and have happened in every single RPG game... pretty much ever. And again that's just two instances off the top of my head. (Infact to find jump rules you have to use rifts,a nd even THEN only after a certain number of reprintings, and perception wasn't added to the game lines for what the first two decades of production? More?)

the OP isn't saying make everything Rifts. he's pointing out the failings in how things have been halfassed published adhoc over the DECADES needing to be cleaned up.

If it's supposed to be a megaversal SYSTEM then the SYSTEM should match. The GAMES can have variation.

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:19 pm**

PB already has one system. As the RCB1/RCB1r says. As you pointed out that they say this. you can't have it PB doesn't have one system in one post and they don't in another. So who is misrepresenting what?

--------
Different genres need their own tweaks so the games in the systems have minor differences that are well within people's abilities to allow this differences, exclude those differences...or make what changes they see fit for their games. Will they be the same as what you would do....most likely not. But it will be people not being sheep or lemmings while using their own brains to figure things out for themselves. And the gaming society will be better for it.
------------
What Fixed? they fixe things with rules in new books and answering Errata questions in the rifters and some new books. They did fix a lot of things when they went from 1st to 2nd printing of RUE. There is a list of things they did on the cutting room floor. Every Gamebook has something new, something different. (aside: even if I wish the writers wouldn't just change things without thinking of the unintended consequences in how they react with rules the rest of the books.
----------
I can make up a N&S char and play it without much trouble in most of the games. If you are thinking about how much "conversions" the Chi powers would need to play in Rifts....Rifter 3 has a conversion text already written out. While it is not "official" it is still there to use.

Again...yes it could use an update. But will that update change the character of the game to just be a Rift's clone but just with Agents and Spies? In my opinion this is what would happen because of nothing but the economics of time that could be applied to such update PB would change the Chi abilileties and powers to Psionics powers and abilities so it would fit the Rifts preconceptions of most of their players. Just look at what happened with RC1&2. Or even the RJ woldbook where they got changed to PPE based powers.
Then there was the dumbing down of the N&S MAFs in RC2. no choice whatsoever in which MA powers & abilities that they gave.
-------
Whating vanilla or white bread gaming systems is wanting vanilla or white bread. yawn yawn yawn.
---------
Yes, in general if you can play one PB game you can play all of them. All the core concepts and core rules are the same. It is just the individual game tweaks that are being complained about here.

-----------------

----------------
I didn't say the games had identical rules. That is what You are Saying You are advocating. That is what the OP said he wants.
What I said; And What the RCB1/RCB1r says; that they are different games using the same system. That they are different games AUTOMATICLY says that they are not identical.

Where do you come off calling me a lier because I am not saying that the PB games are identical, when I said they are not identical?

-----------------

PB does not his the liescence for the TMNT product line. Bringing up a non-cannon book into the discussion is showing you are grasping at strings. Other non-canon books due to loss of license are: the Macross 2 books, RT 1st ed, RT 2nd ed, and the TMNT books. (if anyone knows of others please add to the list).

Aside...

Spoiler:

**************

Where in a universe are everything the same? The short answer is 'Nowhere'. The PB games use the same basic system. Yes, those games have VARIATIONS, .... even in the rules. And the Different games are in different universes so why should the rules for them be the same? The Megavercial Builder RDB even acknowledges this.

In fact the games Can't ""Be The Same" when you have some that can't have MDC (or to say are only SDC/HP) and others that have MDC, and another where there is only MDC.
+++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++
So if you have a vote about it.....would you vote for the more fun and simpler orginal MWP rules in HU, N&S, the RMB, and nearly every other PB game. Or would you vote for the more Real World MWP rules in RUE? Remember that the Rifts MWP rules do not fit the spies and agents (007) genre and they do not fit a heroes (SM, IM, WW, AqM, CA etc...) genre.

If I had the vote I would have the original MWP rules as the over all canon. But I would include the rifts MWP rules as an optional rules set for those that want a real world element in their games. Why? Because they make the game More Fun.

????????????????????????????????
"the OP isn't saying make everything Rifts." Then I will ask this again "WHY DIDN"T HE ASK THIS QUESTION IN THE ALL THINGS PALLADIUM BOOKS FORUM? Where the forum was specifically set up for these sorts of questions.

"he's pointing out the failings in how things have been halfassed published adhoc over the DECADES needing to be cleaned up."
Where was it that this was said with these words? Where did you see me say I was opposed this this idea?
All I heard (yes you got to read the sub-text too) the OP say was he wanted to make all the other games clones of the Rifts rules by what he said and WHERE he said it. Which is a non-starter for those who hate rifts.

Most of the arguments here are over rules interactions that are between new books and the older books. So I know about nearly all of them because people keep presenting their house rule "Fixes" as if they were canon. :roll:

Nearly ALL of the older books need to be updated. (older books: those that were not published this year.)

What I don't want it for the stupid & lame game setting's core book; who's players already thing that the Rifts rules are the 'IS ALL and BE ALL' of the PB games and can be rude to the point of being sickening about it; to be used as the core for updating the other games. This is what I've been saying all topic.

Resolve this one issue and I'd be all for updating all the books. But ignore this issue and just use RIFTS as THE ONLY SOURCE for the updating PB will loose people.

N&S should still feel like Ninja and Superspies. With Gizmoteer builders and Agents and Martial Artists with CHI powers. Not the Stupid psionic and PPE conversion in Rifts.

HU should still feel like Heroes Unlimited. With super powers and chars that can shoot strait and build the improbable when low level. Heroes that can DODGE gunfire. Not the 'it might hit', 'maybe you can dodge it but most likely not' real world like MWP rules in Rifts.

This whole topic could of went better if the OP had: 1) posted it in the right forum, 2) clearly said what was objectively wrong (that the older books needed updating), 3) Not imply that he wanted to make the other games identical to Rifts by his choice of words & ideas and where he posted this topic.
In other words the OP ended up with an argument by not being objective in declaring things and just stating the end result he wanted. If he had wanted to just update all the books then that was what he should of said instead of being rude to the point of being sickening.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:19 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1) posted it in the right forum

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:"the OP isn't saying make everything Rifts." Then I will ask this again "WHY DIDN"T HE ASK THIS QUESTION IN THE ALL THINGS PALLADIUM BOOKS FORUM? Where the forum was specifically set up for these sorts of questions.

Where I post is not relevant, the source of topic is - so yet another strawman, and an attempt to deflect.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:3) Not imply that he wanted to make the other games identical to Rifts by his choice of words & ideas and where he posted this topic.
In other words the OP ended up with an argument by not being objective in declaring things and just stating the end result he wanted. If he had wanted to just update all the books then that was what he should of said instead of being rude to the point of being sickening.

This point is also a lie.
Never at any point have I said make identical to Rifts - not once; and I was very clear in my question about a second edition. Nor have I said anything about updating all the books. I was very clear. Second Edition. Which means one collated source of core rules, that every setting will use. I have been very clear about this, on multiple instances.

And the only reason I have been curt with you is because the issue here is that you go on about being OCD with words yet you have not read what is right in front of you, or gone with your spin which is in fact not true. So while this is the internet, and words can be misread, or misunderstood, when I have had to reiterate the point 3-4 times, it is because I am exasperated with having to drum home the key intention. This is something I should not have to do with an adult person this many times unless their key intention was to deliberately derail, and be needlessly pedantic.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:2) clearly said what was objectively wrong (that the older books needed updating)

Don't need to, it was an open-ended question about needing a second edition.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Different genres need their own tweaks so the games in the systems have minor differences that are well within people's abilities to allow this differences, exclude those differences...or make what changes they see fit for their games. Will they be the same as what you would do....most likely not. But it will be people not being sheep or lemmings while using their own brains to figure things out for themselves. And the gaming society will be better for it.

This is lazy reasoning and excuse to allow Palladium to continue in their half-assed ways: Fact.
Palladium should present a cohesive rules structure for use and integration across all their games: Fact.
That Palladium does not do this: Fact.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If you are thinking about how much "conversions" the Chi powers would need to play in Rifts....Rifter 3 has a conversion text already written out. While it is not "official" it is still there to use.

There should not be a conversion book, or the need to purchase other books to run the game in higher power levels, and I should not need to play hunt the rulers from various rules books.

It should be in one system of cohesive rules.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, in general if you can play one PB game you can play all of them. All the core concepts and core rules are the same. It is just the individual game tweaks that are being complained about here.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Where in a universe are everything the same? The short answer is 'Nowhere'. The PB games use the same basic system. Yes, those games have VARIATIONS, .... even in the rules. And the Different games are in different universes so why should the rules for them be the same? The Megavercial Builder RDB even acknowledges this.

This is also a lie.
To run HU in Rifts I need Skraypers. To use magic effectively I need Rifts Magic book. This should not be happening. It should be under one central source. Then each individual game line can have individual setting tweaks, but the caveat here is that you can only have so many tweaks before things fall down, like Pathfinder 1e, which essentially imploded under its own weight of individual settings tweaks. Thus they innovated with a second edition.

And you know what Pathfinder also did, had a website with lots details and rules on it in order to help people. Know what Palladium has not done - been helpful with a website.

But at the moment the rules are broken AF, do not work. All of these are facts mean that things need to change. And Palladium fans like you, are what is causing the company to die - fact.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What I said; And What the RCB1/RCB1r says; that they are different games using the same system. That they are different games AUTOMATICLY says that they are not identical.

Also false.
If that was the case no conversion books would be required.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:PB does not his the liescence for the TMNT product line. Bringing up a non-cannon book into the discussion is showing you are grasping at strings. Other non-canon books due to loss of license are: the Macross 2 books, RT 1st ed, RT 2nd ed, and the TMNT books. (if anyone knows of others please add to the list).

Trying to use this as attempt to deflect the point is dishonest.
And the point brought up still stands as it, people need to buy numerous books to get a complete set of rules.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In fact the games Can't ""Be The Same" when you have some that can't have MDC (or to say are only SDC/HP) and others that have MDC, and another where there is only MDC

False every setting has MDC in some form or manner. It is simply a game mechanic to represent larger values of damage - nothing more.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:46 am**

Drew thats a whole lot of words to just say "LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING, I DON'T WANT TO LISTEN, AND I'M NOT GOING TO LISTEN"

Sadly the company does listen to the minority like yourself...likely because it involves the absolute least amount of effort and actual work to do...

Yet in the past the 20 years this company has fallen to utter irrelevance because of it.

Weekly, what amounts to, begging fans to do the work for them in "getting the word out", sale after sale of products the VAST majority of us have, attempts to direct sell to retailers because proper distributors/distribution want nothing to do with them, and celebrating a minor uptick in online sales....all signs this company is a failure.

And spare me the "tragedies of betrayals" people like you like to blame for this failure.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:48 am**

And for someone who loathes rifts as much as you do you seem to miss that every game save n&ss (and bts2e psionics which would be an example of a setting specific set of rules) has be written or revised to a rifts standard at some point. Every one of them

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:48 am**

Are the colors supposed to indicate yelling, or are we just getting artistic?

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:23 am**

jaymz wrote:Drew thats a whole lot of words to just say "LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING, I DON'T WANT TO LISTEN, AND I'M NOT GOING TO LISTEN"

...snip

Then sadly, you are trying to put words into my mouth which I didn't say. I have been LISTENING, I could not of been making my arguments to counter the ones presented here if I had not been listening. The word listening means hearing with attention and understanding. Not 'obeying' or 'submitting.'

What I have not been doing is Agreeing with y'all that the PB games need to be rifts clones...have one core book. There is a big difference between the two.

As I stated before: and someone wasn't apparently listening otherwise they wouldn't of said I wasn't listening: I agree that the older books need to be updated.

How would I make N&S updated....first thing I would make it a PU-like HU sourcebook (it is already mostly based in the HU style ed system). Making the Gizmoteer a Hardware char type, or just putting them with the rest that would be falling under the "special training umbrella" The bionic agent would go under the bionic section. Clean up the MAFs so they don't have to list every single basic move and just list the special moves for the MAF. Keep that the player chooses which MA power-skill that come with the individual MAF. Loose the outfit req. and increase the APM by double.
Yes this way would lose an individual game but most players mostly use the N&S book as a sourcebook anyways.

Mystic China...the issue there is that it is a CC based ed system so it can not be easily merged into HU like N&S can. Still that Is what I would do because the CC's core skills can just be their 1st skill program (much like how the HU mages automaticly have their mandatory skills. The CCs would end up looser and might end up with more 'other skills' then what they would get now because of the HU ed systems.

Of course the HU2r core book & AU is also showing signs of being long in tooth.

I've seen what a Game written to RUE stand and looks like....RT2. That worked because it is a MDC setting.

Maybe it is time for PB to do a new edition of HU. Muring the N&S and MC into it. But for god's sake do call it a <descriptive adverb> Ultimate edition. I would keep the ed systems, but update & add more skill programs, Update the bionics section so it is easier to import stuff from other PB sources.

Color highlight sections so people don't miss them because the human brain does not like to reconize the word 'not' because it inverts the meaning of the rest of the words. Or to differentiate a change in line of thought because I am talking about something totally different than the =last section.
In other words, so you don't miss them since that what it looks like some people had been doing in my other posts.
aka (using jaymz's wording) Not listening.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:35 am**

And you utterly missed my point, unsurprisingly...
I wasn't being literal....

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:39 am**

No I got your point. I was just pointing out that not agreeing with you is not the same as not listening to you.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:39 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:No I got your point. I was just not agreeing with you.

Lol no....no you didn't.....but believe whatever you like.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:41 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Then sadly, you are trying to put words into my mouth which I didn't say. I have been LISTENING, I could not of been making my arguments to counter the ones presented here if I had not been listening. The word listening means hearing with attention and understanding. Not 'obeying' or 'submitting.'

No, you have not been listening as I have proven on multiple occasions.
So again, not only is your statement false, you are lying - yet again.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What I have not been doing is Agreeing with y'all that the PB games need to be rifts clones...have one core book. There is a big difference between the two.

Emphasis mine. No one said Rifts clone.
Again you are being deliberately contentious, and misrepresenting the statement, to the point of being a deliberate troll. Because at this point, your attitude, your behaviour, and the way you are deliberately going out of your way to twist statements tells me this your agenda.

EDIT

In fact to expound upon this, a core book should also represent and demonstrate the different power levels of play. A good example of this is the Modern: Age system which has essentially three modes of play.

Gritty
Pulp
Cinematic

And it gives examples how this should be altered to enable play. Not only that, but not only are the main rules in the Modern: Age core book, Modern: Age Companion; but they are also getting a Modern: Age powers book too. This later system is so popular that Fantasy: Age is getting a second edition. Well would you look at that. Recoginising faults in a system, innovating and putting them right with another edition.

On top of that there is a multiverse setting called Modern: Age Threefold. Which is simply amazing.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:45 am**

jaymz wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:No I got your point. I was just not agreeing with you.

Lol no....no you didn't.....but believe whatever you like.

Believe what you will... when someone says that the other 'isn't listening to them' they mean that the other isn't keeling over to submit to them.

I have read and understood your arguments. I'm just not agreeing with the conclusion that says "That what is Needed is a single core book".

I do agree with he conclusion "The core books to the PB games need to be updated while keeping their individual character."

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:48 am**

Drew. We're listening.
We're not agreeing.
We think you're wrong, pretty much on every point.

The fact that you've spent considerable word count arguing against your own strawmen doesn't really help others agree with you.

No one is asking for Rifts clones.

We're saying "If it's one system it should be one SYSTEM with different SETTINGS"

You're advocating for 5+ Different palladium systems. For.... reasons. (That seem to boil down to you not liking the RUE, It's been 15 years man. Get on board or hush up.) You've even attempted to state that all the differences in the same SYSTEM are perks because... "DIVERSITY"..... people want rules to be rules. Not subject to whim, mood or weather. (Unless they're rules on weather).

The colors just make it look like you're frenzying and spouting out into hue, or forgot to taken your meds and are dipping into skittles to try and make it pretty.

As for "Maybe such and such needs an update"

Really?

Ya think?

lol Try building a simple video baby monitor with the HU rules. When it comes back at $20,000+ for what you can buy in Target for $150, get back to us.

Remember the height of tech in HU is mid to late 80s tech. With the singular exception of the N-Gage mentioned in PU2. The .... N-Gage... and we KNOW why that is there.

That's with out even touching on the computer rules that make "Microchips" Sound like transistors in radios

Yes they need revision. Yes they need update. that's 100% the point. lol They also need a single rule system.

But take heart.

Neither one of us is going to get what we want.

Kevin is far too long in the tooth to consider a revision. And he's shown no inclination of doing so for a decade and a half. The only revision we'll get is if Kevin retires and sells the IP's.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:49 am**

And yet you still miss it.....submission is and never has been the goal and your deliberate obtuseness in the matter makes it pointless to continue....

So keep believing you are right (which would be you wanting US to submit to you by the way)

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:10 am**

Okay so let's pin down what Second Edition Palladium needs-

1. One core book: Contains all the necessary rules, and skills etc. As well as functioning as a toolbox to enable bespoke use in chargen using dice or point buy methods. How to create character classes, and how to remove them entirely. Some basic powers will be included in this book, and includes magic, psionics, super powers etc. And how to play at different power levels.

2. Powers book: This is the toolkit for making powers, and does need to be very long.

3. Setting specific books, which will have tweaks for each one, but still adhere to main rules. Kind of like Age have done with Modern and Fantasy. But with Fantasy getting a 2e which will adhere to Modern main rules. But this is mainly setting details, and fluff, to ensure GM's and players can understand the kind of place it is, and kind of power level it is.

4. Multiverse setting book, describing cosmology, possibly dimensions, universes, parallels etc. Puts the jigsaw together so to speak to enable to understand what kind of things the players can encounter. Mutants and Masterminds have done this for example.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The only revision we'll get is if Kevin retires and sells the IP's.

And if I had the money I buy it in a heartbeat.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:30 pm**

Since there is already One Gaming system in the major four PB Games. Yes, its is One System. If it was not one system then there would not be easy imposing of characters, monsters and rules between the PB games.

So this is where the main conflict if. You don't see the PB system as one systems with minor tweaks in each game. You see it as a different systems in each game.

This is the conflict. Which is why we are speaking around each other. Because I am seeing That the System in each game is the same, in a general over arching sence, even those there are minor differences between the games (yes there are exceptions but they are very old or are intentionally done that way)...

... and you are saying that, in a CDO way, if the rules are not exactly the same then there are different systems and you don't care that the rules are within less then a % point of the PB game you count as "the canon" or if the differences or 10% differences, anything different means they are different systems.

I would agree that books and games need updating. But making them 'The same game, with setting books' is not the way to go in my opinion. You have have expressed your opinions. And I fully understand them. And totally disagree with your conclusions.

That I disagree with your conclusions does not make me stupid. It just means I have thought about it and come to my own conclusions which are not the same as your's. Do I think the conclusions you came to are stupid? I think the PB should be doing things their way and not be lemmings by doing follow the leader without thinking about things very carefully and being very situationally aware when they do take any steps.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:01 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Since there is already One Gaming system in the major four PB Games. Yes, its is One System. If it was not one system then there would not be easy imposing of characters, monsters and rules between the PB games.

So this is where the main conflict if. You don't see the PB system as one systems with minor tweaks in each game. You see it as a different systems in each game.

This is the conflict. Which is why we are speaking around each other. Because I am seeing That the System in each game is the same, in a general over arching sence, even those there are minor differences between the games (yes there are exceptions but they are very old or are intentionally done that way)...

... and you are saying that, in a CDO way, if the rules are not exactly the same then there are different systems and you don't care that the rules are within less then a % point of the PB game you count as "the canon" or if the differences or 10% differences, anything different means they are different systems.

I would agree that books and games need updating. But making them 'The same game, with setting books' is not the way to go in my opinion. You have have expressed your opinions. And I fully understand them.

This is a lie, and ignoring the evidence of a conversion book, one powers and one magic book. Mystic China got two books to convert into Rifts. And most stuff gets a book to convert. If it was easy this would not necessary.

It is not one system.

So your statement is garbage.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:09 pm**

Rogerd wrote:
This is a lie, and ignoring the evidence of a conversion book, one powers and one magic book. Mystic China got two books to convert into Rifts. And most stuff gets a book to convert. If it was easy this would not necessary.

It is not one system.

So your statement is garbage.

Wondering how I should respond to this personal attack on the poster.....

...decided...I reported it.

"... evidence of a conversion book..."
I already commented on this when I quoted the RCB1 & RCB1r. but I'll repost the quote...
"These other worlds are not an official part of the Rifts game setting and are stand-alone games that all use the same basic set of RPG rules."

The same basic set of rules.....this is what I mean when I say there are the same system.
Since you are being CDO about all of this....goodbye.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:11 pm**

He attacked your statement not you so you are just demonstrating your own pettiness. Good job.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Wondering how I should respond to this personal attack on the poster.....

...decided...I reported it.

"... evidence of a conversion book..."
I already commented on this when I quoted the RCB1 & RCB1r. but I'll repost the quote...
"These other worlds are not an official part of the Rifts game setting and are stand-alone games that all use the same basic set of RPG rules."

The same basic set of rules.....this is what I mean when I say there are the same system.
Since you are being CDO about all of this....goodbye.

Basically I am calling you out on BS statements.

Every.Single.Time.

There is a remedy for that, don't make them. Easy peasy.

If it was the same basic system, there would be no conversion. Guess what you gave to do? Convert it. Thus different enough, to not be the same. Not that difficult to comprehend

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:25 pm**

jaymz wrote:He attacked your statement not you so you are just demonstrating your own pettiness. Good job.

Have I been going around calling people lier's? no
Is attacking the poster against board rules? yes

Since I didn't Misrepresent 'the way things are from my view point' I am not a lier. I presented them from my viewpoint and as my viewpoint. I am not the one that is not even trying to understand what the other is saying. (evidenced that I actually agreed with y'all that the books need updating, if not how to do it.)

I even told y'all I understood how y'all are seeing the minor differences in the Games make you think they are different systems. You might think on that in my view that RUE is just as much an outlier from the "normal" rules, just as much as BTS2 is.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:28 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
jaymz wrote:He attacked your statement not you so you are just demonstrating your own pettiness. Good job.

Have I been going around calling people lier's? no
Is attacking the poster against board rules? yes

Since I didn't Misrepresent 'the way things are from my view point' I am not a lier. I presented them from my viewpoint and as my viewpoint. I am not the one that is not even trying to understand what the other is saying. (evidenced that I actually agreed with y'all that the books need updating, if not how to do it.)

I even told y'all I understood how y'all are seeing the minor differences in the Games make you think they are different systems. You might think on that in my view that RUE is just as much an outlier from the "normal" rules, just as much as BTS2 is.

No, I am attacking your statement.
Perhaps you should go educate yourself by looking up ad hominem, you might learn something. Not the least of which you even said they have different rules for each setting. So not the same, thus conversion.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:32 pm**

English Drew

"This is a lie" attacks the statement, not you. Attacking you would be "you are a liar". It wasn't. Try again.

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