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This is kinda basic, but I was rereading the Druid, and some of the verbiage stuck out.

More than any other O.C.C., the druid's abilities increase dramatically with experience and maturity. Going up in druidic experience doesn't work on a strict time-scale; after all, a clever apprentice will learn faster than a dull one. As a character gains experience levels, his knowledge of druidic matters increases. After each level there is a test of some kind to check that the druid is qualified to advance to the next level. These tests differ from area to area and from druid to druid, so Game Masters should feel free to create their own.

Any player who has a druid for a character is assumed to have already spent years of study as an apprentice to an older, fully-qualified druid (only full druids may take apprentices). The character starts out at level one knowledge and ability.

The bold part is the important bit. I don't know about y'all, but I always read that as being an externally administered test... you needed to find another druid and have them test you. But, looking back, that's not what it says... just that each druid WILL face a test, and that the druid's test will be unique to them.

Which doesn't do a whole lot, but does make the class a lot more playable.

You are correct. It does not say the test is conducted by another Druid. In fact, the wording is such that a clever GM can do anything to test the Druid, which opens up some incredible storytelling possibilities.
Having never played, nor GMed, a Druid before, I had not noticed this. So nice catch.

Father Goose wrote:You are correct. It does not say the test is conducted by another Druid. In fact, the wording is such that a clever GM can do anything to test the Druid, which opens up some incredible storytelling possibilities.
Having never played, nor GMed, a Druid before, I had not noticed this. So nice catch.

I'm a bit annoyed with myself. I did a lot of work with druids years ago (the Druid section of the Mysteries of Magic manuscript ran 12 pages; quick check says just under 13,000 words), and I completely missed the wording, there.

I can see how that would be frustrating for you. On the bright side, I still think Mysteries of Magic is a great book, even with that oversight. I'll have to reread the Druid section tonight and see how this new insight changes things.

Father Goose wrote:I can see how that would be frustrating for you. On the bright side, I still think Mysteries of Magic is a great book, even with that oversight. I'll have to reread the Druid section tonight and see how this new insight changes things.

There is no druid section in the released book.

I always thought that was an externally administered test too (but did it as a once off to become a master druid, if you passed you got bonuses), done by a circle of druids that controlled/protected a certain set of henges, but that was from mixing 1st and 2nd eds druids together and the druids were a bit more like a celtic bard and so a source of knowledge of ancient things. In fact one of the bigger adventures i have run people through is the search for the druids egg/cauldron, where you can take one sip and get any question answered.

@Mark - Do you think the Druid section will ever get released?

kiralon wrote:@Mark - Do you think the Druid section will ever get released?

I am not hopeful. The first book was, what, 11 years ago? And no movement since then? Sadly, I think it'll mostly live in Google Drive.

Darn, my wife would love an expansion to them

Mark Hall wrote:

Father Goose wrote:I can see how that would be frustrating for you. On the bright side, I still think Mysteries of Magic is a great book, even with that oversight. I'll have to reread the Druid section tonight and see how this new insight changes things.

There is no druid section in the released book.

Ah. Well, it has been a while since I last read it, so I didn't remember that. As I said, I have never played, nor GMed, a Druid character, so I don't generally track where there is Druid related information. And to be clear, I don't dislike the Druid, I have just never been especially inspired to play one.

Father Goose wrote:Ah. Well, it has been a while since I last read it, so I didn't remember that. As I said, I have never played, nor GMed, a Druid character, so I don't generally track where there is Druid related information. And to be clear, I don't dislike the Druid, I have just never been especially inspired to play one.

The first ed druid was better as it was mostly what the were shaman is in second ed.

kiralon wrote:

Father Goose wrote:Ah. Well, it has been a while since I last read it, so I didn't remember that. As I said, I have never played, nor GMed, a Druid character, so I don't generally track where there is Druid related information. And to be clear, I don't dislike the Druid, I have just never been especially inspired to play one.

The first ed druid was better as it was mostly what the were shaman is in second ed.

"Better" is arguable. Certainly more unique, with their focus on shapeshifting, but I wasn't a fan of the % chance to do everything... including turn permanently into an animal.

I had a GM once who used that little bit of text to disqualify the party druid from leveling "until you find another druid to test you." The GM had world-jumped us, and there were no druids on the moon or helping the humans against the Invid, so the poor bastard just didn't level.

We're level 6 or 7 before we get back to Earth, and the Druid is still Level 1. Then the GM makes it extra hard to find another druid (They're in the woods, they don't have phones, what do you do?) and forces the toon to seek out his home town and original master. That took a side mission and a whole game session, the reward of which was "The druid can now level up."

I understand the idea, that a secret order controls who rises in their ranks, but this test requirement seems like an unnecessary restriction on the simple act of gaining XP to me. RAW a druid cannot level until he/she passes a test, which varies from place to place and from druid to druid. No test, no level. As far as I know, this test requirement is unique to druids, and imposes a limit no other OCC has to deal with.

ITWastrel wrote:I had a GM once who used that little bit of text to disqualify the party druid from leveling "until you find another druid to test you." The GM had world-jumped us, and there were no druids on the moon or helping the humans against the Invid, so the poor bastard just didn't level.

We're level 6 or 7 before we get back to Earth, and the Druid is still Level 1. Then the GM makes it extra hard to find another druid (They're in the woods, they don't have phones, what do you do?) and forces the toon to seek out his home town and original master. That took a side mission and a whole game session, the reward of which was "The druid can now level up."

That's some next level BS on the part of the GM! He should have been up front about his dislike of Druids before he approved the character, rather than making the player suffer for so long. That's not cool.

ITWastrel wrote:I understand the idea, that a secret order controls who rises in their ranks, but this test requirement seems like an unnecessary restriction on the simple act of gaining XP to me. RAW a druid cannot level until he/she passes a test, which varies from place to place and from druid to druid. No test, no level. As far as I know, this test requirement is unique to druids, and imposes a limit no other OCC has to deal with.

Fortunately, as Mark has discovered, the text doesn't say that test must be administered by a fellow Druid, only that there will be a test of some sort. This should allow a competent GM to devise alternate approaches to testing the player/character's understanding of what it means to be a Druid, thereby allowing them to level up on par with the rest of the party. Personally, I'm now kinda excited about either playing a Druid, or GMing for a Druid, as I want to be involved in crafting such a story of growth and discovery.

ITWastrel wrote:I understand the idea, that a secret order controls who rises in their ranks, but this test requirement seems like an unnecessary restriction on the simple act of gaining XP to me. RAW a druid cannot level until he/she passes a test, which varies from place to place and from druid to druid. No test, no level. As far as I know, this test requirement is unique to druids, and imposes a limit no other OCC has to deal with.

What actually got me thinking about it was 1st edition AD&D, where the Druid, Assassin, and Monk class all have "Fight someone of your new level to keep your level" requirements, which can have much the same effect of keeping a character stuck. I wrote up something to sidestep that, because it's a bit of a ******** requirement, and then I started thinking about PF druids, and was set to write up something similar... when I saw it wasn't necessary.

Mark Hall wrote:"Better" is arguable. Certainly more unique, with their focus on shapeshifting, but I wasn't a fan of the % chance to do everything... including turn permanently into an animal.

I never minded the percentages, but I did decide that the "you suddenly lose your mind if you fail the second roll to regain your normal form/shape" wasn't really all that fun in a game. It just seemed unreasonable to be stuck up to 6 weeks without losing yourself to the animal, so I changed it to a 2 week gradual slide if the second roll was failed. That left some time after the second failed roll to seek out a druid or mind mage to help before totally becoming feral. That also gives time for the party to come up with a plan for how to deal with the stuck druid if it was going to take longer than that to get help. Getting temporarily stuck really sucks most of the time anyway, so no need to "add insult to injury".

Father Goose wrote:

ITWastrel wrote:I had a GM once who used that little bit of text to disqualify the party druid from leveling "until you find another druid to test you." The GM had world-jumped us, and there were no druids on the moon or helping the humans against the Invid, so the poor bastard just didn't level.

We're level 6 or 7 before we get back to Earth, and the Druid is still Level 1. Then the GM makes it extra hard to find another druid (They're in the woods, they don't have phones, what do you do?) and forces the toon to seek out his home town and original master. That took a side mission and a whole game session, the reward of which was "The druid can now level up."

That's some next level BS on the part of the GM! He should have been up front about his dislike of Druids before he approved the character, rather than making the player suffer for so long. That's not cool.

ITWastrel wrote:I understand the idea, that a secret order controls who rises in their ranks, but this test requirement seems like an unnecessary restriction on the simple act of gaining XP to me. RAW a druid cannot level until he/she passes a test, which varies from place to place and from druid to druid. No test, no level. As far as I know, this test requirement is unique to druids, and imposes a limit no other OCC has to deal with.

Fortunately, as Mark has discovered, the text doesn't say that test must be administered by a fellow Druid, only that there will be a test of some sort. This should allow a competent GM to devise alternate approaches to testing the player/character's understanding of what it means to be a Druid, thereby allowing them to level up on par with the rest of the party. Personally, I'm now kinda excited about either playing a Druid, or GMing for a Druid, as I want to be involved in crafting such a story of growth and discovery.

That GM shouldn't be a GM, ever.
I'd have led a revolt and had a new GM run a game, even if it was me.
I've done it before with bad GMs.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Father Goose wrote:

ITWastrel wrote:I had a GM once who used that little bit of text to disqualify the party druid from leveling "until you find another druid to test you." The GM had world-jumped us, and there were no druids on the moon or helping the humans against the Invid, so the poor bastard just didn't level.

We're level 6 or 7 before we get back to Earth, and the Druid is still Level 1. Then the GM makes it extra hard to find another druid (They're in the woods, they don't have phones, what do you do?) and forces the toon to seek out his home town and original master. That took a side mission and a whole game session, the reward of which was "The druid can now level up."

That's some next level BS on the part of the GM! He should have been up front about his dislike of Druids before he approved the character, rather than making the player suffer for so long. That's not cool.

ITWastrel wrote:I understand the idea, that a secret order controls who rises in their ranks, but this test requirement seems like an unnecessary restriction on the simple act of gaining XP to me. RAW a druid cannot level until he/she passes a test, which varies from place to place and from druid to druid. No test, no level. As far as I know, this test requirement is unique to druids, and imposes a limit no other OCC has to deal with.

Fortunately, as Mark has discovered, the text doesn't say that test must be administered by a fellow Druid, only that there will be a test of some sort. This should allow a competent GM to devise alternate approaches to testing the player/character's understanding of what it means to be a Druid, thereby allowing them to level up on par with the rest of the party. Personally, I'm now kinda excited about either playing a Druid, or GMing for a Druid, as I want to be involved in crafting such a story of growth and discovery.

That GM shouldn't be a GM, ever.
I'd have led a revolt and had a new GM run a game, even if it was me.
I've done it before with bad GMs.

As a mechanic, I dislike the notion of requiring extra hoops in-game for character advancement in terms of proficiency/skill. That said, I like the notion of requiring some extra hoops in-game for certain types of advancement (rank, status, seniority within a community/organization, or abilities bestowed by an outside power). Were I in that GM's position, I'd present it more as a "you can use these powers, but you'll have some explaining to do to your community when you get back.

All that said, I personally dislike druids in general as a class, especially the 2nd Edition version. They amount to third-rate priests, and along with the Psi-Healer, are the two lamest non-Optional O.C.C.'s in the game from a mechanics standpoint. From a lore standpoint, they seem a little out-of-focus, with their description providing some interesting principles that seem vague and difficult to put into game terms.

Well, I'm with Hotshot here. The Druid is a lame class and I've never seen a Player create and play one. The idea of a set of challenges does make for some decent role-playing opportunities. An enterprising GM could come up with a list of challenges to level in advance. Thus the imaginary PC who is playing the druid would know what was required and could plan/prepare for the challenge. It could also make for some interesting role-playing when the Druid in the group knows he or she has to travel somewhere for a challenge and the group needs to make a journey. It's a classic trope, but it's a good one.

-Vek
"We have some fine PFRPG minds here. We COULD create that list of challenges."

Veknironth wrote:Well, I'm with Hotshot here. The Druid is a lame class and I've never seen a Player create and play one. The idea of a set of challenges does make for some decent role-playing opportunities. An enterprising GM could come up with a list of challenges to level in advance. Thus the imaginary PC who is playing the druid would know what was required and could plan/prepare for the challenge. It could also make for some interesting role-playing when the Druid in the group knows he or she has to travel somewhere for a challenge and the group needs to make a journey. It's a classic trope, but it's a good one.

-Vek
"We have some fine PFRPG minds here. We COULD create that list of challenges."

The problem for me with regards to these challenges is pacing, illustrated by ITWastrel's story.

If the druid is the only one who has to seek out training, it limits the stories where they can participate. If every few thousand XP they have to seek out an NPC, and no one else does, then they're going to be lagging behind everyone, especially if the story crunch comes on.

I'd additionally note that it's not like the druid is a powerful enough class to warrant this kind of treatment; it's not like they're top-tier spell-slingers or combatants, or even really strong knowledge monkeys... they're a priest who knows a few spells, a few knowledges, and otherwise fairly restricted (like most level-dependent characters)

The Druids in my campaign worship that old, small pantheon with Lashgan, Isurron, and so on... not the other deities.
I don't make them do anything extra from any other OCC

My Druids worship the spirit of the land, and their champion is far hunter, and its not just GNW Druids, but all the druids, and the spirit of the land is both male and female and works with the fey. I had one of my Druids become Far Hunter once in the late nineties, as it's a title and a mantle of Power bestowed by the spirit of the land (loosely based of the mantle of the gods in the floenry isles) that basically gave the player antlers and magical powers when the power was called upon, otherwise it was a polar bearskin cloak with a hood that had weird celtic designs on it in cobalt blue.

My druids are actually an old magical science, threatened with extinction during the Millenium of Purification, that went into the GNW and got mixed with some shamanic beliefs to form a syncretic and somewhat impenetrable religion that doesn't worship anything real, but works because it has a magical science behind it.

As if someone taught chemistry to people without the background for it, so they invented a form of alchemy that worked, but had a lot of extra steps.

It could be interesting to explore how I might rework the Palladium Fantasy Druid. My inclination would be to keep the lore, the secret language, and the culture, but have them basically be priests with nature-focused magic (I'd keep their emphasis on sacrifice-based magic). I'd also use the druids and Herbalists of Rifts England as a basis for making a different branch of the druids that is less faith-based and more of a "use it as a tool" based. The priest-types would consider the magic-types heretics, and the magic types would consider the priest-types to be superstitious zealots.

This would create a basis for some conflict and intrigue in wilderness/druid communities.