Forums of the Megaverse®

Question, is the EBSIS a creation of Palladium, or is it/was it from some source material? Also, same question for the Anti-Unification League(?).

-STS

AFAIK the EBSIS is a creation of Palladium when they did the 1E RPG. Their Battloids (at least the original 3 in BK4) are repurposed line art from SDC:SC that in 2E was more correctly identified, otherwise they used recondition RDF/Zen. mecha (unless you had Lancer's Rockers where they get some new hardware from pre-Invid).

The Anti-Unification League is from the series proper (EP15, the Council placed the destruction at Macross Island on them), though it was never fleshed out in the show. Post 2001-reset material involves them in the FTS comic series.

slade the sniper wrote:Question, is the EBSIS a creation of Palladium, or is it/was it from some source material?

I've never seen it mentioned anywhere but the old RPG.

slade the sniper wrote:Also, same question for the Anti-Unification League(?).

The High-Ranking Dudes mention it as part of their cover story in "Homecoming." The way they say it implies it's a real organization. IIRC, the equivalent Macross scene refers to the anti-UN forces that are part of Macross' backstory.

The EBSIS are not mentioned by name in 2E RPG, but there are indications of a non-aligned polity in Russia in the Shadow Chronicles book and mentions if multiple non-aligned states that had to be subdued in the Masters Saga book.

slade the sniper wrote:Question, is the EBSIS a creation of Palladium, or is it/was it from some source material?

The "Eastern Bloc Soviet Independent States" are Palladium's creation. They were invented to pad the 1st Edition RPG, being a fairly unimaginative generic "evil Russians" faction... a fruit so low-hanging it was practically subterranean at the time the game was made.

slade the sniper wrote:Also, same question for the Anti-Unification League(?).

The "Anti-Unification League" is Robotech's dub rename of the Anti-Unification Alliance faction that first appeared in Super Dimension Fortress Macross and would be the main antagonist in Macross Zero.

In Robotech, the Anti-Unification League is never fleshed out. Their one and only proper appearance was in From the Stars, where they were just cackling evil mooks who wanted to destroy the United Earth Government for no stated reason. The only identified members were spies who infiltrated the UEDF to sabotage its defense programs, T.R. Edwards and E.A. Leonard. The ending of the comic implies that there may not actually be any such organization, and that the whole thing may just be a false flag to justify the continued military buildup for Earth's defense.

In Macross, the Anti-Unification Alliance was a loose confederation of various militant nationalist groups, militias, terrorists, and other partisans who'd aligned against the newly-formed Earth Unification Government shortly after it was formed in 2001. The organization suffered from just as much cognitive dissonance as you'd expect from a name like "Anti-Unification Alliance", with its individual member groups having wildly different motivations ranging from simple opposition to the idea of a world government to more specific grievances like dissatisfaction with how the UN Government had forced resolution of various regional, national, or international disputes, or a belief that the UN Government was dominated by a particular pre-Unification faction. They were a major fixture of the period known as the Unification Wars, a period where innumerable small armed conflicts broke out around the world in the wake of the world's decision to form the Unification Government that lasted from 2000 to 2008. The Anti-Unification Alliance was responsible for a number of heinous terrorist acts including the hijacking of the Oberth-class destroyer Tsiolkovsky and using it to destroy the returning Mars evacuation fleet (killing Misa's lover Riber Fruhling), destroying Grand Cannon II in Australia, multiple attacks on South Ataria Island, and the destruction of St. Petersburg, Russia using a thermonuclear reaction weapon. The events of Macross Zero are basically the Alliance's last gasp before dissolving in late 2008. (Barring a pair of suicidal offensives in Africa and the South Pacific where they petulantly threw the last of their troops at the UN Forces rather than surrender, and ended up being wiped out by newly-introduced weapons like the VF-0+ Phoenix Plus, VF-1 Valkyrie, and the TV series Destroids.) The UN Government later used the Alliance as their cover story for the sudden disappearance (and apparent destruction of) the SDF-1 Macross and South Ataria Island.

Robotech didn't really leave anything for the "Anti-Unification League" to do, since the rewrite presented the scenes that had previously belonged to the Unification Wars as a pre-1999 world war instead.

Thanks!!!

-STS

Seto Kaiba wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:Question, is the EBSIS a creation of Palladium, or is it/was it from some source material?

The "Eastern Bloc Soviet Independent States" are Palladium's creation. They were invented to pad the 1st Edition RPG, being a fairly unimaginative generic "evil Russians" faction... a fruit so low-hanging it was practically subterranean at the time the game was made.

At the time though the Russians were the "evil bad guys". It doesn't quite hold up now but I still like the idea of them.

Sambot wrote:At the time though the Russians were the "evil bad guys". It doesn't quite hold up now but I still like the idea of them.

The Russians were demonized at the time, yeah... but it was painfully unimaginative, even counterproductive, for a sci-fi setting where the Cold War was explicitly over.

It also, yes, loses a certain je ne sais quoi once you know what the real Soviet Union was like at the time the books were written. Less "evil superpower bent on world domination" and more barely functional society tearing out its own hair over the paranoid madness of its leadership and its inability to feed its own people.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sambot wrote:At the time though the Russians were the "evil bad guys". It doesn't quite hold up now but I still like the idea of them.

The Russians were demonized at the time, yeah... but it was painfully unimaginative, even counterproductive, for a sci-fi setting where the Cold War was explicitly over.

It also, yes, loses a certain je ne sais quoi once you know what the real Soviet Union was like at the time the books were written. Less "evil superpower bent on world domination" and more barely functional society tearing out its own hair over the paranoid madness of its leadership and its inability to feed its own people.

No matter which group of humans you choose for a human type enemy is going to be something of reflection of real world or history. The 1e books had African Warlords and I believe in South American dictators of one type or another so it wasn't just EBSIS. I for one liked all of these as it gave some variety to the scenarios I ran that wasn't just driving big robots and shooting up battle pods. The characters could hunt for an EBSIS spy or stop an arms shipment to the ZCZ by human smugglers. Great chance to use those Espionage and other skills.

My 5 cents.

Warshield73 wrote:No matter which group of humans you choose for a human type enemy is going to be something of reflection of real world or history. The 1e books had African Warlords and I believe in South American dictators of one type or another so it wasn't just EBSIS.

That's not really accurate to either the real world or the contents of those books.

Warshield73 wrote:I for one liked all of these as it gave some variety to the scenarios I ran that wasn't just driving big robots and shooting up battle pods. The characters could hunt for an EBSIS spy or stop an arms shipment to the ZCZ by human smugglers. Great chance to use those Espionage and other skills.

Sambot wrote:At the time though the Russians were the "evil bad guys".

According to who? Siembieda's job was imagining a future United Earth Government; instead he created this.

Warshield73 wrote:No matter which group of humans you choose for a human type enemy is going to be something of reflection of real world or history.

When the writer's being lazy or trying to demonize a specific group, sure... but a writer who puts in actual effort can at least make an antagonist faction that isn't an obvious reflection of a contemporary nation or ethnic group.

Macross's creators went to the trouble of ensuring the Anti-Unification Alliance wasn't going to come off as a stand-in for contemporary hostilities or be some blatant ethnic stereotype villain. That can't be said for Palladium and EBSIS, a lazy, hackneyed, incredibly cliched late Cold War jab at the "dirty commies" haphazardly thrown into a setting that patently had no place for it.

(I get that canon Robotech is not a setting that's conducive to a wide variety of adventures, but at the same time there's a lot that can be done without resorting to a xenophobe's version of Boblin the Goblin that's only slightly less subtle than the average Saturday morning cartoon villain.)

Then there is that the anti-Unification Opponents didn't really make the screen even a antagonist role until the Macross Zero series.

M+ was also about an ''internal power struggle"" (in the macro) to, but mostly about the relationship between the three friends getting reacquainted with each other.

Every other macross series has been about external threats.
(For the MF series the Galaxy Colony counts as an external threat because it is not the Frontier Colony.)
[I have not seen the MΔ. So someone else will have to make an informed statement about how to look as that story set up.]

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Then there is that the anti-Unification Opponents didn't really make the screen even a antagonist role until the Macross Zero series.

They are covered in reasonable detail in the official setting materials, but their first onscreen appearance in an antagonist role (however minor) was in original series episode 33 "Rainy Night". That's the Roy-Claudia flashback episode. There are also a few short stories and so on that peripherally feature them like the Global-Hayase short story "The Plundering Fleet". Macross Zero was the Alliance landing a starring role.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Every other macross series has been about external threats.

Remember, the Anti-Unification Alliance dissolved the year before the First Space War began after a series of disastrous offensives caused its backers to withdraw their support.

It's also wise to remember that, unlike Robotech, Macross's story has been expanded in many different media formats beyond just animation. There are short stories, light novels, video game titles, manga, etc. that are also a part of Macross's official setting. Quite a few of them feature "internal" conflicts as well.


You could also argue that Macross Delta nominally is an internal conflict since it's localized to the worlds in the Brisingr globular cluster and is an act of aggression by a former New UN Government member world against the current New UN Government member worlds in that region.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sambot wrote:At the time though the Russians were the "evil bad guys". It doesn't quite hold up now but I still like the idea of them.

The Russians were demonized at the time, yeah... but it was painfully unimaginative, even counterproductive, for a sci-fi setting where the Cold War was explicitly over.

It also, yes, loses a certain je ne sais quoi once you know what the real Soviet Union was like at the time the books were written. Less "evil superpower bent on world domination" and more barely functional society tearing out its own hair over the paranoid madness of its leadership and its inability to feed its own people.

At the time though the Russians were still fighting in Afghanistan. Plus the Cold War didn't end until 1991. Robotech came out in the mid 80's. It's a future based on that starting point. Real Life went a different direction. So Soviets as bad guys still works.

Seto Kaiba wrote:When the writer's being lazy or trying to demonize a specific group, sure... but a writer who puts in actual effort can at least make an antagonist faction that isn't an obvious reflection of a contemporary nation or ethnic group.

Macross's creators went to the trouble of ensuring the Anti-Unification Alliance wasn't going to come off as a stand-in for contemporary hostilities or be some blatant ethnic stereotype villain. That can't be said for Palladium and EBSIS, a lazy, hackneyed, incredibly cliched late Cold War jab at the "dirty commies" haphazardly thrown into a setting that patently had no place for it.

I don't know about lazy. Sure Macross had the Anti-Unification Alliance but they still felt Russian to me. Especially in Macross Zero. After Space War I there's only one nation of clones except for the Anti-UN Boogey Man.
Robotech had people around the world struggling to recover and forming governments that were familiar to them. The UEG recognized those groups sovereignty.

Having a variety of nations with their own ideas and concerns doesn't seem lazy to me. Also the EBSIS isn't really a bad guy. They're a potential bad guy. In their early days the A.S.C. is as much if not more a bad guy than the EBSIS The EBSIS is more an alternative to the RDF and ASC. It's just unfortunate that they weren't fleshed out more.

(I get that canon Robotech is not a setting that's conducive to a wide variety of adventures, but at the same time there's a lot that can be done without resorting to a xenophobe's version of Boblin the Goblin that's only slightly less subtle than the average Saturday morning cartoon villain.)

Um...what? I think Robotech just as conductive if not more so than Macross. Earth has multiple nations with their own concerns and struggles. It's invaded by multiple aliens. A large number go into space and meet more aliens. Really, I think Robotech is full of untapped potential.

There was a time when I imagined being revised and being laid out more like Rifts. The Main Book and sourcebooks would cover the different eras. World Books would cover individual nations/militaries in more detail. So at least 5-6 books for eras and another who knows how many covering each of Earth's militaries, each of the invading militaries, and each of the planets the REF goes to. With the possibility of adventure books. That's without getting into later colony missions. Which I had as a thing long before I ever heard about any Macross sequels.
Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

Sambot wrote:At the time though the Russians were still fighting in Afghanistan. Plus the Cold War didn't end until 1991. Robotech came out in the mid 80's.

But none of that is remotely relevant to the point being made... except in that it demonstrates how utterly unimaginative the EBSIS concept was.

Sambot wrote:It's a future based on that starting point. Real Life went a different direction. So Soviets as bad guys still works.

Well, yes and no... it's not actually clear when the Robotech timeline branches from our own. Circumstantial evidence from the canon comics could be used to suggest that it branched as far back as the 1940's. That too, is beside the point, though.

In Robotech, there was a worldwide cessation of hostilities in 1999 and world peace was effectively secured in 2005 when the United Earth Gov't was formed. Soviets as bad guys doesn't work in Robotech after 2005 because 1. the Soviet Union or Russian Federation is part of the UEG so they aren't hostile and 2. there aren't enough people left to have multiple states cropping up after the First Robotech War when the entire human population fits into a handful of lowrise towns in what used to be the Northwestern United States.

Sambot wrote:I don't know about lazy. Sure Macross had the Anti-Unification Alliance but they still felt Russian to me. Especially in Macross Zero.

Eh... it's pretty explicitly and heavily mixed in the OVA. Sure, two of the named characters have Slavic names, but their nationality is never discussed and in D.D.'s case he may be Russian-American given that he mentored the explicitly-American Roy Focker during the Unification Wars. The leader of their ground forces was Arabic (his name's Hassan), and the mission's director was British (Dr. Hasford). Their rifles are a kludge of French and Russian, their VF is one codeveloped between (West) Germany, Israel, and Russia, their destroid is (West) German, their cannons are mainly Swedish, their optical weapons (West) German, Swedish missiles, etc. etc.

Sambot wrote:After Space War I there's only one nation of clones except for the Anti-UN Boogey Man

In Macross, after the First Space War there's a population of ~1 million humans and ~8 million Zentradi, a bunch of undamaged space colonies at the lagrange points, an undamaged colony on the moon, and then emigrant fleets by the dozen leading to a robust interstellar civilization representing (by the 2040s) at least six humanoid species including humanity.

Sambot wrote:Robotech had people around the world struggling to recover and forming governments that were familiar to them. The UEG recognized those groups sovereignty.

No, it didn't... that's the point we're getting at here. No such thing ever happens in the Robotech TV series. There are no other governments on Earth after the First Robotech War. The UEG is the only show in town, and the series isn't even shy about why. After the First Robotech War, the UEG has a very literal monopoly on the essentials of life like food, potable water, medical commodities, etc. If you want to leave and start your own country with blackjack and hookers you have two options: "Starve to death" or "Reconsider".

Sambot wrote:Having a variety of nations with their own ideas and concerns doesn't seem lazy to me.

Having a variety of nations isn't lazy in that sense... it's lazy in the sense that they couldn't come up with any way to add options that didn't break the show's setting. It's also lazy in the sense you meant because the only idea they could come up with was the kind of moustache-twirling evil Russians who haunted the McCarthyist Red Scare-era nightmares of baby boomers... barely a half-step up from literal Nazis or fictive options like Cobra.

Sambot wrote:Um...what? I think Robotech just as conductive if not more so than Macross. Earth has multiple nations with their own concerns and struggles.

Well, no... as noted above it actually doesn't. None of that is part of the actual Robotech story. It's "throw it in" page count padding Palladium came up with that has no real basis in the series. There's the United Earth Government and then the Invid occupation and that's it.

Sambot wrote:It's invaded by multiple aliens. A large number go into space and meet more aliens.

I mean, yeah... but alien invasion is basically all the story has to offer.

Earth is invaded and destroyed by the Zentradi. Then by the Robotech Masters. Then by the Invid. Inbetween those first two, some of the characters go into space and... fight against the Invid invasions of a bunch of other planets. It's gotten to the point where that, in the official canon, there aren't even any actual civilians after the Second Robotech War. Everyone on Earth is either a subject-collaborator or nominal slave under the Invid and the humans living in space explicitly have one and only one career path open to them: military service. The Zentradi are wiped out fighting Earth's wars for it, the Robotech Masters on Earth are just never mentioned again and probably were exterminated. None of the alien races the UEEF goes to such lengths to save ever contribute to the wars Earth is fighting directly unless you count the one that was secretly backstabbing them all along and became the fourth alien race to attempt a human genocide.

Robotech, as a setting, doesn't really offer a lot of alternatives to the war campaign for RPG players unless you add content that isn't in the series. The non-military character classes are largely decorative or for NPCs. There's nothing for players to do aside from fight the war until the New Generation era... and then, the only real options are "fight the war" or "play off-brand Mad Max". Even non-canon additions like EBSIS in 1e are nothing but another party to be at war with.

That's what I mean when I say it's not conducive to a wide variety of adventures.

Seto wrote:There are no other governments on Earth after the First Robotech War. The UEG is the only show in town, and the series isn't even shy about why. After the First Robotech War, the UEG has a very literal monopoly on the essentials of life like food, potable water, medical commodities, etc. If you want to leave and start your own country with blackjack and hookers you have two options: "Starve to death" or "Reconsider".

Except by 2014 we know that the UEG is starting to fracture, Monument City was granted autonomy that is in the series itseslf (though by 2029 its the Capital location of the UEG). While the show itself doesn't go into detail, there is the Feudalistic Society that is said to have developed (again this is from the series). Theoretically a GMZ could construct a campaign around restructuring.

Seto wrote:the Robotech Masters on Earth are just never mentioned again and probably were exterminated.

The Robotech Masters as a political entity are gone (aside from maybe the Elders), but the Tirolians as a species are not exterminated. I will agree there may not be any Earth, but they are out there (Rem and Cabell being Tirolians). The fact the UEEF acquired Bioroid Invid Fighters (which in the show are late model introduction) means the UEEF had to have acquired the stockpile from the RM fleet at Earth, which opens up the possibility that the UEEF transported not just Bioroids back to Tirol but also survivors (especially ones with technical knowledge to assist in R&D on their recovered technology).

Seto wrote:None of the alien races the UEEF goes to such lengths to save ever contribute to the wars Earth is fighting directly unless you count the one that was secretly backstabbing them all along and became the fourth alien race to attempt a human genocide.

These aliens though could not contribute to the war against the Zentreadi, the UEEF wasn't even around then. We do not know when contact was made, so they might not be around to help against the Masters at Earth. They did contribute to the war against the Invid (Prelude).

The Sentinels did pledge support in Prelude, there was the Haydonites of course, but also the Kabarens (production capacity). Tirolians and Praxians superficially blend in with humans, so short of an outright statement that so-so is non-human, its possible they contributed manpower and we'd never notice. What contributions the other 3 races make isn't clear, but they could take up some slack locally as the UEEF was apparently weakened when Edwards escaped Tirol and fled to Optera.

Seto wrote:Robotech, as a setting, doesn't really offer a lot of alternatives to the war campaign for RPG players unless you add content that isn't in the series

War doesn't have to be the focus, especially depending on the setting/era. You have espionage (internally, and likely on non-allied entities that could breakaway or attempt to breakaway), law enforcement (which might have some overlap with espionage), and exploration (space, ocean, derelicts). This might require adding content not in the series (espionage will require spy gear, exploration new creatures and hardware, etc) or fleshing out something in the series that gets mentioned but never elaborated on (Space Pirates, Zentreadi offshoots scattered across the universe, Disciples of Zor) or suggested (Gloval says the Zentreadi "evolved" to their current state, which IMHO means there could be other evolutionary offshoots which is supported somewhat by Leonard's statement about micronized Zentreadi being scattered throughout the universe).

You could do an Entertainment orientated campaign (Mecha-Su-Dai-esque, traditional sports, battle of the bands) being the focus. We know musician/performers are still around (Bowie, Lancer, Lancer's pickup bands, dancers, G. Sullivan) in all 3 post TMS settings. Pre-Invid also can be shown to have Movie productions still around (Dana did take Angelo to the movies), and some form of stage craft survived (Simon's troupe in NYC). Sports (including 1E's underground MSD) likely also exist in some form on Earth (out in space maybe not) if other forms of entertainment have survived then it stands to reason these did to (or new ones evolved like 1E's MSD). From a morale standpoint one would think the UEEF would also have some type of Entertainment setup (formally as informally would seem to be a given due to Lancer's guitar playing in Invasion Comic).

As far as the sentinels races go..
Tirolian and praxians as mentioned can generally "blend in" with humans and thus could be present in the recovery fleets as background chars.

The karbarrans are the industrial powerhouse building all the ueef ships and gear.
The spherians are likely a main source of all the metals and non-metallic minerals being used to make the ueef ships and hardware.
The perytonians would seem to have a low population density, so might not contribute much manpower wise (though probably did in small numbers) but they and the garudans (who have serious logistics issues due to their special atmosphere requirements) likely took over part of the patrol and aid of the worlds of the former tirolian empire, thus freeing up human and tirolian manpower to staff and support sending such large fleets the long way back to earth.

ShadowLogan wrote:War doesn't have to be the focus, especially depending on the setting/era. [...] This might require adding content not in the series [...] or fleshing out something in the series that gets mentioned but never elaborated on [...]

OK, this one actually threw me a bit... this started out phrased like an objection, but barely two sentences in you've effectively conceded the point. Are you objecting or agreeing with me?

The point you were replying to was me stating that, in Robotech, the official setting has little-to-nothing to offer a GM or RPG player outside of playing a soldier in one or more of the wars. If you want to do something else, you're basically stuck having to come up with all of it yourself. That absence of narrative options being what gave rise to nonsense padding inclusions like EBSIS.




Confining the side discussion to a Spoiler tag for ease of reading:

Rainy Night....What I remember is that they don't show any air battle in this episode. (thou it's been a long time since I've watched it...) If I am incorrect in this so be it. But I speificly worded what Said to reflect what I remember.

Seto Kaiba wrote:snip...
You could also argue that Macross Delta nominally is an internal conflict since it's localized to the worlds in the Brisingr globular cluster and is an act of aggression by a former New UN Government member world against the current New UN Government member worlds in that region.

Actually I didn't comment about what sort of conflict was depicted in MΔ .

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:[I have not seen the MΔ. So someone else will have to make an informed statement about how to look as that story set up.]

But thank you for adding some content about MΔ that I couldn't.

While the macross games & novels are nice and fine. They were not anime series. As such they where not what I covered.

Sambot wrote:At the time though the Russians were still fighting in Afghanistan. Plus the Cold War didn't end until 1991. Robotech came out in the mid 80's. It's a future based on that starting point. Real Life went a different direction. So Soviets as bad guys still works.

Only if you think the politics of a United Earth Government should be the same as United States government policy. You might as well say, "So Americans as bad guys still works."

Sambot wrote:Also the EBSIS isn't really a bad guy. They're a potential bad guy.

The EBSIS was engaged in open warfare against the RDF since their introduction in Book Two. (Admittedly, later books backed off from that.)

Sambot wrote:In their early days the A.S.C. is as much if not more a bad guy than the EBSIS.

That's from the novels. In the first edition of the RPG, the ASC is just another good-guy organization, just like the RDF or REF.

Sambot wrote:The EBSIS is more an alternative to the RDF and ASC.

The EBSIS starts wars of conquest and arms mass murderers. It not so evil as to be unplayable, but it's definitely a bad-guy organization.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Rainy Night....What I remember is that they don't show any air battle in this episode. (thou it's been a long time since I've watched it...) If I am incorrect in this so be it. But I speificly worded what Said to reflect what I remember.

The episode shows an Anti-Unification Alliance aerial attack on the base where Roy and Claudia were stationed at around 11 minutes in. It's the only appearance of the MiM-31 in animation.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:While the macross games & novels are nice and fine. They were not anime series. As such they where not what I covered.

Yes, but for the reasons I identified and the fact that several later Macross TV shows directly reference them, it would be remiss of me not to mention them. Especially as they were examples of the kind of "internal conflict" story you were talking about.

I have hesitated a bit prior to taking the time to post this... but since this conversation tries to judge Robotech, prior to its reboot full of missing pieces, with arguments using mostly the post-missing pieces 2nd edition canon; I felt I had to add my grain of salt. Take it as a What If scenario if you will. While most of what is here might never be put forward again, it is still a possible interpretation of the no-longer-canon but once-canon material.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:Question, is the EBSIS a creation of Palladium, or is it/was it from some source material?

The "Eastern Bloc Soviet Independent States" are Palladium's creation. They were invented to pad the 1st Edition RPG, being a fairly unimaginative generic "evil Russians" faction... a fruit so low-hanging it was practically subterranean at the time the game was made.

It might have been at the time of creation, but it is interesting to note what are exactly the "Soviets", into the Robotech context of old. According to the old comics, as much as can be understood, the Berlin wall didn't fell in 1989. The august plot of 1991, against Gorbatchev, didn't fail, and the communists remained in power. This led to the Russian civil war against the Neo-Tsarists (inspired by the Russian monarchist party, a real thing), one of the many conflicts hinted at by Return to Macross.
This is especially relevant, when considering that this would have freed most of the SSRs, which might have wanted to keep their own socialism under their own reforms. In other words, when in the robotech context, "soviet" or "soviet bloc", mostly refers to the remainder of the COMECON, mostly excluding Russia, which would have lost most of its power. This "Soviet Bloc" continued its evolution through the mexican conflict with the Zapatist faction, and the ba'athist in the middle-east. With mostly Cuba and Ukraine at its head, amongst many many other small conflicts "having festered toward the boiling point". (Africa was a terrible place to be at the time.)
By the end of the GCW, according to Return to Macross #13, the internationalist put the end to the Neo-Tsarist rebellion, indicating that Russia never quite came back as the USSR giant it was. Instead, the Russian communist faction remaining, would have by then become a special economic zone under the "Neo-Marxist Bloc". Which I can only guess to be the Chinese, into this context. (They are after all contacted separately, when the seeds of the first UEG decides to implement their cease fire.)
So what you have, prior to the stabilization of the world by the happening of the ASS-1, is actually two globalist powers, trying to make sense of a plethora of proxy war gone wrong. The twist being that the Russian are no longer really a part of this, and their country would have been occupied forcefully by the late Internationalist forces.



In that light, I don't think it is fair to state that the EBSIS would be a cartoon variant of "Evil Russians". Not only this context gives us plenty to base off some Anti-UN activities, but it paint a very different portrait of the Russians than, let's say, James Bond.
By the time the UEG first came to power, it was money and scientist hungry for Macross Island. If most governing bodies of the time would have known why, canon material tells us that the people were kept in the dark. And so, people trying to get back their economies, after a myriad of conflicts, were oppressed into paying taxes to a not always recognized victor. (Some comics tells us, that the Western Alliance thought itself on the verge of defeat, when the SDF-1 came.) This means that Russia, which fell hard to the Neo-Tsarists using bio-weapons and liberating political dissident from gulags, ended-up oppressed into a new space race, instead of tending to its wounded and its failing behind agricultural sector...

Thus, the "communist" part, of the "Evil Russians", would be mostly out of the way. Even before the end of the Anti-UN war. Probably not, however, the strong anti-fascist roots of the Russian people. And considering the wide alliances with Zentraedi, otherwise mistreated by the A.S.C.; one might even be tempted to state that the EBSIS would be "good Russians / eastern Europeans", thus breaking the stereotype. (Yes, of course they are still pilling weapons and organizing expansion... but they have to entertain the Troodis and reconquer wasteland, like their competitors.) The fact that, by this point, other SSR would indeed be standing on equal terms with the once giant, is also a good way toward the confederate ideal of most of that part of the world, prior to the victory of the federated UEG. Nothing really forces the EBSIS to be oppressive, or riddled with the defects of the perestroika and glassnot. Nor do we know if the Vories are still making everyday like a black market festival. There is no longer any five years plans.
Furthermore, the generation starting this healing cultural process, would not really know of what came before. They, at most, would see it from the eyes of nostalgic old survivors, while still being a product of the UEG educational system themselves.

I personally think that, the cleansing and restauration of an otherwise tarnished political entity, is refreshing. It also plays a lot in the context of "historical oblivion", seen through much of the old comics. This all culminate into a Zentraedi historian, eventually trying to piece back the impossible, after the invid invasion. The EBSIS is a people without a past, it has been thorn from them, and they try to manufacture it from the broken dreams of their ancestors. Down-playing it, to "Evil Russians", is certainly missing a great opportunity to see them inside their own context.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:Also, same question for the Anti-Unification League(?).

The "Anti-Unification League" is Robotech's dub rename of the Anti-Unification Alliance faction that first appeared in Super Dimension Fortress Macross and would be the main antagonist in Macross Zero.

In Robotech, the Anti-Unification League is never fleshed out. Their one and only proper appearance was in From the Stars, where they were just cackling evil mooks who wanted to destroy the United Earth Government for no stated reason. The only identified members were spies who infiltrated the UEDF to sabotage its defense programs, T.R. Edwards and E.A. Leonard. The ending of the comic implies that there may not actually be any such organization, and that the whole thing may just be a false flag to justify the continued military buildup for Earth's defense.

I'm not going through the whole comic collection only for names... but Return to Macross alone had a bunch of these agents. While it was never truly shown from their standpoint, there seem to be a lot of individuals getting inspired to commit various acts, in the name of restored border lines. The gal from the dinner also supports some form of understanding for the movement, being mostly a strong desire for independence and the return of border giving the freedom of cultural identity. The biggest reason given though, why some of the anti-UN wouldn't be false flag, is that some people might have difficulties paying the increased taxes enforced by the new government. (Which might or might not add up... the economical context is left unexplored on purpose. We have no real idea of the damages caused to society in general, or the difficulties coming with this first reconstruction. A few flashbacks informs us of cities reduced to rubble, and orphans running the streets... but this is mostly used to imply a general idea of distress, rather than quantify it. A "Cyber-blitz" also happened, giving us a hint toward some economical crash, which might in turn put a shared weight once the world would be placed under one "restored" economy / industrial complex.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:In Macross, [...] The Anti-Unification Alliance was responsible for a number of heinous terrorist acts including the hijacking of the Oberth-class destroyer Tsiolkovsky and using it to destroy the returning Mars evacuation fleet (killing Misa's lover Riber Fruhling), destroying Grand Cannon II in Australia, multiple attacks on South Ataria Island, and the destruction of St. Petersburg, Russia using a thermonuclear reaction weapon. [...]

Robotech didn't really leave anything for the "Anti-Unification League" to do, since the rewrite presented the scenes that had previously belonged to the Unification Wars as a pre-1999 world war instead.

Then again, there is an attempt post 1999 of piracy onboard Armor 1, under the command of Captain Mayhew at the time. Said attempt to recuperate a lost Neo-Tsarist "chemical biological warfare agent", launched into a Pegasus shuttle. (Quite different from the master era one.) I think I remember also a sabotaged Grand Cannon, and a nuke somewhere in Africa or the middle east... (Could have been the RNU though.) But I am most certain of a few attacks on Macross Island, during the run of that particular series.

So while the Anti-UN war never was quite as fleshed out as the background for it, one does get the feeling it is way more police and counter-terrorism operations, rather than true warfare.
Interestingly enough, the taking over of Armor 1, is also issue 13, from September 1994. But I am at a loss to find a source, other than the Macross Chronicle (2008-2014), for the Tsiolkovsky incident. If it was inspired by a Macross source, this could mean the crew for Return to Macross had access to previously unpublished production material. Or... Like the use of Tsiolkovsky, Oberth, and others by Star Trek, this could simply be a coincidental parallel evolution.

Seto Kaiba wrote:The point you were replying to was me stating that, in Robotech, the official setting has little-to-nothing to offer a GM or RPG player outside of playing a soldier in one or more of the wars. If you want to do something else, you're basically stuck having to come up with all of it yourself. That absence of narrative options being what gave rise to nonsense padding inclusions like EBSIS.

Or you can use some Civilian OCCs, and use the war just as a backdrop to something else. Unless you are travelling in space for a long duration, which opens an unused field of the setting, but the tech would at least remain. True though, that there is no real going around the "in time of war", or "space travelling", of the setting. In extreme cases, you could use it as survival and reconstruction, but that is still post-war. Much like Macross might I add.
Both settings are very turbulent for the rights of minorities too. "Activism" could also be considered a background theme, if one must.
But I also find that, for some reason, all RPGs are very good at staging criminally flavoured campaigns. (And this can bring you to a lot of civilian spots.)

With a bit of imagination, and using a nearby genesis pit, one could even design a weird west scenario about supernatural monsters.
Or a hospital drama with aliens, if you are into that kind of stuff.
Forcing "only war", unto a campaign, is not necessarily the most Robotech thing to do.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:While the show itself doesn't go into detail, there is the Feudalistic Society that is said to have developed (again this is from the series).

Per HG, the show's dialog should not be taken as an infallible source of information as it contains a lot of errors... this being one of the most obvious ones, as there is very clearly nothing at all feudal about the society in the series. It's right up there for ridiculousness with the narrator's assertion the Invid are unicellular organisms.

The 1st edition RPG mentions a few "baronies" that begins to get out of the ASC's / RDF's control. And though that's not a lot, we can at least imply that non-military personnel are treated as second class citizens, under the ASC. The poor folks are kept in the dark about as much as the brass can get away with, which could be taken as a sign that the civilians are now more akin to a Neo-peasantry. We have no indication that the EBSIS would treat its people in the same way. In fact, if history is any indication by this point, the "Socialist" part of the EBSIS might well means that they get to be more socially egalitarians than the UEG (1st or 2nd of the name).
Sadly though, both points are too underdeveloped for much more than assumptions.

xunk16 wrote:[...] it is still a possible interpretation of the no-longer-canon but once-canon material.

In all honesty, what you have here is an interpretation of never-was-canon material that Harmony Gold freely admits was made without their oversight, involvement, or any kind of quality control over the contents.

xunk16 wrote:It might have been at the time of creation, but it is interesting to note what are exactly the "Soviets", into the Robotech context of old.

Really, the question that should be asked is if Robotech updated its official timeline to remove references to the Soviet Union after its dissolution in 1991 the way the OSM did.

However, it's still pretty much immaterial because the [Russian Federation / Soviet Union] was a founding member of the UEG and its territories and people were utterly annihilated in the First Robotech War. There was nobody to found, never mind populate, one new Soviet republic let alone a set of them. Or any other nation/group opposed to the United Earth Government.

xunk16 wrote:In that light, I don't think it is fair to state that the EBSIS would be a cartoon variant of "Evil Russians".

It's perfectly fair, because that's pretty much exactly how they're presented.

xunk16 wrote:I'm not going through the whole comic collection only for names...

Which is fine, because they wouldn't be relevant anyway... source citations from material that's officially considered "Robotech in name only" carry no weight.

Officially, the "Anti-Unification League" in Robotech was left high and dry by Robotech adapting Macross's Unification Wars as the "Global War", save for the From the Stars canon comic depicting them attempting to sabotage UEG defense programs in what may have been a false flag operation based on hints at the end of the comic, implying the organization itself may not exist at all except as a false flag operation by the UEDF to justify its continued arms buildup without revealing it was preparing for an alien invasion.

xunk16 wrote:Then again, there is an attempt post 1999 of piracy onboard Armor 1, [...]

This is a perfect example of how poorly written those old comics were. An act of piracy in 1999 aboard a ship that construction didn't even start on until 2003.

xunk16 wrote:Interestingly enough, the taking over of Armor 1, is also issue 13, from September 1994. But I am at a loss to find a source, other than the Macross Chronicle (2008-2014), for the Tsiolkovsky incident. If it was inspired by a Macross source, this could mean the crew for Return to Macross had access to previously unpublished production material. Or... Like the use of Tsiolkovsky, Oberth, and others by Star Trek, this could simply be a coincidental parallel evolution.

Plagiarism and copyright infringement do number among other reasons like "generally terrible quality" and "no creative oversight or coordination" in Harmony Gold's justification for disowning the old comics... so it wouldn't be surprising.

The Tsiolkovsky Incident has been a part of Macross's timeline from its earliest iterations, and can be found in series-contemporary publications. The most accessible internationally was the Macross: Perfect Memory book that came out a full decade before that comic. It's a big part of Bruno J. Global's backstory, since he was the commander of the destroyer Goddard that was responsible for hunting down and sinking the Tsiolkovsky after its hijacking. That infamous victory landed him in the captain's chair aboard the Macross.

xunk16 wrote:Or you can use some Civilian OCCs, and use the war just as a backdrop to something else.

But that requires you to invent the "something else" from scratch because the Robotech setting is so narrowly defined... and even then your options are pretty damned limited.

There's really nothing for civilians to do in the Macross Saga except try to live normally aboard the SDF-1 or live normally on Earth until the Zentradi roll up and kill them. In the Masters Saga, there's even less since there's only a few cities on the entire planet and they're all on lockdown with military protection details because of the war. In the New Generation, there aren't any civilians... there are Invid slaves/subjects on Earth and everyone in space is a soldier.

xunk16 wrote:Both settings are very turbulent for the rights of minorities too. "Activism" could also be considered a background theme, if one must.

... I'd question where you got THAT idea. The only time any kind of bigotry is ever on display, except Kaifun/Kyle's irrational hatred of soldiers, is towards aliens and that's mainly in Robotech as Macross strongly emphasized the "not so different" aspect of the Zentradi with the reveal of their common ancestry with humans. However, in Robotech, aliens living among humans tend to do a lot of dying-out offscreen too so it's not something that can really be explored.

xunk16 wrote:Forcing "only war", unto a campaign, is not necessarily the most Robotech thing to do.

It's the MOST Robotech thing to do. The franchise's installments are literally defined EXCLUSIVELY by which war they're depicting.

Even the most recent comics by Titan make it really REALLY obvious that Robotech is defined almost exclusively by its wars... so much so that Titan effectively classified all Robotech timelines prior to theirs as "bad future" timelines and theirs was defined by having an ending that didn't involve a genocide and jump straight into the next war.

Seto I am disagreeing with you. I do not think that just because because characters are military they have to be run in a war campaign as the focus of the story, sure war could be the back drop but the focus could be elsewhere.

EDIT: Then again what you might consider a war campaign might be different than myself or others.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Rainy Night....What I remember is that they don't show any air battle in this episode. (thou it's been a long time since I've watched it...) If I am incorrect in this so be it. But I speificly worded what Said to reflect what I remember.

The episode shows an Anti-Unification Alliance aerial attack on the base where Roy and Claudia were stationed at around 11 minutes in. It's the only appearance of the MiM-31 in animation.

Nice of you to explain to the new people the basic idea of the episode that was being talking about.

And the plane seamed to be familiar to me. It got int the RT2 macross book era book. But before that it was in the RT1 book 2, RDF Manual as the UF-14 Supersonic Interceptor.

ShadowLogan wrote:Seto I am disagreeing with you. I do not think that just because because characters are military they have to be run in a war campaign as the focus of the story, sure war could be the back drop but the focus could be elsewhere.

But at the end of the day, the war still dominates the story... which just validates my point, hence why I had to ask if you were disagreeing or not since your answer boiled down to "No, except yes".

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sambot wrote:At the time though the Russians were still fighting in Afghanistan. Plus the Cold War didn't end until 1991. Robotech came out in the mid 80's.

But none of that is remotely relevant to the point being made... except in that it demonstrates how utterly unimaginative the EBSIS concept was.

The same could be said about any other power though.

Well, yes and no... it's not actually clear when the Robotech timeline branches from our own. Circumstantial evidence from the canon comics could be used to suggest that it branched as far back as the 1940's. That too, is beside the point, though.

In Robotech, there was a worldwide cessation of hostilities in 1999 and world peace was effectively secured in 2005 when the United Earth Gov't was formed. Soviets as bad guys doesn't work in Robotech after 2005 because 1. the Soviet Union or Russian Federation is part of the UEG so they aren't hostile and 2. there aren't enough people left to have multiple states cropping up after the First Robotech War when the entire human population fits into a handful of lowrise towns in what used to be the Northwestern United States.

They weren't the old Soviets though. They were people returning to what was familiar. Soviets were familiar so they went with that. Plus in Robotech, Earths surviving population wasn't limited to lowrise towns in the Northwest United States. We just don't see it because the characters don't go there.

Eh... it's pretty explicitly and heavily mixed in the OVA. Sure, two of the named characters have Slavic names, but their nationality is never discussed and in D.D.'s case he may be Russian-American given that he mentored the explicitly-American Roy Focker during the Unification Wars. The leader of their ground forces was Arabic (his name's Hassan), and the mission's director was British (Dr. Hasford). Their rifles are a kludge of French and Russian, their VF is one codeveloped between (West) Germany, Israel, and Russia, their destroid is (West) German, their cannons are mainly Swedish, their optical weapons (West) German, Swedish missiles, etc. etc.

I didn't say they were Russian. I said they felt Russian. That the Ant-UN group could even get such high tech and such big equipment shows that not every country was 100% behind the UN.

In Macross, after the First Space War there's a population of ~1 million humans and ~8 million Zentradi, a bunch of undamaged space colonies at the lagrange points, an undamaged colony on the moon, and then emigrant fleets by the dozen leading to a robust interstellar civilization representing (by the 2040s) at least six humanoid species including humanity.

Yes, and they cloned everyone to put them in those fleets. And yes later humanoid species were discovered. Same as in Robotech but until that time it was just the Humans and Zentraedi who are genetically identical so just one.

No, it didn't... that's the point we're getting at here. No such thing ever happens in the Robotech TV series. There are no other governments on Earth after the First Robotech War. The UEG is the only show in town, and the series isn't even shy about why. After the First Robotech War, the UEG has a very literal monopoly on the essentials of life like food, potable water, medical commodities, etc. If you want to leave and start your own country with blackjack and hookers you have two options: "Starve to death" or "Reconsider".

If things were strictly limited to what was in TV there wouldn't be an Army of the Southern Cross because we didn't see any of it during the Macross Saga. Our view of what was going on Earth and even in space was limited to what the main characters were doing. And they were forced out of one city that didn't want their presence there.

Having a variety of nations isn't lazy in that sense... it's lazy in the sense that they couldn't come up with any way to add options that didn't break the show's setting. It's also lazy in the sense you meant because the only idea they could come up with was the kind of moustache-twirling evil Russians who haunted the McCarthyist Red Scare-era nightmares of baby boomers... barely a half-step up from literal Nazis or fictive options like Cobra.

I never got that the Russians were like that. They were just people who decided that joining the UN wasn't for them. It also wasn't just the Russians. There's also Argentina. There were African nations.

Well, no... as noted above it actually doesn't. None of that is part of the actual Robotech story. It's "throw it in" page count padding Palladium came up with that has no real basis in the series. There's the United Earth Government and then the Invid occupation and that's it.

You're referring to the official canon. Canon which has changed over time. In the old Robotech RPG canon the EBISIS was their own nation. Was it page padding? Sure but that doesn't make it less official as far as the RPG goes.

I mean, yeah... but alien invasion is basically all the story has to offer.

Earth is invaded and destroyed by the Zentradi. Then by the Robotech Masters. Then by the Invid. Inbetween those first two, some of the characters go into space and... fight against the Invid invasions of a bunch of other planets. It's gotten to the point where that, in the official canon, there aren't even any actual civilians after the Second Robotech War. Everyone on Earth is either a subject-collaborator or nominal slave under the Invid and the humans living in space explicitly have one and only one career path open to them: military service. The Zentradi are wiped out fighting Earth's wars for it, the Robotech Masters on Earth are just never mentioned again and probably were exterminated. None of the alien races the UEEF goes to such lengths to save ever contribute to the wars Earth is fighting directly unless you count the one that was secretly backstabbing them all along and became the fourth alien race to attempt a human genocide.

Robotech, as a setting, doesn't really offer a lot of alternatives to the war campaign for RPG players unless you add content that isn't in the series. The non-military character classes are largely decorative or for NPCs. There's nothing for players to do aside from fight the war until the New Generation era... and then, the only real options are "fight the war" or "play off-brand Mad Max". Even non-canon additions like EBSIS in 1e are nothing but another party to be at war with.

That's what I mean when I say it's not conducive to a wide variety of adventures.

Like I said, canon has changed. Even with current canon things outside the series have been added. Under the old canon there were still nations (mostly city states I'd guess) and plenty of civilians. I also thought that the reason non of the Sentinels races went to Earth was because there was a fear that those on Earth would see them as additional invaders. Not allies.

There's also lots of things one can do. Rescue missions. Exploratory missions. Salvage and Recovery missions. Humanitarian Missions. R&D Testing. All kinds of drama. It's just that war makes for more interesting games.

Spoiler:

Macross, on the other hand, very much IS conducive to a wide variety of adventures because its official setting is so much more diverse both in terms of places to go and people to meet (or be). Six sentient races, dozens of inhabitable planets that've been colonized, ancient ruins full of Sufficiently Advanced technology, and a thriving postwar culture to explore. You can have whole plots that don't involve war at all, and there are official examples that prove that it works. There's politican and philosophical dramas like Macross the Musiculture, which was the story of a wannabe professional dancer who abandoned his ambitions to pursue a career in politics as an advocate for government reform after a riot. There's sports dramas like Macross 7 Trash or Macross the Ride about athletes chasing fame and victory in high-stakes bouts. There's government conspiracy thrillers about sinister plans to brainwash people. There's dramas about musicians chasing fame as they launch their careers. Stories about space conservationists seeking to protect xenofauna from poaching. Ghost in the Shell-style ruminations about the nature of consciousness, whether being a cyborg makes you less of a "real" human, or whether artificial lifeforms should have a right to life. Tales of muck-raking journalists chasing the next big scoop and taking on the government propaganda machine. Adventurous archaeologists exploring ancient ruins full of near-magical lost technology and the occasional forbidden treasure or bit of knowledge man was not meant to know. Romances! School dramas! Gang violence! Super-hackers going toe-to-to with megacorps in cyberspace.

It covers a LOT of ground without stepping one toe outside the official setting.

That's all true. It also all happened after the original series ended. Going without additional sources, Robotech could cover all those things that Macross does. Many of those things did happen in Robotech. At least in the old canon. Others could have. Robotech really had so much untapped potential. Unfortunately it didn't happen. Which is a shame.

Making everyone a soldier was lazy.

Seto Kaiba wrote:OK, this one actually threw me a bit... this started out phrased like an objection, but barely two sentences in you've effectively conceded the point. Are you objecting or agreeing with me?

The point you were replying to was me stating that, in Robotech, the official setting has little-to-nothing to offer a GM or RPG player outside of playing a soldier in one or more of the wars. If you want to do something else, you're basically stuck having to come up with all of it yourself. That absence of narrative options being what gave rise to nonsense padding inclusions like EBSIS.

Are you talking about creating adventures for players to play? Isn't that what GMs do for all games, unless following a game already lade out?
Most of the games I've played were like that. Some printed adventure hooks or adventure books but mostly what ever the GM thought up.

Spoiler:

Espionage against who? The United Earth Government is the only show in town from 2005 to the Invid Invasion. Police work involving what? There's no evidence of organized crime in the TV series and the only disorganized criminals ever depicted are the ATAC 15th squad which means you're playing as the GMP and therefore the war campaign. Exploration means you're again just playing the war campaign because civilian spacecraft don't exist in Robotech. Given the number of acknowledged dialog errors in the series, building on something mentioned once in passing but never elaborated upon is not appreciably different from making something up whole cloth. Civilian-owned mecha aren't a thing at any point in Robotech either, nor are mecha martial arts. The music scene doesn't seem to be anything like the modern day one, just lounge singers and the like. I could go on but I think I've beaten my point to death by now.

The UEG being the show doesn't mean petty theft doesn't exist. It doesn't mean corporate espionage doesn't happen. And what about the Zentraedi workers who rebelled? Sure you call out the destroids when they're full size but the micron ones? Call the MPs or the Police.

You're also limiting yourself to the series. If we did that, nothing that doesn't happen inside the 36 episodes of Macross happen either. Since they are included, Why couldn't Mecha Su Dai be a thing in Robotect? There's full size Zentradi wrestling in Macross. There's also what Breetai did to Hikaru's/Rick's VF in hand to hand combat. Why can't the two be combined as a sport in Robotech?

And how can you say that there aren't any civilian owned mecha in Robotech? Most of Scott's band are civilians. None of them had their Cyclones taken away when they finally got to Reflex Point. There's also that one city guy with the Ghost Alphas. Nor do we know who all those wrecked mecha belong to when the group met Annie. And those are ones we know about in the show. There's still the rest of the world. So yeah, civilians own mecha.

As for exploration, how do we know there aren't civilian ships? We only see the military side of things. Just because the show is focused on the military doesn't mean that civilians aren't doing things.



Confining the side discussion to a Spoiler tag for ease of reading:

Spoiler:

ShadowLogan wrote:Except by 2014 we know that the UEG is starting to fracture, Monument City was granted autonomy that is in the series itseslf (though by 2029 its the Capital location of the UEG).

Or... we could take the simplest and most obvious explanation that the autonomy Monument City was granted was them being allowed to manage their own affairs under the UEG instead of having the UEG govern them directly. This isn't Monument City leaving the UEG, but the UEG telling Monument City that it has its act together enough that the UEG thinks it's ready to manage its own local affairs.

That is one explanation. The other is they're independent.

ShadowLogan wrote:While the show itself doesn't go into detail, there is the Feudalistic Society that is said to have developed (again this is from the series).

Per HG, the show's dialog should not be taken as an infallible source of information as it contains a lot of errors... this being one of the most obvious ones, as there is very clearly nothing at all feudal about the society in the series. It's right up there for ridiculousness with the narrator's assertion the Invid are unicellular organisms.

We do know that various nations formed though. Otherwise there wouldn't be an ASC. At least not in the old canon.

ShadowLogan wrote:The fact the UEEF acquired Bioroid Invid Fighters (which in the show are late model introduction) means the UEEF had to have acquired the stockpile from the RM fleet at Earth, which opens up the possibility that the UEEF transported not just Bioroids back to Tirol but also survivors (especially ones with technical knowledge to assist in R&D on their recovered technology). [...]

Or... simplest explanation... the Invid Fighter is a variant of a pre-existing design the Masters already had and the Bioroid Interceptors were based on that source design by the Tirolians the UEEF saved.

That would be my guess. The bioroid pilots in the Sentinels sure didn't act like the Master's bioroid pilots. Old canon I know but so it the EBSIS.

ShadowLogan wrote:They did contribute to the war against the Invid (Prelude).

Allegedly. And only in ways that were either unnecessary or irrelevant... like manufacturing support when the UEEF had at least one (allegedly multiple) factory satellites at their disposal.

None of them actually join the UEEF, pick up a gun, and fight. They cower behind the humans and offer token logistical support, if that.

I remember the factory falling apart and they were having trouble just keeping the Battle Pod lines working. I'm not sure they could completely refurbish a moon sized factory without a lot of help. I also remember a lot of sentinels aliens fighting in the comic books and novels. More than that would have required repairing their own infrastructures after the Invid's occupation. I also thought the reason most Sentinels didn't go to Earth was fear they'd be seen as invaders.

ShadowLogan wrote:Tirolians and Praxians superficially blend in with humans, so short of an outright statement that so-so is non-human, its possible they contributed manpower and we'd never notice.

With a few exceptions, the Tirolians have a ghastly inhuman pallor. The Praxians are a race of nine foot tall space amazons. Neither of those is blending in invisibly, and it's worth remembering that the UEEF has some evident organizational xenophobia going on in Prelude so it's unlikely that they would consider aliens trustworthy enough to include in their forces. Even if they could pass for human, all the cultural differences would give them away as inhuman immediately... and we got a goooood look at how the UEEF's base attitude is "the only good alien is a dead alien" in RTSC proper. I doubt that any Tirolians or Praxians want to put up with that open bigotry.