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Reading over the OCC and looking at the difference between original and RUE. In the RUE they took away a ton of skills to give you three "abilities" that aren't that great. Also, both versions restrict acrobatics... why? I can understand them restricting gymnastics, but restricting acrobatics is just dumb. There are a ton of things that I can see them doing that would require acrobatics.
The Robot Pilot can get it though, which makes total sense; a guy riding in a giant robot can totally use acrobatics, but a guy running through the wild woods, nope, no possible way he could ever need it.

HarleeKnight wrote:Reading over the OCC and looking at the difference between original and RUE. In the RUE they took away a ton of skills to give you three "abilities" that aren't that great.

Yeah, Trail Blazing doesn't seem like something that should count as a special ability. I'd call it barely a skill. AND they only get it at 20% to start, which isn't exactly impressive.
Cross-Country Pacing is pretty decent, but unlikely to come up very often unless the Scout is running around solo without the rest of the party.
Cartography isn't bad. There are plenty of times where making a map could come in useful.

No idea why they'd get rid of a bunch of skills.
That's weird.

Also, both versions restrict acrobatics... why? I can understand them restricting gymnastics, but restricting acrobatics is just dumb. There are a ton of things that I can see them doing that would require acrobatics.

Me too.
Palladium appears to want Acrobatics to be extra special. Few classes get it, IIRC.

The Robot Pilot can get it though, which makes total sense; a guy riding in a giant robot can totally use acrobatics, but a guy running through the wild woods, nope, no possible way he could ever need it.

HarleeKnight wrote:Reading over the OCC and looking at the difference between original and RUE. In the RUE they took away a ton of skills to give you three "abilities" that aren't that great. Also, both versions restrict acrobatics... why? I can understand them restricting gymnastics, but restricting acrobatics is just dumb. There are a ton of things that I can see them doing that would require acrobatics.
The Robot Pilot can get it though, which makes total sense; a guy riding in a giant robot can totally use acrobatics, but a guy running through the wild woods, nope, no possible way he could ever need it.

As someone who's original Rifts character was a Wilderness Scout yeah this was an issue when I updated him to RUE.

In the WS description in RMB it even had a section about being a mercenary scout, which is why they could use power armor and the like but the RUE WS is really a step down. There are also a lot of skills that a Wilderness Scout, as described in RUE, should be able to take but can't take like Camouflage.

RMB Wilderness Scout: has 19 OCC skills, only bonuses are +3D6x10 to SDC & +1D4 to PE, gets 10 Related skills @ 1st level (3 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 6 by 12th level, & 8 Secondary skills. Didn't have access to Acrobatics, but does have access to Power Armor/Robot Piloting. Total of 43 skills by 12th level.

RUE Wilderness Scout: has 21 OCC skills plus those 3 "special" extra skills, gets the +3D6x10 to SDC & bonus to PE, plus a +1D4 bonus to PS, bonuses to save vs. Horror Factor, poison/disease, & coma/death, bonus to roll with punch, gets 9 Elective skills (2 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 5 by 14th level, starts with 4 Secondary skills & gets another 4 by 13th level. Still no access to Acrobatics, but loses access to PIloting RPA & other "large, noisy vehicles"...mainly because they embody in some ways the post-apocalyptic vision of the Ranger (they're more comfortable out in the wild than in urban areas, & used to sneaking around quietly). Total of 46 skills by 14th level (they hit 43 skills by 9th level).

Seems like the RUE version actually gets more skills as well as some handy bonuses...they're just a little more focused than they were before.

green.nova343 wrote:RMB Wilderness Scout: has 19 OCC skills, only bonuses are +3D6x10 to SDC & +1D4 to PE, gets 10 Related skills @ 1st level (3 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 6 by 12th level, & 8 Secondary skills. Didn't have access to Acrobatics, but does have access to Power Armor/Robot Piloting. Total of 43 skills by 12th level.

RUE Wilderness Scout: has 21 OCC skills plus those 3 "special" extra skills, gets the +3D6x10 to SDC & bonus to PE, plus a +1D4 bonus to PS, bonuses to save vs. Horror Factor, poison/disease, & coma/death, bonus to roll with punch, gets 9 Elective skills (2 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 5 by 14th level, starts with 4 Secondary skills & gets another 4 by 13th level. Still no access to Acrobatics, but loses access to PIloting RPA & other "large, noisy vehicles"...mainly because they embody in some ways the post-apocalyptic vision of the Ranger (they're more comfortable out in the wild than in urban areas, & used to sneaking around quietly). Total of 46 skills by 14th level (they hit 43 skills by 9th level).

Seems like the RUE version actually gets more skills as well as some handy bonuses...they're just a little more focused than they were before.

Nice breakdown!

green.nova343 wrote:RMB Wilderness Scout: has 19 OCC skills, only bonuses are +3D6x10 to SDC & +1D4 to PE, gets 10 Related skills @ 1st level (3 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 6 by 12th level, & 8 Secondary skills. Didn't have access to Acrobatics, but does have access to Power Armor/Robot Piloting. Total of 43 skills by 12th level.

RUE Wilderness Scout: has 21 OCC skills plus those 3 "special" extra skills, gets the +3D6x10 to SDC & bonus to PE, plus a +1D4 bonus to PS, bonuses to save vs. Horror Factor, poison/disease, & coma/death, bonus to roll with punch, gets 9 Elective skills (2 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 5 by 14th level, starts with 4 Secondary skills & gets another 4 by 13th level. Still no access to Acrobatics, but loses access to PIloting RPA & other "large, noisy vehicles"...mainly because they embody in some ways the post-apocalyptic vision of the Ranger (they're more comfortable out in the wild than in urban areas, & used to sneaking around quietly). Total of 46 skills by 14th level (they hit 43 skills by 9th level).

Seems like the RUE version actually gets more skills as well as some handy bonuses...they're just a little more focused than they were before.

Nice breakdown, thank you. For some reason, when I counted them, I had the skill amounts wrong. I'd still like to know why a Robot Pilot gets access to acrobat but the wilderness scout doesn't.

HarleeKnight wrote: I'd still like to know why a Robot Pilot gets access to acrobat but the wilderness scout doesn't.

That's a really good question. Personally, I've never been so impressed by Acrobatics that I would think it needs to be a super rare skill. It's got some reasonably good bonuses, but nothing game breaking.

As far as robot pilots go? No idea. I've always figured that big robots are pretty fast and nimble unless specifically said to be otherwise, but not so much that acrobatic skills would be needed to get the most out of them.

There's a certain degree of comedy to imagining some of the bigguns doing acrobatic maneuvers, but nothing I'd want to deal with in a reasonably serious game.

green.nova343 wrote:RMB Wilderness Scout: has 19 OCC skills, only bonuses are +3D6x10 to SDC & +1D4 to PE, gets 10 Related skills @ 1st level (3 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 6 by 12th level, & 8 Secondary skills. Didn't have access to Acrobatics, but does have access to Power Armor/Robot Piloting. Total of 43 skills by 12th level.

RUE Wilderness Scout: has 21 OCC skills plus those 3 "special" extra skills, gets the +3D6x10 to SDC & bonus to PE, plus a +1D4 bonus to PS, bonuses to save vs. Horror Factor, poison/disease, & coma/death, bonus to roll with punch, gets 9 Elective skills (2 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 5 by 14th level, starts with 4 Secondary skills & gets another 4 by 13th level. Still no access to Acrobatics, but loses access to PIloting RPA & other "large, noisy vehicles"...mainly because they embody in some ways the post-apocalyptic vision of the Ranger (they're more comfortable out in the wild than in urban areas, & used to sneaking around quietly). Total of 46 skills by 14th level (they hit 43 skills by 9th level).

Seems like the RUE version actually gets more skills as well as some handy bonuses...they're just a little more focused than they were before.

Very good breakdown, but I would use the word limited. The RMB WS could be a sort of back woods trapper or a sort of mercenary scout or a mix of both. Now its just the trapper. I frequently had people run WSs from RMB because while they did not start with it they could use a small power armor (terrain hopper was a favorite) and have some decent military skills. I have run 6 or so groups since RUE came out and not one WS. Lots of operators which have been focused and expanded, even more rogue scientists and even body docs. The WS is so narrow now that most players seem to stir clear. I mean they can't take acrobatics or camouflage, why? I understand the piloting restrictions but camo should almost be an OCC skill.

The City Rat is similar. I saw 7 or 8 people run city rats from RMB, including 2 players that ran them in a giant Phase World campaign that I ran. But, no espionage or military skills, severely limited piloting, no pilot related there is just no interest anymore.

Great OCCs have a hook and some flexibility, that's why players like them. RMB had some flexibility with almost all OCCs but RUE really did narrow the field a lot and in some cases I think too much. But that's just me.

Warshield73 wrote:

green.nova343 wrote:RMB Wilderness Scout: has 19 OCC skills, only bonuses are +3D6x10 to SDC & +1D4 to PE, gets 10 Related skills @ 1st level (3 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 6 by 12th level, & 8 Secondary skills. Didn't have access to Acrobatics, but does have access to Power Armor/Robot Piloting. Total of 43 skills by 12th level.

RUE Wilderness Scout: has 21 OCC skills plus those 3 "special" extra skills, gets the +3D6x10 to SDC & bonus to PE, plus a +1D4 bonus to PS, bonuses to save vs. Horror Factor, poison/disease, & coma/death, bonus to roll with punch, gets 9 Elective skills (2 Physical, 1 Wilderness, 6 other) plus another 5 by 14th level, starts with 4 Secondary skills & gets another 4 by 13th level. Still no access to Acrobatics, but loses access to PIloting RPA & other "large, noisy vehicles"...mainly because they embody in some ways the post-apocalyptic vision of the Ranger (they're more comfortable out in the wild than in urban areas, & used to sneaking around quietly). Total of 46 skills by 14th level (they hit 43 skills by 9th level).

Seems like the RUE version actually gets more skills as well as some handy bonuses...they're just a little more focused than they were before.

Very good breakdown, but I would use the word limited. The RMB WS could be a sort of back woods trapper or a sort of mercenary scout or a mix of both. Now its just the trapper. I frequently had people run WSs from RMB because while they did not start with it they could use a small power armor (terrain hopper was a favorite) and have some decent military skills. I have run 6 or so groups since RUE came out and not one WS. Lots of operators which have been focused and expanded, even more rogue scientists and even body docs. The WS is so narrow now that most players seem to stir clear. I mean they can't take acrobatics or camouflage, why? I understand the piloting restrictions but camo should almost be an OCC skill.

The City Rat is similar. I saw 7 or 8 people run city rats from RMB, including 2 players that ran them in a giant Phase World campaign that I ran. But, no espionage or military skills, severely limited piloting, no pilot related there is just no interest anymore.

Great OCCs have a hook and some flexibility, that's why players like them. RMB had some flexibility with almost all OCCs but RUE really did narrow the field a lot and in some cases I think too much. But that's just me.

It looks like the changes in the City Rat actually started with the Bionics Sourcebook, where they introduced both the sub-classes of City Rat (essentially even more specialized versions of the base OCC) & introduced the concept that City Rat was more than an O.C.C. but a way of life...one that tended to have a short lifespan (sometimes literally for the character).

Although the base City Rat in Bionics Sourcebook was the RMB version, all of the sub-classes introduced the block on taking any RPA skills. But it does make sense to some extent: City Rats are described as being urbanites, thriving in the big cities of the NGR & Japan, & especially within the CS arcologies. But in those areas, access to heavy military hardware (and yeah, I'd consider even a "light" PA suit like the Flying Titan to be military-grade hardware) is forbidden. Sure, City Rats like living on the edge & regularly crossing over the "legal vs. illegal" lines...but there're crimes that get you sent to prison & there're crimes that get you shot on sight ("wanted dead or alive, preferred dead"). The somewhat low life expectancy supposedly leads to the majority of those that reach their mid-30s switching to a different O.C.C. & getting out of the "Rat Life". And I noticed in the RMB fluff on the Wilderness Scout that it says they avoid PA suits, giant robots, & other "noisy" vehicles whenever possible. And neither one comes with a PA suit or robot vehicle option as a starter vehicle, plus they don't have the cash to buy one starting off either; their starting vehicles are based on their O.C.C. Piloting skills.

Which is why, whether using RMB or RUE, if your players want to start off with an RPA Elite type character, they should pick Headhunter, Glitter Boy Pilot, CS SAMAS Pilot, or something similar. Those are the O.C.C.s with real military-style or paramilitary-style training, so they're the best options for RPA pilots in a group. Not to mention those O.C.C.s get better Piloting skill bonuses, & better access to Military skills.

snip

Which is why, whether using RMB or RUE, if your players want to start off with an RPA Elite type character, they should pick Headhunter, Glitter Boy Pilot, CS SAMAS Pilot, or something similar. Those are the O.C.C.s with real military-style or paramilitary-style training, so they're the best options for RPA pilots in a group. Not to mention those O.C.C.s get better Piloting skill bonuses, & better access to Military skills.[/quote]


I think the classes, especially special forces introduced in the mercenary handbook also have a very impressive skill selection base., so do the classes that were modified for the second Triax / NGR book.

HarleeKnight wrote:Reading over the OCC and looking at the difference between original and RUE. In the RUE they took away a ton of skills to give you three "abilities" that aren't that great. Also, both versions restrict acrobatics... why? I can understand them restricting gymnastics, but restricting acrobatics is just dumb. There are a ton of things that I can see them doing that would require acrobatics.
The Robot Pilot can get it though, which makes total sense; a guy riding in a giant robot can totally use acrobatics, but a guy running through the wild woods, nope, no possible way he could ever need it.

I take away the "none" restriction when they pick up their next set of skills, generally at 3rd to 4th level for most OCCs. Unless a character is meant to be autistic, I don't see any reason for it.

I think it is to do with PP bonuses. PP is such an important ability in hand to hand combat that it was always one of the first choices IF available ... back in the TMNT / Robotech days. I think it is a hang-over from that time.

The secondary skill list has always bothered me for this reason - they are things you learn BEFORE your OCC, like in high school or growing up? Yet: No cowboy skills, no gymnastics / acrobatics, no spelunking? My guess is the last time 90% of the population did gymnastics was AT school.

(not to mention some OCCs/RCCs getting more Secondary skills as they level.)

hup7 wrote:I think it is to do with PP bonuses. PP is such an important ability in hand to hand combat that it was always one of the first choices IF available ... back in the TMNT / Robotech days. I think it is a hang-over from that time.

The secondary skill list has always bothered me for this reason - they are things you learn BEFORE your OCC, like in high school or growing up? Yet: No cowboy skills, no gymnastics / acrobatics, no spelunking? My guess is the last time 90% of the population did gymnastics was AT school.

(not to mention some OCCs/RCCs getting more Secondary skills as they level.)

People learn lots of things during their life-times. Personally, I always thought the Secondary skills should be completely unrestricted.

Fenris2020 wrote:

hup7 wrote:I think it is to do with PP bonuses. PP is such an important ability in hand to hand combat that it was always one of the first choices IF available ... back in the TMNT / Robotech days. I think it is a hang-over from that time.

The secondary skill list has always bothered me for this reason - they are things you learn BEFORE your OCC, like in high school or growing up? Yet: No cowboy skills, no gymnastics / acrobatics, no spelunking? My guess is the last time 90% of the population did gymnastics was AT school.

(not to mention some OCCs/RCCs getting more Secondary skills as they level.)

People learn lots of things during their life-times. Personally, I always thought the Secondary skills should be completely unrestricted.

That's actually how I would house rule it if I were running again; secondary skills should be open to ANY skill (as long as prerequisites are met).

So... anyone have any idea why Acrobatics is treated like it's an ultimate skill?

MadGreenSon wrote:So... anyone have any idea why Acrobatics is treated like it's an ultimate skill?

Gymnastics and Acrobatics are--because of their versatility and utility, as well as their PP bonuses--some of THE best and most sought-after physical skills.
And Acrobatics is the better of the two.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:So... anyone have any idea why Acrobatics is treated like it's an ultimate skill?

Gymnastics and Acrobatics are--because of their versatility and utility, as well as their PP bonuses--some of THE best and most sought-after physical skills.
And Acrobatics is the better of the two.

Eh. That's never been the case in my games. They're nice, but hardly worth getting excited over compared to stuff like magic, psionics, or the better class abilities.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:So... anyone have any idea why Acrobatics is treated like it's an ultimate skill?

Gymnastics and Acrobatics are--because of their versatility and utility, as well as their PP bonuses--some of THE best and most sought-after physical skills.
And Acrobatics is the better of the two.

Eh. That's never been the case in my games. They're nice, but hardly worth getting excited over compared to stuff like magic, psionics, or the better class abilities.

They take up a skill slot, not a spell slot, psionics slot, etc.
So those aren't the competition; other skills are.

green.nova343 wrote: 'snip'
Which is why, whether using RMB or RUE, if your players want to start off with an RPA Elite type character, they should pick Headhunter, Glitter Boy Pilot, CS SAMAS Pilot, or something similar. Those are the O.C.C.s with real military-style or paramilitary-style training, so they're the best options for RPA pilots in a group. Not to mention those O.C.C.s get better Piloting skill bonuses, & better access to Military skills.

For a lot of players its not about having the best pilot it is about making a character with some versatility. The OCCs that I have found that are the most popular tend to be the most versatile. I have had way more Cyber knights and GBs than I have Robot Pilots and way more Ley Line Walkers than all other magic OCCs combined except Temporal Warriors which I have seen about 6 or 7 of. A mage, with combat and lore skills is like a magnet or a hook.

The Operator is a tech who can pilot anything they want. Not great combat but super versatile. Again I have seen more Operators than Robot Pilots because a lot of players want to do something technical but they still want to be able to do something in combat.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:So... anyone have any idea why Acrobatics is treated like it's an ultimate skill?

Gymnastics and Acrobatics are--because of their versatility and utility, as well as their PP bonuses--some of THE best and most sought-after physical skills.
And Acrobatics is the better of the two.

Eh. That's never been the case in my games. They're nice, but hardly worth getting excited over compared to stuff like magic, psionics, or the better class abilities.

They take up a skill slot, not a spell slot, psionics slot, etc.
So those aren't the competition; other skills are.

In every PB game I have ever run (including TMNT, HU, and Robotech 1e) most players try to take Gymnastics and in games with Acrobatics they would take either or. The bonuses have really never been the draw it is usually the sub skills like sense of balance that make people want one of those two skills.

I have always assumed that when they say no acrobatics or no gymnastics what they are really trying to do is prevent a player from taking both, which I have seen only 2 or 3 players do mostly in HU.

Killer Cyborg wrote:They take up a skill slot, not a spell slot, psionics slot, etc.
So those aren't the competition; other skills are.

Skills slots are a less plentiful resource than spells or psionics most of the time. I will say that at least Acrobatics doesn't make you write down "Work Parallel Bars and Rings" which is one skill I've never seen or even heard of being used.

Maybe if a game had a gymnastics competition?

Sense of Balance is also a skill that you pretty much can't have feature much because Acrobatics is so hard to come by, so I only ever have it come up if an Acrobat is being... Acrobatic.

Also, I've not seen any use of Back Flip that wasn't just showing off.

MadGreenSon wrote:I will say that at least Acrobatics doesn't make you write down "Work Parallel Bars and Rings" which is one skill I've never seen or even heard of being used.

Sense of Balance is also a skill that you pretty much can't have feature much because Acrobatics is so hard to come by, so I only ever have it come up if an Acrobat is being... Acrobatic.

Also, I've not seen any use of Back Flip that wasn't just showing off.

I had a character "work vertical pole" but pretty sure that is another discussion.

I have used the "rings" skill to swing through an industrial area that had chains hanging from the ceiling, to great advantage.

Sense of balance is actually called for by some spells, attacks and abilities. I think it is a standard combat defence in some books. (RUE p344 avoiding knock-down from Body Tackle)

Same with Backflip; it is actually defensive combat manoeuvre mentioned to change attacker or change distance? (I'll find the book reference - actually it is in RUE p344 Back Flip: Escape(move and initiative), Back Flip: Attack(rear attack) and Back Flip(dodge))

The ability to prowl, climb, jump and more makes these two skills pretty much a skill package.

hup7 wrote:
I had a character "work vertical pole" but pretty sure that is another discussion.

Well... I guess you can't be out on adventures all the time and bills still gotta be paid...

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:They take up a skill slot, not a spell slot, psionics slot, etc.
So those aren't the competition; other skills are.

Skills slots are a less plentiful resource than spells or psionics most of the time. I will say that at least Acrobatics doesn't make you write down "Work Parallel Bars and Rings" which is one skill I've never seen or even heard of being used.

We had a juicer use it when jumping up to grab the gun on a Spider Skull Walker, then swinging up from there to land on the top of its head.

Sense of Balance is also a skill that you pretty much can't have feature much because Acrobatics is so hard to come by, so I only ever have it come up if an Acrobat is being... Acrobatic.

IIRC, there are rules for it being used to resist Knockdown attacks, somewhere.

Also, I've not seen any use of Back Flip that wasn't just showing off.

Back Flip is more useful in Ninjas & Superspies, where melee combat distances matter; you can use it to get away from close melee attacks.
Outside of that and just showing off?
Yeah, can't think of a real use.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
We had a juicer use it when jumping up to grab the gun on a Spider Skull Walker, then swinging up from there to land on the top of its head.

I would love to see something like that animated.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Back Flip is more useful in Ninjas & Superspies, where melee combat distances matter; you can use it to get away from close melee attacks.
Outside of that and just showing off?
Yeah, can't think of a real use.

There's always that hilarious anecdote from... I think one of the Rifters? About a gaming group that spent significant amounts of time per game session backflipping to get exp for "successful skill use".

You know where you could really get a lot of use out of Gymnastics and Acrobatics? If your PCs are running or working out of a traveling show. That remains my favorite "build an organization"

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:They take up a skill slot, not a spell slot, psionics slot, etc.
So those aren't the competition; other skills are.

Skills slots are a less plentiful resource than spells or psionics most of the time. I will say that at least Acrobatics doesn't make you write down "Work Parallel Bars and Rings" which is one skill I've never seen or even heard of being used.

We had a juicer use it when jumping up to grab the gun on a Spider Skull Walker, then swinging up from there to land on the top of its head.

Sense of Balance is also a skill that you pretty much can't have feature much because Acrobatics is so hard to come by, so I only ever have it come up if an Acrobat is being... Acrobatic.

IIRC, there are rules for it being used to resist Knockdown attacks, somewhere.

Also, I've not seen any use of Back Flip that wasn't just showing off.

Back Flip is more useful in Ninjas & Superspies, where melee combat distances matter; you can use it to get away from close melee attacks.
Outside of that and just showing off?
Yeah, can't think of a real use.

Of all of these skills sense of balance is probably used the most. Even in power armor if the character is in a structure or vehicle that is hit with a big enough explosion they need it to stay on their feet.

I have had a few characters combine back flip with their dodge to get distance from a melee battle as well.

All in all with the bonuses and the sub-skills Gymnastics/Acrobatics are probably the second most popular physical skills just after Boxing.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:We had a juicer use it when jumping up to grab the gun on a Spider Skull Walker, then swinging up from there to land on the top of its head.

I would love to see something like that animated.

There are a lot of things in Rifts that I would like to see animated and this would make my top 20.