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I used the Fractal World Generator to create a planet for Robotech/Centurion/AD&D2e; instead of making a world just for Robotech, I wanted it to be interchangeable:

Notes about the design: the font is in Imperial Roman, so U's, are V's. It's Baker's World for Robotech; it's Bakar-III for Centurion/Legionnaire. That names are from random name generators; one of which, was a Robotech name generator I made years ago; it's simply American-Japanese names mixed. I used a Star Trek Name generator for the regions (Federation, Romulan and Vulcan). Going along with tradition, I used Latin-names based off of Mars on what the terrain was like for the region; the mountain-complex is called, "Mons", etc.

So, the world is the third planet in the Tau Ceti system. It has no moon, a 30-hour day, and it's 1/3 water; It's just in the habitable-zone. It's atmosphere is mostly argon, with a higher-concentration of oxygen than Earth; there is almost no greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Making this planet habitable was perplexing; argon is heavier than oxygen and should fill the lower regions, thereby causing suffocation to those who try to breathe. However, given the ocean/land contrast, rotation and heat, there is a lot of wind that constantly moves the air around; it's almost always windy here.

Being 2/3 land, it only rains on the eastern-shores of Oceanum. So, most of the planet is dry. It gets to a high of 50 degrees Celsius at the equator; the high-lands at Mons Sato, get about minus 11 degrees Celsius at night. (there's enough oxygen that a person can breathe at any altitude here). The average temperature is about 30 degrees Celsius. The southern hemisphere is cooler and experiences less highs and lows. There are massive dust-storms at times in the northern-hemisphere. They cause electro-magnetic radiation that can short out circuits.

There is a magnetic-sphere; Tau Ceti has an abundance of metallicity; it's high in iron and magnesium. Despite being almost ten-billion years old, it still has a magnetic-field.

Geology (Geology rocks!)

History; Baker's World started out as a water world, then, in a few billion-years, it developed plate-tectonics until a few billion-years ago, it stopped. The core is still molten, but there are few active volcanoes. Mons Sato and Mons Nar'th are a hot-spot not unlike Olympus Mons and Hawaii. Life has been on this world for ten-billion years; it's always been primitive, microbes, more primitive than on Earth. There has never been advanced-life here.

The surface is dotted with extinct volcanoes and impact craters. Tau. Ceti has a massive Oort cloud and it's not uncommon to see a comet in the sky, like, every night. The plateaus and highlands of the land-mass are flat, with lots of dust and sand. Very little water. In the lower-elevations, near Oceanum, the land is flat, flood-plain with most of the craters and volcanoes eroded away.

It's called Baker's World, after the scientist who first landed on it. The science-pod, came with robotics that built a colony for the expect-colonists that never came. Dr. Baker lived in this research-colony located near Mare Refly.


Locations

Geographical-Terms
Plantitia: Low-plain.
Mons: Mountain.
Vallis/Valles: Valley.
Tholus: Small, domed mountain, usually a volcano.
Patera: Crater.
Fossa/Fosse: Long, narrow-valley.
Labyrinthus: Intersecting valleys.
Vastitas: Vast, wide, low-land.
Planum: Plateau.
Rupes: Cliff.
Rima: Narrow Fissure.
Mare: Sea.
Terra: Land.

Four Regions:
Bareau Planum: The highest regions: Cold and dry.
Tarat Terra: Most of the land-mass: Hot and dry.
Siren Terra: Southern most land-mass: Cooler and more rain.
Oceanum: The southern ocean: Humid and hot at the equator, cooler at the poles.

Areas of note.
Ronin Komatsu Insula: continent sized island; rains a lot here.
Mare Refly: An equatorial-sea. Thought of as a, "New Mediterranean Sea", but it's very hot and humid there.
Mons Sato: The tallest mountain and highest-point; covered in snow.
Mons Nar'th: The second tallest mountain, also covered in snow.
Punnil Valles: A rift-valley between the two mountains.
Grulan Vastitas: Just south of Mare Refly; a little cooler and dryer. More hospitable.
Ringo Plantitia: The southern most landmass: home to Insunsami REF Base, with a garrison of 9,452 people.
Tapek Peninsula: Another southern landmass; receives a fair amount of rain.
Sinus Craler: The northern most bay of the sea.
Berra Rima: Cracked lands.
Rupes Telek: A massive-cliff region.
Sybek Fosse: Fissures from the rise of Bareau Planum.
Mag-Tirol: A Tirolian city-state, built atop a crashed Master's Starship. It may or may not be occupied. In Legionnaire, it's the site of a city-state, with iron-age technology, that operates the mines at Telong Tholus.
Telong Tholus: An active-volcano. In the Legionnaire universe, it's a slave-mine, mining laser-crystal. In Robotech, it's simply a mine.
Kin Nakamura: The name of a the region in which the REF ship by the same name, crashed: in Legionnaire, it's the location of a crashed TOG ship by the same name.
Insunsami Base: Also called, "Insun", is a massive planetary garrison-base for the REF. It's located in Siren Terra; it has a population of 9,452. Those aren't all military-personnel, but support and colonists supporting the military operations. Also included with Insun, is a launch base located at the equator, almost due north. There is a mag-lev line that leads right to it. Although the planet's rotation is a bit slower than Earth's, (30 hours), it has more gravity, (a fifth more), so it takes more fuel to lift off-world.

Just one more thing: While here, one might notice a mount that looks like a pyramid, or a ruin or a structure in various locations across Tarat Terra. Well, that's because, give or take a few millions up to a billion years ago, another alien-race built stone structures all over the planet. Due to erosion, the only surviving ones are in the dryest, least geologically-active region. There's not metals or technology; just shaped stone. This is from the Silent Universe, an awesome website from the late-90's that had Tau.Ceti as a desert planet with ancient, abandoned alien-tombs

People of note:
Dr. Baker: a UN scientist; first to come to this world: died of old age here.
Captain Bareau Kelen: first commander of the military expedition here in both scenarios.
Ronin Komatsu: a pilot that went AWOL, stole a fighter and crashed it on the islands named after him.
Lt. Comm. Kirrey Refly: lead the expedition to determine what happened to Dr. Baker. Named the small sea after her.
Commander Nar'th: an alien of an unknown species that established a base on that mountain.
Cadett Tiensa Punnil: Discovered plate-tectonics might be started up again after doing work in the valley named after her.
Ambassador Telong: Legionnaire: fell out of political-favor, was the most famous prisoner-slave to be sent to the mine when it first opened.
Cadett Pattay Grulan: died in the region named after her.
Commander Micheal Ito: The current commander of Isun.
Ringo Yamamoto: Civilian that determined the location of Isun.
Proconsul Telek: Legionnaire: sent to exile there.
Captain Roska Berra: Established a military training-ground at the Berra's terrain (Berra-Rima).


Here's the raw data:

hysics
Type Large iron/silicate
Radius 7737.77 km (1.21 x earth)
Surface Area 7.52 x 108 km2
Land Area 4.66 x 108 km2 (3.13 x earth)
Mass 1.06 x 1025 kg (1.78 x earth)
Density 5.48 g/cm3 (0.99 x earth)
Composition 38.0% iron, 30.6% oxygen, 17.8% silicon, 13.4% magnesium, 0.3% other metals, trace other elements
Gravimetry
Gravity 11.80 m/s2 (1.21 x earth)
Escape Velocity 13.51 km/s
Rotation
Period 30.03 hours
Axis Tilt 16.56 °
Hydrosphere
Water 39 %
Ice 0 %
Atmosphere
Type Standard breathable
Pressure 116.43 kPa (1.15 x earth)
Composition 72.4% argon, 27.6% oxygen, trace other gases
Climate
Type Standard
Min Temp 251 K (-21 °C)
Avg Temp 303 K (30 °C)
Max Temp 322 K (49 °C)
Biosphere
Chemistry Carbon
Lifeforms Prokaryotic microbes
Civilization
Type Military Garrison
Population 9452
Tech Level Interplanetary (nuclear fusion, space colonies, nanotechnology)
Special
Features Electromagnetic storms

Now you need to flesh out the artificial aspects of it.....a more in-depth description of the colony(ies), available technology, economy, sorts of equipment in use. Is its. top-line garrison protecting very important assets, is to keep an eye on the Tirolains, or is it considered a rimp back of nowhere assignment with downgraded equipment?

The remains of the RM Mothership, a robot-built and under-occupied colony, and ancient ruins just INVITE adventure hooks, alien world creepiness, and shenanigans(nervous folks shooting at imagined noises and almost frying their own people, for example).

taalismn wrote:Now you need to flesh out the artificial aspects of it.....a more in-depth description of the colony(ies), available technology, economy, sorts of equipment in use. Is its. top-line garrison protecting very important assets, is to keep an eye on the Tirolains, or is it considered a rimp back of nowhere assignment with downgraded equipment?

The remains of the RM Mothership, a robot-built and under-occupied colony, and ancient ruins just INVITE adventure hooks, alien world creepiness, and shenanigans(nervous folks shooting at imagined noises and almost frying their own people, for example).

I'm working on a map of the initial base (Insun); just deciding on the graphics' sets to use. There's all sorts of strange plots I can unleash such as the Zentraedi were once the Masters. etc. (What a twist!).

The Invid Flower of Life probably can't grow here. Thanks to the magnetic field, and the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere, there is an Ozone-layer, so there can be life on land; I was worried about a potential lack of CO2 in the atmosphere; it states other gases are trace amounts, well, on Earth carbon-dioxide is also a, "Trace-gas", but with the competition of the alien-microbes, it would be harsh. The soil lacks nutrients given the type of microbes in the soil. They can break down and provide nutrients, but not like on Earth.

Peacebringer wrote: There's all sorts of strange plots I can unleash such as the Zentraedi were once the Masters. etc. (What a twist!).

Not a twist really. The Zentreadi in the 2E RPG are based on Tirolian DNA, Dolza's history of the Zentreadi supports the notion (I don't have the quote handy, but it amounts to the Zentreadi originally being normal size but grew to their current size due to protoculture).

ShadowLogan wrote:Not a twist really. The Zentreadi in the 2E RPG are based on Tirolian DNA, Dolza's history of the Zentreadi supports the notion (I don't have the quote handy, but it amounts to the Zentreadi originally being normal size but grew to their current size due to protoculture).

Over the years, I kind of inferred that. What if, they were all part of an ancient caste-system; the Tirolians were the support-caste that supported the various Zentraedi wars until one or a few with psychic powers were able to control the Zentraedi?

Peacebringer wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Not a twist really. The Zentreadi in the 2E RPG are based on Tirolian DNA, Dolza's history of the Zentreadi supports the notion (I don't have the quote handy, but it amounts to the Zentreadi originally being normal size but grew to their current size due to protoculture).

Over the years, I kind of inferred that. What if, they were all part of an ancient caste-system; the Tirolians were the support-caste that supported the various Zentraedi wars until one or a few with psychic powers were able to control the Zentraedi?

Heck of an AU over the canonical version that the Zentraedi were a genetically-engineered labor force that then got turned into military force when the Robotech Masters emerged and took over the Tirolian Republic.

Psychic control seems to the province of the more 'pure' Tirolian clone society(and the rule of Three), where music may be a channel of psychic control(promoting order in the clones, but apparently being disruptive with the Zentraedi).
While the canon version of the Masters generally seemed to control their Zentraedi minions through reputation, superior firepower(or at least backdoors in the technology given the Zentraedi), there might be certain specialized Zentraedi units who are controlled more directly by special Tirolian psychic 'handlers' in a more 'hands-on' role.

A twist on canon might be to have a cut-off group of Tirolians enslaved by their Zentraedi bodyguards and made to service the giants' equipment. Then one or more of the Tirolians, after a few generations(or maybe just one or two, depending on any mutagenic factors in the environment) of slavery, acquire psychic abilities and begin to turn them on their overlords, making small changes at first, but gradually reasserting control over their former minions.

When the REF stumbles across these folks, they're faced with the situation of either supporting the Tirolians overcome their Zentraedi enslavers, or fight the Tirolians who, it can turn out, or at or above Garudan levels fo psychic ability, and exhibit all the signs of full-blown megalomania, wanting to first conquer the Zentraedi, then re-establish the empire, starting with mind-dominating the REF force that discovered them!

Peacebringer wrote:What if, they were all part of an ancient caste-system; the Tirolians were the support-caste that supported the various Zentraedi wars until one or a few with psychic powers were able to control the Zentraedi?

I think that doesn't work, Zor is credited with the creation of Protoculture/Robotechnology (Muscia and one of the Masters tells Zor this, but I don't have the quotes handy). No one considers Zor a Zentreadi either AFAIK. So the Zentreadi would spin-off from the Tirolians, at least to make everything work in the dialogue.

taalismn wrote:Heck of an AU over the canonical version that the Zentraedi were a genetically-engineered labor force that then got turned into military force when the Robotech Masters emerged and took over the Tirolian Republic.

Is the canonical version still the Zentreadi are miners turned warriors? The only place I recall this was the case was with the Novels. The 2E RPG just took the view they are GE-Tirolians created straight as military.

ShadowLogan wrote:[
Is the canonical version still the Zentreadi are miners turned warriors? The only place I recall this was the case was with the Novels. The 2E RPG just took the view they are GE-Tirolians created straight as military.

The comics too, before the Shadow Chronicles reboot...though they never explained how a gas giant like Fantoma was supposed to have a surface....Or was Fantoma a proper gas giant? I think there was some fan speculation that Fantoma hosted floating continents like the one that appeared in Jupiter in the original Space Battleship Yamato(this was later retconned in the recent updated version to actually be a part of the Gamilon homeworld's surface that got anti-grav-lifted into orbit to become part of Desslock's space station HQ, then was detached and sent as a support part of the Earth invasion force)*

*The remake also got rid of the Plutonian cryogenic 'blobsters' that really had no relevance to the story aside from being 'cute/ugly alien critters'.

The whole notion of the giant-size Zentreadi being ideal for high-gravity worlds is actually the opposite, you'd want "dwarfs" for those conditions ("giants" works with lower gravity).

While it has been a long time since I read the Sentinels Novels (never read the old comics), Fantoma when it was written might be thought of as a gas giant planet (which can have a solid core) though I think today it might end up being more properly classified as a "Super Earth".

ShadowLogan wrote:The whole notion of the giant-size Zentreadi being ideal for high-gravity worlds is actually the opposite, you'd want "dwarfs" for those conditions ("giants" works with lower gravity).

... Squats? HERESY!

*BLAM!*

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:The whole notion of the giant-size Zentreadi being ideal for high-gravity worlds is actually the opposite, you'd want "dwarfs" for those conditions ("giants" works with lower gravity).

... Squats? HERESY!

*BLAM!*

Squats were just too damn popular. They were the Tau of their day. Adeptus Mechanicus just couldn't tolerate the little wrench monkeys who had a lot more FUN riding around on their power trikes than the stuffy toaster-worshippers could stand.

ShadowLogan wrote:.

taalismn wrote:Heck of an AU over the canonical version that the Zentraedi were a genetically-engineered labor force that then got turned into military force when the Robotech Masters emerged and took over the Tirolian Republic.

Is the canonical version still the Zentreadi are miners turned warriors? The only place I recall this was the case was with the Novels. The 2E RPG just took the view they are GE-Tirolians created straight as military.

Iirc it is mentioned as a sort of aside in dialog during the love and war comic. But it just establishes that they were made as miners.. not whether they were giants at the time.

I could totally see them being made as sort of early cloning efforts, engineered workers. Which when they were made a military got turned into giants as a force multiplier and terror tactic.

glitterboy2098 wrote:I could totally see them being made as sort of early cloning efforts, engineered workers. Which when they were made a military got turned into giants as a force multiplier and terror tactic.

That would have made much more sense. Once you already have a high gravity / heavy labour work force, if you can inflate them without loosing much of their characteristics, then I guess it's worth a try. To be fair, some of the old comics had the Masters creating a whole workforce of regular sized clones before the zentraedi themselves. Certainly less alien than : "purposefully solving the biological problems and physical constraints of giants, in high g, just for saving on some heavy machinery". (Then having to build giant tools and ship for them anyway...) Gotta love how this size thing made some kind of childish sense (bigger planet, bigger people), until any scientific logic was applied to it.

Come to think of it, is there any real advantages to the zentraedi being giants? Would it protect them, in some measure, from atrophy in low-g? Was this all only an offensive modification since the start? Or is the "giant miner" explanation, from robotech, the only attempt to hand-waive that incredible height standard?

the page in question:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Aumg7d ... sp=sharing
(the previous page has a tirolian looking at tube with a fetus of a zentreadi that is bigger than he is, and saying "they start so small")

as far as the advantage of being a giant? nothing that i can think of, beyond the fact that the biological reengineering required to handle the increased size and such making them incredibly durable. thus why i suspect that the macronization aspect came later.

also iirc the idea that the zentreadi fought the invid at all was never broacvhed in the show proper.. so the idea of the zents fighting the invid would be traced to this comic in the current canon.

if the invid were already using the scout and trooper mecha at that time, it could well be that making them giants was meant to let them deploy "infantry" that could match the basic invid trooper and shock trooper in combat, letting their pods and PA serve as force multipliers/support units on the ground. (still, the size discrepancy with tiny invid and giant zents makes the mental image of a zentreadi vs invid battle kinda odd.)

WRT Zentradi origin:
I'm not sure how much sense miners-become-soldiers makes as a concept. If you're capable of genetic engineering, you could create miner slaves, and then you could create warrior slaves, but why should there be much relation between the two?

ESalter wrote:WRT Zentradi origin:
I'm not sure how much sense miners-become-soldiers makes as a concept. If you're capable of genetic engineering, you could create miner slaves, and then you could create warrior slaves, but why should there be much relation between the two?

You grow these huge hulking laborers who can withstand hostile environments, crushing gravities, privation, they're string enough to carry normal-sized ore cars by themselves, they're fast and agile enough to avoid being crushed by falling equipment or avalanches...you have a whole colony-worth of them ready at hand.
Now, suppose you're a despotic government faction just waiting for the opportunity to cast aside all pretensions of heeding the old regime constitution and start implementing your own perfect society. You can wait while you build up a new army of specially-engineered soldiers, which may take too long and too much hassle ferreting away materials and hiding stuff in the budget..or you can, with some reprogramming, quickly turn your huge hulking laborers into shock troops to take over, let you take full power, and then you can build your specialized troops at your leisure.
People are going to question new military labs going full-production mode close to home. Not so much if the pre-existing clone laborer plants offworld step up production and transports start moving the clone-workers around.

The Robotech Masters probably did both; they converted their big galoot labor-clones into soldiers to shock and awe the populace and scare their offworld rivals, while laying the groundwork for their Triumvirate Guard clones and even more specialized and covert clone types. Once they were in full control, the Zentraedi were further trimmed to produce their caste system and clone lines like Khyron's and Miriya's, while they established another caste system around the Triumvirates that became a separate society from the Zentraedi and the remaining old-style free birth Tiresians living in their gilded cages.

presumably there would also be the question of available resources.. we know that the protoculture they had was a somewhat sustainable resource with zor's matrix, but presumably there would still be the issue of running through the existing stockpiles too fast if they used it willy nilly. especially while building a large empire reliant on that resource for defense and stellar transport. it could well be that they created a slave-race of clones early on.. then as their empire expanded more and more of their labor work could be foisted onto their subject-species, so they reprocessed their disposable labor-clones into disposable soldiers to make use of an existing resource and cloning infrastructure rather than develop a whole seperate line of clones for the job and get stuck with a mass of otherwise obsolete laborers as well.

(personally i rather like the idea that the cloning was something they developed *before* they found protoculture, and the first ur-zentreadi being created in that time as well as just an engineered labor caste of tirolians. then after the discovery of protoculture and the study of invid biology and so on, they come up with the way to macronize them for use as living cargo movers and such.. then when they decide to militarize them they just made the giant size the default.)

taalismn wrote:You grow these huge hulking laborers who can withstand hostile environments, crushing gravities, privation, they're string enough to carry normal-sized ore cars by themselves, they're fast and agile enough to avoid being crushed by falling equipment or avalanches...you have a whole colony-worth of them ready at hand.
Now, suppose you're a despotic government faction just waiting for the opportunity to cast aside all pretensions of heeding the old regime constitution and start implementing your own perfect society. You can wait while you build up a new army of specially-engineered soldiers, which may take too long and too much hassle ferreting away materials and hiding stuff in the budget..or you can, with some reprogramming, quickly turn your huge hulking laborers into shock troops to take over, let you take full power, and then you can build your specialized troops at your leisure.
People are going to question new military labs going full-production mode close to home. Not so much if the pre-existing clone laborer plants offworld step up production and transports start moving the clone-workers around.

That makes a lot of sense as a story, but that story isn't part of any previous version of Robotech that I'm aware of. IIRC, the miners-to-soldiers element is never really explained, it's just treated as a given.

glitterboy2098 wrote:presumably there would also be the question of available resources.. we know that the protoculture they had was a somewhat sustainable resource with zor's matrix, but presumably there would still be the issue of running through the existing stockpiles too fast if they used it willy nilly. especially while building a large empire reliant on that resource for defense and stellar transport. it could well be that they created a slave-race of clones early on.. then as their empire expanded more and more of their labor work could be foisted onto their subject-species, so they reprocessed their disposable labor-clones into disposable soldiers to make use of an existing resource and cloning infrastructure rather than develop a whole seperate line of clones for the job and get stuck with a mass of otherwise obsolete laborers as well.

You have an ancient, omnipotent civilization with an enormous army of giant warrior clones, and then you find the history of these warrior clones has them created as part of a cost-saving measure. Logically, it makes perfect sense; aesthetically, I don't think much of the idea. The history of the Robotech Civilization, as presented in "Khyron's Revenge," was, to my mind, thematically about hubris, not contingencies.



My difficulties with the miners-to-soldiers idea go double for normal-sized-miners-to-giant-soldiers. I don't see how turning normal-sized-miners into giants is any cheaper or easier or sneakier than starting from scratch. (It surely can't just be a matter of feeding them more.)

xunk16 wrote:Come to think of it, is there any real advantages to the zentraedi being giants? Would it protect them, in some measure, from atrophy in low-g? Was this all only an offensive modification since the start? Or is the "giant miner" explanation, from robotech, the only attempt to hand-waive that incredible height standard?

In Robotech? Not really, no...

All of the alien races in Robotech are humanoid and approximately human-sized plus or minus a few feet. Even the MOSPEADA artwork that became the basis for the Invid Regent and others was an approximately humanoid lifeform all of about five feet tall. Not a lot of utility in a 33 foot tall clone soldier when the galactic statistical average height is hovering somewhere around 5 foot 10. It doesn't really jive with the Invid mecha either, since in scale to a statistically average 1.8m-tall human if that human were standing in for a full-size Zentradi soldier, the Invid Scout mecha would be only 18 inches tall. That's slightly smaller than the statistically average full-term newborn (at 20 inches). The Invid Trooper would be only about 2 foot 7 (from its Infopedia size, OSM is bigger), making them about the size of a 2-3 year old kid. So an army of giants would be stuck fighting against either an army of Lilliputians (infantry on foot) or an army of toddlers (Invid mecha) at best. Even the Masters Bioroids would only be about 3 foot 9 (per RT size), or about the size of a five year old. They would be excessively large for any purpose.

(Even in the OSM it isn't completely clear why the Protoculture decided a 10m tall humanoid was the way to go except that they used their own DNA as a starting point and it enabled them to be made superhumanly strong and resilient. The ability to kick down your enemy's entire house instead of just his front door probably counts extra in intimidation tho.)

xunk16 wrote:Come to think of it, is there any real advantages to the zentraedi being giants? Would it protect them, in some measure, from atrophy in low-g? Was this all only an offensive modification since the start? Or is the "giant miner" explanation, from robotech, the only attempt to hand-waive that incredible height standard?

As Seto mentions, there really isn't any apparent advantages to being giant size, and the giant miner explanation doesn't really work.

The only reason I can see the Zentreadi having been engineered to the size they where, is because giant-size aliens where an issue (500,000 years ago when the Masters are said to have first created the Zentreadi). While we only have information on a handful of races, all of which appear to be "regular size" in the 21st Century (Earth Calendar). They could be representative of the galaxy at large in terms of size, but they might also be misleading (just look at Polls for politics, with a given party an issue might have high score, but against the larger population it is much smaller).

It should be noted that the Invid form we see in the series need not be their original contact form. The Invid could have been much bigger back in the day and evolved to their smaller stature because of the loss of the FoL/PC would allow them to make their supplies of the stuff to last longer.

ShadowLogan wrote:

xunk16 wrote:Come to think of it, is there any real advantages to the zentraedi being giants? Would it protect them, in some measure, from atrophy in low-g? Was this all only an offensive modification since the start? Or is the "giant miner" explanation, from robotech, the only attempt to hand-waive that incredible height standard?

As Seto mentions, there really isn't any apparent advantages to being giant size, and the giant miner explanation doesn't really work.

The only reason I can see the Zentreadi having been engineered to the size they where, is because giant-size aliens where an issue (500,000 years ago when the Masters are said to have first created the Zentreadi). While we only have information on a handful of races, all of which appear to be "regular size" in the 21st Century (Earth Calendar). They could be representative of the galaxy at large in terms of size, but they might also be misleading (just look at Polls for politics, with a given party an issue might have high score, but against the larger population it is much smaller).

It should be noted that the Invid form we see in the series need not be their original contact form. The Invid could have been much bigger back in the day and evolved to their smaller stature because of the loss of the FoL/PC would allow them to make their supplies of the stuff to last longer.

Then perhaps, the Zentraedi were not created, but discovered.

Space, the Master's principle environment, is deadly in reality. Make a mistake, you and your coworkers die.

The Zentraedis' size my have been a problem; the way nervous-systems work and size, it make have taken a few seconds for a Zentraedi's reflex to travel through their body to move their foot.

Half a million years is a long, long, long long time; longer than information systems (computers), can exist. The origins are probably a myth that slowly turned into a fact.

If protoculture could evolve once, then it should have evolved again and again on various world through out the galaxies. As soon as Earth was capable of supporting life, we have evidence of life. Protoculture along with life my be a natural-process.

And the fact the alien Zentraedi and Masters' look human, is probably due to marketing than anything else. If the Zentraedi were truly alien and looked like giant, floating octopuses, that would sing in battle, would any Japanese watch Macross?

Peacebringer wrote:Then perhaps, the Zentraedi were not created, but discovered.

Robotech has always been pretty insistent on "created"... in keeping with the OSM they adapted the Macross Saga from.

Peacebringer wrote:Half a million years is a long, long, long long time; longer than information systems (computers), can exist.

Human-built ones, sure... but in the OSM the ancient Protoculture's tech was effectively Ragnarok-proof and would run forever unless battle damage forcibly stopped it.[sup]1[/sup]

Robotech seems to have stuck with that with respect to some things like the factory satellites, and the Robotech Masters themselves say some rather leading things about achieving functional or literal immortality that may mean some of them (mentally, if not biologically) are that old or older.

Peacebringer wrote:And the fact the alien Zentraedi and Masters' look human, is probably due to marketing than anything else. If the Zentraedi were truly alien and looked like giant, floating octopuses, that would sing in battle, would any Japanese watch Macross?

It's more in service of the "not so different" anti-war message in their respective stories.




1. In Macross, the factory satellites supplying the Protoculture's Zentradi forces have been in continuous operation for over 500,000 years by the time of the original series and are said to be able to run indefinitely until or unless battle damage stops them. The Glaug battle pods that Quamzin operates in the original series are at least280,000 years old. The factory satellites that built the Glaug for the Boddole Zer main fleet were destroyed 280,000 years ago and the pods Quamzin uses were recovered from a storage depot 3,700 years before the events of the series, meaning not only are they over a quarter million years old they were left to collect dust for that same span of time before being put into service. In the sequels, humanity encounters quite a few more examples of alien tech that's 500,000+ years old and still working like the Protoculture colony ship in DYRL?, the ancient Protoculture computer on Lux in Macross 7, the many different Protoculture ruins that were found on Uroboros in Macross 30, and the Delta Wave System and a still-working Protoculture warship in Macross Delta.

Peacebringer wrote:Then perhaps, the Zentraedi were not created, but discovered.

No, it is pretty well established that the Zentreadi are created in both Robotech and Macross, the main difference is by who between the two settings.

Peacebringer wrote:Half a million years is a long, long, long long time; longer than information systems (computers), can exist. The origins are probably a myth that slowly turned into a fact.

While I suspect some of that historical period is in fact a distortion in Robotech due to the Masters identical human DNA (modern homosapiens are just not that old), and I can not attest to SDF:M (or the Macross 2/DYRL Universe). Actually there is at least one method of information storage that could work for the time period (5D Quartz Crystal Storage, it is estimated to have such a long lived lifespan).

Peacebringer wrote:And the fact the alien Zentraedi and Masters' look human, is probably due to marketing than anything else. If the Zentraedi were truly alien and looked like giant, floating octopuses, that would sing in battle, would any Japanese watch Macross?

The Zentreadi and Masters do not just look human, they are at a genetic level identical to Terran modern Homosapiens (note Zentreadi drift between identical to nearly identical, but the Masters only get the identical treatment in dialogue). How Earthlings and Tirolians (Masters) are so closely genetically related is never elaborated upon in Robotech, but it stands to reason the Zentreadi are offshoots of the Tirolians (based on dialogue).

Seto covered the SDF:M/SDC:SC OSM aspects in his spoiler.

As for giant floating octopus replacements, yes I think people in Japan would still watch Macross, though it might find a home with another genre of Japanese Animation aimed at adults.

ShadowLogan wrote:While I suspect some of that historical period is in fact a distortion in Robotech due to the Masters identical human DNA (modern homosapiens are just not that old), and I can not attest to SDF:M (or the Macross 2/DYRL Universe).

This particular chronological/genetic inconsistency in Robotech is a product of joining up two orphaned plot threads.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Zentreadi and Masters do not just look human, they are at a genetic level identical to Terran modern Homosapiens (note Zentreadi drift between identical to nearly identical, but the Masters only get the identical treatment in dialogue). How Earthlings and Tirolians (Masters) are so closely genetically related is never elaborated upon in Robotech, but it stands to reason the Zentreadi are offshoots of the Tirolians (based on dialogue).

Yeah, this particular conundrum comes from Robotech walking back the original Macross's plot about humanity's shared alien origin and also writing around one of the darker plot points in the original Southern Cross...



So they rattled around between a few different explanations like bio-androids and clones but never really revisited what they'd said about them being genetically identical to humans.

As far as the genetics thing goes... I've generally figured that the masters and zents were very close to identical, but not 100%. I'd just assume the initial report was made using human genome project data and was initial data, and later refinement found additional differences not noticed in the initial, less precise, examinations. (After all the zents would have a fair bit of difference to accommodate the size accomodations and such.. but those might be replacing what in the human genome is "junk DNA".)

I'd still have them far closer than something like a chimpanzee. So tirolian and zents (and praxians) are all species withing the genus Homo, and possibly subspecies of Homo sapiens.

(I tend to assume that some sort of analog to macross's protoculture, Halo's forerunners/ancient humans, or Stargates Ancients/lantians existed in RT's distant history, and was the common ancestor of all the human type races. Given the look of the haydonites, I'd be tempted to pull a BSG approach and have the bots made by said ancient race as well.)