Forums of the Megaverse®

Since I feel rifts would be too much to take in at once I chose to use palladium fantasy to get everyone used to the system.

Some of the players are experienced with other games, which has caused a harder learning curve in some ways then with inexperienced players to be honest.

I have run into a couple issues and would like some advice.

First is best expressed with a example. Wolfen assassin that's anarchist gets hit will love charm from a succubus. And tries to use there alignment as a excuse as to why it doesn't make sense for there character to be in love with them and do there bidding. No amount of explaining that it's magic control seemed to get through ( wasn't asked to suicide or murder so no extra save chance)

The second issue is that enemy's are not necessarily idiots. Obviously some and dumb and easily tricked but some are smart and will do everything they can.
Example the group went to confront some people who knew in advance when and where and brought backup, so they think it was too op. ( Apparently in other games it's all a cakewalk)

Here are a few observations from my end of introducing people to Palladium (Fantasy).

1. Make it very clear that the world scales different in Palladium than in other games.
Unlike Pathfinder 1E, most (all?) versions of D&D, and other games that treat the Player Characters as immediately better than everyone else, "Commoners" can't routinely be killed by house cats in Palladium. Since hand to hand training is optional to a fair number of occupations, high level doesn't necessarily translate to combat prowess, but that doesn't make a character worthless. That older shopkeep may be just the person you need to speak with, because he has some lore/repair skill at a high level, but has never felt the need to get training to do a job that the city guard (and a good locksmith) is doing (protect his business). On the other hand, it can be really embarrassing to find out that the peasant you just backed into a corner with his pitchfork was pressed into service in the militia as a young lad and has since kept up his skill and has basic hand to hand as well as the spears/forks weapon proficiency.

2. In other games, getting flanked (attacked from opposite directions) is bad. Being attacked from outside your range of vision in Palladium is deadly.
Forming a line of battle, fighting back to back, or putting your back to a wall or obstacle don't seem to usually be as important in other games, because it is mostly (in Pathfinder and D&D anyway) a relatively minor increase in the chance you get hit. In Palladium, losing your active defense is devastating, even before you get into the possibility that you may be up against someone that does increased damage when backstabbing you.

2B Animals aren't pushovers either.
One thing I used to do with every new group was start out with some wilderness travel and see if I could entice the players into attacking a pack of wolves or a bunch of boars. Predators especially are quite aware that attacking form multiple directions is a good thing. It also gives a reality check that engaging wild animals in melee is almost always a bad idea. To challenge higher level parties, I will sometimes use summoned animals to "flood the field" to make positioning more important.

3. Magic is different in Palladium, possibly less powerful than in more popular games, but can still wreck your world if you don't respect it.
In D&D/Pathfinder, spell levels mean different things than they do in Palladium. The spells are usually pretty power constrained by level. Low level spells are (almost) always low power, limited use, and may not be used for much later in the game, especially since saving throws difficulty doesn't change much while saving throw bonuses do. In Palladium, most spells scale by the level of the caster and the spell level has more to do with rarity than power level. Saving throw difficulty is based on the level of the caster (and their class casting perks) and saving throw bonuses don't change much over time unless you are playing a caster, spells of any level get more dangerous as time goes on.

There is no better example than the lowly Cloud of Slumber that every wizard starts with (according to the book anyway). It is even more of a fight ending spell with a high level caster than it is with a low level caster, and has been a fun spell for "friendly fire" incidents with new or inattentive players in my experience at any level.

4. Alignment is your character's attitude towards the world, and nothing more.
If people are used to D&D style alignment, they may think alignment plays more of a role than it does in Palladium. Outside of the playing in character xp bonuses and a few circles and wards, alignment and magic don't interact much. Anyone skilled with charms (and wouldn't a succubus be very skilled?) is going to make sure their commands would be reasonable to the target. Just the fact that your character doesn't approve of the being giving the order/suggestion really doesn't mean anything.

On the other hand, I am a big fan of "the world will use the same logic against you that you apply to the world". If the players want charms to be pretty much worthless, then they better not ever want to use any sort of charms/suggestion. I won't have enemy casters open rivers of lava under them unless they start going around doing so. Well, I might if I give them some warning and foreshadowing first...

5. Make as clear as possible the way you envision the world.
I never did run or play in a game using published adventure/campaign material until the last few years with my gaming moving to online instead of in person. In my short experience with published adventure material, a lot of it is written with npcs reacting more like I would expect in a video game. Fighting in room A doesn't necessarily alert anyone in room B. Clearing out buildings 1-3 in a 5 building complex doesn't necessarily cause any concern in buildings 4-5 during the 8+ hours of rest to recover resources, a trip back to town to get more rope, and so on. It seems like published material (at least more recent published material) is written with the intention that you mostly have to be a blithering idiot to not manage to complete it. Or in case of some Paizo content, everything is fairly trivial, except for the occasional encounter that seems designed to kill most of the party with little to no foreshadowing or warning.

Your players may not be used to playing in a world where you need to expect your enemies to be thinking/planning as well. If they aren't used to that, I'm sure it comes as a shock to them when the world actually responds to things they do. If you run your worlds like that, good for you. Just make sure the players know that up front, because it doesn't seem to be the "default" style of game anymore.

Hope you get something useful out of that rambling.

Thanks for the input it's helpful.

Kraynic, those are some excellent notes on the system!
Omnibane, I know what you're going through. This is why I usually use Heroes Unlimited as the introduction to Palladium, as I find that those who are experienced with other systems spend too much time comparing and too little time embracing if they go from one fantasy game to another. Even still, I find that those who play "old school" games are the most willing to play Palladium and see it for what it is. Those who got their start with 5e tend to be the least willing to accept this system.

Father Goose wrote:Kraynic, those are some excellent notes on the system!
Omnibane, I know what you're going through. This is why I usually use Heroes Unlimited as the introduction to Palladium, as I find that those who are experienced with other systems spend too much time comparing and too little time embracing if they go from one fantasy game to another. Even still, I find that those who play "old school" games are the most willing to play Palladium and see it for what it is. Those who got their start with 5e tend to be the least willing to accept this system.

I tend to agree; people accustomed to a game geared around thoughtless instant gratification tend to avoid the "crunchier" early systems. They say older systems didn't "age well", as a cover for intellectual laziness.
That said, once they get used to having active defense and armor acting pretty close to how armor's supposed to work, a lot of them have a hard time going back to the simpler-minded systems.
Palladium's a good compromise between two extremes of fantasy role-play. You have 5E D&D on one end of the spectrum, and Role-master on the other. I've tried both, and despise them for different reasons. The only fantasy game I can think of that I've played to get new players into the hobby and not be too simple or complicated would be Legend of the Five Rings.

Omnibane wrote:Since I feel rifts would be too much to take in at once I chose to use palladium fantasy to get everyone used to the system.

Some of the players are experienced with other games, which has caused a harder learning curve in some ways then with inexperienced players to be honest.

I have run into a couple issues and would like some advice.

You have gotten good advice from several others, I would also bring up that some issues maybe your style of Gamemastering vs what the players are accustom to or expect; particalurly if they have played different game systems under different GMs.

My own style varies tremendously depending on
1) who are my players
2) what tone/genre/feel I want to present
3) am I coming up with all the material myself or running something someone else put together

Especially with the Palladium system covering so many genres....

Although you started your group with Fantasy...a Heroes Unlimited campaign could play like anything from high action-drama to cartoony-slapstick. It depends on if your group is bigger fans of the high action-drama of modern superhero movies ( MCU & DC) or prefers stuff like Deadpool and The Tick. What entertains your players on the TV or movie screen is probably what they want in a gaming session. If eveyone is having a good time they are less inclined to nitpick rules and debate with the GM.

In regards to the second example you gave...while as GM I don't want to give too much away, I will occassionally make comments like "So your character is turning away from the door you are suppose to be watching". Just two weeks ago I had a player have his character walk off a roof to a 60 foot drop, I said "It is a big drop are you sure?", after damage was applied the player was upset. I asked other players if they had heard me say " 60 foot drop" regarding the room description, and two replied "yes". Keeping all players happy at all times is not possible. Some players are more difficult than others. The biggest trick is giving everyone a moment to shine without ruining the game for everyone else.

Omnibane wrote:Since I feel rifts would be too much to take in at once I chose to use palladium fantasy to get everyone used to the system.

Some of the players are experienced with other games, which has caused a harder learning curve in some ways then with inexperienced players to be honest.

I have run into a couple issues and would like some advice.

First is best expressed with a example. Wolfen assassin that's anarchist gets hit will love charm from a succubus. And tries to use there alignment as a excuse as to why it doesn't make sense for there character to be in love with them and do there bidding. No amount of explaining that it's magic control seemed to get through ( wasn't asked to suicide or murder so no extra save chance)

It's magical mind control. Alignment doesn't matter.

The second issue is that enemy's are not necessarily idiots. Obviously some and dumb and easily tricked but some are smart and will do everything they can.
Example the group went to confront some people who knew in advance when and where and brought backup, so they think it was too op. ( Apparently in other games it's all a cakewalk)

Maybe give them time and motivation to prepare similar ambushes, so they get a bit better understanding of what force multipliers are, and how they work.

Edit:
Okay, here's a thought!
Run an adventure for them that's based on Defense of Duffer's Drift.
Let them keep trying until they have a better grasp of strategy and tactics.
(You can get free PDFs of the book lots of places online, if you google)

Kraynic, you said "...most (all?) versions of D&D..."
My reply to that is..."You mean like Pathfinder?"

Borast wrote:Kraynic, you said "...most (all?) versions of D&D..."
My reply to that is..."You mean like Pathfinder?"

You mean D&D 3.P?

I suppose Pathfinder 2E is more of its own thing though (and still treats the world that way as far as I know).