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Have been messing around with a "civilization rebuilder" type of character and many venues of creating "basic" infrastructure, mass-producing refrigerators (eletrically powered or not) not the least among them.

But while rethinking about this decided for once he might want to take a look into what "those curious magic-using people" have to offer in the area that might help with his business.

warlocks have a spell explicitly to freeze water, using that or building a TW device for it to make large ice blocks that can be stored in an entirely conventional ice house and/or delivered could be a useful way of ensuring refigeration in areas where a working electrical grid might be prohibitive.

of course the most vital purpose of refrigeration is preventing food spoilage, and drying, salting, or pickling the foods might be more cost effective and stable for many foodstuffs.

Orin J. wrote:warlocks have a spell explicitly to freeze water, using that or building a TW device for it to make large ice blocks that can be stored in an entirely conventional ice house and/or delivered could be a useful way of ensuring refigeration in areas where a working electrical grid might be prohibitive.

For the sake of specifity, air, water warlocks or both?

Orin J. wrote:of course the most vital purpose of refrigeration is preventing food spoilage, and drying, salting, or pickling the foods might be more cost effective and stable for many foodstuffs.

True, though all those processes can also be time-intensive, not to mention tend to alter the foods' taste in some way, among other things.

There are a number of ways to go with it for sure. Truth be told, the character's main challenge is balancing the many options provided to him by his peculiar combination of knowledge and resources with the interests & needs of the people he wants to help versus those of some groups he associates with and provide him with his respectable resources.

I'd go with a TW device. There's plenty of cold spells to choose from.

As an aside, I had a simple idea to produce water for a small community. Have an Air Warlock cast Snow Storm in/over a large (200ft across) holding tank. That'll put 6 feet of snow in the tank... which works out to about 95,000 gallons of water.

Mack wrote:I'd go with a TW device. There's plenty of cold spells to choose from.

As an aside, I had a simple idea to produce water for a small community. Have an Air Warlock cast Snow Storm in/over a large (200ft across) holding tank. That'll put 6 feet of snow in the tank... which works out to about 95,000 gallons of water.

Funny that would mention a small community. At present the character is a full conversion Borg (actually a robot created by Archie in his "goody phase", captured & modified by Kittani and then escaped) acting as teacher in one such small community that, through events in the game, joined the army of an alliance of city-states resisting encroachment by the CS and ended up becoming one of their leading scientific & technological figures.

...and leading to the community's passive encroachment into the Alliance, through the making of a garisson, helping him expand the school and a number of other small things in consequence of his importance to their war effort.

It only gets messier when one goes into his interactions with Northern Gun and Naruni Enterprises, not to mention "papa" Archie.

Another TW idea... a food dehydrator that imbues the product with the Sustain spell. The device would make 1oz of jerky as fulfilling/nutritious as a full meal. Perfect for hunters, field workers, or emergency rations.

Mack wrote:Another TW idea... a food dehydrator that imbues the product with the Sustain spell. The device would make 1oz of jerky as fulfilling/nutritious as a full meal. Perfect for hunters, field workers, or emergency rations.

I can definitely see the Alliance investing time & resources in producing a number of these for its army use.

If you're looking for storage/traveling, make sure your container is double-lined with a vacuum between the inner and outer shell. There's very little transfer of heat. It's what makes Yeti containers maintain hot/cold beverages. It's also how the cryogenic jugs that liquid nitrogen is carried around for experiments are designed.

SolCannibal wrote:Have been messing around with a "civilization rebuilder" type of character and many venues of creating "basic" infrastructure, mass-producing refrigerators (eletrically powered or not) not the least among them.

But while rethinking about this decided for once he might want to take a look into what "those curious magic-using people" have to offer in the area that might help with his business.

You want a PFRPG Diabolist.
Impervious To Heat ward + area effect + permanence should be able to make walk-in fridges & freezers; its used that way at least once in canon, iirc, although I might not remember the proper ward chain.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:Have been messing around with a "civilization rebuilder" type of character and many venues of creating "basic" infrastructure, mass-producing refrigerators (eletrically powered or not) not the least among them.

But while rethinking about this decided for once he might want to take a look into what "those curious magic-using people" have to offer in the area that might help with his business.

You want a PFRPG Diabolist.
Impervious To Heat ward + area effect + permanence should be able to make walk-in fridges & freezers; its used that way at least once in canon, iirc, although I might not remember the proper ward chain.

Aw yeah, PF Diabolist is awesome indeed. One of our games has the Graffitos, a gang of diabolist street artists in a city in the Magic Zone, that have one of the safest/deadliest districts in the whole place.

SolCannibal wrote:

Orin J. wrote:warlocks have a spell explicitly to freeze water, using that or building a TW device for it to make large ice blocks that can be stored in an entirely conventional ice house and/or delivered could be a useful way of ensuring refigeration in areas where a working electrical grid might be prohibitive.

For the sake of specifity, air, water warlocks or both?

level three water, level four air, although circle of rain (which creates rain for the ice and can be used indoors) is the same level for the water spell so water warlock makes a much better choice to draw on there.

SolCannibal wrote:

Orin J. wrote:of course the most vital purpose of refrigeration is preventing food spoilage, and drying, salting, or pickling the foods might be more cost effective and stable for many foodstuffs.

True, though all those processes can also be time-intensive, not to mention tend to alter the foods' taste in some way, among other things.

first rule of building any sort of infrastructure: everything will be more time-intensive than you first expected.

not refrigeration, but the ley line capsule spell I think does the job just fine. given that it is standard invocation magic and is not prohibitively high level, it's probably going to be by far the most common solution to the problem.

but I suppose it doesn't hurt to pair it up with solutions that are easier to open and close multiple times...

nature magic has a level 5 spell called Keep (Preserve) Food. does what it says on the tin. lasts a week, or 3 weeks in a sealed container, but that one week could be important in terms of taking something out of a time capsule and still having some preservation effect on it. that said, nature magic is pretty rare (if I'm not mistaken, it's a mystic russia thing).

but on the further subject of resource production....

sustain is of course an excellent solution to the question of how you're going to feed people. the duration on it means you can use it once every few days at higher levels. but it has also already been mentioned.

create water (level 6 standard invocation, lower level as a water warlock) combined with water to wine (9th level standard invocation) can create "food" of a sort (more usefully, in a sufficiently desperate situation it counts as medical supplies). obviously not the ideal source of calories, but it's something.

purification is a level 7 standard invocation spell that can instantly render spoiled food safe to eat. not necessarily appetizing, but safe.

stone to flesh is a level 8 standard invocation (and a lower level earth warlock spell) which, in addition to its more traditional uses, can turn ordinary rocks into meat.

but really, magic has a lot of interesting solutions to resource production. earth warlocks are exceptional (they miss out on the fire warlock's ability to create coal, but can create a number of other useful materials... but even standard invocation magic picks up a few of their spells). I am certain that many people would complain, but the simple truth is that the ability to create mummies allows for quite exceptionally versatile power generation that can operate many devices designed to be operated by humans, including unpowered hand tools. certainly, you're not going to have one build a car on its own, but assembly lines should be quite doable. zombies could perform some tasks that would be handled irl by computing devices of various varieties. now, again... this presumes you have a populace that is cool with you raising the dead and using them to perform manual labour, which may not be all that common... but hey, if you do, they can power mills or even generate electricity. golems are probably less distasteful to most people, but also much harder to produce since it costs life force to make one...

While we're praising Earth Elementals... Sculpt and Animate Clay Animals is an excellent way of creating a small labor force. Admittedly, one has to be level 7 or better, but they would last for a couple days and have a supernatural strength. And if the sculptor uses a bit of imagination, the hands could be replaced with simple tools (spade, hammer, etc).

TW Solution:

In certain games Frost Magic from Rifter 70 might be more available for a TW than access to a Water Warlock, but their spells are surprisingly less efficient. The Warlock Freeze Water spell, for example, is 2 PPE more expensive than the Freeze Water Incantation, but 30 times more effective.

Orin J. wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Orin J. wrote:of course the most vital purpose of refrigeration is preventing food spoilage, and drying, salting, or pickling the foods might be more cost effective and stable for many foodstuffs.

True, though all those processes can also be time-intensive, not to mention tend to alter the foods' taste in some way, among other things.

first rule of building any sort of infrastructure: everything will be more time-intensive than you first expected.

Exactly why you try to make it less so in every step of the way you can think of.

Mack wrote:While we're praising Earth Elementals... Sculpt and Animate Clay Animals is an excellent way of creating a small labor force. Admittedly, one has to be level 7 or better, but they would last for a couple days and have a supernatural strength. And if the sculptor uses a bit of imagination, the hands could be replaced with simple tools (spade, hammer, etc).

TW Solution:

Spoiler:

Magical Mack recently enjoyed a late night of camaraderie with several other mystical force masters, not the least of which was a particular Warlock. After foolishly wagering on a game of darts (foolish because Magical Mack uses Telekinesis) the Warlock was forced to work in Magical Mack's Ye Old Techno-Wizard Shoppe to create...

Magical Mack's Build-a-Golem!
This TW device allows a user to create his own elemental assistant. At first glance, the device looks like a rugged tanning bed, but opening the top reveals a bipedal depression. This operator simply puts in 27 PPE and the device then begins to shutter and shake. After a few moments, the lid opens and iron warrior is now lying in the depression ready to serve its master!

The warrior has the following stats: 75 MDC; 6 attacks per melee; IQ 7; PS 22 (supernatural); Speed 25; 3D6 damage, +3 strike/parry/dodge. It will last for 30 hours, after which it crumbles to the ground becoming a useless pile of iron.

(Note - Magical Mack realizes that this is not really Golem, but his marketing department insisted this was a much better name than Build-a-Iron-Warrior-thingy.)

Magical Mack intends to sell these to small communities who can use them to augment their labor force, or support their militia.

Device Stats:
- Device Level 5
- Primary Spell: Sculpt and Animate Clay Animals (BoM, p72-3)
- Secondary Spells: Create Dirt or Clay; Clay to Iron; Breath of Life
- Gems: 14.5 carats of Garnet, 1 carat of Diamond
- PPE Construction Cost: 540.7
- PPE Activation Cost: 27
- Time to Build: 270.4 hours (about 33.8 workdays)
- Build Cost: 56,537 credits
- Recommended sale price: 170,000 credits

Marketing department should have gone with Iron Man Maker!

The lowest cost way....An Ice Boxes that use mass produced ice. It wouldn't matter if the ice was collected in winter, mass produced by a ice plant, or frozen by magic.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The lowest cost way....An Ice Boxes that use mass produced ice. It wouldn't matter if the ice was collected in winter, mass produced by a ice plant, or frozen by magic.

it's also the least resource intensive, since you only need to use the trained experts using the magic at a central location and then use much simpler standard insulation methods everywhere else.

Orin J. wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The lowest cost way....An Ice Boxes that use mass produced ice. It wouldn't matter if the ice was collected in winter, mass produced by a ice plant, or frozen by magic.

it's also the least resource intensive, since you only need to use the trained experts using the magic at a central location and then use much simpler standard insulation methods everywhere else.

Truth be told it was the main idea i had in mind. Less work into setting up the infrastructure, magic is a discrete suplemental help at most, requiring less effort to be accepted or maintained on technological or magical societies both and a number of other things.

These are all incredible ideas, and I love the ingenuity of them, but I believe we are all overthinking the concept. I worked at a job that used an industrial ice machine, making over a ton of ice a day, in small chips. It ran on sea water and electricity. It could have made 2 tons of ice a day, we just never ran it that hard. It was about the size of a mini cooper, and sat on second floor, dumping ice into the first floor bins.

Rebuilding this on rifts earth would be EASY. this is a world with giant robots and power armor, portable nuclear power, etc. Building an electric cooling system with a water feed should be child's play.

here is a video on a very similar ice machine to the one we used on my job.
https://youtu.be/uAn2EP1eMas

In my opinion, give any single Operator two weeks and he could build one of these for about 25000 credits of materials.

I agree with the idea that it will depend on what is the most cost effective/ simplest/ profitable option

in a desert environment with little to no available water source something like the warlock spell (or shipping in water/ice from a distance away MAY make economic sense if the transport costs are low enough.
if water (including salt water) is readily available (cheap) then some method of just freezing it makes more sense

slade2501 wrote:These are all incredible ideas, and I love the ingenuity of them, but I believe we are all overthinking the concept. I worked at a job that used an industrial ice machine, making over a ton of ice a day, in small chips. It ran on sea water and electricity..

i'm assuming we don't have a functioning electrical grid right now, or at least not one that we can dump power on making ice on. if there's a leyline nearby building a TW device that runs off that to freeze the water and conventional insulation gets you the same results and means you don't have to waste energy building the power grid with it in mind when you can/should be putting it towards getting a hospital and radio online

also, here is a series of articles on low or no tech refrigeration methods in real life.
https://www.notechmagazine.com/category/refrigeration
https://wiki.lowtechlab.org/wiki/Frigo_ ... %A9sert/en
https://www.treehugger.com/low-tech-ter ... io-4858405