Converting PFRPG casters, no PPE boost?

[ryokoryu]

Converting from most other games with casters they seem to get more PPE but palladium casters don't even get addressed. The same is true for psychics. The HU2 psychic ends up an almost twice as good mind melter. The palladium PCCs don't get anything and the casters don't get anything yet they are less powerful than their rifts counterparts would have been. they are significantly weaker than their counterparts from other games end up. I am using the revised edition, am I missing it, is it in another part of the book?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Converting from most other games with casters they seem to get more PPE but palladium casters don't even get addressed. The same is true for psychics. The HU2 psychic ends up an almost twice as good mind melter. The palladium PCCs don't get anything and the casters don't get anything yet they are less powerful than their rifts counterparts would have been. they are significantly weaker than their counterparts from other games end up. I am using the revised edition, am I missing it, is it in another part of the book?

the PF2 Wizard class doesn't get any bonus PPE cause they get about the same PPE as the LLW (the 'wizard class' of rifts).
Both the PF2 Mind Mage and the rifts Mind Melter get the same number of powers and the same amount of ISP....don't see what you are complaining about for ether. The conversion book only evens out classes that should be about the same.


Heroes Psychics don't get anything to their ISP as a bonus. And I don't see how you thing HU pisons are better then the PF2 and rifts MM's, because they ALSO have fewer starting powers
Did you misread something?

From what I can see is that you looked through the RCBr,
but you didn't side by side compare the classes and power cats to each other to see if they needed any bonuses before posting

[Voodoolaw]

He made an observation (correct or incorrect) and asked a question based on that observation. Nothing in the comment comes across as "ℨ!✝︎©hing."

Ryokoryu, if you are using the original Conversion Book, it looks like the conversion for Psionics may have changed. Would have to look later, but there is some sort of blurb in there about Super Powers and Psionics. I am pretty sure (but not positive) that you no longer double ISP, add all Physical powers and add the Super powers, if that is what you are referring to.

[Voodoolaw]

Skimming through the Revised Conversion Book real quick, looks like the part I remembered about Psionics and Super Powers referred to natives of Rifts Earth and possibility of Super Powers. As far as conversions from one to the other, there are no rules or guidelines except as they relate to specific Super Powers. I'd have to look at print dates and character creation (in HU1e) but would hazard a guess that the original Conversion Book rules are for adapting HU1e supers.

[Curbludgeon]

There's a clear power creep in P.P.E. totals moving through BTS1-RMB-NB-HU2-PFRPG2-RUE. That said LLW are a little ahead of other Rifts casters, some of which have been firmly left in the RMB 2d4x10+P.E. scale. What with the skill upgrades in the Conversion Book, a Wizard brought to Rifts having an average P.P.E. in between a TW and LLW seems OK.

The psychic classes vary more between each other across settings, often due to power selections upon leveling. The Mind Mage, for example, gains 5 powers a level compared to a Mind Melter's 2-4, while having the same I.S.P.. Taking into account how the RUE Mind Melter has O.C.C. bonuses for things which weren't around when PFRPG2e was written such as Perception Rolls, converting a Mind Mage is a pretty strong choice for a Rifts psychic. By comparison, while a converted HU2 Natural Psionic has more I.S.P. (M.E.x4+2d6x20, +10/level) they by mid level are falling behind on Super Psionics.

The Psi-Healer and Psychic Sensitive from PFRPG are fairly lackluster classes, and while they don't get any bonus abilities when converted to Rifts will effectively see a revamp in the upcoming CS Manhunters book. Some other psychic/magic classes that could use a first pass at conversion are those from Nightbane, Systems Failure, and BTS2.

Also, does anyone else find masking obscenity to be not just juvenile, but creepily infantile?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Looked like he was complaining to me....Which is why I 'high-lighted it' as such.

Looks like you haven't changes your insulting ways from a few months ago. Why don't you grow up?

[Curbludgeon]

Someone has a wet nappy. You get that whining over a critical comment immediately following making one is |-|¥|°Θ©Я! '|' !©@|_, right?

ryokoryu, I don't know if I'll bother charting all of it out, but it is interesting to note how much certain classes really benefit from coming from other settings and being converted to Rifts characters. While Wizards seem to get a little less than LLW from riding the publication changes train, for Warlocks, Diabolists, and Summoners it's strictly a bonus to begin in the Palladium world. Converted Psi-Mystics have an advantage over Rifts Mystics in intial I.S.P., overall number of psionic selections, initial psionics save, and skills, but by the time of RUE Rifts native Mystics edge them out on super psionics. A Rifts Priest is a better spellcaster with an amount of P.P.E. left unfortunately undefined, but the converted Priest again eclipses them on skills. Palladium Fantasy-based Witches with lesser Pacts are better off than Rifts Pact Witches, but the Gift of Union P.P.E./M.D.C. bonuses are much higher in Rifts sources. Druids are largely an afterthought in this system, and HU power categories have a similarly scattershot approach to conversion.

It's almost as if applying a series of half-compatible spot fixes across decades of publication leads to inconsistent results.

Here is the beginning of a list of preternaturally gifted classes that don't have Conversion Book 1 entries, accompanied by tentative notes:
Mechanoid Invasion:

• I.S.P.:20+M.E.+(from 1d6 to 10 per level)
  Given how differently psionics are handled I'd argue it's better to simply recreate the character using another class than attempt to convert.

Systems Failure:

• NORAD Psychic: I.S.P.:1d6x10+M.E.+10 per level; Powers:6 lesser 1 super, +1-2 per level; Starting Skills: 5-10 total+Automatic Skills
  Treat as HU Natural Psychic, and potentially throw in a couple of extra skills

Robotech:

• Perytonian Energy Wizard: P.P.E.:2d6x10+20+10 per level; Starting skills: 21
  Given both their unique position in the setting and the ability of non-Energy Wizard Perytonians to dabble, I'd say either leave them as is in Rifts, or add 1d6x10 and play up the limited nature of their field of esoteric study

Palladium Fantasy:

• Life Force Wizard: P.P.E.:3d4x10+20+3d6 per level; Starting skills: 21
  (They're at Wizard level with a class of unique spells, and are meant to be rare enough that conversion notes would just encourage their use as PCs)

Mystic China:

• Geomancer
• Immortalist
• Chi Arcanist
  (between the differing China/Japan/DB3 treatments of Chi this is kind of intractable. The Rifter article concerning them ain't half bad)

Nightbane:

Most beings like Nightbane, Guardians, and Athanatos probably don't need much, save arguably the usual skill shenanigans. I could see beings like Milleks getting a small bump.
• Psychic: I.S.P.:1d4x10+M.E.+10 per level; Powers: 10+1 per level (up to 5 super/master); Starting skills: 23
  If the later detailed Mind Master is akin to the HU Natural Psychic then this is like the Latent Psychic.
  
• Sorcerer: P.P.E.:1d6x10+P.E.+2d6 per level; Starting skills: 25
  Add 1d6x10+20 P.P.E. and encourage selection of a Sorcerous Proficiency
  
• Mystic: P.P.E.: 1d4x10+P.E.+(1d6+1) per level; I.S.P.: 1d4x10+M.E.+(1d6+1) per level; Starting skills: 21
  At a minimum these could be brought up to the levels of a Rifts Mystic
  
• PAB Psychic Agent: I.S.P: 5d6+M.E.+2d4 per level; Powers: 3 plus 1 every few levels
  These are somewhere between a minor and major psychic, and I'd perhaps just give them a couple of extra skills to play up the intelligence agent role.
  
• Astral Lord: P.P.E.: 3d4x10+P.E.+2d6 per level; I.S.P.:1d4x10+M.E.+1d4 per level; Powers: 4+1 per level, plus Astral abilities; Starting skills: 22
  While the Astral Configuration (Objects) could perhaps stand to have a non-permanent option, I don't think this class needs much.
  
• Astral Mage: P.P.E.:3d6x10+P.E.+2d4 level (1/3 expended on domain); I.S.P.:4d6+M.E. +1d6 per level; Powers: 4; Starting skills: 24
  Also cool
  
• Dream Maker: I.S.P.: M.E.x5 +2d6 per level; Powers: 2+1/3levels, plus unique abilities; Starting skills: 22
  
• Dream Dancer: I.S.P.: M.E.x3 +2d6 per level; Powers 3+1 per level, plus unique abilities; Starting skills: 23
  I could go either way on Dreamstream classes. Even more than Astral oriented classes they can't be touched in their field of speciality and seldom go beyond it.
  
• Mind Master: I.S.P.: 2d6x10+M.E.+3d4 per level; Powers: 14-15+1 per level (max 16 super/master) Starting skills: 26
  Giving them the HU conversion treatment results in a similar situation, where they have more starting I.S.P. and better skills than a Mind Melter, but lag behind in Super/Master psionics.
  
• 'Kinetic: I.S.P.:2d4x10+10+M.E.+2d6 per level; Powers 3+1 per level plus 1 special; Starting skills: 21
  I'd probably just convert these to Rifts equivalent classes (Zapper/Burster/Spouter/Cold Born, or Chaos Earth's Teke Freak from Rifter 50)
  
• Natural/Genius: P.P.E.: 4d6+16+P.E.; I.S.P. 3d6+M.E.+1d4 per level; Powers: 2; Starting skills: 22
  This class is already close to a BTS1 Natural with RCB1r modifers applied
  
• Psi-Mechanic: Add 2d6 P.P.E. and it's close to a BTS 1 Psi-Mechanic with RCB1 modifers applied. Like the Natural these are perhaps best considered in their original context as BTS classes
  
• Arcane Detective: P.P.E.1d4x10+P.E.+2d6 per level; Starting skills:22
  I'd add 2d4x10 P.P.E.
  
• Shadow Warlocks and Geo-Immortals: these have entries in Conversion Book 3, where little is changed
  
• Acolyte: may trade skills for psionic abilities.
  Convert as BTS1 Parapsychologist, add 1d6 I.S.P. per psionic ability aquired
  
• Channeler:P.P.E:2d6+P.E.+2d6 per level, plus external reserve of 1d6x10+25; I.S.P.:2d6+M.E.+2d6 per level; Powers: 1 per level; Starting skills: 24
  I could see this class converting to somewhere between a Chaos Earth Demon Disciple and an Australian Songjuicer.
  
• Cybermage:P.P.E.: 1d6x10+P.E.+2d6 per level; I.S.P.: M.E. +1d4 per level; Powers: 3-4; Starting skills: 27
  Maybe add 1d4x10-1d6x10 P.P.E.. With the number of beings on Rifts Earth that possess more than 50 P.P.E., this character is more likely to create devices that don't make use of their personal reserve.
  
• Fleshsculptor: P.P.E.:2d4x10+P.E.+2d6 per level; Starting skills: 28
  Much like how most of the 2d4x10 RMB-era casting classes should arguably be increased to 3d4x10, as seen with the Technowizard, I'd follow suit here.
  
• Mirrormage: P.P.E.: 1d6x10+P.E.+2d6 per level; Starting skills: 22
  Add 1d4x10-1d6x10 P.P.E.
Most of the Shadows of Light Pandora/MK-ULTRA-II classes could be taken as similar to the sort of specialist psychics seen in Psyscape, with whom they share roughly equivalent I.S.P. scores. It's probably better to convert these with a light hand and emphasize the skills gained, but adding a handful of lesser abilities wouldn't go amiss.

• Psi-Illusionist: I.S.P.:2d6x10+M.E.+2d6 per level; Powers:7+special; Starting skills:21
  Adding 1d6x10 I.S.P. would put them at roughly the same level as a Palladium Fantasy Illusionist
  
• Psi-Shadow: I.S.P.:2d6x10+M.E.+3d6 per level; Powers: 4+special; Starting skills: 22
  
• Psi-Hacker: I.S.P.:2d6x10+M.E.+2d6 per level; Powers: 6+special; Starting skills: 23
  
• Psychic Bloodhound: I.S.P.:2d6x10+M.E.+2d6 per level; Powers: 4+special; Starting skills: 19
  
• Psi-Shaper: I.S.P.:2d6x10+M.E.+2d6 per level; Powers: 12+special; Starting skills: 21
  
• Psi-Dampener: I.S.P.:1d6x10+M.E.+2d6 per level; Powers: 4+special (always active); Starting skills: 25
  
• Psi-Leech: I.S.P.: 1d6x10+90; Powers: 7+special; Starting skills:19
  I'd say the Psychic Claws Death Blow ability could have some sort of increased effect on M.D.C. beings, and a Rifts Psi-Leech should be able to select Mind Bleeder powers
  
• Templar Dark Slayer: I.S.P.:2d4x10+M.E.+(1d6+6) per level; P.P.E.: 4d6+P.E.+1d6 per level; Powers: 9+~1 per level; Starting skills: 27

BTS2 is different enough from 1st edition that it would warrant a separate thread. For one thing I'd be interested in Bursters and Fire Walkers borrowing from each other a bit to help bring both up to snuff.

[Borast]

Mystic China:

• Geomancer
• Immortalist
• Chi Arcanist
  (between the differing China/Japan/DB3 treatments of Chi this is kind of intractable. The Rifter article concerning them ain't half bad)

Personally, I would love to see Chi returned to its own stat again. Never saw a problem with it in the first place, especially when equivalent PPE costs were provided or easily calculated.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you are not going to adult, leaving insults out of your posting, then just leave the discussion.

The reason that the Robotech magic user was left out of the RCB1r was by the time it was put together there was a no conversion between RT and rifts policy within PalladiumBooks. This happened between the different editions. Also the 2nd ed RT was published after the RCB1r was published, by quite a few years.

You might check the no conversion policy to see if you just broke it with your post.

]

Mystic China:

• Geomancer
• Immortalist
• Chi Arcanist
  (between the differing China/Japan/DB3 treatments of Chi this is kind of intractable. The Rifter article concerning them ain't half bad)

That the "chi" in the RC2 book is listed as ISP...it is fairly reasonable just to conceder this powers are just Psionics.
To consider the powers in RJ magic because they run off of PPE is also reasonable.
As for the 3g book 2 powers.....it is reasonable to let them be considered to be psi or magic following which energies they use.

This is sort of like how the phase powers use ISP and can be considered to be psionics.

There are defined conversions between the three energies Chi-PPE-ISP have been defined as to be 6 to 1 to 2 ratio.

[Curbludgeon]

Nah, I'm not going to do any of that.

Borast, I agree. The only real problem with Chi being a separate stat is it increases the ways to create a self-powered PPE/ISP/Chi engine.

[Mack]

Lock warning.

Any more posts sniping at one another will result in Official Warnings issued and the topic locked.

If someone crosses the line, report it so a Moderator can address it. Do not respond in kind.

[Curbludgeon]

Even with only mentioning Palladium Fantasy classes obliquely I left out a bunch, with most of the "official" ones now hopefully listed below.

• Frost Wizard: As Wizard; Starting skills: 22+special
• Zodiac Mage:P.P.E.:3d4x10+P.E.+2d6 per level (plus potentially 4d6 more); Starting skills:23 plus potentially additional
• Priest:P.P.E.: 6d6+P.E.+1d6 or 2d4 per level; Starting skills:23 or 25
  As noted above, provided the deity of the priest has a presence in Rifts Earth, this is a rare example of a magical class better off coming from Rifts Earth than traveling there.
• Druid: P.P.E.:1d4x10+P.E.+1d6 per level; Starting skills: 26
  As discussed in the Millennium Druid thread most every iteration of the concept in Palladium seems intentionally throttled, to the extent that jamming any 2 or even three druid types together would be comparable to many other available character types.
• Monk: P.E.x3+1d4 per level
• Illusionist: I.S.P.:either 2d4x10+M.E.+10 per level or 3d6x10+M.E.+12 per level; Powers: 5+special; Starting skills: 23
• Necromancer: P.P.E.:2d4x10+P.E.+2d6 per level; Starting skills: 22
  The Iceborn Necromancer variant instead has 1d6x10+90+10 per level, but takes a hit on skills
• Shaman: P.P.E.:3d6+P.E.+40+2d6 per level; Starting skills: 23
• Tezcat Shaman: P.P.E.:6d6x2+8 per level
• Holy Crusader:
• Undead Hunter:
• Witch Hunter:
  I don't know if there was a 2nd edition updating of these, official or otherwise.
• Oneiromancer: as Psi-Mystic
• Conjurer:P.P.E.: 2d4x10+P.E.+2d6 per level; Starting skills: 23
  With the Conversion Book skill shuffle and increased spell access in later levels a Conjurer is better brought from Palladium.
• Danzi Shaman: P.E.x5+1d6x10(inherent to species) +2d6 per level; Starting skills:31
• Waterchanter: 6d6+P.E.+1d6 per level
  This is largely a variant Priest

[Axelmania]

I think it's something like PF is meant to have same PPE levels as Rifts (approx) so it's not a big shift like it is when BTS sorcerers come over.

Makes me curious about PPE levels in Nightbane though and their mages visiting.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The NB main mage type only has 1d6x10 PPE. So like the BTS Arcanist IF the GM wants to bring them up to matching the levels of Rifts or PF2 then they will need bonus PPE.

[Curbludgeon]

Axlemania, I think I listed most of the Nightbane classes whom gain spells or psionics above. I'd argue there are a few factors to weigh when bringing characters from that setting over to Rifts. One is that the Shadows of Light classes are a little beefier than, say, the Sorceror or Mystic from the main book. Another is to what degree one might care about role protection. How similar should an Arcanist, Sorceror, Mystic Study, and even Wizard and Ley Line Walker end up being? An Arcanist brought to Rifts would have less P.P.E. on average than some of the others, but have a more developed skillset. While the Sorceror isn't particularly impressive in terms of either P.P.E. or skills, some might claim the Sorcerous Proficiencies from Through the Glass Darkly are best considered exclusive to characters from that setting. How should an Arcane Detective size up against a Vanguard Espionage Agent?

A third thing to consider is if more specialized classes might be better served with more customized conversions. I wouldn't balk at, for example, a Mirrormage having increased spell access when in Rifts, but with their facility with Mirror Magic reflected in some way. How does the approach taken with earlier specialty casters like Necromancers and Line Wizards, where a lower than average P.P.E. score is combined with penalties for spells outside the speciality, compare with Shadow Mages increased ability with spells which for other casters might not be cost effective?

Clearly this is all subjective hemming and hawing, insofar as an official errata is unlikely to be published on the company's website, but it does highlight how the spacing between publications across settings leads to some classes falling a bit behind the curve.