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So... it's been awhile since I've played RIFTS. What are some good OCCs/RCCs to start new players out with and learn the rules?

Truthfully the impact of the players knowledge of RIfts is minimal. The GMs experience is what matters. Players should be guided to the OCCs that best fit the type of character they want to run or what sounds cool. If they are invested in the character they will learn the system in time.

If you are an inexperienced GM with new players I would suggest any OCC or RCC in RUE (Rifts Ultimate Edition, the core book) except the Hatchling Dragon. The players need to learn how magic, psionics, and tech work so might as well get as diverse a group as possible. I suggest RUE OCCs for the reason that they are all pretty well rounded and if players stick to humans or dog boys they can get a good feel for the game.

Just my opinion.

Many characters don't incorporate much in the way of tech subsystems/magic/psionics/class specific subsystems. From the main book, that's basically Crazies, Juicers, Merc Soldiers, Coalition Military, and Scholars&Adventurers. From there one can add complicating elements at whatever place everyone is comfortable with. Having a character pilot Robots or Power Armor is a matter of compiling combat bonuses from a couple of tables, reading a couple of skill descriptions, and checking out different designs. Bionics involves familiarizing oneself with either a few pages of components and/or any of a number of regional-oriented designs strewn throughout the books. Psionics aren't that big of a deal, and could be first introduced through characters being minor or major psychics, and while some magical classes are somewhat complicated Mystics and Ley Line Walkers can be pretty straightforward.

The classes I'd recommend new players avoid are Technowizards and to a lesser extent Dragon Hatchlings, Shifters and Cyber-Knights. All these involve subsystems unique to their class incorporating considerable circumstantial modifiers.

In all honesty, Warshield73 pretty much sums it up.

A good GM is the key, in particular with starting out new players or reintroducing players; as a recently 'reintroduced,' I can attest to this.

For players though, anything RUE (less dragon hatchling; arguments could be made for GB and Robot Pilot, but a good GM can balance this). Otherwise you have a gamut of choice from Men-At-Arms/Warriors, Psionics, Magic, Scholars/Adventurers (some of my favorites), as well as the Coalition States' classes. All work well for checking out the various game mechanics and how they may have seen some nuanced changes since 1st edition.

I mostly agree with WS...if you specifically want to play the Rifts game.

And The same suggestion works for each of the PB games, in that to choose something from that game's core book would be the best way to intro new players to that game. But also when intruding them to the game, only use the rules found in the core book till they are settled into playing the game.

The primary concern is the theme of the campaign and the nature of the other characters. As for a more concrete piece of advice, make sure they're not playing an inferior version of an existing player character. A good example of that is if the team already has a Mega-Juicer it's probably in the best interest of a new player to not play a standard juicer.

Another piece of advice, that may be controversial, as it almost undermines one of the big themes of the game but ... Find a natural MD being with regeneration, with some natural attacks. Not being able to heal and counting bullets can be daunting for new players.

Chuck McDaniel wrote:So... it's been awhile since I've played RIFTS. What are some good OCCs/RCCs to start new players out with and learn the rules?

Have them roll up a Coalition squad, on a S&D mission against supernatural foes who have been preying on a CS community.

1. The setting has more depth when players are able to see both sides. Since the CS are Bad Guys in the setting, I always liked for my players to occasionally walk a mile in some CS boots.
2. Palladium characters are already more complicated than many people are used to, and every factor beyond "mundane human" makes things even more complicated. Mages, psychics, dragons, etc., even borgs, compound character creation by increasing options and complexity, which isn't usually what one wants when one is first learning the rules.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Have them roll up a Coalition squad, on a S&D mission against supernatural foes who have been preying on a CS community.

1. The setting has more depth when players are able to see both sides. Since the CS are Bad Guys in the setting, I always liked for my players to occasionally walk a mile in some CS boots.

I have wanted to run a campaign like this for decades. I tried to get my original player group to run a short CS campaign but they had no interest. I tried again when CS WC came out thinking that with all those new OCCs and vehicles they might want to try some but no. To date I have only ever had 2 players even run CS OCCs.

If you can get your players to do this I highly recommend it and would be a little jealous.

Killer Cyborg wrote:2. Palladium characters are already more complicated than many people are used to, and every factor beyond "mundane human" makes things even more complicated. Mages, psychics, dragons, etc., even borgs, compound character creation by increasing options and complexity, which isn't usually what one wants when one is first learning the rules.

Have to disagree with this. All of these problems are actually the selling point of Rifts. What I recommend instead is to allow players to retcon their characters between adventures over a set period of time or a set number of times. For me I tend to say they can make changes over the first two "episodes" which is usually 5 or 6 game sessions.

In the case of the borg I usually have a player start with the "Red" borg from Triax which is a common type and has just tons of features. As the games progresses the player can replace ot add features (if he has construction money left) and even change a few skills to make better use of those features.

Same for mages but for them it is mainly about changing skills and spells occasionally equipment.

Just a different approach.

Whatever they want.
Seriously.
Maybe have them play resistance against the Naz... erm, AntiF... erm, CS campaign. That's generally along the lines of most peoples' morals, and you can make some friends and enemies among the various d-bee, human, and mixed communities. That's how I got my start with the game, anyway. My first character was a 3rd generation Elf Glitter-Boy.

To me, I try to stear new players towards Headhunters. Easy way to learn the system.

New players lack knowledge in the game mechanics and the setting. Thus, I suggest going with classes with simple mechanics who are aligned with a single, easy-to-understand faction. Mechanically simple classes tend to be skill-based and tech-based. Setting-simple classes tend to be easy for players to understand and empathize with.

Starting with a Coalition group can be difficult for "punch a Nazi" players who have issues empathizing with fascists, but it's a good way to start off otherwise. If you want to sidestep that issue, you could start with soldiers of another nation like the NGR or Free Quebec. Mercenary outfits can be good places to start for new players, too, and they're flexible enough for players to bring in other classes as they get more comfortable with the mechanics.

(SHIFTY) wrote:To me, I try to stear new players towards Headhunters. Easy way to learn the system.

Headhunters can be a great start. From the RMB, you might also go with Glitter Boys or Borgs. Wilderness Scouts and Operators can also be popular... not on par with the real heavy hitters, but straightforward mechanics and a good feel for the system.

In addition to C.S. classes and the Headhunter, I'd also suggest Combat Cyborg, Merc Soldier, Robot Pilot, Wilderness Scout, Juicer, City Rat, Operator, Cyber-Doc, and Glitter Boy Pilot for a first Rifts character.

RUE characters that are better suited to being second characters: Rogue scholars (need to understand the setting), Cyber-Knights (mechanics are a mess), and most psychics/men of magic, to include Dragon Hatchlings.

I would recommend against ever playing the Elemental Fusionist (poorly-defined class with no role in parties or the setting), Body Fixer (skill-based SDC healing in an MDC world is lame and outclassed by magic/psionics), or Crazy (neat concept, but it's the Kender of Rifts: a license to disrupt the game).

I stand by my earlier comment. My biggest mistake as a beginning Rift GM in high school was to try and steer my players towards OCCs that felt familiar (From WE Star Wars or TMNT or Robtech 1e) so it would be easier to run. This is a game and what is most important is they take a class that appeals to them, a character they want to play week after week and will get them into the setting.

If a new player runs a Hatchling Dragon is he going to use it perfectly, no he will forget psionics or not understand a spell but he will learn and so will the other players. If a player runs a Cyber-Knight will she understand all the messy mechanics right away, no but as she does the other players will as well.

Hotrod wrote:In addition to C.S. classes and the Headhunter, I'd also suggest Combat Cyborg, Merc Soldier, Robot Pilot, Wilderness Scout, Juicer, City Rat, Operator, Cyber-Doc, and Glitter Boy Pilot for a first Rifts character.

RUE characters that are better suited to being second characters: Rogue scholars (need to understand the setting), Cyber-Knights (mechanics are a mess), and most psychics/men of magic, to include Dragon Hatchlings.

I would recommend against ever playing the Elemental Fusionist (poorly-defined class with no role in parties or the setting), Body Fixer (skill-based SDC healing in an MDC world is lame and outclassed by magic/psionics), or Crazy (neat concept, but it's the Kender of Rifts: a license to disrupt the game).

I have had this argument too many times to count but a Body Fixer in the group is just one more path to adventure like an operator or rogue scholar. If you have one in the group the GM can add all sorts of neat story ideas like biological weapons or intelligent viruses that no other OCC. A psychic or mage can heal a broken bone or even remove an appendix with the right powers but they are helpless against something like radiation poisoning or a contagious virus. Do you have to put those things in your campaign, no. But if you have a body fixer you can.

Warshield73 wrote:I stand by my earlier comment. My biggest mistake as a beginning Rift GM in high school was to try and steer my players towards OCCs that felt familiar (From WE Star Wars or TMNT or Robtech 1e) so it would be easier to run. This is a game and what is most important is they take a class that appeals to them, a character they want to play week after week and will get them into the setting.

If a new player runs a Hatchling Dragon is he going to use it perfectly, no he will forget psionics or not understand a spell but he will learn and so will the other players. If a player runs a Cyber-Knight will she understand all the messy mechanics right away, no but as she does the other players will as well.

Hotrod wrote:In addition to C.S. classes and the Headhunter, I'd also suggest Combat Cyborg, Merc Soldier, Robot Pilot, Wilderness Scout, Juicer, City Rat, Operator, Cyber-Doc, and Glitter Boy Pilot for a first Rifts character.

RUE characters that are better suited to being second characters: Rogue scholars (need to understand the setting), Cyber-Knights (mechanics are a mess), and most psychics/men of magic, to include Dragon Hatchlings.

I would recommend against ever playing the Elemental Fusionist (poorly-defined class with no role in parties or the setting), Body Fixer (skill-based SDC healing in an MDC world is lame and outclassed by magic/psionics), or Crazy (neat concept, but it's the Kender of Rifts: a license to disrupt the game).

I have had this argument too many times to count but a Body Fixer in the group is just one more path to adventure like an operator or rogue scholar. If you have one in the group the GM can add all sorts of neat story ideas like biological weapons or intelligent viruses that no other OCC. A psychic or mage can heal a broken bone or even remove an appendix with the right powers but they are helpless against something like radiation poisoning or a contagious virus. Do you have to put those things in your campaign, no. But if you have a body fixer you can.

It’s like having Aquaman in the Superfriends. Sure, a GM can throw in some content specifically for one character and create new content and house rules to keep a body fixer relevant, but that’s cutting against the grain. The setting and game are not well suited for people to play doctor. There’s a lot more in the game to support characters who are operators and rogue scholars.

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I stand by my earlier comment. My biggest mistake as a beginning Rift GM in high school was to try and steer my players towards OCCs that felt familiar (From WE Star Wars or TMNT or Robtech 1e) so it would be easier to run. This is a game and what is most important is they take a class that appeals to them, a character they want to play week after week and will get them into the setting.

If a new player runs a Hatchling Dragon is he going to use it perfectly, no he will forget psionics or not understand a spell but he will learn and so will the other players. If a player runs a Cyber-Knight will she understand all the messy mechanics right away, no but as she does the other players will as well.

Hotrod wrote:In addition to C.S. classes and the Headhunter, I'd also suggest Combat Cyborg, Merc Soldier, Robot Pilot, Wilderness Scout, Juicer, City Rat, Operator, Cyber-Doc, and Glitter Boy Pilot for a first Rifts character.

RUE characters that are better suited to being second characters: Rogue scholars (need to understand the setting), Cyber-Knights (mechanics are a mess), and most psychics/men of magic, to include Dragon Hatchlings.

I would recommend against ever playing the Elemental Fusionist (poorly-defined class with no role in parties or the setting), Body Fixer (skill-based SDC healing in an MDC world is lame and outclassed by magic/psionics), or Crazy (neat concept, but it's the Kender of Rifts: a license to disrupt the game).

I have had this argument too many times to count but a Body Fixer in the group is just one more path to adventure like an operator or rogue scholar. If you have one in the group the GM can add all sorts of neat story ideas like biological weapons or intelligent viruses that no other OCC. A psychic or mage can heal a broken bone or even remove an appendix with the right powers but they are helpless against something like radiation poisoning or a contagious virus. Do you have to put those things in your campaign, no. But if you have a body fixer you can.

It’s like having Aquaman in the Superfriends. Sure, a GM can throw in some content specifically for one character and create new content and house rules to keep a body fixer relevant, but that’s cutting against the grain. The setting and game are not well suited for people to play doctor. There’s a lot more in the game to support characters who are operators and rogue scholars.

Every OCC is like having Aquaman on the team. If you have mech pilots then you have to contrive some opportunity for them to get repairs and reloads and don't get me started on the magic OCCs. Those players always want some way to acquire new spells.

Seriously operators are great characters but rogue scholars? Body Doc can do anything they can while performing surgery in a power armor, which the Rogue Scholar can't use. You could make all the same arguements against a city rat or wilderness scout that you can make against the body doc accept again the body doc can use power armor and they can't.

Warshield73 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I stand by my earlier comment. My biggest mistake as a beginning Rift GM in high school was to try and steer my players towards OCCs that felt familiar (From WE Star Wars or TMNT or Robtech 1e) so it would be easier to run. This is a game and what is most important is they take a class that appeals to them, a character they want to play week after week and will get them into the setting.

If a new player runs a Hatchling Dragon is he going to use it perfectly, no he will forget psionics or not understand a spell but he will learn and so will the other players. If a player runs a Cyber-Knight will she understand all the messy mechanics right away, no but as she does the other players will as well.

Hotrod wrote:In addition to C.S. classes and the Headhunter, I'd also suggest Combat Cyborg, Merc Soldier, Robot Pilot, Wilderness Scout, Juicer, City Rat, Operator, Cyber-Doc, and Glitter Boy Pilot for a first Rifts character.

RUE characters that are better suited to being second characters: Rogue scholars (need to understand the setting), Cyber-Knights (mechanics are a mess), and most psychics/men of magic, to include Dragon Hatchlings.

I would recommend against ever playing the Elemental Fusionist (poorly-defined class with no role in parties or the setting), Body Fixer (skill-based SDC healing in an MDC world is lame and outclassed by magic/psionics), or Crazy (neat concept, but it's the Kender of Rifts: a license to disrupt the game).

I have had this argument too many times to count but a Body Fixer in the group is just one more path to adventure like an operator or rogue scholar. If you have one in the group the GM can add all sorts of neat story ideas like biological weapons or intelligent viruses that no other OCC. A psychic or mage can heal a broken bone or even remove an appendix with the right powers but they are helpless against something like radiation poisoning or a contagious virus. Do you have to put those things in your campaign, no. But if you have a body fixer you can.

It’s like having Aquaman in the Superfriends. Sure, a GM can throw in some content specifically for one character and create new content and house rules to keep a body fixer relevant, but that’s cutting against the grain. The setting and game are not well suited for people to play doctor. There’s a lot more in the game to support characters who are operators and rogue scholars.

Every OCC is like having Aquaman on the team. If you have mech pilots then you have to contrive some opportunity for them to get repairs and reloads and don't get me started on the magic OCCs. Those players always want some way to acquire new spells.

Seriously operators are great characters but rogue scholars? Body Doc can do anything they can while performing surgery in a power armor, which the Rogue Scholar can't use. You could make all the same arguements against a city rat or wilderness scout that you can make against the body doc accept again the body doc can use power armor and they can't.

Ummm.... what?
How the hell is someone going to perform surgery in a power armor? Unlikely even in regular body armor; there'd at least be a stiff penalty for regular armor.

Hotrod wrote:In addition to C.S. classes and the Headhunter, I'd also suggest Combat Cyborg, Merc Soldier, Robot Pilot, Wilderness Scout, Juicer, City Rat, Operator, Cyber-Doc, and Glitter Boy Pilot for a first Rifts character.

RUE characters that are better suited to being second characters: Rogue scholars (need to understand the setting), Cyber-Knights (mechanics are a mess), and most psychics/men of magic, to include Dragon Hatchlings.

I would recommend against ever playing the Elemental Fusionist (poorly-defined class with no role in parties or the setting), Body Fixer (skill-based SDC healing in an MDC world is lame and outclassed by magic/psionics), or Crazy (neat concept, but it's the Kender of Rifts: a license to disrupt the game).

Funny, I've never found kender to be especially disruptive; I can think of characters that are at least as bad as a kender, Crazy, or Malkavian... it depends on the player.

Warshield73 wrote:Every OCC is like having Aquaman on the team. If you have mech pilots then you have to contrive some opportunity for them to get repairs and reloads and don't get me started on the magic OCCs. Those players always want some way to acquire new spells.

Seriously operators are great characters but rogue scholars? Body Doc can do anything they can while performing surgery in a power armor, which the Rogue Scholar can't use. You could make all the same arguements against a city rat or wilderness scout that you can make against the body doc accept again the body doc can use power armor and they can't.

It's a tech-rich setting. It's a "buried knowledge of the past/present" setting. It's a "megacities" setting. It's a "wilderness" setting. It's not an "are you allergic to shellfish?" setting. Damage is measured in points and limbs blown off and people going bonkers, not in mTBI or gangrene. If you need serious medical attention that requires surgery, you apply an IRMSS or you get someone with psychic diagnosis and surgery to fix it.

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:Every OCC is like having Aquaman on the team. If you have mech pilots then you have to contrive some opportunity for them to get repairs and reloads and don't get me started on the magic OCCs. Those players always want some way to acquire new spells.

Seriously operators are great characters but rogue scholars? Body Doc can do anything they can while performing surgery in a power armor, which the Rogue Scholar can't use. You could make all the same arguements against a city rat or wilderness scout that you can make against the body doc accept again the body doc can use power armor and they can't.

It's a tech-rich setting. It's a "buried knowledge of the past/present" setting. It's a "megacities" setting. It's a "wilderness" setting. It's not an "are you allergic to shellfish?" setting. Damage is measured in points and limbs blown off and people going bonkers, not in mTBI or gangrene. If you need serious medical attention that requires surgery, you apply an IRMSS or you get someone with psychic diagnosis and surgery to fix it.

And if you don't have access to those you go to a Body Fixer.
Different GMs actually do throw some realism into their games, to a greater or lesser degree.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:Every OCC is like having Aquaman on the team. If you have mech pilots then you have to contrive some opportunity for them to get repairs and reloads and don't get me started on the magic OCCs. Those players always want some way to acquire new spells.

Seriously operators are great characters but rogue scholars? Body Doc can do anything they can while performing surgery in a power armor, which the Rogue Scholar can't use. You could make all the same arguements against a city rat or wilderness scout that you can make against the body doc accept again the body doc can use power armor and they can't.

It's a tech-rich setting. It's a "buried knowledge of the past/present" setting. It's a "megacities" setting. It's a "wilderness" setting. It's not an "are you allergic to shellfish?" setting. Damage is measured in points and limbs blown off and people going bonkers, not in mTBI or gangrene. If you need serious medical attention that requires surgery, you apply an IRMSS or you get someone with psychic diagnosis and surgery to fix it.

And if you don't have access to those you go to a Body Fixer.
Different GMs actually do throw some realism into their games, to a greater or lesser degree.

That’s cool with me; I just haven’t seen it done. Ever. Not have I ever seen anyone play a body fixer. Healing skill mechanics in the game are sparse and largely bypassed by tech, magic, and psionics, and even then, they’re an afterthought, a box to be checked rather than a significant and plot-changing action.

Fenris2020 wrote:Funny, I've never found kender to be especially disruptive; I can think of characters that are at least as bad as a kender, Crazy, or Malkavian... it depends on the player.

Yes, but Kenders and Crazies are disruptive by design. I accept the theoretical possibility of a well played Crazy being a key part of a group and a compelling presence. In practice, every player I ever saw play a Crazy used the class as a free license to act like a troll.. There are plenty of trolls who play other classes and can be just as bad, but the game encourages and legitimizes disruptive behavior for this class.

The same goes for Kenders.

-- MOD EDIT - Link removed for violating the forum's profanity rules. Mack --

Fenris2020 wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I stand by my earlier comment. My biggest mistake as a beginning Rift GM in high school was to try and steer my players towards OCCs that felt familiar (From WE Star Wars or TMNT or Robtech 1e) so it would be easier to run. This is a game and what is most important is they take a class that appeals to them, a character they want to play week after week and will get them into the setting.

If a new player runs a Hatchling Dragon is he going to use it perfectly, no he will forget psionics or not understand a spell but he will learn and so will the other players. If a player runs a Cyber-Knight will she understand all the messy mechanics right away, no but as she does the other players will as well.

Hotrod wrote:In addition to C.S. classes and the Headhunter, I'd also suggest Combat Cyborg, Merc Soldier, Robot Pilot, Wilderness Scout, Juicer, City Rat, Operator, Cyber-Doc, and Glitter Boy Pilot for a first Rifts character.

RUE characters that are better suited to being second characters: Rogue scholars (need to understand the setting), Cyber-Knights (mechanics are a mess), and most psychics/men of magic, to include Dragon Hatchlings.

I would recommend against ever playing the Elemental Fusionist (poorly-defined class with no role in parties or the setting), Body Fixer (skill-based SDC healing in an MDC world is lame and outclassed by magic/psionics), or Crazy (neat concept, but it's the Kender of Rifts: a license to disrupt the game).

I have had this argument too many times to count but a Body Fixer in the group is just one more path to adventure like an operator or rogue scholar. If you have one in the group the GM can add all sorts of neat story ideas like biological weapons or intelligent viruses that no other OCC. A psychic or mage can heal a broken bone or even remove an appendix with the right powers but they are helpless against something like radiation poisoning or a contagious virus. Do you have to put those things in your campaign, no. But if you have a body fixer you can.

It’s like having Aquaman in the Superfriends. Sure, a GM can throw in some content specifically for one character and create new content and house rules to keep a body fixer relevant, but that’s cutting against the grain. The setting and game are not well suited for people to play doctor. There’s a lot more in the game to support characters who are operators and rogue scholars.

Every OCC is like having Aquaman on the team. If you have mech pilots then you have to contrive some opportunity for them to get repairs and reloads and don't get me started on the magic OCCs. Those players always want some way to acquire new spells.

Seriously operators are great characters but rogue scholars? Body Doc can do anything they can while performing surgery in a power armor, which the Rogue Scholar can't use. You could make all the same arguements against a city rat or wilderness scout that you can make against the body doc accept again the body doc can use power armor and they can't.

Ummm.... what?
How the hell is someone going to perform surgery in a power armor? Unlikely even in regular body armor; there'd at least be a stiff penalty for regular armor.

I was clearly using hyperbole on the old Ginger Rogers line about "backwards and in high heels". The body doc can get most of the skills the Rogue Scholar can, can perform surgery, and can pilot a power armor were the RS can not.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:In addition to C.S. classes and the Headhunter, I'd also suggest Combat Cyborg, Merc Soldier, Robot Pilot, Wilderness Scout, Juicer, City Rat, Operator, Cyber-Doc, and Glitter Boy Pilot for a first Rifts character.

RUE characters that are better suited to being second characters: Rogue scholars (need to understand the setting), Cyber-Knights (mechanics are a mess), and most psychics/men of magic, to include Dragon Hatchlings.

I would recommend against ever playing the Elemental Fusionist (poorly-defined class with no role in parties or the setting), Body Fixer (skill-based SDC healing in an MDC world is lame and outclassed by magic/psionics), or Crazy (neat concept, but it's the Kender of Rifts: a license to disrupt the game).

Funny, I've never found kender to be especially disruptive; I can think of characters that are at least as bad as a kender, Crazy, or Malkavian... it depends on the player.

I had a player who played a Hatchling Dragon and a Phase World Quatoria and he was more disruptive then most people who have played Crazies. It was fun disruption but still. It all depends on the player.

Hotrod wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:Every OCC is like having Aquaman on the team. If you have mech pilots then you have to contrive some opportunity for them to get repairs and reloads and don't get me started on the magic OCCs. Those players always want some way to acquire new spells.

Seriously operators are great characters but rogue scholars? Body Doc can do anything they can while performing surgery in a power armor, which the Rogue Scholar can't use. You could make all the same arguements against a city rat or wilderness scout that you can make against the body doc accept again the body doc can use power armor and they can't.

It's a tech-rich setting. It's a "buried knowledge of the past/present" setting. It's a "megacities" setting. It's a "wilderness" setting. It's not an "are you allergic to shellfish?" setting. Damage is measured in points and limbs blown off and people going bonkers, not in mTBI or gangrene. If you need serious medical attention that requires surgery, you apply an IRMSS or you get someone with psychic diagnosis and surgery to fix it.

And if you don't have access to those you go to a Body Fixer.
Different GMs actually do throw some realism into their games, to a greater or lesser degree.

That’s cool with me; I just haven’t seen it done. Ever. Not have I ever seen anyone play a body fixer. Healing skill mechanics in the game are sparse and largely bypassed by tech, magic, and psionics, and even then, they’re an afterthought, a box to be checked rather than a significant and plot-changing action.

As was already covered psionics and magic can not heal everything and IRMSS and RMKs are not fix it all and work best when used by people with medical skills. As for never seeing one played I have never had a player choose one either but that's true of a Borg, Merc Soldier, Shifter, and Burster. All I'm saying is that they are not useless and if a player runs one there they are likely to be more useful than many other OCCs and can open up adventures just like any other OCC.

I did play in a game at POH where all the characters where S&As and the two most effective characters in the game where the Rogue Scientist and the Body Doc. I played the Rogue Scholar and I could do some but was useless in combat although I did better than the city rat.

When it comes to Body Fixers, there could be some kind of problem with a new player choosing that OCC due to experience with other systems where medicine and bandages can directly heal hit point damage.
But as long as they understand that they can't do THAT, I don't see much problem.

Simon on Firefly fit in pretty well with the rest of the crew after a bit, and not everything he did revolved around the fact that he was a doctor, for example.
(I tend to see Firefly as a pretty good model for running Rifts, btw! )
Doc Reid is a Cyberdoc... but he spends most of his time killing vampires, and not by implanting cybernetics in them.
He could have just as easily have been a Body Fixer, although he wouldn't start off with the cool cybernetics.

One of the things that made me switch from AD&D2E to Rifts back in the day was that pretty much ANYBODY could put on armor, grab a gun, and be a useful member of a team during combat.
Anybody could be stealthy, not just Rogues, Rangers, and Ninjas.
Anybody could climb walls, not just Rogues.
Mages weren't stuck wearing robes and chucking darts or whacking people with a staff.
It always seemed a LOT more realistic than the narrowly-focused characters of D&D and many other games; your occupation didn't define everything about you.
That's a big plus for me.
So as long as the player understands how Body Fixers work in Rifts, let them play one. Maybe they just want to be a knife-fighting expert, and they want that +2 to damage.
Plots for Body Fixers don't have to be about medicine; it could just as easily be about the fact that Body Fixers are criminals in the eyes of the CS, and most of the character's actions and adventures might come from being a Fugitive, kind of like Dr. Richard Kimble.


The starting skills of a Body Fixer include(d) (RMB 72) :
Medical Doctor: You get to start off as an MD, and it only costs one skill slot? Not a bad thing to have in your back pocked in case it comes up.
Biology: Could well be useful for determining weak spots on various life forms, which could come in handy for combat in the same sort of ways that Demon & Monster Lore can.
Pathology: Another good thing to have in your back pocket, in case a GM decides to run an Andromeda Strain adventure (as I did).
Chemistry: Handy skill for making all sorts of things from bombs to poisons to acids to fireworks to who knows what? Lots of practical applications, and also potentially great if you wander into a villain's laboratory or something.
Then there are some good well-rounding skills like math, literacy, an extra language, pilot auto, Athletics, Body Building, and WP Knife. These are all pretty solid for any character to have.
AND you can take HTH: Assassin, which isn't true of all classes, and it's great in combat after 2nd level. RAW, your Body Fixer wouldn't even have to be evil; that disclaimer isn't in their text, even though it's there for many or most other OCCs.
With Other Skills, they start with a good number (12), and they get up to 7 more skills as they level up. Their skill selection is also pretty versatile (although it sucks they can't take Rogue skills, since part of their whole thing is that they're hunted by the CS, and are therefore outlaws).

Basically, Body Fixers--like other scholars and adventurers--are skill monkeys, and that makes them very versatile, able to be customized in all kinds of different directions.
I made a N&S Dreamer Gizmoteer once, because I wanted a character with LOTS of skills, and gizmoteering isn't exactly bad to have on one's back pocket, even IF every possible skill that could be spent on WPs, Physical skills. For a martial art, I took Moo Gi Gong, which provided WPs for all ancient weapons, paired.
Even though he my character's CLASS was basically science nerd, I used that class to create a combat monster who could us ANY weapon other than blackpowder and Siege Weapons (he might have picked those up later), who had a PS of 32, PE and PP out the wazoo.
And to spice things up, I also made him a Compulsive Liar of Miscreant alignment.
Not one single adventure he ever went on was focused on Gizmoteering. Mostly he ran around killing things with paired vibro claws, or shooting the hell out of them.
Skill Monkey are incredibly versatile, and character class doesn't need to define much about a character at all in Palladium's games.

PLUS, different people just want different backstories, and there are any number of backstories that would make choosing a Body Fixer a perfect (or at least good) choice.

(Now, I wouldn't say that Body Fixers are better than Rogue Scholars over all; RCs have the most skills in the RMB, IIRC, and they're even more versatile than Body Fixers overall... but that doesn't mean that they're the right choice for every character concept. Many OCCs in Rifts are basically just "this is your day job when you're not out adventuring.")

Oh, and here's another idea:
Maybe you pick Body Fixer because you specifically want a medical background, not to be necessarily USED, but to assist with the character's tragic backstory of having a loved one with a medical condition that he was desperately searching for ways to cure, and his adventuring motivation is specifically finding McGuffins to save their loved one.
Kind of like Mr. Freeze.

All good points. Ok, my mind is changed, and I will put Body Fixers into the same category as Rogue Scientists: a second-rate skill monkey class with a distinct background flavor. I withdraw the recommendation to never play it.

My recommendation to never use Elemental fusionists or Crazies remains.

Just as a comment on the previous post, I wouldn't say that Rogue Scientists are second-rate. By dint of number and variety of skills available they're really only comparable in their role by niche classes like the Lemurian Experimenter and Geo-Front Whack Job.

My recommendation would be limit the options to the main rule book and maybe a specific world book that you are going to start your campaign that seems appropriate. The biggest issue I have ran into is if you let people pick from everything they get chose paralysis.

Hotrod wrote:All good points. Ok, my mind is changed, and I will put Body Fixers into the same category as Rogue Scientists: a second-rate skill monkey class with a distinct background flavor. I withdraw the recommendation to never play it.

My recommendation to never use Elemental fusionists or Crazies remains.

Fusionists are actually pretty fun if you want to actually do a type of blaster spell caster. Their options are kinda limited but they are super efficient at what they do. Having on demand MDC protection without armor needed ability to do reasonable damage for a tiny amount of PPE means they are viable. They are far stronger than the scholar classes and in a lot of ways still stronger than most psychics and non power armor/robot driving soldier type occ.

They are one of the OCC you could drop somewhere in their underwear and they would still be at almost full strength. They can wear natural MDC crafted armor which combined with their various MDC options makes them very durable with good battlefield endurance.

They also eventually can gain access to some warlock spells. The level access isn't that high but warlock spells are PACKED with strong combat stuff at low spell level.

Mark Hall wrote:

(SHIFTY) wrote:To me, I try to stear new players towards Headhunters. Easy way to learn the system.

Headhunters can be a great start. From the RMB, you might also go with Glitter Boys or Borgs. Wilderness Scouts and Operators can also be popular... not on par with the real heavy hitters, but straightforward mechanics and a good feel for the system.

Head hunters are a great tech starter class. Lots of access to moderate amounts of bionics/cybernetics to deck you out make you physically durable good access to a lot of tech toys. They can if I recall correctly get skills to pilot robot/power armor so pretty much if it is tech toys you can probably make use of it.

Hotrod wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:Funny, I've never found kender to be especially disruptive; I can think of characters that are at least as bad as a kender, Crazy, or Malkavian... it depends on the player.

Yes, but Kenders and Crazies are disruptive by design. I accept the theoretical possibility of a well played Crazy being a key part of a group and a compelling presence. In practice, every player I ever saw play a Crazy used the class as a free license to act like a troll.. There are plenty of trolls who play other classes and can be just as bad, but the game encourages and legitimizes disruptive behavior for this class.

The same goes for Kenders.

-- MOD EDIT - Link removed for violating the forum's profanity rules. Mack --

I've had kender in my groups since... well for a long time. I started with 2nd ed AD&D when I was a kid, and the girls in the group who didn't play elves played kender, even in worlds where kender weren't native (planar gates happen I guess). Maybe it's a difference between how guys and girls play, but the kender characters' antics were generally fun. In fact, they were pretty close to the kender characters in the Dragonlance novels.

As for Crazies, the two most disruptive I've seen were one who was a serial killer along the lines of Jack the Ripper; cool concept I suppose if you're into that sort of thing, but caused the party too many problems and we had to deal with him after our characters found out who/ what he was. The other was kind of an omniscient GMPC based off of the Shadowrun Harlequin. We killed him after the third encounter. That GM was really ticked.

Start them CS grunts to learn the ropes, hopefully they organically go rogue as you throw them into more and more inhumane situations and then let them "multi class" (really just change their classes). Of course they'd all still be human though...

Zer0 Kay wrote:Start them CS grunts to learn the ropes, hopefully they organically go rogue as you throw them into more and more inhumane situations and then let them "multi class" (really just change their classes). Of course they'd all still be human though...

Makes me think you're a Gygax fan.
What is it about some GMs that they want everyone to play humans when other options are available?

Fenris2020 wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Start them CS grunts to learn the ropes, hopefully they organically go rogue as you throw them into more and more inhumane situations and then let them "multi class" (really just change their classes). Of course they'd all still be human though...

Makes me think you're a Gygax fan.
What is it about some GMs that they want everyone to play humans when other options are available?

with palladium there's a LOT of alien RCCs that are wildly out of balance with an otherwise human group, and a good tactic with new players of any tabletop RPG is to keep everyone about even powerwise. keeps the GM from having to spend too much time keeping things fair for everyone by focusing on mr. special and leaving the others feeling left out.

Orin J. wrote:with palladium there's a LOT of alien RCCs that are wildly out of balance with an otherwise human group, and a good tactic with new players of any tabletop RPG is to keep everyone about even powerwise. keeps the GM from having to spend too much time keeping things fair for everyone by focusing on mr. special and leaving the others feeling left out.

Again I really have to disagree. The best thing that happened to me as a new GM was when players took magic, psi and non-human characters that forced me to learn the system. But, beyond that gaming is supposed to be personal, players should get to have some flexibility in what they play. Sure it's fine to say no godlings but a blanket no non-humans is just too much.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:<snip>

Makes me think you're a Gygax fan.
What is it about some GMs that they want everyone to play humans when other options are available?

<shrug> Other side of the coin: What is it with players that always want to play other races when the GM has a perfectly reasonable campaign starting with human characters?

To be fair, even an all-human first level GB, Juicer and City Rat walking into a bar will have wildly different possible outcomes than an open field engagement at 1000 meters. As a "Session 0" or introductory campaign, there is nothing wrong giving players all human characters (from all CS/tech/magic/psionic to a melange of all types) to form a baseline; run a couple of full sessions and let players pick and choose from the variety aisles there. The GM just needs to ensure they present the various parts of role-playing in Rifts that might not be pedantically labelled as hack-and-slash; add spice to flavour further adventures and have fun.

After that, you do you.

desrocfc wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:<snip>

Makes me think you're a Gygax fan.
What is it about some GMs that they want everyone to play humans when other options are available?

<shrug> Other side of the coin: What is it with players that always want to play other races when the GM has a perfectly reasonable campaign starting with human characters?

To be fair, even an all-human first level GB, Juicer and City Rat walking into a bar will have wildly different possible outcomes than an open field engagement at 1000 meters. As a "Session 0" or introductory campaign, there is nothing wrong giving players all human characters (from all CS/tech/magic/psionic to a melange of all types) to form a baseline; run a couple of full sessions and let players pick and choose from the variety aisles there. The GM just needs to ensure they present the various parts of role-playing in Rifts that might not be pedantically labelled as hack-and-slash; add spice to flavour further adventures and have fun.

After that, you do you.

It's still fantasy role-play. If everyone wants to play humans, sure; if not, I tend not to make arbitrary limitations.
If I wanted to play a humans-only game I'd run Cyberpunk: 2020 or something.

CS doesn’t have to be human.
Dog Boys, other mutant animal,Psi-Stalkers, Borgs, even experimental AI Bots are possible.

But in general, it’s easier to learn the basics of a new system and setting by starting with something the players are familiar with, so they don’t have to sift through a bunch of unfamiliar powers every time their init comes up.

It’s not a big deal either way, but it makes things a bit smoother.

Killer Cyborg wrote:CS doesn’t have to be human.
Dog Boys, other mutant animal,Psi-Stalkers, Borgs, even experimental AI Bots are possible.

But in general, it’s easier to learn the basics of a new system and setting by starting with something the players are familiar with, so they don’t have to sift through a bunch of unfamiliar powers every time their init comes up.

It’s not a big deal either way, but it makes things a bit smoother.

Human Borgs are still human; they don't become another race.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:CS doesn’t have to be human.
Dog Boys, other mutant animal,Psi-Stalkers, Borgs, even experimental AI Bots are possible.

But in general, it’s easier to learn the basics of a new system and setting by starting with something the players are familiar with, so they don’t have to sift through a bunch of unfamiliar powers every time their init comes up.

It’s not a big deal either way, but it makes things a bit smoother.

Human Borgs are still human; they don't become another race.

Technically, sure.
But for all practical purposes, they're a different thing. They become MDC beings with all sorts of powers that humans don't have, and they even lose some abilities that humans DO have.

Fenris2020 wrote:It's still fantasy role-play. If everyone wants to play humans, sure; if not, I tend not to make arbitrary limitations.
If I wanted to play a humans-only game I'd run Cyberpunk: 2020 or something.

So, like, you refuse to ever participate in a humans-only adventure unless you're playing Cyberpunk 2020....?
Seems weird to me.

The use of the word race in RPGs is weirdly loaded, and neither all that accurate nor useful. A full conversion cyborg might still share some DNA with their parents, but they are a fundamentally different sort of being. Comparing a NGR soldier using M.O.M. transmission of intelligence/Lunar VRRDS pilot with a NGR brain transplant or someone reading a magic scroll of Transference of Essence&Intellect is a full-on Ship of Theseus, where one's humanity stops being defined as biology and is only continuity of experience. Sticking with Tolkein-era terminology for that would be shortsighted even if we we weren't frequently using it to detail other people as always-evil monsters that it's ok to murder due to their subhuman savagery.

It can be cool to have a fish out of water game where everyone's character begins being similar before new options get introduced. It can be cool to play to Rifts' fantasy kitchen sink elements. One is probably a little better suited to introducing new players to skill checks and idiosyncratic combat mechanics, but likely not by as much as some are making it out to be.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Start them CS grunts to learn the ropes, hopefully they organically go rogue as you throw them into more and more inhumane situations and then let them "multi class" (really just change their classes). Of course they'd all still be human though...

Makes me think you're a Gygax fan.
What is it about some GMs that they want everyone to play humans when other options are available?

He wants beginner learning fodder. All my recent games have been with everyone being Nightspawn, just before their becoming so they all think their humans and end up being very not.

Killer Cyborg wrote:CS doesn’t have to be human.
Dog Boys, other mutant animal,Psi-Stalkers, Borgs, even experimental AI Bots are possible.

But in general, it’s easier to learn the basics of a new system and setting by starting with something the players are familiar with, so they don’t have to sift through a bunch of unfamiliar powers every time their init comes up.

It’s not a big deal either way, but it makes things a bit smoother.

This


For learning you step the character complexity back so that the players can first learn the system then after they've had a peak behind the curtains you loosen restrictions so they can learn other aspects.

But if it isn't their first rodeo then there is no reason to severely limit choice. If they've played RPGs before offer to convert their favorite character from other games over to PB. If their familiar with PB and just new to Rifts also offer them their favori and e character from the Megaverse or let em open up Pandora's box.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:It's still fantasy role-play. If everyone wants to play humans, sure; if not, I tend not to make arbitrary limitations.
If I wanted to play a humans-only game I'd run Cyberpunk: 2020 or something.

So, like, you refuse to ever participate in a humans-only adventure unless you're playing Cyberpunk 2020....?
Seems weird to me.

(in lieu of snarky smirk) that was funny.

I do think it is better to start players out with hack and slash more than shoot shoot shoot.

That is unless your players' opponents are mooks like the white armorer stormtroopers.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:It's still fantasy role-play. If everyone wants to play humans, sure; if not, I tend not to make arbitrary limitations.
If I wanted to play a humans-only game I'd run Cyberpunk: 2020 or something.

So, like, you refuse to ever participate in a humans-only adventure unless you're playing Cyberpunk 2020....?
Seems weird to me.

So, like, ya, in the totally vapid way we're talking now, I like, guess. Fur shur.
If there's an option to play something I don't look at in the mirror every day, sure, I take that option.
What seems weird to me is people who always play humans regardless of other options, and what seems freakish to me is forcing someone else to.
One of the things I like most about Rifts is the multitude of options; you can play just about anything you want to play, as long as you're operating in the bounds of the established rules and your GM isn't a control freak.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:It's still fantasy role-play. If everyone wants to play humans, sure; if not, I tend not to make arbitrary limitations.
If I wanted to play a humans-only game I'd run Cyberpunk: 2020 or something.

So, like, you refuse to ever participate in a humans-only adventure unless you're playing Cyberpunk 2020....?
Seems weird to me.

So, like, ya, in the totally vapid way we're talking now, I like, guess. Fur shur.

Man, you get a LOT out of one use of the word "like."
Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

If there's an option to play something I don't look at in the mirror every day, sure, I take that option.

Most everybody does.
The weird part is refusing to play any character that shares the same species with you, in a group of the same, unless you're playing Cyberpunk 2020.

What seems weird to me is people who always play humans regardless of other options, and what seems freakish to me is forcing someone else to.

Cool.
But since nobody here so far is like that, why are you changing the subject?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:It's still fantasy role-play. If everyone wants to play humans, sure; if not, I tend not to make arbitrary limitations.
If I wanted to play a humans-only game I'd run Cyberpunk: 2020 or something.

So, like, you refuse to ever participate in a humans-only adventure unless you're playing Cyberpunk 2020....?
Seems weird to me.

So, like, ya, in the totally vapid way we're talking now, I like, guess. Fur shur.

Man, you get a LOT out of one use of the word "like."
Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

If there's an option to play something I don't look at in the mirror every day, sure, I take that option.

Most everybody does.
The weird part is refusing to play any character that shares the same species with you, in a group of the same, unless you're playing Cyberpunk 2020.

What seems weird to me is people who always play humans regardless of other options, and what seems freakish to me is forcing someone else to.

Cool.
But since nobody here so far is like that, why are you changing the subject?

Well, other than starting out everyone as CS Grunts, I suppose...

Fenris2020 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:What seems weird to me is people who always play humans regardless of other options, and what seems freakish to me is forcing someone else to.

Cool.
But since nobody here so far is like that, why are you changing the subject?

Well, other than starting out everyone as CS Grunts, I suppose...

So to YOU, having a group play Coalition members for an initial adventure to introduce them to the game world and game mechanics of Rifts is the same as "always playing humans regardless of other options"...?

Did someone already say that if you're not doing any cybernetics or magic, you might as well do Paratrooper?

They're stronger than Special Forces, and I think they're stronger than Merc Soldiers half the time.