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I'm trying to figure out what a Shifter can summon that can handle Mechanoid Wasps. A Greater Air Elemental in energy form can fly at Mach One, but Wasps can fly at Mach 3. Is there any creature that can catch them?

AFAIK, short of anything that can travel FTL Wasps are the fastest beings in the Palladium Megaverse.

Try something that teleports.

The spell Wings of the Demon Locust (DB12 pg 188), if available, can let a target fly circles around a Wasp.

Vaccume Wasps from Phase World can fly at mach 6 in Atmosphere; however while Alien they are not Supernatural and so not summonable.

keep in mind too that everything does not have to be flying at max speed all the time.. in fact the faster you go the harder it is to turn, so a mechanoid wasp might well slow to mach 1 or even subsonic speeds when fighting, especially a ground target. (since at mach 3 it would only be able to get off one shot at a target before passing through its weapon range and having to perform a lengthy turn to come back)

Try something out of the ACME cartoon catalog. Wile E. Coyote seemed to pull some some fun stuff out of his

glitterboy2098 wrote:keep in mind too that everything does not have to be flying at max speed all the time.. in fact the faster you go the harder it is to turn, so a mechanoid wasp might well slow to mach 1 or even subsonic speeds when fighting, especially a ground target. (since at mach 3 it would only be able to get off one shot at a target before passing through its weapon range and having to perform a lengthy turn to come back)

Ya, this is the logical answer, however:

SB2 wrote:the wasp can go from 0 to Mach 3 in five seconds and come to a complete stop in an instant

Curbludgeon wrote:The spell Wings of the Demon Locust (DB12 pg 188), if available, can let a target fly circles around a Wasp.

I wasn't aware of this spell. Looks interesting. And the Shifter in the group has a supernatural pact with Mephisto, so there is room for some learning.

narcissus wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:keep in mind too that everything does not have to be flying at max speed all the time.. in fact the faster you go the harder it is to turn, so a mechanoid wasp might well slow to mach 1 or even subsonic speeds when fighting, especially a ground target. (since at mach 3 it would only be able to get off one shot at a target before passing through its weapon range and having to perform a lengthy turn to come back)

Ya, this is the logical answer, however:

SB2 wrote:the wasp can go from 0 to Mach 3 in five seconds and come to a complete stop in an instant

I was just about to point that out.

Never played a Shifter before so I'm more ignorant on this subject than others.

How much control does the Shifter have over summoned creatures? Do they get as Saving Throw vs Summoning? Or a Save every round to break the bond? If the bond is broken somehow, do they go after the first target of opportunity, vanish back to their "home," or go after the Shifter who summoned them? Does the Shifter feel any "backlash" if a summoned creature is killed while under their control (kind of like a psychic link)?

I think that's enough questions for today.

Blackwater Sniper wrote:Never played a Shifter before so I'm more ignorant on this subject than others.

How much control does the Shifter have over summoned creatures? Do they get as Saving Throw vs Summoning? Or a Save every round to break the bond? If the bond is broken somehow, do they go after the first target of opportunity, vanish back to their "home," or go after the Shifter who summoned them? Does the Shifter feel any "backlash" if a summoned creature is killed while under their control (kind of like a psychic link)?

I think that's enough questions for today.

There is not a saving throw so much as immediately upon Summoning, a Battle of Wills takes place, which is where their ME and MA go head to head (MA for shifter, ME for Summoned being), which is a best 3 falls out of 5. (Rolling stops as soon as one side wins 3 times). If the summoned being wins, they are not bound to obey, and can do whatever they want, which is generally either to leave back to their home dimension immediately, or fight the Shifter to punish it (Usually the latter in case of demons)

Battle of Wills subduing has no specfic duration, however, it's recommended that the duration be kept to a few months to no more than a year: After that point, the summoned beings tend to grow increasingly agitated, will increasingly rebel, and will rack up more opportunities to engage in new battles of wills to break free*

The Battle of Wills may be bypassed by making a deal with the summoned being, getting the demon or other being to volentarily agree to service. This will require either cowing the demon (If the Shifter and friends beat the Summoned being badly enough that it is very clear it's outmatched, it may offer service to make the beatings stop), or Offering something the summoned being wants (Generally something very expensive and in the case of demons, usually bad)). This bypasses the battle of wills and time limit entirely, and is more like a formal employment contract to be negotiated by both parties. the Being will service in a specified capacity for a specified time, from being a general henchman to only having one specific task than leaving. This tends to be easier to deal with, as volentary employees tend to be happier and less rebellious than enslaved people.

The summoned being has to obey any command given.* in the first case. In the case of a negotiated contract, they only have to obey to the extent their contract specifies, which can range from full service to a limited to limited service for a specfied period.

*Any command that is either Suicidal in nature, or goes against the beings deeply held nature, offers an opportunty for a new battle of wills. And weather they get a new battle of wills or not...do you REALLY want a demon Monkey Pawing you on every single command? Demons do that more and more the longer you keep them around, so keeping summon durations short is always to your benefit.

One final note: It IS possible for a Shifter and Summoned Being to strike up a genuine friendship, or master/servant relationship, and the summoned being will happily serve for any length of time, even potentially indefinately if Shifter is also (somehow) very long lived or immortal himself, but this requires both compatible personalities and a lot of work, and can never be relied on: After all, demons can be pretty good at feigning friendship too.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Vaccume Wasps from Phase World can fly at mach 6 in Atmosphere; however while Alien they are not Supernatural and so not summonable.

Shifters can't summon COM like fairies? I know Summoners can.

Axelmania wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Vaccume Wasps from Phase World can fly at mach 6 in Atmosphere; however while Alien they are not Supernatural and so not summonable.

Shifters can't summon COM like fairies? I know Summoners can.

I'm not sure: but it's not relevent here: Vaccume Wasps are not CoM either. They're completely mundane aliens.

naricissus wrote:I'm trying to figure out what a Shifter can summon that can handle Mechanoid Wasps. A Greater Air Elemental in energy form can fly at Mach One, but Wasps can fly at Mach 3. Is there any creature that can catch them?

Off hand I do not think so (Evil Cosmo Knight maybe). What you most likely would have to do is create a creature that the Shifter can summon, and the random monster table in the old RMB (or Phaseworld alien) likely can help but you'd have to fudge somethings (like the Spd attribute would need to get close to 3000 while flying since SPD attribute is in ft/sec). Alternatively something that can discourage high speed flight might also be useful. (Ex. Summon and Control Storm makes air travel impossible, or Wall of Wind would stop a Wasp he is not heavy enough or strong enough to overcome the spell though this requires proper deployment to work).

If the PS is high enough casting "Winged Flight" would covert PS to Flying Speed = PSx5 (you'll need a PS of 589 or better), its unlikely you'll be able to get a PS this high but it would be an option.

glitterboy2098 wrote:keep in mind too that everything does not have to be flying at max speed all the time.. in fact the faster you go the harder it is to turn, so a mechanoid wasp might well slow to mach 1 or even subsonic speeds when fighting, especially a ground target. (since at Mach 3 it would only be able to get off one shot at a target before passing through its weapon range and having to perform a lengthy turn to come back)

At Mach 3 (2010mph or ~2948ft/s) it would cover the 4000ft range of its guns in ~1.36seconds, each of its 6 actions takes up ~2.5seconds. So I would say it doesn't even have time to attack (it takes to long for it to perform an action given the range involved with the attack maybe qualifying as wild if taken, then there is the movement penalty to strike if one enforces those rules). At its stated 500mph (or ~733.3ft/s) low end cruising speed, it would take ~5.45seconds to cover the 4000ft range of its guns before covering that distance allowing it to make 2 attacks (it's high end cruise of Mach 1 means 1 attack, maybe a second as wild). Its stated acceleration from 0 to Mach 3 in 5 seconds means it takes 2 actions up (from cruise it would be less, but practically it would take up 2 actions).

Really great analysis ShadowLogan. Thanks!

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Vaccume Wasps are not CoM either. They're completely mundane aliens.

I guess the issue is how hard a cap this is.

RUE123 says "communicate with and manipulate inhuman creatures" at the start of the summoning ability, so initially "inhuman" is the only restriction.

Battle of Wills initially specifies a "lesser supernatural being" but that clearly is NOT a hard cap, since the next page also talks about them being able to affect "greater" ones too.

The bottom-right "Note" on 123 also says "or lesser creature of magic" also enforcing that BOW's "lesser supernatural" is not a strict guideline as to the "inhuman creatures" criteria.

124's condition B defines three groups what BOW can control:
"lesser supernatural being or demon"
"sub-demons or imp-like minor creatures, Poltergeists or Haunting Entities"
"Greater Demon or undead"

This list is clearly not all-inclusive since the "lesser creature of magic" specified on the previous page would not fit into any of these groupings.

Unless: the closest might be that we consider Faerie Folk to be "imp-like minor creatures". I expect they meant that to mean "lesser demons who are tiny" like Dyval Imps, but it seems reasonable for faeries too.

If that's the case then I would think Gnomes could possibly qualify (they're about the size of a Spriggan or an Imp) but Faerie are generally more useful.

Summoners are obviously not limited like this, they can "Summon Pawn" any species, but the ingredients of that circle require very specific components.