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Wait... it holds HOW MANY rounds?! Drop a zero for both the main and secondary ammo containers. That I could believe.
I'll leave the sonic boom alone, since that's the game-designer's baby.
Did the game designers ever actually fire flechette rounds? They spread; by the time they travel the listed distance, they'll have scattered a LOT (enough to be pretty much useless as the weapon is supposed to work). Unless they're magnetized to prevent that from happening? Otherwise, I'd say max range would be about 100 meters.
Has the NGR developed U-Rounds for their Glitter Boys? That would certainly make an impression, though after-battle clean up would suck.
The pilots have to be at least 6'6" tall.

Fenris2020 wrote:Wait... it holds HOW MANY rounds?! Drop a zero for both the main and secondary ammo containers. That I could believe.

This bit in particular has been mocked since it was changed from 100. There's a pic floating around about what a 1000 round ammo container would look like (its called the Frigidaire), so your not alone on that one.

I got nothing on the Flechette bit, but when its been mentioned (rarely) its been glossed over, so we may as well pretend that its some semi-special smart canister dumper or something.

Fenris2020 wrote:Wait... it holds HOW MANY rounds?! Drop a zero for both the main and secondary ammo containers. That I could believe.

Pretty sure this has been discussed here a thousand times but yeah the ammo is is way off and surprising absolutely no one the number are all over the place.

The original RMB (soft cover and Silver edition) and WB8 Japan have the payload as 100 with a 40 round spare. Black Market book has a 100 round payload for the Baby Boom Gun which is supposed to be the same as a regular but crappy materials.

WB 22 Free Quebec is weird as it has 100 round payload but the spare ammo case is now 400 rounds.

And of course RUE has the GB with 1000 rounds and 400 spare. This is insane.

Just for shiggles I looked at my 30th Anniversary copies, both color and gold, and they list 1000 and 400. Nothing else has been changed as near as I can tell but yeah it is all over the place.

Me personally I just use 100 and 40, have lots of people play GBs in regular campaigns and convention games and only had one person at a POH actually complain about it.

Fenris2020 wrote:I'll leave the sonic boom alone, since that's the game-designer's baby.

To be fair, lots of people love the sonic boom so yeah just chalk it up to rule of cool and move on. To be fair I have read other fiction where the firing of a rail gun also causes a debilitating noise, but not to the level of the GB.

Fenris2020 wrote:Did the game designers ever actually fire flechette rounds? They spread; by the time they travel the listed distance, they'll have scattered a LOT (enough to be pretty much useless as the weapon is supposed to work). Unless they're magnetized to prevent that from happening? Otherwise, I'd say max range would be about 100 meters.

Had this discussion with my original high school group as one player ended up in the Navy and another in the Marines, we just assumed that the speed of the projectile is so fast and the shell casing falls away so precisely that the group stays together pretty well.

Fenris2020 wrote:Has the NGR developed U-Rounds for their Glitter Boys? That would certainly make an impression, though after-battle clean up would suck.

Nothing in the books but I don't see why not. I myself let a few PCs get some from a destroyed NGR GB as I thought it just made sense for the NGR to do it as, like you said, it makes an impression and you have to imagine NGR GB pilots would scream for them.

The biggest issue I have with the sonic boom is that is not a sonic boom works. It more closely matches the concussive wave from a cannon than a sonic boom on a round moving faster than speed of sound. -AR shoot rounds faster than speed of sound and they do not do that.

If you're having mech problems, I feel bad for you, son. I got ninety-nine problems, but a Boom Gun ain't one.

I've been researching how the GB could have been designed and manufactured with some cutting-edge technology we have today but don't have the means to apply it.

I've got the armor and power supply, but I haven't tackled the Boom-Gun yet.

"An army marches on its stomach" --Napoleon Bonaparte

the 100/40 round ammo supply seems more reasonable, with that said I could see an argument that it has some more ammo than originally statted.out.
based on the pop out diagrams I would suggest that the boom gun round (shell/cartridge) is essentially a big shotgun shell ~1-2" in diameter and about 7" long as to how many would fit in the ammo storage, it would in part depend on how the inside of the bin is laid out, and how much room is inside. for example if its essentially a belt track with the rounds packed in with minimal spacing you will fit a lot more than if you have every cartridge separated by a full shell space on all sides.

the boom effect is pretty unrealistic IMO as well, I just never bothered to really do much about it. I could see changing it to be listed effect within ~100m of the GB (double in front) along the firing path, and then ~1-10m path around the shot as it heads downrange. but it would be a bit harder to map/plot out the affected area.

the "flechette" submunitions are ~1 inch long wafers/rods packed into a cluster of 50, and 4 of those clusters stacked into the shell. so they are a cross between a canister round, and a shotgun shell. the way I read it, each "round" for the glitterboys RG-14 gun, is effectively a hybrid combination of shotgun, and rail machine gun sort of.
the Pilot squeezes the trigger and fires 1 shot, which triggers the powder charge in the shellas the 4 stacks of flechette in their "shoes" are accelerated down the barrel and then the railgun (coilgun by actual function) grabbs (electromagnetically) and then accelerates significantly the shoe and 50 flechette submunitions. in flight the "shoe" falls away, and the flechette eventually hits "something"

i never had any problems with the deep ammo bins on the glitter boy. they're inert for starters, and besides, the way the whole robot is built screams "hope you weren't planning on being anywhere need supply lines, sucker". it's probably easier to cram all the ammo into the 'mech's transport weight and assume it'll be operating for a very long time without resupply given it seems to be intended for just that. being able to hold a standoff position for days at a time without needing to reload is a virtue when retreat is pretty much not possible for the thing.

guardiandashi wrote:the 100/40 round ammo supply seems more reasonable, with that said I could see an argument that it has some more ammo than originally statted.out.
based on the pop out diagrams I would suggest that the boom gun round (shell/cartridge) is essentially a big shotgun shell ~1-2" in diameter and about 7" long as to how many would fit in the ammo storage, it would in part depend on how the inside of the bin is laid out, and how much room is inside. for example if its essentially a belt track with the rounds packed in with minimal spacing you will fit a lot more than if you have every cartridge separated by a full shell space on all sides.

Kitsune's math from the origional art has the shells at being around 60mm in diameter, which is enough to have room to play with for alternate loads.

blackwingedheaven wrote:If you're having mech problems, I feel bad for you, son. I got ninety-nine problems, but a Boom Gun ain't one.

Yes, I'm sure this is helpful.
Or something.

The following is from an old post on the same discussion.

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

Caveat, I wrote that about 5 years ago.

Here's a link to the previous discussion.

Mack wrote:The following is from an old post on the same discussion.

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

Caveat, I wrote that about 5 years ago.

Here's a link to the previous discussion.

I just finished my own set of calculations using RMB images on pg221 and 219, with the stated dimensions on pg219. After putting them into inches I calculate (rounding all figures down) by total volume available:
-the ammo drum on the back is big enough to hold either 102 or 155 rounds, depending on what the dimensional height includes (stowed RG-14 top or the top of the head)
-the ammo belt (which curves around a bit in places) holds either 18 or 27 rounds depending on what the dimensional height includes
-the ammo drum on the back has a diameter of 12.65" with a length of 29.76" (or 14.55x34.25 depending on dimensional height)
-the ammo belt is at least 47.62" long with a 3.72" diameter (or 54.79 x 4.28 depending on dimensional height)
-the RG-14 Round is 7" long and 2.58" in diameter (a bit off from your diameter)

A bit of useless trivia is that if the USA-G10 was a simple rectangular box, it would be big enough to hold 8,532 rounds. Now the USA-G10 does have a lot of negative space (ie not actually occupied by the suit), so there is certainly volume available to store 1,000 rounds. Which leads me to think that the discrepancy between RUE and RMB is either a typo OR evidence the USA-G10 has variable sized ammo drums (main and reload) OR the drums have been enchanted with a dimensional pocket to increase their capacity (and the mage who cast the spell goofed and it impacted ALL USA-G10 Ammo Drums).

so basically, the only way it works is if you replace the pilot with stacks of ammo. because as you pointed out, only 100-150 rounds actually fit into the ammo bin and feed line.

Mack wrote:The following is from an old post on the same discussion.

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

Caveat, I wrote that about 5 years ago.

Here's a link to the previous discussion.

I don't think lead would work well for fletchettes (which don't apparently work well in the first place).
So yeah, Titanium or ceramic or a MDC metal of unknown type or something.

If you want to figure out a more realistic idea for the sonic boom, it might help to calculate the size of an entire cartridge, not just single or individual rounds, and go with the assumption that the cartridge itself makes the boom as it leaves the barrel, before it falls away and leaves the fletchettes flying free (assuming it does that).

That, or calculate the sonic boom of 1 rounds, and multiply by 200, and find a way to argue that there's a synergestic effect of people nearby being hit by all 200 booms at about the same time.

For me, it's about game balance.
The GB isn't the unstoppable monster a lot of people think it is, BUT it does need some balance and the Sonic Boom effect provides a lot of that by giving penalties to your own companions if they're too close when the gun fires. I've seen arguments break out between party members over that, when GBs carelessly deafen their own team, either without thinking or without caring about the effects.
So I like the sonic boom, whether or not it's realistic; it helps with balance.
If you want realism, try to calculate the size of the GB along with its strength and the cube-square law, along with how the GB would be affected by high winds, and so on. I'm betting there's not much thought into the physics, and it'll all break down pretty fast if you think too hard about it.

Similarly, I go with 100 rounds over 1000 rounds. Mack makes a decent case that it's entirely plausible for the GB to have 1,000 rounds, BUT I prefer for the GB players to have to think before using the Boom Gun, to decide if the particular foe they're up against is worth spending x% of their ammunition, especially when they might not be able to resupply until they hit a big city.
The lower initial number provided more balance to what is typically considered the most overpowered armor in the game.

More and more, I kinda agree with the view that the GB round should just be a huge solid slug in order to justify the damage and sonic boom, so there's always that option too; just ignore the part about fletchettes.

A few random comments...

For much of the same reasoning Killer Cyborg provided, I prefer to keep the payload to 100/40 rounds.

Were I ever to play a GB, my first priority would be adding a decent energy weapon to the left forearm. Either a particle beam or pulse laser. Something to use against smaller targets that either don't warrant using the Boom Gun, or can be used as a backup when needed. (The Rimouski Weapon Package in Free Quebec is OK, but I'd want something that hits a bit harder.)

And something I just noticed in my RUE (page 72)... "One Boom Gun flechette round holds 200 slugs that inflict a massive 3D6x10 M.D. to its target." So the flechette is the canister that falls away during flight. (I imagine that's probably contradicted somewhere else.)

Killer Cyborg wrote:If you want to figure out a more realistic idea for the sonic boom, it might help to calculate the size of an entire cartridge, not just single or individual rounds, and go with the assumption that the cartridge itself makes the boom as it leaves the barrel, before it falls away and leaves the fletchettes flying free (assuming it does that).

That, or calculate the sonic boom of 1 rounds, and multiply by 200, and find a way to argue that there's a synergestic effect of people nearby being hit by all 200 booms at about the same time.

For me, it's about game balance.
The GB isn't the unstoppable monster a lot of people think it is, BUT it does need some balance and the Sonic Boom effect provides a lot of that by giving penalties to your own companions if they're too close when the gun fires. I've seen arguments break out between party members over that, when GBs carelessly deafen their own team, either without thinking or without caring about the effects.
So I like the sonic boom, whether or not it's realistic; it helps with balance.
If you want realism, try to calculate the size of the GB along with its strength and the cube-square law, along with how the GB would be affected by high winds, and so on. I'm betting there's not much thought into the physics, and it'll all break down pretty fast if you think too hard about it.

Similarly, I go with 100 rounds over 1000 rounds. Mack makes a decent case that it's entirely plausible for the GB to have 1,000 rounds, BUT I prefer for the GB players to have to think before using the Boom Gun, to decide if the particular foe they're up against is worth spending x% of their ammunition, especially when they might not be able to resupply until they hit a big city.
The lower initial number provided more balance to what is typically considered the most overpowered armor in the game.

More and more, I kinda agree with the view that the GB round should just be a huge solid slug in order to justify the damage and sonic boom, so there's always that option too; just ignore the part about fletchettes.

The fletchets could be like the flak cannon of unreal. They are in a casing until just before impact or are like a EFP that are launched from the casing at impact. (those might explain the tights formation).

Typically do not change the mechanical affect of the sonic boom, but it just does not act like a sonic boom.

glitterboy2098 wrote:so basically, the only way it works is if you replace the pilot with stacks of ammo. because as you pointed out, only 100-150 rounds actually fit into the ammo bin and feed line.

Yes and No.

If we restrict ourselves to the ammo drum/belt as shown in the noted lineart, then yes you are limited to no more than ~180rounds (max combo if every cubic inch is used for ammo, which I doubt) between the belt and drum.

If one can somehow convert the negative space (when I calculated the volume of the USA-G10 I treated it as a basic rectangular cube, so it includes a lot of space that isn't actually suit/pilot) that would extend from the resting hands to the bottom of the units feet and on either side of the head or the gaps between the legs or body/arms or the space behind below the thruster pack to the ground... Yes you can fit well over 1000 RG-14 rounds total in that negative space, though the unit is not going to look like the unit in the lineart.

Though I do agree with the consensus for the 100/40 setup from the RMB is the one to use for an unmodified USA-G10 suit.

A few random thoughts:
-If one treats each round as equivalent to a burst due to the sub-munitions, the payload of the USA-G10 goes from 100 baseline to 20,000 by sub-munition which is comparable to Robot rail guns and dwarfs power armor/man-portables in RMB/RUE books.
-the USA-G10's Robotic PS of 30 only allows it to carry 750lbs (the RG-14's weight is over 800lbs)
-the RMB and RUE versions both use the same fully loaded mass, but differing ammo counts.
-if someone wanted to include the 1000/400 bins it is completely doable if they are external to the suit, setup for fixed positions where the USA-G10 isn't expected to move around much or as the equivalent of a two-unit team with the ammo-belt linking them

Some good points here.
Since I do know how ammo-belts work, I would say that the belt from drum to gun would probably hold at least 80 rounds.
Another think I'd point out is the fact that the pilot's arms would probably be on some kind of controls in the torso area; they certainly couldn't go in the suit's arms.

A couple of thoughts:

+I think 100 shots makes more sense than 1,000, because if the ammunition capacity for this weapon was 1,000, then FQ reload teams would likely not be a thing.
+While it may be possible to cram 1,000 cartridges into the GB somewhere, weapon magazines aren't just hoppers full of bullets; they are systems with moving parts that have to feed ammunition reliably into the weapon. Those moving parts take up space.

As for the flachette vs solid slug issue, I think it's important to point out that boom guns aren't modern cannons, and thus the way that they accelerate and leave the barrel is likely to be different from a modern flachette munition.
+In my head-canon, a single central flachette goes first, followed by expanding concentric rings of flachettes, with each ring carefully timed and spaced to add to the sonic shock wave of the blast, fly in a mutually correcting formation to the target, and inflict maximum mechanical shock to the target.
+In my head-canon, the Boom Gun itself was engineered to amplify, not muffle, the boom effect. The designers took the approach that the boom was a feature, not a bug, and thus took a wildly different approach to engineering the weapon than a standard rail gun.

Fenris2020 wrote:Another think I'd point out is the fact that the pilot's arms would probably be on some kind of controls in the torso area; they certainly couldn't go in the suit's arms.

This is glossed over in just about all sci-fi, including most movies. Having ANY of the operator's limbs in the limbs of the suit would be a mechanical and logistical nightmare and would introduce significant vulnerable spots at the joints.

i dunno why you guys are debating the placement of the pilot in the glitter boy. we know the head is inside the glitter boy helmet, and the legs ends up in the armor's thighs by the canon art, and the body is four feet wide. there's not any way for the pilot to get their arms into the shoulders to begin with. the pilot's arms are probably curled across their chest, since there's not room for it otherwise with the torso joints the armor has.

cosmicfish wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:Another think I'd point out is the fact that the pilot's arms would probably be on some kind of controls in the torso area; they certainly couldn't go in the suit's arms.

This is glossed over in just about all sci-fi, including most movies. Having ANY of the operator's limbs in the limbs of the suit would be a mechanical and logistical nightmare and would introduce significant vulnerable spots at the joints.

someone tell that to the SAMAS.

Hotrod wrote:+I think 100 shots makes more sense than 1,000, because if the ammunition capacity for this weapon was 1,000, then FQ reload teams would likely not be a thing.

That depends on the size/scope of the battle.

A Glitterboy Pilot has between 6-14 APM depending on Level, HTH (assume no Assassin, though it is +1 overall), Boxing, Descended Status, and RC:E skill (for the USA-G10). That means a GB can fire 100 rounds in 1.79-4.17 minutes, with the lower level pilots skewing toward longer duration. The 1000 round capacity will last 10x longer, but with the right size/scope battle FQ reload teams would still be viable though the need would go down. (NOTE: Personally I do think the internal capacity is 100).

ShadowLogan wrote:

Hotrod wrote:+I think 100 shots makes more sense than 1,000, because if the ammunition capacity for this weapon was 1,000, then FQ reload teams would likely not be a thing.

That depends on the size/scope of the battle.

A Glitterboy Pilot has between 6-14 APM depending on Level, HTH (assume no Assassin, though it is +1 overall), Boxing, Descended Status, and RC:E skill (for the USA-G10). That means a GB can fire 100 rounds in 1.79-4.17 minutes, with the lower level pilots skewing toward longer duration. The 1000 round capacity will last 10x longer, but with the right size/scope battle FQ reload teams would still be viable though the need would go down. (NOTE: Personally I do think the internal capacity is 100).

Without the spell Dimensional Envelope, the dimensions given for the rounds make it physically impossible for the suit to hold over 250 rounds; perhaps if they were 20mm the drum and belt could hold more.

Orin J. wrote:i dunno why you guys are debating the placement of the pilot in the glitter boy. we know the head is inside the glitter boy helmet, and the legs ends up in the armor's thighs by the canon art, and the body is four feet wide. there's not any way for the pilot to get their arms into the shoulders to begin with. the pilot's arms are probably curled across their chest, since there's not room for it otherwise with the torso joints the armor has.

cosmicfish wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:Another think I'd point out is the fact that the pilot's arms would probably be on some kind of controls in the torso area; they certainly couldn't go in the suit's arms.

This is glossed over in just about all sci-fi, including most movies. Having ANY of the operator's limbs in the limbs of the suit would be a mechanical and logistical nightmare and would introduce significant vulnerable spots at the joints.

someone tell that to the SAMAS.

The same issues would apply to ALL power armor with any sense of realism. Consider that if the centers of rotations are different between the armor and the operator, the result would be that the operator's joint(s) and/or the associated bones would be snapped. Considering the wide variations in human physique, you would either need to sharply limit pilots to those of a precise physiques else require the armor to be completely configurable for every acceptable variation. In the specific case of the GB, think about what would happen if the operator had too long a torso or too narrow shoulders - even without extending past the armor's knees, keeping it from ripping apart the neck and hips would be a major operational challenge.

And you would still regardless have vulnerabilities at the joints. Whatever your "thigh gap" would be, that is your space for armor and mechanisms, and it won't be much.

Fenris2020 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Hotrod wrote:+I think 100 shots makes more sense than 1,000, because if the ammunition capacity for this weapon was 1,000, then FQ reload teams would likely not be a thing.

That depends on the size/scope of the battle.

A Glitterboy Pilot has between 6-14 APM depending on Level, HTH (assume no Assassin, though it is +1 overall), Boxing, Descended Status, and RC:E skill (for the USA-G10). That means a GB can fire 100 rounds in 1.79-4.17 minutes, with the lower level pilots skewing toward longer duration. The 1000 round capacity will last 10x longer, but with the right size/scope battle FQ reload teams would still be viable though the need would go down. (NOTE: Personally I do think the internal capacity is 100).

Without the spell Dimensional Envelope, the dimensions given for the rounds make it physically impossible for the suit to hold over 250 rounds; perhaps if they were 20mm the drum and belt could hold more.

Well it can hold 1000 rounds internally (at what expense...) or in its negative external volume with a bigger ammo drum. What I was trying to show is that even if the USA-G10 had 1000 rounds, it doesn't necessarily negate the need for FQ reload teams as on sustained fire will still require the suit to be reloaded (in large/long battles).

20mm=0.78740158inches, assuming the same length as the line art (changing only the diameter to be ~3.3x smaller) you could actually hold over 1000 rounds in the ammo drum alone running them through the same calculations above since the round now has ~1/10 the volume (0.09x to be more precise).

I mean, I don't think there's a lot of situations where after firing 1,000 rounds *per glitterboy* in a squad where you're going to have targets left such that rapidly reloading is a major concern. after the amount of damage that the glitterboy has done before needing that reload, and you still haven't managed to force them to even *take cover* after all that time, let alone retreat, I would expect morale to be a serious issue...

I guess maybe if free quebec is planning to expand into xiticix territory?

ShadowLogan wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Hotrod wrote:+I think 100 shots makes more sense than 1,000, because if the ammunition capacity for this weapon was 1,000, then FQ reload teams would likely not be a thing.

That depends on the size/scope of the battle.

A Glitterboy Pilot has between 6-14 APM depending on Level, HTH (assume no Assassin, though it is +1 overall), Boxing, Descended Status, and RC:E skill (for the USA-G10). That means a GB can fire 100 rounds in 1.79-4.17 minutes, with the lower level pilots skewing toward longer duration. The 1000 round capacity will last 10x longer, but with the right size/scope battle FQ reload teams would still be viable though the need would go down. (NOTE: Personally I do think the internal capacity is 100).

Without the spell Dimensional Envelope, the dimensions given for the rounds make it physically impossible for the suit to hold over 250 rounds; perhaps if they were 20mm the drum and belt could hold more.

Well it can hold 1000 rounds internally (at what expense...) or in its negative external volume with a bigger ammo drum. What I was trying to show is that even if the USA-G10 had 1000 rounds, it doesn't necessarily negate the need for FQ reload teams as on sustained fire will still require the suit to be reloaded (in large/long battles).

20mm=0.78740158inches, assuming the same length as the line art (changing only the diameter to be ~3.3x smaller) you could actually hold over 1000 rounds in the ammo drum alone running them through the same calculations above since the round now has ~1/10 the volume (0.09x to be more precise).

I can always tell when someone's never actually been around a weapons' system of any type...
The point is, given the dimensions of the armor, the rounds, and looking at the belt and drum... No, it actually can't hold 1000 rounds (and 400 in the spare).

"Dammit, Ralph, there is a REASON why I installed *this*!" *mechanic loudly taps sign with the symbol of 'no food/drink' on it)
"Wait, there's a sign?"
"Yeah, I put it there *six weeks ago*!"
"So?"
" 'So?' ? "SO?' ?! " (reaches into recesses of the GlitterBoy, pulls out a gloved hand covered in orange powder, shows it) "THIS is why! Cheese-ball dust!!"
"O-o-o-oh."

Fenris2020 wrote:I can always tell when someone's never actually been around a weapons' system of any type...
The point is, given the dimensions of the armor, the rounds, and looking at the belt and drum... No, it actually can't hold 1000 rounds (and 400 in the spare).

I agree the USA-G10's ammo drum and belt are CAN NOT HOLD 1,000 rounds based on the stated dimensions. I have done the math even. My assessment of the USA-G10 at 1,000 rounds was only as a WHAT-IF Hypothetical to match the "new" stats.

Now there ARE WAYS to make what Palladium presents by making changes to the lineart to make the stats work:
-changing the diameter but not the length of the shell fired to 20mm (works with the existing drums) as you suggested.
-adding a second main (basic cylindrical) ammo bin sized similar to the RG-14 Rail Gun (~98-113" long x ~13-15" diameter) can hold between ~378-576 rounds I calculate (depending on what the listed height of the USA-10 is measuring, the top of the head or the top of the stowed RG-14 in the lineart). Mounted externally opposite the RG-14 shoulder, either feeding directly into the RG-14 or the existing drum
-as above but with differing dimensions of @ 100" long x 22" diameter can hold ~1,039. a 50" long by 20" diameter can hold ~429.
-mount additional main and/or reserve ammo bins externally using the RMB capacity

Shark_Force wrote:I mean, I don't think there's a lot of situations where after firing 1,000 rounds *per glitterboy* in a squad where you're going to have targets left such that rapidly reloading is a major concern. after the amount of damage that the glitterboy has done before needing that reload, and you still haven't managed to force them to even *take cover* after all that time, let alone retreat, I would expect morale to be a serious issue...

I guess maybe if free quebec is planning to expand into xiticix territory?

[/quote]
Well by the math, you are supposed to miss like 35% of the time in ranged combat before factoring in bonuses (less than 8 is a miss, 7/20=35%). 5% of the time is going to be a critical.

I agree it also depends on who FQ is fighting and the size/duration of the battle:
-Xiticix have the raw numbers
-Dimensional Invasions (Minion War participants obviously but some D-Bee races are known to have the potential)
-Atlantis (they do have a colony in Canada after all, if it expands or FQ wants to push them away or some other reason that draws them into a large conflict)
-Shemarrians (unlikely unless someone expands into the others territory I don't see this happening with Archie in charge)
-the CS (political fallout)
-Archie-3's sleeper army the Republicans want to wake up (if they can be successful in doing so)
-possibly Lazlo/New Lazlo but without details on their TO&E and such its hard to say

Well, let's run some numbers.

Assume Figure that a Glitter Boy will hit maybe 50% of the time, and 5% will be natural 20s that will do double damage, and 0.25% of the time both attacker and defender will get natural 20s. This means an effective hit rate (for the purposes of computing damage) of 54.75%. The median damage of a boom gun shot is 105 M.D.C.

(Median damage of Boom Gun shot) x (effective hit rate) x (ammunition capacity) = total damage done with a single load.

If the Glitter Boy has 100 shots, that's (105) x (0.5475) x (100) = 5,747.75 M.D.C. in about 50 hits.
If the Glitter Boy has 1000 shots, that's 57,477.5 M.D.C. in about 500 hits.

For comparison purposes:
+Typical Xiticix warriors have 70 M.D.C., so a Glitter Boy will kill them in one shot ~70% of the time, so a single load of 100 shots should take out about 35 of those beasties. A 1,000 shot load should take out about 350 of them. This is all assuming that the GB doesn't get overwhelmed during this process.

Typical Old Style grunts have about 80 M.D.C., so a Glitter Boy will kill them in one shot maybe 60% of the time, so a single load of 100 shots could take out 30 old-style grunts, and a 1,000 round load could take out 300. New-style grunts have about 100 M.D.C., so the kill rate for them will be closer to 50%, meaning that the Boom Gun will take out about 25 of them with a 100-round load or 250 with a 1,000-round load.

As for bigger targets:

A 100-round load could take out about 22 old-style SAMAS, 16 Striker SAMAS, 9 IAR-2 Abolishers, 8 IAR-4 Hellraisers, 6 Coalition Death Bringer APCs, 5 IAR-3 Skull Smashers, 2-3 Death's Head Transports, or a Coalition Fire Storm Mobile Fortress.

With these numbers, I think 100 rounds is adequate.

From a gaming perspective, I like having ammunition be a significant factor, especially for weapons as devastating as the Boom Gun. It helps keep things interesting. Then again, I think logistics are fun in RPGs. Anyone else love the old Oregon Trail computer game?

i ran those numbers myself once and determined that a 1000 round bin could destroy nearly two Ticonderoga class supercarriers.

I think the point that's being missed is, the GB needs to be able to sustain itself in the wilderness for weeks, if not longer. If they hold 100 rounds, that'll do them for a fight, maybe, but then? Restock the bot back at base. Then back out, one day later, they're back for restock.

Simple math, an operator in the armor with only 6 APM, and most pilots will have more, will use 100 rounds in less than 17 melee rounds, that's just four minutes, 15 seconds. Then the bot is out, down to using 40 round magazines, and has to resupply. this takes Many minutes and requires specialized equipment. Or, you know, they can reload by hand. lol.

This is the design that survived the end of the world? Any bot or PA with so limited an operating capacity would never have survived the dark ages. The fact that the USA-G10 is still around tells us it cannot have had so limited a field endurance.

except for two issues with logic:

they were not designed for wilderness use,they were designed for warfighting with close logistical trains

and literally no other robot or power armor carries ammo loads that large, with most carrying only 50-100 shots/bursts for their main non-energy weapons. (and if they rely on missiles, usually much less than that)

and honestly, having used the 100 round limit, i never had issues running out over multiple battles. most battles didn't last more than 2-3 melees max, much less the dozen plus suggest here, and i certainly never needed to fire continuously that whole time. most of the time battles were over before i'd even had a chance to fire more then 3-4 shots. at that rate a 100 round drum could last for months of in game time. a thousand round drum would literally last for years, which again, makes the idea of reloader teams pointless. especially with teams of GB's which could dispatch most opponents very quickly.

A few years ago I did some math on how many Xiticix could a GB Legion kill. The idea was to put a Legion just on the edge of Xiticix territory and let the bugs come to them. The numbers were truly staggering, especially if the Boom Guns are only used against fresh targets and leave wounded bugs to be finished off by lesser weapons. It was on the order of a single GB Armored Infantry Company would kill 355 Xiticix per melee, and that was using a leisurely sustained rate of fire of only 4 shots per melee. There's eight of those companies in a Legion (so 2,840 Xiticix per melee) plus another eight specialized companies that I didn't calculate (FQ p79).

ITWastrel wrote:This is the design that survived the end of the world? Any bot or PA with so limited an operating capacity would never have survived the dark ages. The fact that the USA-G10 is still around tells us it cannot have had so limited a field endurance.

Its also possible that the USA-G10 survived the Dark Ages because it did dig in where it could get the necessary support (IIRC the Flechette Canisters are supposedly easy to make, unlike everything else about the suit).

glitterboy2098 wrote:and literally no other robot or power armor carries ammo loads that large, with most carrying only 50-100 shots/bursts for their main non-energy weapons.

I agree it is rare, but there are units that do rackup 80% or better RUE-GB payloads::
-Naruni's Death Knight Assault Robot's Belly Gun (4000 round drum, 40round burst) from Mercenaries
-NG-V7's Howitzer Rail Gun (SB1o pg48, retained in SB1r): 2,000 bursts (80,000 rounds) per drum (x2)
-Shemmarian Rail Gun has a belt fed drum option with 820 rounds (ShemNation or SB1r)
-X700 Fat Boy (Triax2) has 800 rounds, 200 of those are in the gun itself

There are more than a few over 25% of the RUE-GB payload but not as well as the 80%.

Though to repeat I do support the idea that the GB actually only has 100/40 capacity as in every book pre-RUE.

glitterboy2098 wrote:and honestly, having used the 100 round limit, i never had issues running out over multiple battles. most battles didn't last more than 2-3 melees max, much less the dozen plus suggest here, and i certainly never needed to fire continuously that whole time.

I agree a small scale skirmish battle that would be typical of an RPG encounter is unlikely to be an issue and would be the norm. However we know there are the occasional large scale battles that take place like with the SoT and Minion War (WB30 pg115 mentions a 6 HOUR BATTLE when it came to Rifts Earth), and it is these types of battles I think that reload teams where geared toward.

glitterboy2098 wrote:which again, makes the idea of reloader teams pointless. especially with teams of GB's which could dispatch most opponents very quickly

Reloader Teams for those using the USA-G10's RG-14/15 perhaps, but the variants would still have a need for those types of units (QST-33/104 or Taurus's Mortars for FQ, other GB variant users might also).

One other thing to consider: pilots don’t live out of their suits the way that, say, a party might live out of a large vehicle, house, or barracks. The suit is self-contained, but not self-sustaining, at least not in the long run. Pilots are likely to have their other stuff stashed somewhere, along with extra ammunition and nutrient paste.

A more pressing question: how does one go potty in a GB suit?

Hotrod wrote:One other thing to consider: pilots don’t live out of their suits the way that, say, a party might live out of a large vehicle, house, or barracks. The suit is self-contained, but not self-sustaining, at least not in the long run. Pilots are likely to have their other stuff stashed somewhere, along with extra ammunition and nutrient paste.

A more pressing question: how does one go potty in a GB suit?

The same way astronauts do.

Per the U.S. DOD the Mach 7 railgun firing a 23 lbs, 18" long round at 100 yards away sounds like a .30-06.

If the sabot discards immediately after exiting the muzzle then the "flechettes", which should darts or they're not flechettes, should spread wildly as they're depicted as flat pieces (of metal?). If they were flechettes they would deflect less as they wouldn't tumble, collide and create lift planes that take them off in odd directions. In order to get them to consistently produce the same amount of damage the blades would have to have a programmed sabot that would discard when it got to a certain distance from the target (it would kind of explain the need for all the optics in the art).

Zer0 Kay wrote:Per the U.S. DOD the Mach 7 railgun firing a 23 lbs, 18" long round at 100 yards away sounds like a .30-06.

If the sabot discards immediately after exiting the muzzle then the "flechettes", which should darts or they're not flechettes, should spread wildly as they're depicted as flat pieces (of metal?). If they were flechettes they would deflect less as they wouldn't tumble, collide and create lift planes that take them off in odd directions. In order to get them to consistently produce the same amount of damage the blades would have to have a programmed sabot that would discard when it got to a certain distance from the target (it would kind of explain the need for all the optics in the art).

They're not flechettes.

It fires a single flechette which releases 200 slugs. (RUE p72--Don't look at me, I didn't write the thing.)

Mack wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Per the U.S. DOD the Mach 7 railgun firing a 23 lbs, 18" long round at 100 yards away sounds like a .30-06.

If the sabot discards immediately after exiting the muzzle then the "flechettes", which should darts or they're not flechettes, should spread wildly as they're depicted as flat pieces (of metal?). If they were flechettes they would deflect less as they wouldn't tumble, collide and create lift planes that take them off in odd directions. In order to get them to consistently produce the same amount of damage the blades would have to have a programmed sabot that would discard when it got to a certain distance from the target (it would kind of explain the need for all the optics in the art).

They're not flechettes.

It fires a single flechette which releases 200 slugs. (RUE p72--Don't look at me, I didn't write the thing.)

It is a problem when someone doesn't know what they're writing or talking about; clearly, the author doesn't know anything about flechettes or slugs.
It's a worse problem when they don't research something they don't know about.

ITWastrel wrote:I think the point that's being missed is, the GB needs to be able to sustain itself in the wilderness for weeks, if not longer. If they hold 100 rounds, that'll do them for a fight, maybe, but then? Restock the bot back at base. Then back out, one day later, they're back for restock.

Simple math, an operator in the armor with only 6 APM, and most pilots will have more, will use 100 rounds in less than 17 melee rounds, that's just four minutes, 15 seconds. Then the bot is out, down to using 40 round magazines, and has to resupply. this takes Many minutes and requires specialized equipment. Or, you know, they can reload by hand. lol.

This is the design that survived the end of the world? Any bot or PA with so limited an operating capacity would never have survived the dark ages. The fact that the USA-G10 is still around tells us it cannot have had so limited a field endurance.

100 rounds is more like 6-10 fights than 1. The GB is not likely alone, so some one with a vehicle could be transporting extra supplies like more ammo. The fact that unlike most PA they can be reloaded by hand means they are easier to resupply in the field.

bah. double post.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:I can always tell when someone's never actually been around a weapons' system of any type...
The point is, given the dimensions of the armor, the rounds, and looking at the belt and drum... No, it actually can't hold 1000 rounds (and 400 in the spare).

I agree the USA-G10's ammo drum and belt are CAN NOT HOLD 1,000 rounds based on the stated dimensions. I have done the math even. My assessment of the USA-G10 at 1,000 rounds was only as a WHAT-IF Hypothetical to match the "new" stats.

Now there ARE WAYS to make what Palladium presents by making changes to the lineart to make the stats work:
-changing the diameter but not the length of the shell fired to 20mm (works with the existing drums) as you suggested.
-adding a second main (basic cylindrical) ammo bin sized similar to the RG-14 Rail Gun (~98-113" long x ~13-15" diameter) can hold between ~378-576 rounds I calculate (depending on what the listed height of the USA-10 is measuring, the top of the head or the top of the stowed RG-14 in the lineart). Mounted externally opposite the RG-14 shoulder, either feeding directly into the RG-14 or the existing drum
-as above but with differing dimensions of @ 100" long x 22" diameter can hold ~1,039. a 50" long by 20" diameter can hold ~429.
-mount additional main and/or reserve ammo bins externally using the RMB capacity

Shark_Force wrote:I mean, I don't think there's a lot of situations where after firing 1,000 rounds *per glitterboy* in a squad where you're going to have targets left such that rapidly reloading is a major concern. after the amount of damage that the glitterboy has done before needing that reload, and you still haven't managed to force them to even *take cover* after all that time, let alone retreat, I would expect morale to be a serious issue...

I guess maybe if free quebec is planning to expand into xiticix territory?

Well by the math, you are supposed to miss like 35% of the time in ranged combat before factoring in bonuses (less than 8 is a miss, 7/20=35%). 5% of the time is going to be a critical.

I agree it also depends on who FQ is fighting and the size/duration of the battle:
-Xiticix have the raw numbers
-Dimensional Invasions (Minion War participants obviously but some D-Bee races are known to have the potential)
-Atlantis (they do have a colony in Canada after all, if it expands or FQ wants to push them away or some other reason that draws them into a large conflict)
-Shemarrians (unlikely unless someone expands into the others territory I don't see this happening with Archie in charge)
-the CS (political fallout)
-Archie-3's sleeper army the Republicans want to wake up (if they can be successful in doing so)
-possibly Lazlo/New Lazlo but without details on their TO&E and such its hard to say

it's more accurate than that, actually.

less than 8 is a miss but that's the result, not the roll. only a natural 1 uses the roll.

power armour combat elite (glitter boy) gives +2. laser targeting on the boom gun gives another +2. weapon systems skill (which they are guaranteed to have) gives another +1. WP heavy energy weapons (which they are guaranteed to have) gives another +1 starting at level 2 (it gets higher at level 4, 7, and beyond, but as we're talking across a group of them we'll just guesstimate that a few have +0, some have +1, some have +2, and very few have +3 or better... so we'll average it out to +1 across the squad)

so we're looking at +6 being a fairly reasonable assumption here... they hit (or at least force the enemy to dodge, presuming they're even *aware* of the projectiles coming their way from up to nearly 2 miles off travelling faster than the speed of sound so they don't even hear the shot first). they could improve that with aimed shots if they felt so inclined as well.

One thing I've seen touched on, about 1000 rounds being a short time of sustained fire, is that it requires them to fire as fast as they can, rather than artiliry or sniper picking off 1 high priority target, then finding another and taking out that target.

I doubt a GB really needs to be (or had been planed to be) in full scale direct combat for that long, for one it has the ranged advantage, meaning enemies need to be willing to rush it's position, under heavy fire that is destroying their heavy armor, a good portion of the enemy forces is going to see the battle turning against them before they are even in range, I'd expect most targets to flee the fight.

If a GB (especially one in formation) can go through 100 rounds, and the enemy is still coming in force, I doubt the GB would (or would be expected to) last long enough to fire an additional 900 rounds, so even from just a logistical cost analysis I don't see it being green lit to carry more ammo, than it's life expectancy under the conditions it would need that much ammo.

PSI-Lence wrote:I doubt a GB really needs to be (or had been planed to be) in full scale direct combat for that long, for one it has the ranged advantage, meaning enemies need to be willing to rush it's position, under heavy fire that is destroying their heavy armor, a good portion of the enemy forces is going to see the battle turning against them before they are even in range, I'd expect most targets to flee the fight.

While the GB has a range advantage there are things that can mitigate that advantage (with no defined scenario):
-Magic (teleport, stealth, force field/armor/invulnerability)
-terrain (blocking line of sight)
-speed (a 300mph flyer could close the gap in ~15seconds to come within mini-missile range, surviving that run is an issue of course, less time if you don't mind the penalties for shooting beyond effective range, slower ground platforms like the CS GB-Killer will take longer)
-the Boom Gun is not the king of range, that goes to missiles (while Mini are very common in Rifts, SRM and MRM are still a thing though I do believe MRM are more common than SRM*), and there are some gun (energy or projectile) that can match/better it in range. So with the right assets an attacker can negate or even flip the range advantage
-raw armor (there are things the BG can't kill quickly)

*

Hotrod wrote:A more pressing question: how does one go potty in a GB suit?

Or any Power Armor/EBA suit for that matter. Given the pilot can not live in the suit (that is per rules as they have to get out periodically), I would think they have a waste collection system in place OR they have to exist the unit.

A slightly disturbing thought...The 10gallon water supply and 4 week food paste supply the USA-G10 Suit is described as packing would be insufficient water to match the food paste supply (as the sole source of water). Without recycling the water supply would last ~10 days for a male (a bit longer for a female).

@Shark_Force
Yeah the 35% chance is before modifiers (I also forgot our house rule is that the 4/7 requirement is before bonuses), but the modifiers are situational based on individual mecha, pilot skills, pilot level, target movement and even range.

ShadowLogan wrote:@Shark_Force
Yeah the 35% chance is before modifiers (I also forgot our house rule is that the 4/7 requirement is before bonuses), but the modifiers are situational based on individual mecha, pilot skills, pilot level, target movement and even range.

of the +6 I counted, 2 comes from the boom gun (I think we can safely say anyone firing a boom gun is firing a boom gun), 3 comes from first level skills that are not even optional for the OCC (we *could* consider the possibility of untrained random schmucks operating the glitter boy, but that seems like it would be an odd design decision), and the last seems like a very fair average to me (the way the experience point system in palladium works, you'd have to be a pretty green recruit to not have reached level 2) and comes from another skill that is not optional for the OCC.

so I don't think +6 is particularly unreasonable.

(as for the movement speed, I find that most groups tend to ignore that modifier because it very quickly leads to things that are described as being something you *should* be able to accomplish with a reasonable chance of success to being nearly impossible... like shooting down missiles of any variety, for example).

ShadowLogan wrote:-X700 Fat Boy (Triax2) has 800 rounds, 200 of those are in the gun itself

which is actually a very good example that the 1000 round load is a mistake.. as the fatboy's description states that they expanded the ammo supply by putting bins all over its rotund body.. which indicates it was meant to be a major *increase* in ammunition (with 400 rounds per boomgun) rather than the decrease it became due to RUE. it is worth noting that the regular triax glitterboy retains the 100 round capacity of the RMB's standard GB, even after post-RUE reprintings of WB5.

also the hell's angel GB they built also only uses a 100 round bin.

and the NGR definately is the entity most likely to use their GB's in the "stand in a defensive position and fire continuiously at a swarming enemy" role. so if anyone was going to use a 1000rd bin, they would be. that they use 100rd bins (along with all the other Free Quebec GB's using boomguns, again despite post-RUE reprints with stealth updates) really indicates the 1000rd bin on the USA-G10 is a goof.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:-X700 Fat Boy (Triax2) has 800 rounds, 200 of those are in the gun itself

which is actually a very good example that the 1000 round load is a mistake.. as the fatboy's description states that they expanded the ammo supply by putting bins all over its rotund body.. which indicates it was meant to be a major *increase* in ammunition (with 400 rounds per boomgun) rather than the decrease it became due to RUE. it is worth noting that the regular triax glitterboy retains the 100 round capacity of the RMB's standard GB, even after post-RUE reprintings of WB5.

also the hell's angel GB they built also only uses a 100 round bin.

and the NGR definately is the entity most likely to use their GB's in the "stand in a defensive position and fire continuiously at a swarming enemy" role. so if anyone was going to use a 1000rd bin, they would be. that they use 100rd bins (along with all the other Free Quebec GB's using boomguns, again despite post-RUE reprints with stealth updates) really indicates the 1000rd bin on the USA-G10 is a goof.

You got me, move my checkmark to team 100/40.

Also, checked my blue book, and yeah, 100/40.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Hotrod wrote:A more pressing question: how does one go potty in a GB suit?

Or any Power Armor/EBA suit for that matter. Given the pilot can not live in the suit (that is per rules as they have to get out periodically), I would think they have a waste collection system in place OR they have to exit the unit.

A slightly disturbing thought...The 10gallon water supply and 4 week food paste supply the USA-G10 Suit is described as packing would be insufficient water to match the food paste supply (as the sole source of water). Without recycling the water supply would last ~10 days for a male (a bit longer for a female.

NASA put out a "Space Poop" design challenge a few years back to figure out how to keep their astronauts alive and healthy in a suit for days at a time. Poop and pee on the skin does some really nasty things to you after a few hours; it sounds like a silly problem, but it can create some deadly serious problems as the skin breaks down and poop starts getting into the bloodstream. I actually put together an entry that didn't win. Mildly gross details below.


Given that the GB is designed to be worn for long periods, it makes sense that the pilot suit would have some systems for dealing with poop and pee, and they would have to integrate into the armor, either for waste dumps or for recycling (or both).

There are some products that can reduce the body's water content requirement for short periods by reducing the water content of the bowels. As far as I know, it's only been tested for a few hours at a time, but it could help some, especially if that's part of the nutrient paste. Otherwise, yeah, I suppose the suit would have to have some kind of water purification processing to reclaim moisture from human waste.

Similarly, the pilot suit would have to find a way to evaporate moisture off the pilot's skin. Perhaps the pilot suit is something akin to the stillsuits of Dune that reclaim body moisture? That would actually make a lot more sense than wearing a stillsuit on Dune (In real life, a still suit in a hot environment would cook all the Fremen like a crock pot).

Perhaps I'm over-thinking this.