GM's, how would you rule this?

[TheEvilDM]

Hey folks..

Just had an interesting question from a player as we are starting the campaign. We are playing Palladium Fantasy 1e (yes 1e) and I have a player who's going to be a Summoner, cool. NOW here is where the question comes into play

he wants to pre-draw circles of protection and various others on say light carpets or blankets enough for himself to stand in, no one else. Carry them around and toss them out as needed.

My first thoughts on this was, "okay, that's interesting but..."

- Blankets or carpets can get heavy, so you'd probably need a way to store them and carry them.. Encumbrance factor here.
--- Also having certain ones on you, how many will you carry? and realize that it would take some time to pull it out and then stand on it.
- after a certain amount of time they would need to be refreshed due to "wear and tear"
- weather conditions could affect the circles... such as heavy rainfall would/could destroy a circle after a bit.
- Spells and attacks of fire would/could destroy such things as well
- Component factor here as well, would you. have what's needed to create/refresh things?

Anything else I am missing here?

I have no made a decision on this yet, I told him I would read up and get back to him. I don't like saying no or stifling a player creativity, but sometimes players like to bend the rules for a class that wouldn't work like this.

Thoughts? how would you rule?

thanks

[kiralon]

I'd say sure, give the circle on a carpet a small chance of failure as the ingredients have to be an unbroken line, and even a break invisible to the naked eye can reduce his protection to 0. I would also mention this.
Get a wagon.

[TheEvilDM]

I'd say sure, give the circle on a carpet a small chance of failure as the ingredients have to be an unbroken line, and even a break invisible to the naked eye can reduce his protection to 0. I would also mention this.
Get a wagon.

Good point.. and also a wagon that will be subjective to getting blown up, set on fire and maybe even stolen. Hey Bandits don't know what's there, it might be worth SOMETHING to someone, otherwise they'll just throw it out

[Veknironth]

Well, there are a lot of complications. The main one I see is the components. Each circle has a specific set of ingredients that it requires for drawing the circles. Most of those aren't going to adhere very well to a carpet or rug. Some of them require liquids which are going to dry up so they won't work. I don't think dried blood on a piece of cloth is the same as drawing a circle in blood. Things drawn in charcoal or chalk are going to have those powdery substances fall off of the fabric and be usless.

Carrying the items would be cumbersome, unless they're on a very light fabric. Of course, that flimsy fabric is going to be very susceptible to damage. An assailant could simply slash, or burn the fabric. Hell, they could just flip the fabric edge over and ruin the circle. This all assuming that there is no wind that blows this dainty circle fabric around. A sturdier fabric would weigh the summoner down, and take up room on his or her person. That would limit the number of items one could bring with one, assuming all of the above problems were mitigated. There would also need to be some sort of organizational principle so that the summoner could select the correct rug or carpet.

Now, let's assume you allow the PC to somehow affix the circile material to this fabric, transport the fabric, and have it on his or her person available for quick use. There are still concerns. First is how long does it take to root around in the bag, find the right fabric piece, unfurl it, and then power it up? Is that 3 attack actions? A full minute? Do you need to roll to find the proper one? Do you have to make a strike or PP save to unfurl the fabric right? What if it doesn't unfurl completely? How many times have you been able to drop even a small table cloth without messing it up? The circle is a two dimensional figure. If you have something with a little mass rolled up, it might not lie flat. If the edges are curled is it still a circle? It is now a very wide half-pipe? What if the ground isn't even?

-Vek
"The idea sounds unworkable to me."

[kiralon]

All i can see is the summoner getting rolled up in his carpet like a sushi roll and getting eaten by a demon.

Honestly, due to the dislike of summoners, having permanent evidence of your malfeasance probably isn't the best idea, and rubbing it out /cleaning each time is probably best if you don't want to be surprised by the spanish inquisition.

[Warshield73]

Without anything in PF saying yes or no I have to go by other fictions and they are pretty universally no.
In Dresden files his circle is copper laid into the concrete foundation of his lab and he is worried about a stray hair disrupting it.
In Supernatural scuffing a circle with your shoe is enough to break it.
Another book series I read in high school the sorceress used glue to hold her circle components in place.

I just don't see how you make something like this portable without breaking the lines or disrupting the ingredients. I would say no. Blanks of wood might work but that is hard to carry.

Honestly, due to the dislike of summoners, having permanent evidence of your malfeasance probably isn't the best idea, and rubbing it out /cleaning each time is probably best if you don't want to be surprised by the spanish inquisition.

True, these rugs might get you burned at the stake.

All i can see is the summoner getting rolled up in his carpet like a sushi roll and getting eaten by a demon.

I think I am going to use this as the backstory for an NPC too good.

[Kraynic]

I (of course) can't find it now, but I was under the impression that the minimum size for a circle was 10 ft. diameter. Did I imagine that, or is that actually in the books somewhere? I don't see it in the Summoner or circle descriptions, or in the Q&A in Book 3: The High Seas. If that minimum size is in there somewhere, then a bunch of 10' square bits of canvas would get pretty ungainly in a hurry, even if you were to say that rolling/unrolling it didn't damage the circle.

[TheEvilDM]

thank you for the wonderful thoughts and ideas, which I brought to the player's attention, which shut him down quickly on this idea. I told him, I don't like to say no, BUT here are some factors most of which I described.. but Warshield73 had some great examples that really made him go, "oh yeah, good point" -- SO thank you. I was super worried about the class being abused.. thank you to all

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would put some requirements on making a portable magic circle.
- the circle and sigils need to be sewn on as patches or as embrodery, and the summoner would need to make it himself to make the magic 'stick' to the cloth.
-that some of the components would need to be 'refreshed' every often, or between uses.

To avoid some of the pitfalls...
-use fabric like bed sheets. lighter and more compact. Silk would be the best fabric to keep things light. thou you'd need the next suggestion even more.
-get with a written rune magic user, to put a 'stick in place' magic along the edge of the sheet so it stays down.
-oil skin bags/pouches to put the cloth circles in to keep them from getting dirty. ether individually with label stitchings or one for all.

size....they can be made any size....it is that the larger the circle the more people it can protect/effect.

[ShadowLogan]

While I am not familiar with 1E, so this is from a 2E view point, but it does sound like your player might want to look at playing a Diabolist.

[Library Ogre]

Generally, I'm leery of "I made a circle on a carpet". There are a few circles for which that's ok, but it depends highly on the material needed to make the circle. A de-energized circle is vulnerable, and I'd also lean towards the non-circle parts of the carpet being vulnerable. You'd need to depower the circle when you move it, or who knows what would happen.

One I've used before is keeping an energized circle in a wagon, which I think is a bit more doable.

[Zer0 Kay]

What happens if you use a carpet of adhesion sigil that has woven into the carpet with silver thread (making it permanent IIRC) on the areas where materials are supposed to be placed? When trapped by a carpet of adhesion are liquids able to evaporate?

[TheEvilDM]

What happens if you use a carpet of adhesion sigil that has woven into the carpet with silver thread (making it permanent IIRC) on the areas where materials are supposed to be placed? When trapped by a carpet of adhesion are liquids able to evaporate?

My player is about to find out this and many of the questions asked here about the whole Carpet thing. I find this to be very power gaming like but who am I to step on someone's idea of "fun". If this is the way someone WANTS to play and bend the rules, go for it.

BUT

They have to realize that things will happen to these circles and you can't carry that many...etc.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Just remembered something. The Card Magic in Rifter 24 pages 89-96 (back of the book).

The core idea is that the magic user is sort of like a summoner that creates magic cards that they cast their spells through.

[TheEvilDM]

Just remembered something. The Card Magic in Rifter 24 pages 89-96 (back of the book).

The core idea is that the magic user is sort of like a summoner that creates magic cards that they cast their spells through.

Oh neat. I’ll peek at that. Thanks!

[drewkitty ~..~]

I also wrote up a mod for the Card Magic Class in the Fan magic topic as well as some new and some specialized card types. Some might seam weird...cause some ideas were taken from anime.