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This OCC gives you no language skills, does that mean you have to use related or secondary skills to speak, or do you get one language to start?
Also, is there an update for this OCC anywhere?

Language (and even Literacy) Skills are not always listed in their description (for Rifts this is very rare IINM). I would say you get one language (native) to start, or depending on the OCC backstory structure (related to language).

As for an update to the OCC, not that I know of.

There's no update and as far as I know no errata for this OCC. All I did for this character was give him native language, other languages and literacy have to come from other and secondary.

Given the back story of the temporal warrior and the skills of the temporal wizard you could make an argument for getting native language and maybe Dragonese at +10 to 20%.

It's not expressly written, but speaking your native language is automatic. There's a few classes that list it, but most don't.

You could just mod the class into a MOS to add onto a char.

Mack wrote:It's not expressly written, but speaking your native language is automatic. There's a few classes that list it, but most don't.

An no....a language skill is not automatic...In Rifts. It Has to be expressly written as being automatic to be automatic.

Please state your 'House Rules' as 'Your' 'house rules'. Or to say you something like: they should be automatic even if not expressly written.

The Rifts game is not one of the games that do have native language skills as automatic. The HU, N&S or BTS (& RT2) are where the native language skills are automatic along with driving and basic math.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You could just mod the class into a MOS to add onto a char.

Mack wrote:It's not expressly written, but speaking your native language is automatic. There's a few classes that list it, but most don't.

An no....a language skill is not automatic...In Rifts. It Has to be expressly written as being automatic to be automatic.

Um... no. It's way too inconsistent over way too many books.

As far as I can tell, in some of the newer books they did begin to list a native language in the skill section. But older classes, such as the Temporal Warrior in question, were printed well before that. So we've got a choice: 1) Temporal Warriors don't know how to speak by default, or 2) Temporal Warriors can speak just like a normal person.

Mack wrote:As far as I can tell, in some of the newer books they did begin to list a native language in the skill section. But older classes, such as the Temporal Warrior in question, were printed well before that. So we've got a choice: 1) Temporal Warriors don't know how to speak by default, or 2) Temporal Warriors can speak just like a normal person.

So What I am hearing you say just now is that you meant was Is that 'All Characters Should be able to speak their native Language.' even if it isn't expressly written that they do.

That is Different from what you said in your 1st post. In that post you said some that wasn't expressly written in the canon text, as if it was.

Drewkitty <--- OCD with words.

IF I am incorrect, and this changed somewhere. Feel Free to cite the location....In a Rifts game book, that is expressly written to cover ALL characters.

Giving 'em Native and one of choice(presumably Dragonese) is reasonable enough, and it's silly to act as if an editing oversight actually means there is either: an obligatory skill expense not expressly stated, or there are somehow Temp. Warriors out there trained over the course of years without any conventional understanding of language.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Mack wrote:As far as I can tell, in some of the newer books they did begin to list a native language in the skill section. But older classes, such as the Temporal Warrior in question, were printed well before that. So we've got a choice: 1) Temporal Warriors don't know how to speak by default, or 2) Temporal Warriors can speak just like a normal person.

So What I am hearing you say just now is that you meant was Is that 'All Characters Should be able to speak their native Language.' even if it isn't expressly written that they do.

That is Different from what you said in your 1st post. In that post you said some that wasn't expressly written in the canon text, as if it was.

Drewkitty <--- OCD with words.

IF I am incorrect, and this changed somewhere. Feel Free to cite the location....In a Rifts game book, that is expressly written to cover ALL characters.

I suspect there's some miscommunication at play here.

Here's an example of my reasoning, also from Rifts England: take a look a the Chiang-Ku Tattoo Master, which represent about 50% of all Chiang-Ku. They don't get any language skills to start, and don't gain any skills as they level up. If taken strictly as written, a one thousand year old dragon wouldn't be able to naturally speak a word. Flip forward to the NPC Prrcyvel, he'd only be able to speak when using a magic tattoo, which is a pretty severe limitation.

(Note - trying to spell "Prrcyvel" makes my head hurt.)

I do agree that every Character class 'should' have a native language listing. And house ruling that they do would be something I'd do for rifts as a GM.

Dragons have their own RCC where they get their own language 'from the egg'.

Even if you look in the RMB, whether OCCs have their native language listed is INCREDIBLY inconsistent (Palladium was inconsistent within a single book. Look, I am terribly surprised.) Some list American, some do not. Some say "additional languages", some do not.

For me, "Does not speak a language unless specifically selected" is a nonsense option, so I assume they speak at least one language (probably Dragonese). Being raised with only combat as a language is a superhero origin, not a standard OCC feature.

Probably one of the stronger arguments in Rifts for native language speaking being assumed is how in 1990 page 31 defined it as "in a language other than their native tongue"

Which I think is probably inherited from something like HU where there were baseline rules for speaking it (plus automobile and stuff)

Mack wrote:So we've got a choice: 1) Temporal Warriors don't know how to speak by default, or 2) Temporal Warriors can speak just like a normal person.

I really like the option that there might be some mute warriors out there just commanded to do combat via hand signals by their Raider masters.

Curbludgeon wrote:or there are somehow Temp. Warriors out there trained over the course of years without any conventional understanding of language

Maybe they're just instructed via gesture or telepathy?

Mack wrote:Here's an example of my reasoning, also from Rifts England: take a look a the Chiang-Ku Tattoo Master, which represent about 50% of all Chiang-Ku.
They don't get any language skills to start, and don't gain any skills as they level up.
If taken strictly as written, a one thousand year old dragon wouldn't be able to naturally speak a word.
Flip forward to the NPC Prrcyvel, he'd only be able to speak when using a magic tattoo, which is a pretty severe limitation.
(Note - trying to spell "Prrcyvel" makes my head hurt.)

In regards to this, perhaps RMB98's rules might be assumed to also apply to Chaing-Ku in addition to what is listed for the Tattoo Master or whatever other OCC?

In which case they would automatically get the 3 skills at 98% (dragonese literacy, literacy of choice and Basic Math) which oddly doesn't include LANGUAGE per se... but the "six skills" they can choose (probably under Secondary Skill restrictions since there's no bonus, though it doesn't say this) can be from Technical so they can acquire Language to supplement their Literacy this way.

Another option might be for a Chaing-Ku (as of RUE) to adopt a pet Rogue Scholar and in exchange for free tattoos they get taught some extra secondary skills for their language?

Percy needing to use his Eye of Knowledge constantly might explain why he's so crippled from helping the Merlin despite his massive PPE base... I like it.

otoh pg 108's RCC skills might not be the entirety of all skills he knows. I think there have been a lot of situations where NPCs don't have all possible skills they ought to have listed. Sometimes when they omit that they'll phrase it "skills of note" but even without the "of note" we should still posit that sometimes NPCs will have skills (or spells, or equipment) which are not listed in their summaries.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You could just mod the class into a MOS to add onto a char.

Mack wrote:It's not expressly written, but speaking your native language is automatic. There's a few classes that list it, but most don't.

An no....a language skill is not automatic...In Rifts. It Has to be expressly written as being automatic to be automatic.

Please state your 'House Rules' as 'Your' 'house rules'. Or to say you something like: they should be automatic even if not expressly written.

The Rifts game is not one of the games that do have native language skills as automatic. The HU, N&S or BTS (& RT2) are where the native language skills are automatic along with driving and basic math.

No, you do get your native language to start.

Fenris2020 wrote:

No, you do get your native language to start.

You need to give a citation for that claim. Not just an unsupported statement.

Only if raised by non-verbal speakers should a character NOT have a starting native language.

The story of 'raised by wolves' comes to mind. If you never interacted with anyone there's no way you could learn a proper language past grunts, whines, and bellows.

Even today there are people who don't have words. And when those same people, after learning a language, are asked what is was like not having words, they can't explain it.
Good old NPR shows can teach you things while you are doing other things.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

No, you do get your native language to start.

You need to give a citation for that claim. Not just an unsupported statement.

Every book that came out after the original Rifts book pretty much has your character knowing their native language; I guess at some point the game designers realized that logic doesn't apply to some players, so they spelled it out...

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

No, you do get your native language to start.

You need to give a citation for that claim. Not just an unsupported statement.

I would put it under common sense unless the character/class backstory requires they not have a starting native language.

Remember: Palladium books are not closely written. These are not WotC books where adjectives are crucially important and consistently applied (i.e. a natural armor bonus, an enhancement bonus, or an enhancement to a natural armor bonus all being distinct things), but books where there's going to be a lot of "You know what I mean."

Mark Hall wrote:Remember: Palladium books are not closely written. These are not WotC books where adjectives are crucially important and consistently applied (i.e. a natural armor bonus, an enhancement bonus, or an enhancement to a natural armor bonus all being distinct things), but books where there's going to be a lot of "You know what I mean."

Agreed. I've always thought of Kevin S. as a storyteller, but not someone I'd want to write the instruction manual for setting the clock on a VCR.

Mark Hall wrote:Remember: Palladium books are not closely written. These are not WotC books where adjectives are crucially important and consistently applied (i.e. a natural armor bonus, an enhancement bonus, or an enhancement to a natural armor bonus all being distinct things), but books where there's going to be a lot of "You know what I mean."

I think this is why I enjoyed playing Rifts much more than D&D.

Palladium Rules are more Guidelines for GMs to follow with wide expanses or grey areas to allow for individual innovation and creativity.

While I haven't played in decades, D&D was about balance; for every positive you had to have a negative. If you wanted to actually create an accurate character from any of the books, you would have to break nearly all the rules to achieve the stats and bonuses.

ShadowLogan wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

No, you do get your native language to start.

You need to give a citation for that claim. Not just an unsupported statement.

I would put it under common sense unless the character/class backstory requires they not have a starting native language.

I too would say it is a common sense House Rule. That I would have no problem with you presenting this idea as. Because that what this idea we are talking about IS.

But to be correct in saying it is a Canon Rule takes text in the canon text specifically saying it. If you say something is canon w/o specific text supporting it, you are misrepresenting what the canon rules are.

Just because everyone is doing it, even thou it is not in the canon text, does not make it canon. What Is In the canon text is canon.

Fenris2020 wrote:Every book that came out after the original Rifts book pretty much has your character knowing their native language;
I guess at some point the game designers realized that logic doesn't apply to some players, so they spelled it out...

except that in many cases when a native language does get spelled out in an OCC it's of varying %s (not always 98) so the specificity of later OCCs really doesn't mean anything retroactively

good example being the 92/94 added to "Ultimate" upgraded version of Grunt/SAMAS on RUE233 vs the 98 for the military specialist on 235

I always assumed in the 1990 version that the designer figured where an OCC didn't provide a language of choice that you would take it as a secondary.

Really helped give a post-apoc feel knowing that some people might not speak a language or might be very unskilled in even their first.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:No, you do get your native language to start.

You need to give a citation for that claim. Not just an unsupported statement.

I don't think the phrase "native language" was even used in Rifts, the closest would just be 31's "other than their own native tongue" which is a BTS/HU pastejob from games which did give it out for free at an undefined skill %

so there's basically the unwritten implication/assumption that you would get at least one of l "free skills" from HU/BTS from the unamended cut/paste job and it is probably that a lot of OCCs such as the Coalition Grunt probably were written with the assumption that it was either free or a mandatory secondary.

Mandatory secondaries don't really make sense though since you could just list them in the OCC skills w/o a bonus.... but Rifts was never consistent about that either since we see sometimes see "choose X" in OCC lists and "from X category" in related...

66's 5 WPs for Hunters in OCC skills vs

BTS40's "additional" made sense because pg 28 had the "Automatic Skills" as the 1st of the "Skill Programs" which says "known by all characters" just like it did in Revised HU pg 27

My classic interpretation is "you get the Automatic Skills plus the number of programs your education level specifies" but taking a fresh look, another way you might look at it is "one of the programs you select must be Automatic Skills" which would really cut back on the skills people could've learned...

I think what disproves such an interpretation is the "Military Specialist" education level because it specifies they get "one other skill program" and say you can choose a 2nd espionage or 2nd weapons... but neither would be an option if you were obligated to have that choice be "Automatic Skills" ergo it's "pre-selected".

Of course since it's pre-selected it begs the question of if this stuff is bonusless or if you should be applying the +??% from your educational level to that too.

...actually another take on the Military Specialist dilemma is that you're obligated to duplicate the program one way or another, meaning they're not free so you need to choose them as secondary skills if they're not supplied by one of your skill programs? I LIKE THIS ONE

Of course skill programs (Automatic or otherwise) were abandoned in Rifts' OCC system and since it includes Read/Write Native Language it obviously doesn't fit into Rifts unamended since Literacy is explicitly scarce. Plus we see "basic math only" in some three secondary skill lists too (48 borg 71 juicer 106 stalker ) so that isn't automatic either.

Another big change from HUrevised>HU2 was they tweaked Automatic Skills by adding Pilot: Automobile which was absent originally (just speak/literate/math) which as we can see in Rifts is not automatic since Vagabonds specially list it.

- - -

Aside from the text in the technical language section, the "additional language(s)" statements in some adventurers/mages in RMB probably also give that impression to some degree.

72 (fixer) 1 additional, is literate
75 (cyberdoc) 1 additional, is literate
80 (wild scout) has literacy and three additional (also have a portable language translator!) so it would probably imply they have at least secondary-proficiency in whichever language you choose to be literate in?
84 (line walker) has "two additional" but no literacy
86 (mystic) 1d6 additional (rare you see dice like that, I recall in certain OCCs you roll like that) also no lit
89 (shifter) has 2 additional also no lit
90 (TW) has 2 additional and does have lit

RCCs are also worth noting...
104 burster "American and one other" (no specifying which if either is native) I guess being firey predisposes you to bilinguality?
106 wild stalker "can speak American and two other languages at 70%" crazy TRIlingual baldies the lot of them, must be cavorting with D-Bees
107 coalition (or civilized merc) stalker "speaks American and one other language at 96%." so pretty much the same contrast as borgs: limited trilinguality or skilled bilinguality
110 psi-hounds strangely know American/Dragonese at 90% (they don't really explain why...)
112 melters "speak American and two other languages at 90%" (again doesn't specify native... and this is probably for melters on other continents... one gets the impression RMB basic setting is North America)

63 cyberknights gets american/dragonese and "two additional" which is probably the only clear use of 'additional' in the entire book!

worth contrasting is the warriors and adventurer...

48 (left) typical slave-borg (ex-peasant) "American (96%) and two other languages at 75% proficiency." no 'additional' and American's probably implied to be native here...
48 (right) the Coalition (or "Military Mercenary" same skills) doesn't seem to be assigned languages until you read the continuation at the start of 49 which is "speaks American and one other language at 96%." So it's possible the other language might be native but regardless they're equal, but know one fewer.

65's GB pilot "select two" (no 'additional')
66 headhunter "select three" lacks "additional"
70 juicer says "three of choice" not "three additional"
88 Vagabond conveniently write between the scout and the walker mentioned above ("American and one language of choice") so is American assumed to be native? (if so and it's implied for OCCs, why list it?) or in addition to it? Does that mean you just can't be speak American natively as a vagabond?



- - -

also as before worthy mentions to compare is pg 98 about Hatchling Dragons
the lower-right only mentions THREE skills as 98% (two literacies and basic math) so it might be implied you need to choose language as one of the "six skills" (even if one might assume they'd all know how to speak dragonese instinctively?)
however the upper-left has different wording

the behemoth will be able to speak, read and write dragonese (elven), and understand basic math, both at 98% proficiency.

The term "both" is strange since it's actually talking about three skills (speak Dragonese, read/write Dragonese, math) but both refers to two...

Given there's no mention of an instinctive literacy in a language besides Dragonese, we can probably assume that was acquired later (like the 6 skills you select)

- - -

RUE 157's "Dragon Instincts" ended up removing "both"

able to speak (at 98% proficiency), read and write DragoneselElven, and understand Basic Math (at the Base Skill level).

So it probably treated both as a typo (ie they probably defined two at first, added 3rd, forgot to rephrase).

Interestingly about that phrasing is whether 98% refers just to speaking or also read/write. The placement of "at the base skill level" clearly applies to basic math but it could be seen as applying to the literacy too... RUE 158 ends up writing it more clearly:

speak and read Dragonese/Elven (98%) and know Math : Basic (starts at 45% and improves by level)

I guess the new batch of Ultimate Dragons are innumerate dummies since they don't start off with 98% math like the classic RMB quartet =/
Of course they're also a lot narrower-skilled too since the new breed doesn't get another language's literacy, and only gets to choose 3 skills (2 secondaries and a 1 niche specialty) to start.

RUE's "Language: Other" and "Literacy: Other" is also new contrast from the 90s, not to mention the shift of Languages/Literacies from Technical to Communication (which could have a massive impact for certain classes...) and RUE304 contrasts the high base of native but low per-level vs the low-base high-level of "other".

304 also has this weird "usually" statement too...
"An O.C.C. skill bonus usually applies to "other" languages and communication skills, not the Native Tongue"
usually isn't always... so we're left wondering 'when' and also "hey, does the grunt get +1% eventually ? 88+1 surpasses the grunt with five additions... so if he wants to be a 93% speaker what's to be done?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

No, you do get your native language to start.

You need to give a citation for that claim. Not just an unsupported statement.

I would put it under common sense unless the character/class backstory requires they not have a starting native language.

I too would say it is a common sense House Rule. That I would have no problem with you presenting this idea as. Because that what this idea we are talking about IS.

But to be correct in saying it is a Canon Rule takes text in the canon text specifically saying it. If you say something is canon w/o specific text supporting it, you are misrepresenting what the canon rules are.

Just because everyone is doing it, even thou it is not in the canon text, does not make it canon. What Is In the canon text is canon.

I am not sure this would be a house rule though. While I agree it isn't spelled out in the rules, it would be implied I think given that some Classes (in RMB-era that WB3 was written in, don't know if the OP has a shadow update to RUE or not) have skills but lack the pre-requisites implying they have those skills. Some skills you need instruction from another in, which means communication occurs which means language is involved which means the character has that skill. You could penalize the player and have them spend Related-Other/Secondary on them or grant the player said skills for free, the rules are not clear on which approach is the correct one (in RMB-era).

I've had people argue with me about something about a Class where the class descriptive text says one thing, in a sort of roundabout way. And they insist that ...No, it doesn't say that.
Spoiler is just explaining...no arguments here please.


Now I am pointing out what they are saying Isn't said in the canon text AT ALL. And saying, what they are saying is implied in the text. Even though there is Zero text to imply it.
-------------
While using the Pre-req. skills rules to this might be a good explanation for having a house rule to extend a nat. lang. to those classes w/o one. But even that stretching would be a house rule.

This runs into the point that: most everyone here will argue their point even after they have been shown that they are wrong. To me this is just Machismo Stupidness...that says "I am never wrong. To be wrong is loose my manhood."

I for one am perfectly willing to retract or modify my stance when shown to be incorrect.

Has there been any word if they are going to update Rifts England?

I wonder which of the book's authors wrote up the class' skill description.

(SHIFTY) wrote:Has there been any word if they are going to update Rifts England?

I doubt it. WB 3 has always been one of the less popular books so I doubt they would ever do a complete revision like they did with WB 1 Vampire Kingdom. Now, I could see them eventually doing a minor revision and clean up they they did with the Federation of Magic book but I think you are more likely to see Temporal Magic and its associate OCCs/RCC rewritten and placed in a new book.

Curbludgeon wrote:I wonder which of the book's authors wrote up the class' skill description.

Given the time of publication and the credits in the book KS or Alex M.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I've had people argue with me about something about a Class where the class descriptive text says one thing, in a sort of roundabout way. And they insist that ...No, it doesn't say that.
Spoiler is just explaining...no arguments here please.

Spoiler:

1) That in the descriptive text in the titan juicer says that their strength comes from mundane science rather than any mystic manipulation. The conclusion being they don't have true SNPS. This concussion is supported by text in the VK@ book where it says that produces of science do not hurt vampires. (about this point, the others just did a "I'm ignoring that inconvenient text.)

Now I am pointing out what they are saying Isn't said in the canon text AT ALL.

aren't squirtguns a product oscience?

Axelmania wrote:aren't squirtguns a product oscience?

Well Super Soakers was made by a Rocket Scientist. So if your king is science then that answer to your question is yes.

Note: the 'o-' prefix in japanese is the Royalty prefix.

HarleeKnight wrote:This OCC gives you no language skills, does that mean you have to use related or secondary skills to speak, or do you get one language to start?
Also, is there an update for this OCC anywhere?

Given this is an RMB-era book, the RMB-era description of the Language skill has some interesting wording (RMB pg31-2) that implies that Native Language was automatic at the time: "Characters with a language skill can understand and speak in a language other than their own native tongue." RMB, unlike RUE does not have Langauge: Other and Language: Native, so when it was published WB3 would be following the RMB rules that have the "native tongue" as a non-skill.

ShadowLogan wrote:Given this is an RMB-era book, the RMB-era description of the Language skill has some interesting wording (RMB pg31-2) that implies that Native Language was automatic at the time: "Characters with a language skill can understand and speak in a language other than their own native tongue."

Even so, it takes making a House Rule to take that implied/presuppose information into an actionable rule.

Note that I'm not arguing that a house rule like this is bad, only that it is what it is, A House Rule.
And should be presented as such.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Given this is an RMB-era book, the RMB-era description of the Language skill has some interesting wording (RMB pg31-2) that implies that Native Language was automatic at the time: "Characters with a language skill can understand and speak in a language other than their own native tongue."

Even so, it takes making a House Rule to take that implied/presuppose information into an actionable rule.

Note that I'm not arguing that a house rule like this is bad, only that it is what it is, A House Rule.
And should be presented as such.

Its not a house rule though. When WB3 was written it was under the RMB-era rules. The Description for the Language Skill states the skill is for a languages other than their native tongue.

ShadowLogan wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Given this is an RMB-era book, the RMB-era description of the Language skill has some interesting wording (RMB pg31-2) that implies that Native Language was automatic at the time: "Characters with a language skill can understand and speak in a language other than their own native tongue."

Even so, it takes making a House Rule to take that implied/presuppose information into an actionable rule.

Note that I'm not arguing that a house rule like this is bad, only that it is what it is, A House Rule.
And should be presented as such.

It's not a house rule though. When WB3 was written it was under the RMB-era rules. The Description for the Language Skill states the skill is for a languages other than their native tongue.

I see you didn't really understand what I said. Let me expand on it.

For while that text makes a good supporting structure for a house rule, to make it into an actionable rule takes making a house rule to make it actionable.

For that text does not specifically say that every character gets their native language. It only says that "this skill" is for languages other than the char's native tongue. Note that I am not adding any 'other meanings' to the text. Just what the text actually says.

And yes I read the text in my RMB when it was brought up.

Again, I am not opposed to a House rule that every char gets a native language. And the text we are discussing here is a good supporting text for a house rule of such nature. It is just that the canon text in Rifts does not actually ....'Say'... that. So it has to be a house rule. And SHOULD be presented for what it is, a house rule.

@drew
I understand what you said. I disagree that an interpretation of an ambiguous rule automatically makes it a house rule.

No where in the (RMB-era) Rules does it state a character needs to have a named skill (either from class or selected) for their Native Language. In point of fact the Language skill itself is reserved for a character's NON-NATIVE TONGUE, and that's in the description itself. So a Character can not spend a skill slot to acquire their native language because there is no skill for it, that means the skill is a free skill.

ShadowLogan wrote:@drew
I understand what you said. I disagree that an interpretation of an ambiguous rule automatically makes it a house rule.

No where in the (RMB-era) Rules does it state a character needs to have a named skill (either from class or selected) for their Native Language. In point of fact the Language skill itself is reserved for a character's NON-NATIVE TONGUE, and that's in the description itself. So a Character can not spend a skill slot to acquire their native language because there is no skill for it, that means the skill is a free skill.

I'm with Shadow on this one. The language skill in RMB is clearly for secondary languages and there is no Native Language skill. This also fits in to all the other PB games of the time that is closest to Rifts under the RMB and that is Robotech 1e which has no language skills at all. When you look at the games with skill programs like HU revised, TMNT, BTS 1e which all have a native language skill as part of a common skill program which Rifts lacks.

Also many OCCs in RMB phrase it as additional languages when you get a selection under OCC skills so it just seems reasonable and not really a house rule.

ShadowLogan wrote:No where in the (RMB-era) Rules does it state a character needs to have a named skill (either from class or selected) for their Native Language.
In point of fact the Language skill itself is reserved for a character's NON-NATIVE TONGUE, and that's in the description itself.

The exact same text is present in the game preceding Rifts which it copied that text from: BTS28 "read/write native language" and "speaks native language".

BTS40's "characters with a language skill" obviously is intended to mean "characters who select a language skill" because it then goes on to talk about the ways you do that (secondary skill or language skill program)

"Speaks native language" is still a skill, it's obviously Language: X and followed the same exact rules for % and progression up until RUE repackaged it as a separate skill whilst moving the language/literacy skills from Technical to Communications.

ShadowLogan wrote:So a Character can not spend a skill slot to acquire their native language because there is no skill for it, that means the skill is a free skill.

Nope, this interpretation doesn't make sense when you look at the BTS setup: there was a skill for it.
Just like "Mathematics: Basic" it was part of the "Automatic Skills" (known by all characters) program.

Obviously in this context it's meant to mean "all human PLAYER characters you design using the rules in this book" because in other games stuff like literacy (or basic math) are not known by all.
If it meant "all characters" then it would have to also mean all NPCs in BTS which would mean a 1D6 IQ creature like a Burrower knows Basic Math? Not likely.

Warshield73 wrote:I'm with Shadow on this one. The language skill in RMB is clearly for secondary languages and there is no Native Language skill.

That's because it's just the language skill which was a bad pastejob from a game which assumed you got it (and math) as a free skill program.

Warshield73 wrote:When you look at the games with skill programs like HU revised, TMNT, BTS 1e which all have a native language skill as part of a common skill program which Rifts lacks.

Those games set the precedent that you actually need to say which skills a character gets.

Warshield73 wrote:Also many OCCs in RMB phrase it as additional languages when you get a selection under OCC skills so it just seems reasonable and not really a house rule.

This is contrast with many which do NOT list "additional".

Also useful is to look at some of the Rifts Conversion Book notes...

pg 86 for Wolfen "60% speak and read the Wolfen and Elven/Dragonese languages at 98%, knows basic math (+10%) and one extra ancient W.P. in addition to O.C.C. skills"

If speaking Wolfen as a free bonus to OCC skills were universal they wouldn't list it, only the Literacy/Math/WP/Elven

pg 89 for Changelings : "Elven/Dragonese is their natural language 98% and 50% are also literate in the language. Also have the disguise skill (+ 20%) and imitate voices (30% + 5% per level of experience) in addition to O.C.C. skills."

If everyone already had native language for free then you wouldn't list it as an addition for Changelings.

pg 90 for Dwarves "70% speak and read the Dwarf languages at 98% and Dragonese/Elven ( + 30%) in addition to O.C.C. skills."

Dwarven would clearly be the native language of dwarves, so if ALL of them are assumed to speak native languages at 98% then why would you even list this?

pg 90 for Elves similarly "90% speak and read the Elf languages at 98%, and will be literate in one other and know basic math (both +20%), in addition to O.C.C. skills"

What of the 10% of elves and 30% of dwarves who don't have these bonuses? Well: obviously they don't get a 98% native language and need to purchase it via their skill options.

pg 139 for Hytril "Languages: Gobblely 98% (native tongue)" ... why list this if it was automatic? because it isn't

Furthermore, the Vagabond OCC lists "American" as an OCC skill. If all OCCs are assumed to get native language for free and vagabonds get American in addition to that, this makes it impossible to play a vagabond who is a native speaker of American: it assumes that all vagabonds come from Quebec/Mexico and speak French/Spanish.

If we were to house-rule to give Rifts OCCs some free new skills probably the best guideline would be pg 28 "Acquiring new skills" which is meant to be automatic free skills gained by OCCs from other games who arrive on Rifts Earth.

The options all give at least one new language (high-tech and mage/priest/scholar classes get TWO) and for some reason they all get radio:basic for free even though it's possible to have OCCs native to Rfits Earth who lack Radio: Basic.

They all also get a free modern WP skill even though similarly it's possible to build Rifts OCCs who lack a modern WP skill.

It's all pretty weird, makes me wonder if the revised CB changed any of it.

ShadowLogan wrote:@drew
I understand what you said. I disagree that an interpretation of an ambiguous rule automatically makes it a house rule.

No where in the (RMB-era) Rules does it state a character needs to have a named skill (either from class or selected) for their Native Language. In point of fact the Language skill itself is reserved for a character's NON-NATIVE TONGUE, and that's in the description itself. So a Character can not spend a skill slot to acquire their native language because there is no skill for it, that means the skill is a free skill.

The thing is.....I'm not making any interpretations. In fact I'm staying away from making interpretations. And sticking to the very literal what the text says and does not say.

Its pretty simple really. Officially in Rifts, no Temporal Warriors speak a word unless they burn an OCC related or secondary skill. Also, if not using RUE, they can never take Horsemanship or Cowboy skills (horsemanship used to be a pilot skill...but no other horsemanship variants)

However, most people, and I imagine DK is among us when he plays, allow native language to be an automatic skill as a house rule especially since it doesnt make sense that one would need to speak to cast a spell...

Regardless, I would love to see England get the RUE facelift many other books have received. Especially since the Auto Dodge bonuses were changed in RUE. Likewise, I would like to see the level progressions make more sense. So a level 1 temporal warrior can level up and eventually get the auto dodge bonuses. Till then, you just have experienced temporal warriors that can never get auto dodge since most GMs start players at level 1.